the beginning of learning 学习入门
K: Do you know what is happening in the world? - the hijacking, the deception, outright lying, revolt, and the chaos and the misery in India. When you read about it, what does it mean to you? Or don't you read about it - are you not aware of what is happening?
克里希那穆提：在这个世界上，你知道正在发生什么吗？ —— 劫持、欺骗、彻头彻尾的谎言、反抗以及混乱和苦难。 当你阅读到它，它对你意味着什么？ 或者你没有去读它 —— 你没有觉察到在发生什么吗？
Q: A lot of it is very sad.
发问者：很多的事情都非常令人悲伤。
K: What do you mean by that word?
克里希那穆提：那个词是什么意思？
Q: Some people are dominating others and hurting lots of people.
发问者：某些人在支配他人和伤害人们。
K: But that has been going on for centuries, hasn't it? —— all history is that. What do you think of it?
克里希那穆提：但是，那已经持续了几个世纪，不是吗？ —— 所有的历史都是那样。你怎么看待它？
Q: It doesn't really affect me.
发问者：它并没有真正地影响我。
K: Why do you say it doesn't affect you?
克里希那穆提：你为什么说它没有影响你？
Q: I see people getting killed on television. I look at it and I don't realize that those are people getting killed.
发问者：我在电视上看到人们被杀死。 我看它，我没有意识到那些人正在被杀。
K: What part do you play in all that?
克里希那穆提：在那一切中，你在扮演什么角色？
Q: I'm not part of it.
发问者：我不是其中的一部分。
K: Then what is your relationship to it? Is it something that is happening "over there", in Jordan, in America?
克里希那穆提：那么，你跟它有什么关联？ 它是发生在约旦、美国、“在那边”的事情吗？
Q: Sometimes it hits home and I can feel what those people are feeling.
发问者：有时它击中家，我能感觉到那些人的感受。
K: Do you feel that one must change all this, or that you can't do anything about it? What is your relationship to the world? Is it an awareness of the extraordinary things that are going on technologically and the appalling inefficiency of man to meet that technological advance? What is your relationship to the confusion that man is producing all round the world?
克里希那穆提：你是否觉得必须改变这一切，或者你对此无能为力？ 你与这个世界有什么关系？ 你是觉察到，在技术上正发生的非凡事情 以及人在面对技术的进步时，所表现出的惊人的低能？ 你与人类在世界各地所制造的困惑有什么关联？
Q: As long as we are confused we are contributing to the confusion.
发问者：只要我们感到困惑，我们就在助长这种混乱。
K: I understand that, but what do you feel about it? What is your innermost response to all this?
克里希那穆提：我明白，但是，你对此有何感受？对这一切，你内心深处的回响是什么？
Q: I feel frustrated and angry that all this is happening. I have reactions to it; I see things which are wrong and I get hostile.
发问者：对这正在发生的一切，我感到沮丧和愤怒。 我对此的反应是；我看到那些错误的东西，我很反感。
K: And then what? You see, when you leave here, go on to university or through college, what part are you going to play in it all? Will you just fit into the machinery of it? What's going to become of you in relation to the world? Or are you not interested in that at present? You may say, "I'm too young to consider all this, I'll have a good time and enjoy life while I can; later on I will think about it." Or do you feel that this is a preparation, a commencement of what it is going to be when you grow older? One can revolt now and take drugs or not, this or that - but when you are twenty or twenty-five you will get married. Will you fit into all this? If you don't fit in, what are you going to do? If you are antagonistic to the system, to what is happening - not hypocritical but actually in revolt - can you pretend that you don't really feel the appallingness of all this? What is your response?
克里希那穆提：然后呢？你看，当你离开这里，上完大学或院校， 在这个世界上，你会扮演什么角色？你只是去适应它的机制吗？ 你与世界的关系会是什么样的？或者，你目前对此不感兴趣？ 你可能会说：“我还太年轻，没必要考虑这一切，我在这儿会有一段美好的时光，享受生命，以后我会考虑这些。” 或者，你认为你在这里，是为长大之后的生活所做的一种准备和开端？ 一个人现在就可以反抗、拒绝或吸毒、做这个或那个 —— 但是，当你二十岁或二十五岁的时候，你会结婚。 你会适应这一切吗？如果你不适应，你打算怎么办？ 如果你对社会的制度有敌意，那会发生什么 —— 不是虚伪的、而是真正的反抗 —— 你真地可以假装自己没有感受到这一切的可怕吗？你的回应是什么？
Don't you consider what you are going to be at all? Get married and settle down? - if that is the end result, then what is education? Is it to help you to get settled down in life in this system? I have heard many students in India, when asked, "What are you going to do?" reply, "Oh, Sir, my father wants me to be an engineer, my father wishes me to be a doctor, we need doctors. I want to help India through becoming an efficient engineer." The majority of them think in terms of a professional career, they want to help the backward country, do social work. Is that what you are all going to do? Are you all asleep?
你难道没有考虑过吗，你到底会成为什么样的人？结婚之后就定居下来吗？ —— 如果那是最终结果，那么，什么是教育？ 是为了帮助你在这个系统中安顿下来吗？ 在印度，我听到很多学生被问到“你打算做什么？” 他们回答说：“哦，先生，我父亲希望我成为一名工程师，我父亲希望我成为一名医生，我们需要医生。 我想通过成为一名高效的工程师来帮助印度。” 他们中的大多数人从职业的角度来考虑，他们想帮助这个落后的国家，做社会工作。 那是你们都要做的吗？你们都睡了吗？
I think that's where the sadness lies, not in what the world is.
我想，那就是悲哀所在，而不在于这个世界。
The world is that way, deceptive, the deceiving politicians, the money-minded - all that. If you are not properly educated you'll just slip into it. So what do you think is education? Is it to help you to fit into the mechanism of the present order, or disorder, of things or do you think it should be something else? If it is something else, what is it that you want?
这个世界就那样，虚伪、欺诈的政客们，金融寡头 —— 所有那一切。 如果你没有受过恰当的教育，你就会滑入其中。那么，你觉得什么是教育？ 它是为了帮助你适应当前的有序或无序的社会体系吗， 或者，你觉得它应该是别的某种东西？ 如果是别的某种东西，那么，你想要什么样的教育？
Q: It's just a learning process.
发问者：它只是一个学习过程。
K: What do you mean by learning?
克里希那穆提：你所说的“学习”是什么意思？
Q: Finding out about things around you and in you.
发问者：找出你周围的，以及你内在的事物。
K: Are you doing it?
克里希那穆提：你在做吗？
Q: Yes.
发问者：是的。
K: Do you really want to learn?
克里希那穆提：你真的想学习吗？
Q: Yes, I do.
发问者：是的，我是认真的。
K: Be terribly serious - don't let's talk easily, glibly. Do you know what it means to learn?
克里希那穆提：要非常严肃 —— 不要轻易地、随口地说。你知道它意味着什么吗？
Q: To find out as much as one can about whatever it is - about everything.
发问者：尽可能多地去发现它是什么 —— 每一件事物。
K: Is that what you mean by "learn"? - to find out? You can pick up an encyclopaedia; you can find out everything there.
克里希那穆提：那就是你所说的“学习”吗？—— 去发现吗？ 你可以拿起一本百科全书；你可以在那里找到一切。
Q: That only encompasses the theoretical side.
发问者：那里面只有理论上的东西。
K: Then what do you mean by learning?
克里希那穆提：那么，你说的学习是什么意思？
Q: Finding out something and being able to deal with it, cope with it, and possibly even use it.
发问者：找出某样东西并能够处理它、应对它，进而可能使用它。
K: We were talking the other day about cooperation, intelligence and sex. [See Chapter 5] We discussed in principle what cooperation is, what it means to cooperate, to work together, to do things together. How are you going to learn about it - is it just a theory? A small community is living here at Brockwood. Any civilized man - civilised in the sense of cultured, thoughtful, intelligent - must cooperate, life demands cooperation - not with what you like, but the spirit of cooperation. You said, "I want to learn about cooperation." Now how do you learn about it? Because in any cultured society there must be cooperation; it can't exist otherwise. How are you going to learn about it?
克里希那穆提：前几天我们在谈论合作、智慧和性。 [参见第5章] 从原则上，我们讨论了合作是什么，合作意味着一起工作，一起做事。 你将如何学习它 —— 它只是一个理论吗？ 一群人住在这个小社区里。每一个文明的人 —— 这里的文明是指有文化、有思想、有智慧 —— 必须合作，生活需要合作 —— 与你的喜好无关，而是这种合作精神。 你说，“我想学习合作。” 现在你如何学习它？ 因为在任何一个文明的社会中，都必须有合作；否则它不可能存在。 你将如何学习它？
Q: In discussing it. There is some learning involved in that.
发问者：在对它的讨论中。其中就涉及到某些学习。
K: I am asking what do you mean by learning about cooperation? We both agree, life cannot go on if there is no cooperation. Where do I begin?
克里希那穆提：我问你，学习合作是什么意思？ 我们都同意，如果没有合作，生命就不能继续。我从哪里开始？
Q: By cooperating.
发问者：通过合作。
K: What do you mean by that word cooperation, how do you cooperate, with whom, why? Where do I learn it?
克里希那穆提：‘合作’这个词是什么意思， 你如何合作，与谁合作，为什么？我在哪里学习它？
Q: By doing it.
发问者：去做。
K: What do you mean by doing it - investigate, learn.
克里希那穆提：什么是“去做” —— 调查、学习？
Q: Find out why you want to cooperate.
发问者：找出你想要合作的原因。
K: So are you going to learn? Is the process of learning asking this question? And also, do you have the spirit of cooperation, the feeling? Do you really, deeply want to cooperate? Don't you have to begin there? - to learn whether you really, deep down, want to cooperate. Because if you don't know what it means, you will never know what it means not to cooperate. If the State says, "Go and kill," unless you know what cooperation is, how do you know when not to cooperate?
克里希那穆提：因此，你要进去学习吗？学习的过程就是问这个问题吗？ 还有，你有这种合作的精神和这种感觉吗？ 你真的想要深入地合作吗？你必须从这里开始，难道不是吗？ —— 去学习您是否真地在内心深处想要合作。 因为，如果你不知道它的意思，你就永远不会知道什么是不合作。 如果这个国家说“上去杀”， 除非你知道合作是什么，否则，你怎么知道什么时候不合作？
Now tell me, please, how are you going to find out for yourself whether you have the spirit of cooperation - not with me, or about something - but the feeling of it. Isn't that the beginning of learning about cooperation? Where do you begin to learn - from a book? If you say, "Learning begins with a book", then you have the encyclopaedias, a vast knowledge accumulated in pages or in the brain of a teacher, but is that where you begin to learn? For instance, either I believe in an idea, and therefore I want you and others to cooperate with me in carrying out that idea, which is generally called cooperation; because we both believe in that idea, in a principle, in a system. Or, we have the feeling of cooperation - not about what and with whom, but the feeling. Do you deeply understand the meaning of that word? I mean not only working together but feeling together that certain things must be done - the feeling first, and the action.
现在，请告诉我，你将如何亲自发现你是否有合作精神 —— 不是与我合作，或者争对某个事物 —— 而是一种合作的感觉。 那不就是学习合作的开始吗？ 你从哪里开始学习 —— 从一本书吗？ 如果你说，“学习是从一本书开始的”， 那么，你有百科全书，大量的知识积累在书本上或老师的大脑中， 但是，那是你学习的起点吗？ 例如，要么我相信一个想法，因此我希望您和其他人与我合作实现该想法， 这就是通常所说的合作；因为我们都相信这个想法，相信一个原则，相信一个系统。 或者，我们有合作的感觉 —— 不是关于某个事物和某个人，而是这种感觉。 你深刻地理解那个词的意思吗？ 我的意思是指：不仅要一起工作， 而且要一起感觉到某些事情必须完成 —— 先有这种感觉和这种行为。
When you say you want to learn in a community, in a school like this, there is a problem. There are older people and the younger generation, the teacher and the students and others coming here; there must be a way to live happily, intelligently, actively, with a great deal of energy. One must have this feeling, otherwise we'll all pull in different directions. So I want to learn and my first enquiry in learning is to find out if I really want to cooperate, if I really have the feeling of it. Have you? If you don't have it find out why. This extraordinary quality, this feeling for cooperation, building together, doing things together, this is what has built this world.
当你说，你想在社区、在这样的学校学习时，就有一个问题。 这里有年长的一代人和年轻的一代人，这里有老师、学生和其他的人； 必须有一种生活方式，使大家快乐地、智慧地、积极地、充满活力地在这里生活。 一个人必须有这种感觉，否则我们都会引向不同的方向。 因此，我想去学习，而我学习中的第一个问题就是： 去找出我是不是真地想合作，我是不是真地有合作的感觉。 你有吗？如果您没有，请找出原因。 这种非凡的品质，这种共同建设、共同做事的合作感觉，是它，创建出这个世界。
Q: What do you mean by, "It has built this world?"
发问者：“它创建出这个世界”。你是指什么意思？
K: The world, in the sense of the railway, the post office, sending a rocket to the moon - three hundred thousand men were involved in that and had to cooperate; they cooperated for patriotic or financial reasons, reasons of vanity and so on. There, they cooperated round an idea in which was involved prestige, competition with Russia and so on. Now can there be real, deep, lasting cooperation when there is a motive? If I have any form of selfish regard, a self-interested motive, can there be cooperation in the sense we want to understand it?
克里希那穆提：这个世界，就如同建立起来的铁路、邮局、向月球发送的火箭 —— 三十万人参与其中，不得不合作； 他们出于爱国、经济、虚荣心等原因合作。 在这里，他们围绕着一个涉及声望、与俄罗斯竞争等的观念进行合作。 当有了一个动机，就能真正地、深入、持久地合作吗？ 如果我有任何形式的私人的顾虑、私人的动机， 那么，那种我们想要理解的合作，是否还会存在？
Q: You want to get something out of it, you don't have to do it.
发问者：你想从中获取某个东西，你不必去做它。
K: Therefore find out if you have got the feeling of getting something out of it. You are beginning to learn something which you can't learn from a book.
克里希那穆提：因此，找出你是否有想从中获取某个东西的感觉。 你现在已经开始学某些书本上学不到的东西了。
Q: The idea of getting something out of it doesn't necessarily come in. If we want to build a house, I see that it will be easier for you and me to work along together. We organize it from the start and we cooperate with one another to build the house. Therefore I have the idea of building a house; we are going to get a house out of it, you and I.
发问者：从中获取个东西的这种想法，不一定会出现。 如果我们想盖一座房子，我看到你和我一起工作会更容易。 我们从一开始就组织起来，我们彼此合作，以建造这座房子。 于是，我有了建房子的想法；我们要从中得到一所房子，你和我。
K: Quite - go further. You can go a little deeper.
克里希那穆提：不错 —— 继续。你可以再深入一步。
Q: So what happens when you want a white house and I don't.
发问者：那么，当你想要一个白色的房子而我不想要时，那么会发生什么。
K: That's it. You want a square room and she wants a long room. You think you know much better than she does. Look what you are doing. Dominic said just now that we will cooperate if we want to build a house together, because he is going to get a house out of it. But if we begin to disagree on what kind of rooms it's going to have, we'll fall out. So what does that mean?
克里希那穆提：就是那样。你想要一个正方形的房子，她想要一个长方形的。 你认为你比她更了解。看看你们在做什么。 刚才，多米尼克说，如果我们想一起盖房子，我们会合作，因为他会从中获取一座房子。 但是，如果我们开始不同意它会是一个什么样的房子，我们就会闹翻。那里面有什么内容？
Q: If you start with the spirit of cooperation and you both want to build something together, won't you still have a problem?
发问者：如果你们从合作的精神开始， 你们都想一起创建某个东西，你们不会有这种问题吗？
K: You'll still have the problem - how will you tackle it? You and I want to cooperate, we want to build a house, you want a square room and I want a long one. And yet we both have the spirit of cooperation. What shall we do?
克里希那穆提：你仍然会遇到这种问题 —— 你将如何解决它？ 你和我想要合作，我们要盖房子，你要正方形的，我要长方形的。 然而，我们都有这种合作精神。我们该怎么办？
Q: We try to find out why you want a long room and why I want a square one.
发问者：我们试图找出为什么你想要一个长方形的房子，以及为什么我想要一个正方形的房子。
K: Which means what?
克里希那穆提：这意味着什么？
Q: We cooperate.
发问者：我们合作。
K: Which means we are both willing to yield. You don't stick to your point, I don't stick to mine. Which means what?
克里希那穆提：这意味着我们都愿意让步。 你不坚持你的观点，我不坚持我的观点。这意味着什么？
Q: You don't have a fixed idea, so you are learning.
发问者：你没有一个固定的想法，所以你在学习。
K: It means you have a pliable mind, you don't say, "I must have it", you are willing to change, which means you are not holding on to your particular desire, to your particular opinion.
克里希那穆提：这意味着你有一个柔韧的头脑，你不会说“我必须拥有它”， 你愿意去改变，这意味着你不会坚持你特殊的欲望，你特定的观点。
Q: Say you are willing to think about it and the other person isn't.
发问者：假设你愿意这么去想，而另一个人却不愿意。
K: What will you do?
克里希那穆提：你会怎么做？
Q: I guess you would do what the other person wants - if you are willing to discuss and they are not.
发问者：我猜你会做别人想要的 —— 如果你愿意讨论而他们不愿意。
K: That's just it, what do you do if you want to cooperate and another doesn't?
克里希那穆提：就是那样，如果你想合作而别人不合作，你会怎么做？
Q: See the point of that person.
发问者：视那个人的观点而定。
K: But in a community like this, what are you to do?
克里希那穆提：但是，在这样一个社区，你要怎么做？
Q: (1) You have to talk it over with them until they are back to cooperating. You see, I would be the one who would be yielding - I'm looking at it from my point of view - I'd be willing to talk about it. I don't know what I would do if the other person didn't want to.
发问者1：必须和他们讨论，直到他们回心转意去合作。 你看，我会是那个让步的人 —— 我是从我的角度来看它 —— 我愿意谈论它。 如果对方不愿意，我不知道我该怎么做。
Q: (2) Perhaps instead of talking about the room you would start talking about cooperation itself, because this is the cause of the problem.
发问者2：也许，你会开始谈论合作本身而不是谈论房子，因为这是问题的原因。
Q: (3) And you have to have the spirit of cooperation to begin with.
发问者3：而且你必须要以合作的精神开始。
K: But I haven't got it. Take a wider issue. Generally we worship the intellect, the clever person who passes exams brilliantly is the most respected. Intellectually he is sharp, alive, good at his subject; playing games and doing anything in the garden is a bore to him. See how important it is that we should not only have a good brain, but also that we should be able to do things - to garden, cook, wash up - not just be one sided. Intelligence implies being able to do things, not to say, "I don't like gardening, it bores me, I only like to study." That is a lopsided way of living.
克里希那穆提：但我还没有得到它。考虑一个更广泛的问题。 一般来说，我们崇拜才华，那些考试成绩优异的聪明人是最受尊敬的。 在智力上，他敏锐、活泼、擅长他的学科； 玩游戏和在花园里做任何事情，对他来说，都是无聊的。 要看到这一点的重要性，那就是：我们不仅应该有一个好的大脑， 而且应该能够做事情 —— 园艺、做饭、洗漱 —— 而不只是会做某个部分。 智慧意味着能够做事，不要说，“我不喜欢园艺，它对我我来说很无聊，我只喜欢研究”。 那是一种不平衡的生活方式。
Now I'm going to propose that here we should not only have really first class brains, that is to be able to think logically, sanely, dispassionately, not personally. But also one must have skill in action. You know Yoga? - that word also means "skill in action", not just doing a few exercises. How are you going to have that skill in action?
现在，我提议，在这里，我们不仅应该拥有一流的大脑， 那种能够逻辑地、理智地、冷静地、不自私地思考的大脑； 也必须具备行动中的技巧。你知道“瑜伽”吗？ —— 那个词也意味着“行动中的技巧”，而不仅仅是做一些练习。 你将如何在行动中拥有这种技巧？
Q: Through practice.
发问者：通过实践。
K: Which means doing things. I would like to suggest - I have done a great deal of it in my life - that everyone should do some kind of work with the earth: gardening, planting, tending it - not just say, "I'll plant, you'll go and water." Looking after it, caring for it - that gives you an opportunity to care for something. Have you ever dug the soil? - you get in touch with the earth. I am going to propose that there should be not only an intellectual activity of the highest order here, but also a great deal of intense, active, clear thinking, working, studying at the highest level. And also to have skill in action, which is doing things. When you play the guitar, play it properly, not just strum. Do everything skilfully, and one of the ways to learn about it is to do things in the garden, play games and so on. Now I suggest this and you say, "I don't want to garden, it bores me." What are you going to do with such a person?
克里希那穆提：也就是做事情，我会这么建议 —— 我在我的生命中做了很多 —— 每个人都应该做一些与大地相关的工作：园艺，种植，照料它 —— 不只是说，“我会去种植，你会去浇水。” 现在，去照料它，关心它 —— 这会让你有机会去照顾一些东西。 你挖过地吗？—— 你就与大地有了接触。 我要提议，这里不仅应该有最高级别的智力活动， 而且还应该有非常多的、激烈的、积极的、清晰的思考、最高级别的工作和研究。 还要有行动中的技巧，就是做事情。 当你弹吉他时，要恰当地弹奏，而不只是拨弄。 凡事都做得熟练，而学习它的方法之一就是在花园里做事、玩游戏等等。 现在我提出了这个建议，而你说，“我不想做园艺，它让我厌烦。” 碰到这样的人，你打算怎么办？
Q: Find out why he or she won't do it.
发问者：找出他或她不这样做的原因。
K: And then what?
克里希那穆提：然后呢？
Q: There might be a reason why...
发问者：可能是这个原因……
K: Find out. He says to you, "I don't like it, I'm bored with it."
克里希那穆提：找出来。他对你说：“我不喜欢它，我讨厌它。”
Q: You have a right not to, if you don't want to.
发问者：如果你不想做，你有权力不做。
K: You are all too quick with answers. I don't want to garden and I don't want to work in the kitchen. You see what happens - gradually I withdraw. And round me I am going to collect people who don't want to do things.
克里希那穆提：你回答得太快了。 我不想去花园，也不想去厨房工作。 你看看，在发生什么 —— 渐渐地，我退出了。 在我的周围，我将聚集起一堆不想做这些事情的人。
Q: That's just one thing you don't want to do.
发问者：那只不过是你不想做的一件事而已。
K: But why not? Intelligence says you must be good at these things and not say, "I don't want to play games." You are going to live here much more than you do at home this is your home, my home, other people's home; it is our home. Our home means also the garden, the lawn, the planting of the trees, the looking after the trees. As I am going to live here, I can't say, "I don't want to look after the garden." It is our home, I can't leave it to you. How will you show me or help me to learn that we must do things together, or learn about doing things together. It is as much your responsibility as Mrs. Simmons', or someone else's. How will you help me, who says, "I am bored with games - leave me alone with my pop music or with my book. As I feel at home, I am going to leave my pyjamas on the floor in my room." What will you do? "I'm going to leave my shoes in the corridor, or I'll leave my room untidy, I don't care. At home in California, in London, in Paris, I behave as I want to. Here, why are you telling me what I should do?" And then somebody comes along and tells you, "Please, don't do that." You reply, "You are authoritarian, this is our home I can do whatever I like."
克里希那穆提：但为什么不做呢？ 智慧说：你必须擅长这些事情，而不是说，“我不想玩游戏”。 你在这里住的时间比在家的时间还多，这就是你的家、我的家、别人的家；它是我们的家。 我们的家也意味着这里的花园、草坪、树木的种植、树木的养护。 因为我要住在这里，所以我不能说，“我不想照顾花园。” 这是我们的家，我不能把它留给你。 您将如何向我展示或帮助我，去学习我们必须一起做事，或学习如何一起做事。 你的责任同西蒙夫人的或其他人的责任一样多。 你将如何帮助我，这个我声称，“我讨厌做游戏 —— 让我独自一人听我的流行音乐或看我的书。 我有在家的感觉，所以我要把我的睡衣扔在我的地板上。” 你会怎么做？ “我要把鞋子脱在走廊上，让房间凌乱不堪，我不在乎这些。 在加利福尼亚、在伦敦、在巴黎的家中，我都随心所欲。 在这里，你为什么要告诉我我应该做什么？” 然后，有人过来告诉你：“请不要那样做。” 你回答道：“你是独裁者，这是我们的家，我可以做我想做的事情。”
So how will you teach or help me to learn that to live intelligently implies playing games, looking after the garden, studying, doing things with one's hands, not just with one's brain? Personally, I like to do everything, gardening, milking cows, looking after chickens, looking after babies, changing diapers - I have done all kinds of things. I like it, nobody imposes it on me, and that's the way to live, that's the most intelligent way: having the capacity to do things.
那么，你将如何教导或帮助我怎么去学习，怎么去智慧地生活， 也就是玩游戏、照看花园、学习、用双手做事，而不仅仅是用大脑？ 就我个人而言，我喜欢做任何事情，园艺、挤奶、照顾鸡、照顾婴儿、换尿布 —— 我做过各种各样的事情。 我喜欢它，没有人把它强加给我，那就是生活的方式， 那就是最智慧的生活方式：有能力做事情。
Now what will you do with a person in this school, who says, "I'm going to leave my room as I like - I sleep in it. I am orderly because I can find what I want among this disorder." Where do you start learning? We all want to live together, be happy together, do things together - life is doing things together. So please tell me how you propose to learn about all this.
现在，你会怎么处理这所学校的这种人，他说： “我的房间由我做主 —— 是我睡在里面。 我觉得它有秩序，因为我可以在这种混乱中找到我想要的东西。” 你从哪里开始学习？ 我们都想一起生活，一起快乐，一起做事 —— 生命就是一起做事。 因此，请告诉我，你打算如何学习这一切。
Q: You start in a spirit of cooperation.
发问者：你以一种合作的精神开始。
K: If you have got it, how are you going to help me to learn about it?
克里希那穆提：如果你得到了它，你将如何帮助我去学习它？
Q: You have to make a rule.
发问者：你必须制定一个规则。
K: Then what happens? The moment you make a rule I'm going to break it, because I want to be free. People went to America because they did not like various impositions, they said they wanted to be free. They left the old country and went to a new country. They said, "We'll start anew, no bishops, no kings." Gradually the monster has grown there too.
克里希那穆提：那样做，会发生什么？ 你制定规则的那一刻，我就要打破它，因为我想要自由。 人们去美国，是因为他们不喜欢各种强加的东西，他们说他们想要自由。 他们离开了旧的国家，去了一个新的国家。他们说：“我们将重新开始，没有主教，没有国王。” 渐渐地，这个怪兽也在那里长大。
So do we see the importance of having a good brain that can think, that can study, that can observe and learn objectively, sanely?
因此，我们是否看到拥有一个能够思考、学习， 能够客观的、理智的观察和学习的好大脑的重要性？
Q: Sir, what happens if we are born with an insufficient brain?
发问者：先生，如果我们出生时大脑不足，会怎么样？
K: If you are born with an insufficient brain, then I'm afraid there is nothing much you can do.
克里希那穆提：如果你天生大脑不足，那么恐怕你无能为力。
Q: You talk about it as if there is something we can do.
发问者：你谈论它，好像我们能够做些什么。
K: Obviously, because if we have got insufficient brains we are not necessarily moronic.
克里希那穆提：显然，因为如果我们的大脑不足，我们就不一定是愚蠢的。
Q: I mean feebleminded.
发问者：我是说弱智。
K: If you are feebleminded, this can be corrected by recognising it. I'm going to do something about it, I don't just say, "I am feebleminded" and sit back.
克里希那穆提：如果你是弱智，可以通过认识它来纠正。 我要为此做点什么，我不会只是说，“我很弱智”，然后坐着不动。
Q: Then what do you do?
发问者：那么，你怎么做？
K: Learn that I am feebleminded.
克里希那穆提：去学习“我是弱智”。
Q: Some people have a greater capacity to do things than others.
发问者：有些人比其他人有更大的做事能力。
K: So learn. If I have the capacity to do one thing better than another, it can lead to lopsided living. I am a human being, I've got extraordinary capacities. I must exercise all those capacities, otherwise I'm not a human being. I become merely a technician. If you say, "I'm not really interested in anything like music, or looking at the loveliness of the day - leave me with my mathematics," then I say, "You are feebleminded."
克里希那穆提：因此，学习。 如果我有能力把一件事做得比另一件事做得更好，那可能会导致生活的不平衡。 我是一个人，我有非凡的能力。我必须运用所有这些能力，否则我就不是人。 我就只是一个技术员。 如果你说，“我对音乐，或外面的美景真的不感兴趣 —— 让我留下来，学数学吧。” 那么，我会说：“你个弱智。”
Q: But isn't there something such as inherent capacity that we are born with.
发问者：但是，难道不存在某种东西吗，比如说，某种与生俱来的能力？
K: Anything can be changed.
克里希那穆提：任何事情都可以改变。
Q: Can we all be Beethovens?
发问者：我们都可以成为贝多芬吗？
K: I want to learn: I don't want to be like anybody, I don't want to become like Christ or Buddha or Beethoven or Einstein! I want to see things differently, have a way of living entirely differently. As a group of people living together, who are encouraged to feel that here is their home, what will you do if somebody says, "Sorry, I don't feel like working in the garden, ever?"
克里希那穆提：我想去学习：我不想成为任何人， 我不想变成像基督、佛陀、贝多芬或爱因斯坦！ 我想以不同的方式看待事物，一种完全不同的生活方式。 作为一群住在一起的人，被鼓励着去感受这里是他们的家， 如果有人说：“对不起，我从来不想在花园里工作”，你会怎么做？
Q: (1) Maybe it's not their home.
发问者1：也许那不是他们的家。
Q: (2) I suppose it's no good splitting up into groups? - those who like gardening and those who like doing something else.
发问者2：我建议，分成小组是不很好吗？ —— 喜欢园艺的人和喜欢做其他事情的人。
Q: (3) If someone doesn't like gardening, maybe he doesn't feel this is his home, maybe he doesn't belong here.
发问者3：如果有人不喜欢园艺，也许他不觉得这是他的家，也许他不属于这里。
K: Right, he doesn't belong here. How will you convey it to him? Will you say: "You come here to be educated in the real sense of that word and apparently you don't like to be educated; you want to remain a savage." Will you push him out? He came here too for education and he doesn't know what it means to be educated, he thought only in terms of revolt against the Establishment, against the professor, saying, "I know everything, who are you to tell me?" And he doesn't know what that word "cooperation" means. You may have to get rid of him. Will you do that?
克里希那穆提：是的，他不属于这里。你将如何传达给他？ 你会这么说吗：“你来这里是为了接受真正意义上的教育， 显然，你不喜欢被教育；你想保持野蛮状态。” 你会把他赶出去吗？ 他来这儿，也是来被教育的，但他不知道受教育是什么意思， 他只想反权势，反专家， 他说：“我什么都知道，你算老几？” 他不知道“合作”这个词是什么意思。 你可能不得不摆脱他。你会那样做吗？
Q: Does that mean we have to get to like what learning is?
发问者：那是否意味着我们必须弄清“学习是什么”？
K: That's what we are doing now.
克里希那穆提：那就是我们正在做的事情。
Q: That's what we're doing; so we don't have to worry about somebody else.
发问者：那就是我们正在做的；因此，我们不必担心别人。
K: But suppose at the end of four months I still keep my room like a pigsty, what are you going to do with me?
克里希那穆提：但是，假设在四个月结束的时候， 我的房间仍然像猪圈一样，你打算拿我怎么办？
Q: If I really agreed with you that having a clean room is necessary, it wouldn't ever be dirty again.
发问者：如果我真的同意你‘有一个干净的寝室是必要的’，那么，它就不会再脏了。
K: But you don't. You are all children, with heavy bodies, with a lot of kick, but children.
克里希那穆提：但你不同意。你们都是孩子，身体很重，踢得很厉害，你们还是孩子。
Q: Well then, what's the reason?
发问者：好吧，那么，是什么原因导致的？
K: Have patience to find out, tell me.
克里希那穆提：花点耐心来找，告诉我。
Q: What would you do? Talk to them?
发问者：你会怎么做？跟他们说吗？
K: First we come to a place like this to learn. Learning is not only from a book, but learning together what cooperation means. And learning together what it means to find out that man has always sought security: security in God, in marriage, socially - in everything man wants security. Security means passing an exam, getting a degree: that gives you the promise of security. Here is a place to find out if there is such a thing as security. Here is a place where we are going to educate ourselves, which means learning together what it means to cooperate, what it means to find out what love is. We are completely ignorant of so many things.
克里希那穆提：首先，我们来到这样的地方学习。 学习不仅仅是书本，还包括一起学习‘什么是合作’。 而一起学习，意味着去发现人们一直在寻求的安全到底是什么： 来自于上帝、婚姻、社会的安全 —— 来自于人所期盼的任何东西中的安全。 安全意味着通过考试，获得学位：那些东西给了你一种安全的承诺。 在这里，去发现是否存在某个叫“安全”的东西。 在这里，我们要进行自我教育， 也就是说，一起去学习合作的含义，去找出爱是什么。 我们彻底地忽视了太多的事情。
Q: May I ask something? When someone is violent in his practice of yoga - in the way he does it - and you are constantly warning him, mostly this does not help the person to realize his own violence; he may at the time realize it, but he keeps on. In the same way, one could oneself have been doing certain things for a very long time until suddenly one realizes it.
发问者：我可以问一件事吗？ 当某人在练习瑜伽时，有暴力的行为 —— 他所做的方式 —— 而你不断警告他，通常，这无助于他意识到他自己的粗暴； 他可能当时意识到了，但他仍然没改正。 同样地，一个人可能习惯性地、长期地做某种事情，直到某个瞬间，才会突然意识到这一点。
K: True.
克里希那穆提：没错。
Q: Is it possible to educate someone who has not gone through a natural kind of maturation, like a plant? So what is the reaction of a person, who has grown a little more, to the person who has not grown? And if the person, for instance, has not grown to the awareness of the need for a still mind, the necessity of a still mind, how can you help another? - you cannot. So how can we act here?
发问者：可以教育一个没有经历过成熟的人吗，就像一株植物一样，让他自然地生长？ 那么，成熟一点的人和新人之间，有什么关联？ 举一个例子，如果一个人还没有觉察到一颗静止的头脑的必要性， 你怎么去帮助这个人呢？—— 你不能。在这里，我们怎么行动？
K: He's talking about Yoga. He asks, when you stand this way, take this posture, do you get the idea first, or do you do it as the yoga teacher is saying it? You see the difference? He says, "Sit this way," and he shows you. Do you have the image of how he sits and then carry it out, or in the very observing of how he is sitting, are you doing it? As he is showing it to you, do you have the idea of what he's doing and then carry out the idea? Or are you doing it as he is showing it to you? Which do you do?
克里希那穆提：他说的是瑜伽。他问，当你这样站着，采取这个姿势， 你是先有这个想法，还是当瑜伽老师在说的同时，你就在做？ 你看出区别了吗？ 他说，“这样子坐下”，他向你展示。 你是先想出他是如何坐，然后再照着做； 还是在看他怎么做的同时，你就去做它？ 当他向您展示时，您是否有一个关于他在做什么的想法，之后，把这个想法再付诸实践？ 还是当他向你展示的同时，你就在做？你是怎么做的？
Q: We do it while he's showing it.
发问者：在他展示的时候，我们就做它。
K: Which means what? Go into it. Which means, doesn't it? that you are listening very carefully to what he's saying - the very listening is the doing. Not first listen, then have the idea, and then carry out the idea - which is entirely different. That needs education, that needs growth.
克里希那穆提：这意味着什么？进去吧。这意味着，不是吗？ 你正在非常仔细地听他说的话 —— 那种“听”就是“做”。 不是先听，然后有了这个想法，接着把这个想法付诸实践 —— 那就完全不同了， 那样一来，就需要教育，需要成长。
Look, I have done yoga for many years. I've had several yoga teachers, and I did it as they told me; which means there was no contradiction between the doing and the listening. If you first create the idea, the image, then it will take an infinitely long time, then you need practice. But if the teacher says, "Do this" and you do it, you are doing it. You may do it badly, but you are doing it. See the importance of this. Most of us listen, then create an idea, and then carry out the idea. Here, if you listen and do, the idea is gone. The cultivation of the idea and carrying out the idea needs time - which is called maturity, growth.
看，我做了很多年的瑜伽。我有几位瑜伽老师，我按照他们说的去做； 这意味着，在做和听之间，没有矛盾。 如果您首先描绘一个观念、一张图像，那么它将花费无限长的时间，那么您就需要练习。 但是如果老师说，“做这个”，你就做它，动作就出来了。 你可能做得不好，但你正在做它。 看到这一点的重要性。我们大多数人只是听，然后产生了一个想法，再去执行这个想法。 在这儿，如果你去听和做，这种想法就消逝了。 想法的培养与实践，需要时间 —— 这就是所谓的成熟、成长。
Q: Let us say someone is doing a yoga posture and I say, "Be violent, try to force it," that would be preventing them to see...
发问者：假设有人在做瑜伽姿势，而我说， “使劲，试着强迫它，” 这将会阻止他们去看……
K: I'll show you something - touch the floor with your hands. Say, you've never done it, you may not be able to do that. What do you do? You listen, you may not be able to touch the floor, but you are doing it. The actual doing of it may take a little time, but the "doing of it" is there already.
克里希那穆提：我给你展示某些动作 —— 我说，用你的双手触摸这个地板。 你从来没有做过它，你可能做不到。你怎么做的？ 你听，你可能无法触摸地板，但你正在做它。 实际做起来，可能需要一点时间，但“这样做”的动作已经有了。
Q: You haven't completed it, but you're on the way to doing it.
发问者：你没有完成它，但你正在做的路上。
K: That's it.
克里希那穆提：就是那样。
Q: Because you're not resisting.
发问者：因为你没有抗拒。
K: The moment you have an idea you are already resisting.
克里希那穆提：在你产生想法的那一刻，你就已经在抗拒了。
Q: It would be the same about cooperation.
发问者：合作也是一样。
K: About everything.
克里希那穆提：任何事情都是这样。
Q: (1) But in Yoga suppose he attempts to do something that's wrong...
发问者1：但在瑜伽中，假设他尝试去做某些错误的事情……
Q: (2) Maybe you have to do it anyway, because if you don't do what he does, you can't find out if it's wrong.
发问者2：也许，无论如何你都必须去做，因为如果你不去照着他所做的去做，你就无法分辨出它的对错。
K: Therefore you have to find out if he is the right teacher. I'm not a professional but I've done a great deal of yoga. There is a teacher who is supposed to be the teacher of other teachers. He says, "To do yoga properly, is to do it without any effort. If there is an effort it's not yoga." See the reason for it. Your body is not subtle, it's rigid, therefore it takes a week or more but don't force it. If you force, then you exert muscles in a wrong direction, which is bad for them; so do it very gently, take a week, a month, but do it slowly. If the teacher tells you, "Sit that way," you may do it wrongly, but begin, don't carry out the idea. In the same way, you listen to the feeling of cooperation, and you already have it if you're listening to it. Don't create an idea about cooperation and then carry that idea out.
克里希那穆提：因此，你必须找出他是不是正确的老师。 我不是专业人士，但我做了很多瑜伽。 有一个老师应该是其他老师的老师。 他说：“正确地做瑜伽，就是去做它，而不用任何的努力。如果有一点点强迫，它就不是瑜伽。” 看看这其中的道理。 你的身体并不微妙，它很僵硬，因此需要一周或更长的时间，但不要强迫它。 如果你强迫，那么你就会在错误的方向上运用肌肉，这对它们不利； 所以，要非常轻柔地做，花一周、一个月的时间，但要慢慢来。 如果老师告诉你，“那样坐”，你可能会做错，但你已经开始做了，不要有这种“做”的想法。 同样的，你听了“合作的感觉”，如果你在听，你就已经有这种感觉了。 不要产生一种“合作”的想法，然后再去实践这个想法。
Q: Can we take orderliness, for instance?
发问者：例如，我们可以保持秩序吗？
K: Yes. We need order; if you are untidy, if are unpunctual, we can't live together, it'll become impossible. We have to have a certain order. Don't create a picture of it: that I want order and you don't want order. We have to live together in a place like this. To live together implies order. So I have to have order. Do you listen to it without any resistance, or are you going to fight it? Please listen to what is being said without any resistance, knowing that living together needs order. If I don't bathe and I say, "What's wrong with it? I'm all right. I like my smell" - then we create disorder.
克里希那穆提：是的。我们需要秩序；如果你不整洁、不守时，我们就不能住在一起，这将变得不可能。 我们必须有一定的秩序。不要描绘这样的画面：我想要秩序而你不想要。 我们必须一起生活，就像在这个地方一样。 一起生活意味着秩序。所以我必须有秩序。 你是毫无抵触地在听吗，还是你要与之抗争？ 请毫无抵触地听，意识到一起生活需要秩序。 如果我不洗澡，我说，“有什么问题？我感觉很好。我喜欢我的气味” —— 那么，我们就在制造失序。
Are you listening now to the word "cooperation", to the word "order", not creating a picture of it? - then you are immediately orderly.
现在，你在听“合作”这个词，“秩序”这个词，而没有去描绘关于它的画面吗？ —— 那么，你马上就井井有条了。
Q: Don't words like order and cooperation mean something to us, in so far as we've experienced them?
发问者：就我们的经验而言，对我们来说，诸如秩序和合作之类的词，不是有意义的吗？
K: Yes, of course they do. Which means what? You've already made a picture, had an experience of what order is, what cooperation is, and that becomes the resistance. Whereas if we say, "Look, let's find out, learn what it means to be orderly, what it means to cooperate," then we can't have a conclusion about it, because we're learning. If the yoga teacher says to you, "Sit this way," you may not be able to, it may take a week or a month, but the way you listen to it is far more important than sitting rightly. The sitting rightly will come, but the listening to what he says is instantaneous.
克里希那穆提：是的，它们当然有意义。那意味着什么？ 你已经描绘出了一个画面，拥有一种什么是秩序，什么是合作的经验，那些就变成了这种阻力。 然而，如果我们说，“看，让我们找出来，学习秩序是什么意思，合作是什么意思”， 那么，我们就不能给它下一个定论，因为我们正在学习。 如果瑜伽老师对你说，“这样坐”，你可能做不到，可能需要一周或一个月， 但你听的方式远比正确的坐姿重要。 正确的坐姿需要逐渐练出来，但听他所说的话是即刻的。
Q: Usually for us to listen that way, we have to have a great deal of confidence.
发问者：一般来说，我们要以那种方式去听，必须有很大的信心。
K: Why should you have confidence? I'm telling you and you listen. Why should you have confidence in me?
克里希那穆提：你为什么要有信心？我告诉你，你听。为什么要对我有信心？
Q: Because you might be telling me to kill.
发问者：因为你可能要我去杀人。
K: Why should you have confidence in me? First learn the art of listening, learn - not from me. Because I don't know, I may say things that are wrong; therefore listen to find out what is true and what is false, which is to become sensitive. You cannot become sensitive - which is intelligence - if you are obstinate, if you resist when someone says to you: "This is what I think." The important thing is the art of listening.
克里希那穆提：你为什么要对我有信心？首先学习听的艺术。学习 —— 不是向我学习。 因为我不知道，我可能会说错话； 因此去听，找出什么是真，什么是假，也就是变得敏感。 你无法变得敏感 —— 敏感就是智慧 —— 如果你很顽固，如果你抗拒别人所说的话：“这是我的想法”。 重点在于听的艺术。
Q: But if someone is telling you what they think, isn't that them telling you?
发问者：但是，如果有人说出他的想法，那个想法不是他告诉你的吗？
K: Of course. I'm your yoga teacher, I'm supposed to know something about it, I may not know the whole of it, but I know a little bit of it and I teach you what I know. And in teaching you I'm also learning.
克里希那穆提：当然是。我是你的瑜伽老师，我应该对瑜伽有所了解，我可能不知道全部， 但我知道一点点，而我会教你我所知道的。在教你的同时，我也在学习。