P: Science and yoga both maintain that when a living organism is exposed to tremendous energy there is a mutation. This happens when there is excessive exposure to radiation - it may lead to a mutation in the genes. It also happens according to yoga, when thought is placed in consciousness before the fire of energy. Do you think this has meaning in terms of what you are teaching? B: Radiation brings deformity. There can be destructive mutation. A laser beam pierces steel and flesh. It has the power to destroy as well as to heal.
普：科学和瑜伽都有这种观点： 当一个有机体暴露于巨大的能量场中，就有一种突变。 当过度的曝露于辐射场中 —— 可能导致基因突变。 根据瑜伽的说法，当意识中的思想曝露于能量之火中，也会如此。 你认为这在你的教诲之中有意义吗？ 芭：辐射引发畸变，能产生破坏性的突变。 激光刺穿钢铁和血肉。能量既可以毁灭，又可以治疗。
K: What would you say is human energy? What is energy in human beings? Let us keep it very simple. P: Energy is that which makes movement possible. B: Energy is at different levels. There is the energy at the physical level. Then the brain itself is a source of energy; it sends out electrical impulses. K: All movement, radiation, any movement of thought, any action is energy. When does it become intense? When can it do the most astonishing things? When can it be directed to do incredible things?
克：对于人类的能量，你会说它是什么？人有什么能量？让我们使它保持简单。 普：能量可以使物体产生运动。 芭：能量有不同的层面，有物理上的能量。 同时这颗大脑本身也是能量的源头；它发出电脉冲。 克：一切运动、辐射、任何的思想运动、任何行动，都是能量。 它在什么时候变得强烈？ 它在什么时候能做出最惊奇的事？ 它在什么时候能被引导着去做令人难以置信的事？
P: When it is not dissipated. When it is brought into focus. K: When does that happen? Does it happen in anger, hatred, violence? Does it happen when there is ambition, when there is tremendous desire? Or does it happen when a poet has the urge, the vitality, the energy to write? P: Such energy crystallizes and becomes static.
普：当它不被浪费、被聚焦的时候。 克：那时发生了什么？它发生在生气、仇恨、暴力的时候吗？ 或者，在雄心万丈、欲望爆发的时候？ 或者，在诗人拥有渴望、这种活力、这种写作的能量的时候？ 普：那种能量结晶，并呈现为静态。
K: We know this form of energy. But the energy we know does not bring about a change in the human mind. Why? This energy becomes intense when there is fulfilment in action. When does it move to a different dimension? An artist or a scientist, using his talent, intensifies energy and gives expression to it. But the quality of his mind, of his being, is not transformed by this energy. P: We are missing something in all this.
克：我们知道能量的这种形式。可是这种能量并没有带来人的头脑的改变。为什么？ 在行动的履行中，这种能量变得强烈。 在什么时候，它朝向不同的维度运动？ 一名艺术家，或者一位科学家，利用他的天赋，增强能量并将其表现出来。 但是他的头脑、他自身的品质，并没有通过这种能量而产生变化。 普：我们缺少某些东西。
K: You are asking whether there is a quality of energy which transforms the human mind? That is your question. Now, why does it not take place in the artist, in the musician, in the writer? P: I think it is because their energy is one-dimensional. K: The artist still remains ambitious, greedy, a bourgeois. S: Why do you say that greed would come in the way of energy operating? Man may be ambitious but he is also good. These are the elements which structure his self. K: We are asking why, when man has that energy, that energy does not bring about a radical change?
克：你在问‘有没有一种能量能转变人的头脑？’，那是你的问题。 现在，为什么它没有在艺术家、音乐家和作家的身上发生？ 普：我想，那是因为他们的能量是单维的。 克：这位艺术家依然是有野心的、贪婪的，是一个中产阶级分子。 苏: 你为什么这么说：在能量的运用中会出现贪婪？人或许有野心，但是他也是善良的。 正是这些因素构成了他的自我。 克：我们在问，当人具备了那种能量，为什么那种能量没有引发一次根本性的改变？
P: Man has energy to operate in his environment. But there are large areas of his being where there is no movement of energy. K: Man uses energy, operates fully in one direction, and in the other he is dormant. Energy is dormant in one part of his existence, and in the other part it is active. P: Even man's sensory instruments are utilized partially.
普：人在他的环境中运用能量。 但是，在他的生命中，还有大片领域的能量没有运动。 克：人使用能量，朝着一个方向使其完全地运转，而在其余的方向上，他却处于昏沉之中。 在他存在的一部分中，能量是昏沉的；而在另一部分中，它是活跃的。 普：即便是人的感官，也是在局部地被利用。
K: He is a fragmentary human being. Why does this division take place? One fragment is tremendously active, the other does not function at all. One fragment is ordinary, bourgeois, petty. When do these two fragments coalesce to become harmonious energy? An energy which is not fragmented? An energy which does not function fully at one level while at another level its voltage is low?
克：他是一个破碎的人类。这种分裂，为什么产生出这种分裂？ 一块碎片极其地活跃，而另一块却根本不转。 一块碎片是普通的、平庸的、琐碎的。 在什么时候，这两块碎片能够合并，变成和谐的能量？一种没有破碎的能量？ 在一个层面上没有完全地运转，在另一层面上处于低压状态的这片能量？
P: When the sensory instruments operate fully. K: When does this take place? Do they operate completely when there is a tremendous crisis? P: Not always, Sir. The action of crisis can also be partial; you can jump when you see a snake but you can jump into a bush of thorns.
普：当感官们充分地运转时。 克：这种情况在什么时候出现？当发生重大危机的时候，它们在完全地运转吗？ 普：不总是这样，先生。面对危机的行为也可能是片面的； 当你看到一条蛇，你可能跳起来，但是你可能会跳进布满荆棘的灌木丛中。
K: When does the fragment cease to be a fragment? Are we not thinking in terms of movement, in terms of action, in terms of change? We have accepted the movement to be, the movement of becoming. We have accepted fragmentation. The movement of becoming is always a movement in fragments. Is there a movement which does not belong to these categories? See what happens if there is no movement at all.
克：在什么时候，这块碎片不再是一块碎片？ 我们不是正在从运动、行为和改变的角度来思考吗？ 我们已经承认了这种运动，这种成为的运动。我们已经接受了这种碎片。 这种成为的运动，总是一种碎片化的运动。 有没有一种运动不属于这个类别？ 如果根本就没有运动，看看是什么情况？
P: I have always found it difficult to understand this question of yours. The nature of the very question suggests the other, the opposite. S: One really does not know the dormant movement.
普：我总是发现很难理解你的这个问题。 这个问题的性质，恰好支撑着另一个，这个问题的对立面。 苏: 一个人真地不知道这种沉睡着的运动。
K: At the beginning we said there was fragmentation. One fragment is very alive and the other is not alive. B: The energy of the artist, the whole of his being, operates one-dimensionally. There is non-awareness. K: I am not at all sure. One fragment is alive. You are saying the other fragment is not aware of itself at all. P: The artist paints, he also has an affair with a woman. He does not see these actions as fragments.
克：在开始，我们说，存在着分裂。 一块碎片非常活跃，而另一块碎片没有生机。 芭：艺术家的这种能量，他全部的存在，在单一的维度上运作。其中没有觉察。 克：我根本不确定。一块碎片处于活跃的状态。你说另一块碎片没有觉察到它自己。 普：这位艺术家绘画，他同时也喜爱一个女人。他没有把这些行为当作碎片。
K: We have gone beyond that. We see he is fragmented. He operates in fragments - one is active and the other is dormant. In that dormancy there is action going on. One is very active and the other is action in a minor key. We see this. Now the question is, can this energy heighten to bring about a mutation in the brain cells? P: Can it take the sluggish part along and alter its very structure so that there is a transformation in both?
克：我们已经超越了那一点。我们看到他是破碎的。 他在破碎中行动 —— 一块碎片是活跃的，而其它部分处于昏沉中。 在那昏睡中，进行着运动。 一种是活泼的，另一种是微弱的。我们看到这一点。 现在的问题：这个能量能不能增强，并使脑细胞产生一种突变？ 普：它能否激活懒散的部分，并改变它的结构，从而使两者都发生变化？
K: I may be a great sculptor. A part of me is dormant. You ask, can there be a mutation not only in the dormant but also in that energy which goes into the making of the sculptor? The question is, am I willing to accept that I may cease to be a sculptor? Because that may happen. When I go into this problem of a change in the very brain cells themselves, it is possible I may never be a sculptor. But it is very important for me to be a sculptor. I do not want to let that go.
克：我也许是个伟大的雕塑家，我其中的一部分处于昏睡的状态。 你问，能不能有一场突变 不仅发生在这昏睡的部分，也发生在那种使其成为雕塑家的能量中？ 这个问题是，我愿意接受‘我可能不再是一名雕塑家’？因为那是有可能发生的。 当我深入这个问题：这些脑细胞们能发生变化吗？这有可能使我不再是一名雕塑家。 但是，对我而言，当一名雕塑家是非常重要的，我不想放弃那种天赋。
P: Let us leave the sculptor. Here we are in front of you and you say, look, this change in the structure of the brain cells may be the ending of all the talent, of all significant action. We accept what you say.
普：让我们不要考虑这位雕塑家。我们就在你面前，你说， 看，脑细胞结构的这种改变可能终止所有的天赋，所有重要的行动。 我们接受你所说的。
K: That is right. If you are prepared to let go, then what takes place? Which means, you let go the talent, the fulfilment, the perpetuation of the "me". Now when does this mutation in the brain cells through energy take place? You see, where energy is being dissipated through talent and through other channels, energy is not completely held. When this energy has no movement at all, then I think something happens, then it must explode. I think then the quality of the brain-cell itself changes. That is why I asked why we are always thinking in terms of movement?
克：没错。如果你准备好放弃，那么，出现了什么？ 那意味着你放弃了这份天赋，这种成就，这个‘我’的延续。 现在，通过能量，脑细胞们的这场突变什么时候发生？ 你看，能量通过天赋和其他渠道而被耗费，能量没有被完全地掌握。 当这个能量完全不动的时候，那么，我想，某些事物发生了，它肯定爆发。 我想，那么，脑细胞的品质就自发地改变了。 那就是为什么我问：为什么我们总是从运动的角度来思考？
When there is no movement inwardly or outwardly, when there is no demand for experience, no awakening, no seeking, no movement of any kind, then energy is at its height. Which means, one must negate all movement. When that takes place, energy is completely quiet, which is silence. As we said the other day, when there is silence, then the mind is transforming itself. When it is completely fallow, when nobody is cultivating it, then it is quiet like the womb.
当内在和外在没有移动， 当没有对体验、觉醒、寻找等任何动作的要求，那么，能量处在它的高度。 这意味着，一个人必须否定所有的动。那一刻的出现，能量处于彻底的安静中，也就是寂静。 正如我们前些天提到的， 当出现寂静，那么，这颗头脑就在变化它自己。 当它处于完全的休耕状态，当没有人去培养它的时候，那么，它就像子宫一样安静。
The mind which is the vessel of movement, when that movement has no form, no "me", no vision, no image, it is completely quiet. In it there is no memory. Then the brain cells undergo a change. The brain cells are used to movement in time. They are the residue of time and time is movement; a movement within the space which it creates as it moves. When the mind sees this, when it sees the futility of all movement in the sense of time, then all movement ends.
这颗头脑，这个运动的容器， 当那运动没有形状、没有‘我’、没有影像、没有图片的时候，它就处于完全地安静中。 它的里面没有记忆。那么，脑细胞们经历一场改变。 脑细胞曾在时间中运动。它们是时间的残留，时间是运动； 一场在空间中的运动，当它运动时，它创造出空间。 当这颗头脑看到这，当它看到这种时间感中的所有运动的徒劳，那么所有的运动结束了。
So when the mind denies totally all movement, therefore all time, all thought, all memory, there is absolute quietness, not relative quietness. Therefore, the question is not how to bring about mutation, but to enquire into the structure of the brain cells. The realization that any movement from the brain cells gives continuity to time itself, puts an end to all movement. Movement is always in the past or in the future - movement from the past through the present to the future. That is all we know and we want change in this movement. We want the movement, and yet we want change in this movement, and therefore the brain cells continue. (Pause)
因此，当这颗头脑彻底地否定了所有的运动，因此所有的时间、所有的思想、所有的记忆， 就有绝对的安静，而不是相对的安静。 因此，问题不在于如何引发突变，而是深入调查脑细胞的这个结构。 意识到脑细胞产生的一切活动都使世界得以延续，就结束了所有的运动。 运动总是在处于‘过去’或‘将来’之中 —— 从‘过去’出发，路过‘现在’，抵达‘将来’。 那就是我们所知道的一切，在这种运动中，我们想要改变。 我们想要这种运动，却又想改变这种运动，因此这些脑细胞们在继续。(停顿)
It is amazingly simple. I do not know if you see this. We all want to complicate it. Any effort to stop movement is contradiction and therefore, time, and therefore no change at all. The seekers have all talked of a higher movement, the hierarchical movement. The question is, can the mind deny to itself all movement?
它异常地简单。我不知道你是否看见这。我们都想把它变复杂。 想要阻止运动的任何一种努力，就是矛盾；因此，时间；因此，根本没有改变。 追寻者都在谈论一种更高级的运动，这种层次化的运动。 这个问题是，这颗头脑能够亲自否定一切运动吗？
You see, as you watch your brain, there is the centre which is completely quiet and yet listening to everything that is going on - the bus, the birds. We want to stop the noise outside but keep on with the inner noise. We want to stop outer movement but carry on with the inner movement. When there is no movement, there is tremendous focus of energy. So mutation is the understanding of movement and the ending of movement in the brain cells themselves.
你看，当你观察你的大脑， 有一个彻底安静的中心，却在听那发生的一切 —— 这公交车、这些鸟儿。我们想要阻止这些外在的噪音，却保留着内在的嘈杂。 我们想要停止外在的运动，却背负着内在的运动。 当没有了运动，能量无尽的汇聚。 因此，突变是脑细胞们亲自理解运动，结束运动。