We were walking in the open gardens near a huge hotel. There was a golden blue in the western sky and the noise of the buses, cars went by. There were young plants full of promise, watered daily. They were still building, creating the gardens and a bird was hovering in the sky, fluttering its wings rapidly before it plunged to the earth; and in the east, there was the nearing of the full moon. What was beautiful was none of these things but the vast emptiness that seemed to hold the earth. What was beautiful was the poor man with his head down, carrying a small bottle of oil.
我们在一家大酒店附近的开放式花园里散步。 西方的天空一片金蓝色，公交车的噪音，来往的汽车。 这里有生气的幼苗，被每天浇灌。 他们仍在建造，创造这个花园 一只鸟在天空中盘旋，飞快地扇动着翅膀，然后坠落到地上； 在东方，现出几乎完全的满月。 美丽的不是这些东西，而是似乎支撑着地球的广阔虚空。 美丽的是那个低着头，拿着一小瓶油的穷人。
K: What does sorrow mean in this country? How do the people in this country meet sorrow? Do they escape from sorrow through the explanation of karma? How does the mind in India operate when it meets sorrow? The Buddhist meets it in one way, the Christian in another way. How does the Hindu mind meet it? Does it resist sorrow, or escape from it? Or does the Hindu mind rationalize it? P: Are there really many ways of meeting sorrow? Sorrow is pain - the pain of someone dying, the pain of separation. Is it possible to meet this pain in various ways?
克：在这个国家，悲伤意味着什么？这个国家的人民如何面对悲伤？ 他们是否通过对业力的解释而逃离悲伤？ 在印度，这颗头脑在遇到悲伤时如何运作？ 佛教徒以一种方式面对它，基督徒以另一种方式迎接它。印度教徒的头脑如何面对它？ 它是抗拒悲伤，还是逃避悲伤？还是将其合理化？ 普：真的有很多种面对悲伤的方法吗？ 悲伤是痛苦 —— 一个人死去的痛苦，别离的痛苦。 有可能以各种方式应对这种痛苦吗？
K: There are various ways of escape but there is only one way of meeting sorrow. The escapes with which we are all familiar are really the ways of avoiding the greatness of sorrow. You see, we use explanations to meet sorrow but these explanations do not answer the question. The only way to meet sorrow is to be without any resistance, to be without any movement away from sorrow, outwardly or inwardly, to remain totally with sorrow, without wanting to go beyond it.
克：有各种逃避悲伤的方法，然而，面对悲伤却只有一种办法。 我们所熟知的逃避，恰好就是避免巨大的悲伤的方法。 你看，我们通过解释来面对悲伤，但这些解释没有回答这个问题。 面对悲伤的唯一办法是处于毫无抵抗的状态， 无论是从外在还是内心，与悲伤保持静止， 完全地与悲伤相处，不想离开它。
P: What is the nature of sorrow? K: There is personal sorrow, the sorrow that comes with the loss of someone you love, the loneliness, the separation, the anxiety for the other. With death there is also the feeling that the other has ceased to be, and there was so much that he wanted to do. All this is personal sorrow. Then there is that man, ill-clad, dirty, with his head down; he is ignorant, ignorant not merely of book knowledge, but deeply, really ignorant. The feeling that one has for the man is not self-pity, nor is there an identification with that man; it is not that you are placed in a better position than he is and so you feel pity for him, but there is within one the sense of the timeless weight of sorrow in man. This sorrow has nothing personal about it. It exists.
普：什么是悲伤的性质？ 克：有私人的悲伤，当你失去你的所爱之人，悲伤即至： 一种孤独，一场离别，一种因他人而引发的焦虑。 伴随着死亡，也有这样的感情：他不在了，他却还有那么多未了的心愿。 这一切，都是私人的悲伤。 那么，那个人，穿得破烂、脏兮兮的、低着脑袋； 他无知，不仅是对书本知识无知，而且是深层地、真正地无知。 一个人对那人怀有的感情既不是自怜，也不是对那个人的同情。 不是由于你比他的处境更好，因此而怜悯他， 而是在一个人的里面，感受到人的悲伤，一种亘古的沉重。 这种悲伤与私人无关。它只是存在着。
P: While you have been speaking, the movement of sorrow has been operating within me. There is no immediate cause for this sorrow but it seems like a shadow, always with man. He lives, he loves, he forms attachments and everything ends. Whatever the truth of what you say, in this there is such an infinitude of sorrow. How is it to end? There appears to be no answer. The other day you said in sorrow is the whole movement of passion. What does it mean?
普：在你说的时候，我内心一直有这种悲伤在跳动。 这种悲伤没有直接的原因，但它却像影子，总是陪伴着人。 他生活，他恋爱，他养成依恋，一切结束。 无论你所说的话有多么地真实，在这里，都有无限的悲伤。 怎么去结束它？看起来没有答案。 前几天，你说，在悲伤中，有一种激情的全部运动，是什么意思？
K: Is there a relationship between sorrow and passion? I wonder what sorrow is. Is there such a thing as sorrow without cause? We know the sorrow which is cause and effect. My son dies; in that is involved my identification with my son, my wanting him to be something which I am not, my seeking continuity through him; and when he dies all that is denied and I find myself completely emptied of all hope. In that there is self-pity, fear; in that there is pain which is the cause of sorrow. This is the lot of everyone. This is what we mean by sorrow.
克：悲伤和激情之间有关系吗？我想知道悲伤是什么。 有没有毫无缘由的悲伤？ 我们知道有作为因果的悲伤。 我的儿子死了；这涉及到我对儿子的认同， 我希望他完成我未了的心愿，我想通过他得以延续； 当他死去，那一切被拒绝了，我发现自己失去了一切希望。 在那种处境中，自怜、恐惧，有缘于悲伤的痛苦。 这就是每个人的宿命。这就是我们所说的悲伤。
Then also there is the sorrow of time, the sorrow of ignorance, not the ignorance of knowledge but the ignorance of one's own destructive conditioning; the sorrow of not knowing oneself; the sorrow of not knowing the beauty that lies at the depth of one's being and the going beyond. Do we see that when we escape from sorrow through various forms of explanation, we are really frittering away an extraordinary happening?
然后，还有时间的悲伤，无知的悲伤， 不是知识上的无知，而是不知道一个人所有的破坏性局限； 不知道自己的悲伤； 不知道存在于一个人生命深处的，并超越自身的美的悲伤。 我们是否看到： 当我们通过各种形式的解释逃离悲伤时， 我们正在糟蹋一个非凡的东西？
P: Then what does one do? K: You have not answered my question, "Is there, a sorrow without cause and effect?" We know sorrow and the movement away from sorrow. P: You have talked of sorrow free of cause and effect. Is there such a state? K: Man has lived with sorrow from immemorial times. He has never known how to deal with it. So he has either worshipped it or run away from it. They are both the same movement. My mind does not do either, nor does it use sorrow as a means of awakening. Then what takes place?
普：那怎么办？ 克：你没有回答我的问题，‘有没有毫无缘由的悲伤？’ 我们知道悲伤和远离悲伤的行为。 普：你讲过毫无缘由的悲伤。有这样的状态吗？ 克：人类自古以来就生活在悲伤中。他从来不知道该怎么处理。 所以他要么崇拜它，要么逃避它。它们都是同样的做法。 我的头脑不这样做，也不把悲伤作为觉醒的一种手段。然后，在发生什么？
P: All other things are the products of our senses. Sorrow is more than that. It is a movement of the heart. K: I am asking you what is the relationship between sorrow and love. P: They are both movements of the heart.
普：其余的一切都是我们感官的产物，悲伤则不止这些。它是心灵的一种运动。 克：我在问你，悲伤和爱是什么关系？ 普：它们都是心灵的运动。
K: What is love and what is sorrow? P: Both are movements of the heart, the one is identified as joy and the other as pain. K: Is love pleasure? Would you say joy and pleasure are the same? Without understanding the nature of pleasure, there is no depth to joy. You cannot invite joy. Joy happens. The happening can be turned into pleasure. When that pleasure is denied, there is the beginning of sorrow.
克：什么是爱？什么是悲伤？ 普：两者都是心灵的运动。其中一个被定义为喜悦，另一个则被定义为痛苦。 克：爱是快乐吗？你会说喜悦和快乐是一样的吗？ 不理解快乐的性质，就没有喜悦的深度。你无法邀请喜悦。喜悦自然而生。 发生的事情可以变成快乐。当这种快乐被剥夺时，悲伤就开始了。
P: At one level it is so, but it is not so at another level. K: As we said, joy is not a thing to be invited. It happens. Pleasure I can invite, pleasure I can pursue. If pleasure is love, then love can be cultivated. P: We know pleasure is not love. Pleasure may be one manifestation of love but it is not love. Both sorrow and love emerge from the same source.
普：在某个层面上是这样的，但在另一个层面上又不是这样。 克：正如我们所说，喜悦是不可邀约的。它自然地发生。 我可以邀请快乐，追求快乐。如果快乐是爱，那么爱就能被培育。 普：我们知道快乐不是爱。 快乐可能是爱的一种表现，但它不是爱。 悲伤和爱来自于同一个源头。
K: I asked what is the relationship between sorrow and love? Can there be love if there is sorrow - sorrow being all the things that we have talked about? P: I would say "yes". K: In sorrow, there is a factor of separation, of fragmentation. Is there not a great deal of self-pity in sorrow? What is the relationship of all this to love? Has love dependency? Has love the quality of the "me" and the "you"?
克：我问的是，悲伤和爱有什么关系？ 当悲伤存在，有爱吗？ —— 悲伤就是我们刚才所探讨的一切。 普：我会说‘有’。 克：在悲伤中，有一种分离因子，分裂因子。难道悲伤中没有大量的自怜吗？ 这一切与爱有什么关系？爱有依赖吗？爱有‘我’和‘你’的品质吗？
P: But you talked of passion...... K: When there is no movement of escape from sorrow then love is. Passion is the flame of sorrow and that flame can only be awakened when there is no escape, no resistance. Which means what? - Which means, sorrow has in it no quality of division.
普：但是你谈到了激情…… 克：当没有逃避悲伤的运动时，爱在。 激情是悲伤的火焰，只有当没有逃避，没有抵抗时，火焰才能被唤醒。 这意味着什么？—— 这意味着，悲伤没有分裂的品质。
P: In that sense, is that state of sorrow any different from the state of love? Sorrow is pain. You say when in that pain there is no resistance, no movement away from pain, the flame of passion emerges. Strangely in the ancient texts, kama (love), agni (fire), and yama (death) are said to be the same; they are placed on the same level; they are all identical; they create, purify and destroy to create again. There has to be an ending.
普：从这个意义上说，这种悲伤的状态与爱的状态有什么不同吗？悲伤就是痛苦。 你说，当在痛苦中没有抵抗，没有远离痛苦的运动时，激情的火焰就会出现。 奇怪的是，在古代文献中，据说kama（爱），烈火（火）和yama（死亡）是相同的。 它们被放在同一个平面上；它们都是相同的； 它们创造，净化，破坏以再次创造。一直在结束。
K: You see, that is just it. What is the relationship of a mind which has understood sorrow and therefore the ending of sorrow? What is the quality of the mind that is no longer afraid of ending, which is death? When energy is not dissipated through escape, then that energy becomes the flame of passion. Compassion means passion for all. Compassion is passion for all.
克：你看，就是这样。 一颗理解悲伤，从而结束悲伤的头脑是什么关系？ 不再害怕终结，也就是不怕死的头脑，具有什么品质？ 当能量没有通过逃逸而消散时，这种能量就会变成激情的火焰。 慈意味着对一切的激情。慈就是弥漫一切的激情。
P: I was considering whether it would be worthwhile to discuss the ancient Indian attitude to alchemy and mutation and to see whether the findings of alchemy have any relevance to what you are saying. It is significant that Nagarjuna, one of the great propounders of Buddhist thought, was himself an alchemist Master. The search of the alchemist in India was not directed so much to turning base metal into gold, as to an investigation into certain psychophysical and chemical processes in which, through mutation the body and mind could be made free of the ravages of time and the processes of decay. The field of investigation included mastery of breath, the partaking of an elixir brewed in the laboratory, a substance wherein mercury played a vital part, and a triggering of an explosion in consciousness. The action of the three leads to a mutation of body and mind. The symbolism used by the alchemist was sexual; mercury was the male seed of Shiva, mica the seed of the goddess; the union of the two, not only physically and in the crucibles of the laboratory but in consciousness itself, brought into being a mutation; a state that was free of time and the processes of ageing, a state that was unrelated to the two constituents that in total union had triggered the mutation. Has this any relevance to what you are saying? K: You are asking about the state of consciousness which is out of time.
普：我在考虑是否值得 讨论古印度人对炼金术和突变的态度，看看炼金术的发现是否与你所说的有任何关系。 值得注意的是，龙树菩萨是佛教思想的伟大倡导者之一，他本人就是一位炼金术士大师。 印度炼金术士的探索，与其说是将贱金属变成黄金， 至于对某些精神理物学和化学过程的调查，其中， 通过突变，身体和心灵可以摆脱时间的蹂躏和腐化过程。 调查的领域包括掌握呼吸，参与实验室酿造的长生不老药， 汞是在其中发挥了重要作用的一种物质，并触发意识的爆炸。 三者的作用导致了身心的突变。 炼金术士使用的符号是性象征的； 水星是湿婆的雄性种子，云母是女神的种子； 两者的结合， 不仅是在物理上，在实验室的坩埚中，也在意识的自身内， 带来了突变； 一种没有时间和衰老过程的状态， 一种与完全联合触发突变的两个成分无关的状态。 这与你所说的有什么关系吗？ 克：你问的是超越时间的意识状态。
P: In every individual one can see the male and female element in operation. The alchemist saw the need of union, of balance. Is there any validity in this? K: I think one can observe this in oneself. I have often observed that in each one of us there are the male and female elements. Either they are in perfect balance or in a state of imbalance. When there is this complete balance between the male and the female, then the physical organism never really falls ill; there may be superficial illness but deep within there is no disease which destroys the organism. This is probably what the ancients must have sought - identifying it with mercury and mica, the male and the female and through meditation, study, and perhaps through some form of medicine tried to bring about this perfect harmony. One can see very clearly in oneself the operation of the male and female going on. When one or the other gets exaggerated, the imbalance creates disease; not superficial ailments but disease at the depths. I have noticed personally within myself under different situations and climates, with different people who are aggressive, violent, the female takes over and becomes more prominent. This prominence, the other uses to assert himself. But when there is too much femininity around one, the male does not become aggressive but withdraws without any resistance.
普：在每个人的身上，一个人都能看到有男性因子和女性因子在运转。 炼金术士看到了结合和平衡的必要性。这其中有价值吗？ 克：我想一个人能从自己的身上看到这一点。 我经常看到：我们每个人身上都存在着男性因子和女性因子。 它们要么处于完美的平衡状态，要么处于失衡的状态。 当男性因子与女性因子之间有完整的平衡时， 那么这个生命有机体就绝不会真正地生病； 也许存在表面的些微不适，但是体内没有破坏有机体的疾病。 也许，这必定就是古人所寻求的东西 —— 通过水银和云母来代表它， 男性和女性，通过冥想，研究， 也许通过某些药物的形式，试图达到这种完美的平衡。 一个人可以清晰地看到自己体内男性因子和女性因子的运作。 如果其中一个或另一个因子被放大，这种失衡导致生病； 不是表面上的不适，而是深层的疾病。 我注意到，当我处于不同的情形和环境， 与另一群攻击性强烈而暴力的人们在一起的时候，我内心的女性因子就起着主导作用，显得更加突出。 这种突出性，另一个人用来维护他自己。 但是当一个人周围的女性因子很多的时候， 男性就变得不具有攻击性，而是没有抵抗地回退。
S: What are the male and female elements? K: The male is generally aggressive, violent, dominating and the female is the quiet, which is taken for submissiveness and then exploited by man. But submissiveness which is taken to be the quality of the female, is really gentleness which gradually conquers the other. When the female and the male are in complete harmony, the quality of both changes. It is no longer male or female. It is something totally different, in relation to what is considered as male and female. The male and the female as the positive and negative because of their very nature are dualistic, whereas the complete balance, a harmony of the two has a different quality. May I say something?
苏: 什么是男性因子和女性因子？ 克：一般来说，男性是进攻性的、暴力的、专横的； 而女性则是安静的，这点被认为是顺从，并被男人所利用。 但这种被认为是女性特质的顺从，实际上是温柔，它逐渐地征服了男性。 当男性和女性完全和谐之时，两者的特质就变异了，就不再是男性和女性。 它是某种完全不同的东西，与我们所知的男性和女性无关。 男性和女性被当作阴阳两极，是因为它们的性质是相对的； 然而这种完全的平衡，两者的和谐，具有一种不同的品质。 我可以说下去吗？
It is like the quality of the earth in which everything lives but is not of it. I have noticed this operating very often. When the whole mind withdraws from the physical and the environment, it is as though it is very far away; far away not in space and time, but a state which nothing can touch. This state is not an abstraction nor a withdrawal but an inward, absolute, non-being. When this perfect harmony takes place, because there is no conflict, it has its own vitality. It does not destroy the other. So conflict is not only in the outer but also in the inner and when this conflict completely comes to an end, there is a mutation which is not touched by time.
如同大地的这种品质，万物生长于其上，却又不属于它。 我经常注意到这种运作。 当这颗头脑完全地从这个身体和环境中回撤的时候，仿佛是非常的遥远， 不是指空间和时间上的遥远，而是一种无法触及的状态。 这种状态既非抽象，也不是撤退，而是一种内在，绝对，虚无。 当这种完美的和谐发生时，因为没有冲突，它有它自己的活力。 它没有摧毁另一个。 由于冲突不仅存在于外部，也存在于内部。 当冲突完全结束的时候，就有一种与时间无关的突变。
P: The alchemist called this the birth of Kumara, of the magical child - he who never grows old, he who is completely innocent. K: It is very interesting - but alchemy has become synonymous with so much phony magic. P: But the alchemists, the Masters who were known as rasa siddhas - the holders of the essence - maintained that what they described they had seen with their own eyes, that what they recorded was not from hearsay nor from the dictation of a teacher. There is another factor of interest. A great deal of attention was paid in alchemy to the instrument, the vessel. The science of metallurgy developed out of this - one of the vessels or yantras was known as the garbha yantra, the womb vessel. It is a key word in alchemy.
普：炼金术士把这个过程称为圣童的诞生，魔力孩童 —— 他永不变老，完全的天真。 克：这非常有趣 —— 但是炼金术已经与很多骗人的戏法成了同义词。 普：但是炼金术士们，被称为掌握精华的大师们， —— 坚持认为他们所描述的事物是他们亲眼所见， 他们所记录的事情并不是道听途说的，也不是来自师傅的描述。 还有另一个有趣的因子。 在炼金术中，有大量的注意力花费在那个被称之为‘容器’的器物上。 冶金学就是从这里发源的 —— 其中一个容器或者器具被看作是子宫容器。 它是炼金术的一个关键词。
K: Is there such a thing as preparing the womb of the mind? in which time is involved. P: The alchemists were also conscious that at the point of mutation, of the fixation of mercury, of the birth of the timeless, time was not involved. K: Do not use the word preparation. Let us put it this way. Is there a necessary state, a necessary background, a necessary vessel which can contain this? I should say no, because when they found the boy Krishnamurti, the people who were supposedly clairvoyant for the time being, saw that he had no quality of selfishness and therefore he was worthy of being the vessel and I think that has remained right through.
克：有那种为了孕育头脑而提前准备好的子宫吗？这其中可涉及到时间。 普：炼金术士也同样意识到： 在那突变的一刻，在水银的凝固点，在永恒诞生的瞬间，与时间无关。 克：别用‘准备’这个词。让我们这样表述它： 是否存在一种必要的状态，一种必备的背景，一种必要的容器来容纳？ 我会说不存在， 因为，当那些据称有眼通能力的人们，当他们发现那个叫做‘克里希那穆提’的孩子时， 看见他没有自私的品质，因而认为他值得成为容器。 而我想，那始终都在。
S: That may be so, but what about ordinary people like us? Is this a privilege given only to a very very few, one in a thousand years or more, or can this happen to people who are concerned with all this, who are committed to all this, who are really serious in this enquiry?
苏: 可能是那样吧，但是像我们这样的普通人，有什么办法？ 这是一种属于极少数人的特禀吗，千年或更长的时期才会出现这样一个人？ 还是它能够发生在那些关心这一切，投身于这一切，严谨质询这件事情的人身上?
K: To answer this question certain physical factors and psychological states are necessary. Physically there must be sensitivity. Physical sensitivity cannot possibly take place when there is smoking, drinking, eating meat. The sensitivity of the body must be maintained. That is absolutely essential. Traditionally such a body generally remains in one place supported by disciples, by the family. The body is not shocked or exposed.
克：要回答这个问题，某些生理因素和心理状态是必要的。 身体必须是敏感的。 如果吸烟、喝酒、吃肉，那么就不可能有身体的敏感。 这种身体的敏感度必须得以维持。那是必备的根基。 按照传统的说法，像这样的身体一般是居留在由弟子们和家人所支持的地方。 这样的身体没有受到惊吓或暴露。
Can a man who is very serious in all this, can he with a body which has gone through the normal brutalizing effects, can he make that body highly sensitive? And also the psyche that has been wounded through experience, can it throw off all the wounds and marks and renew itself so that there is a state in which there is no hurt? These two are essential - sensitivity and the psyche not having a mark. I think this can be achieved by any person who is really serious. You see the womb is always ready to conceive. It renews itself. P: Like the earth, the womb has that inbuilt quality of renewal.
一个对这一切非常严肃的人 他和他的身体能经受住了正常的残酷的考验吗？ 他能保持身体高度的敏感吗？ 同时，那被受过伤害的心灵 能否抛开所有的伤害和痕迹，并更新它自己，以处于一种没有伤害的状态？ 这两个方面是基础 —— 敏感性和心灵没有一丝痕印。 我想这能够被任何严谨的人达成。 你看，子宫随时准备着孕育，它在更新它自己。 普：像大地一样，这个子宫具有自我更新的内在品质。
K: I think the mind has exactly the same quality. P: The earth is dormant, the womb is quiet and in both there is this inbuilt capacity for renewal. K: The earth, the womb and the mind are of the same quality. When the earth lies fallow and the womb is empty and the mind without any movement, then renewal takes place. When the mind is completely empty, it is like the womb; it is pure to renew, receive.
克：我想这颗头脑也恰恰具有同样的品质。 普：大地是静止的，子宫是安静的，而两者都具有自我更新的内在品质。 克：土地、子宫和头脑具有这种相同的品质。 当土地休耕，子宫空置，头脑没有任何运动的时候，那么，更新就发生了。 当头脑完全地虚无，它就像子宫；它纯洁，更新，受孕。
P: This then is the vessel, the receptacle. K: Yes, this is the vessel, but when you use the word vessel and receptacle, you must be exceedingly careful. This inbuilt quality of the mind to renew itself can be called eternal youth. P: It is known as kumara vidya.
普：那么，这就是器皿，是容器。 克：是的，这就是器皿。当你使用‘器皿’一词的时候，你必须非常小心。 头脑的这种内在品质可以被称作永恒的年轻。 普：它被认为是圣童之道。
K: So what makes the mind old? Obviously the movement of the self makes the mind old. P: Does the self wear away the cells? K: The womb is always ready to receive. It has a quality of purifying itself all the time, but the mind which is burdened with the self - friction is self - has no space to renew itself. When the self is so occupied with itself and its activities, the mind has no space in which to renew itself. So space is necessary, both for the physical and the psyche. How does this go with alchemy?
克：那么是什么让头脑变老？很明显，是自我的活动导致了头脑衰老。 普：自我会损耗这些细胞吗？ 克：子宫随时准备受孕。它总是具有净化它自己的品质。 但是被自我压着的头脑 —— 摩擦就是自我 —— 没有空间进行它自己的更新。 当这个自我被它自己和它的活动所占据的时候，这颗头脑就没有空间进行更新。 因此，空间是必需的，身体和心灵都需要空间。这些与炼金术相符合吗?
P: The language they use is different. They talk of mutation through union. K: All that implies effort, friction. P: How does one know? K: If it implies any form of process, any form of achievement, it implies effort.
普：他们使用的语言不同。他们说，通过结合实现突变。 克：那一切意味着努力，摩擦。 普：一个人怎么知道？ 克：如果它暗含了任何形式的过程，任何形式的成就，那么它就意味着努力。
P: One of the most vital problems that has concerned man is the necessity of containing evil. It appears as if at certain times in history, because of various circumstances, evil has had a wider field within which to operate. The manifestations of evil are so wide, the problems of evil so complex that the individual does not know how to deal with them. What would you say is the way of dealing with evil? Is there such a thing as evil independent of good?
普：人所关心的一个很重要的问题是：对邪恶的控制。 它看起来，在历史的某一时间轴上， 由于多变的环境，使得邪恶有广袤的运作空间。 邪恶的展现如此宽广，邪恶的问题如此繁杂， 以至于人不知道如何处理它们。 对于邪恶的处理，你怎么看？是否存在着邪恶，这种独立于善良之外的东西？
K: I wonder what you mean. The bush with so many thorns - do you call that evil? Do you call a serpent with poison, evil? No savage animal is evil - neither the shark nor the tiger. So what do you mean by the word evil? Something harmful? Something that can bring tremendous grief, something that can bring great pain, something that can destroy or prevent the light of understanding? Would you call war evil? Would you call the generals, the rulers, the admirals evil because they help to bring about war, destruction? P: That which thwarts the nature of things can be called evil.
克：我想知道你是什么意思。灌木丛中有很多刺，你把那称之为邪恶吗？ 你把毒蛇称之为邪恶吗？没有一种野兽是邪恶的 —— 鲨鱼或老虎都不是。 因此，你所说的‘邪恶’是什么意思？是指有害的东西吗？ 某种带来巨大的忧虑，巨大的痛苦的东西？ 某种能摧毁或阻碍理解之明的东西？ 你会把战争称之为邪恶吗？ 你会把将军、统治者、司令称之为邪恶吗，因为他们为战争和毁灭推波助澜？ 普：那阻碍事物本性的，都可以称之为邪恶。
K: Man is brutal, is he evil? P: If he is thwarting, if he through malignant intention makes certain things deviate.... K: I was just wondering what that word evil means. What does evil mean to an intelligent mind; a mind that is aware of all the horrors in the world? P: Evil is that which diminishes consciousness, that which brings darkness.
克：男人很粗蛮，他邪恶吗？ 普：如果他在阻碍，如果他通过某种不好的意图，做了某些不对的事情…… 克：我只是想知道 "邪恶" 这个词是什么意思。 对一个智慧的头脑，一个意识到世界上所有的恐怖的头脑，邪恶意味着什么？ 普：邪恶禁锢着意识，从而带来了黑暗。
K: Fear, sorrow, pain do that. Would you say that evil is the encouragement of fear? Is evil a means to further sorrow? Is evil social or environmental conditioning which perpetuates war? All these limit consciousness and create darkness and sorrow. Evil, according to the Christian idea, is the devil. Does the Hindu have any idea of evil? If he has an idea of evil, what would it be? Personally I never think of evil. Would you say that in the flowering of goodness, there is no evil at all? That this state does not know evil? Or is evil an invention of the mind which breeds fear and creates the good?
克：那是恐惧、悲伤和痛苦所引起的。你是说邪恶助长了恐惧？ 邪恶是加深悲伤的一种方式吗？ 邪恶是使战争持续存活的社会或环境限制吗？ 这一切都使意识受到局限并制造出黑暗和悲伤。 在基督教的观念中，邪恶就是魔鬼。 印度教有邪恶的观念吗？如果他有邪恶的观念，那是指什么？就我个人而言，我从来没有想过邪恶。 你是不是说：在善良的绽放中，完全没有邪恶？也就是这种状态对邪恶一无所知？ 或者邪恶是头脑的一种发明，是它滋生出恐惧并创造出善良？
P: May I say something? If you go deep down into the recesses of the human mind, into the history of mankind, there has always been the sorcerer, the witch who subverts the laws of nature, who brings fear and darkness. It is one of the strangest elements in the human mind. It is because of this terrible fear of the unknown, that darkness without limit, without end, that prevails through the history of man, that the human being has cried out for protection; a cry that echoes through human consciousness. It is this which is the unknown, un-named matrix of fear. It is not enough to suggest that it is fear. It is all that and more.
普：我可以说几句吗? 如果潜入人类的头脑深处，潜入人类的历史， 总会发现一些颠覆自然法则，带来黑暗与恐惧的巫师和女巫。 它是人类头脑中最陌生的因素之一。 出于对未知的恐惧，那无边际、没有尽头的黑暗的恐惧， 遍布于人类历史之中，人尖叫地呼求着保护； 这种叫声在人类的意识里回荡。 它就是未知，莫名恐惧的发源地。 把它当成恐惧是不够的，它是那一切，以及更多。
K: Are you saying that deep in man, in the inner recesses of the mind, there is the fear of the unknown, of something that man cannot touch or imagine? Being afraid so deeply, he demands protection of the gods and anything that brings an awakening of that danger, any intimation of that hidden thing, he calls evil? P:This darkness exists deep in human consciousness all the time. K: Is evil the opposite of the good, or is it totally dependent of the good? P: It is independent of the good.
克：你是说在人类的头脑深处， 存在对未知的恐惧，某种无法触及和想象的东西？ 出于这种深度的恐惧，他要求得到保护 —— 从神灵或任何能提醒他那种危险、那隐含着的，被称之为‘邪恶’的东西？ 普：这种黑暗总是存在于人类的意识深处。 克：邪恶与善良相反吗？或者，它完全独立于善良而存在? 普：邪恶是独立于善良存在的。
K:You are saying it is independent. So, is evil something that is in itself unrelated to the beautiful, to love? Against evil, man has always sought protection, as he would against an animal. There is this hidden dark danger. Man is aware of it, he is frightened and seeks through incantations, rituals, prayers and so on to put it away and be guarded. The bush that is so full of thorns protects itself against the animal and the animal would call that evil as it cannot get at the leaves. Is there such a force, such an embodiment of evil which is totally apart from the good, the beautiful? There is this whole idea that evil is fighting good. This evil is seen as embodied in people and evil is always fighting the good and the gentle. I am asking, is evil totally independent of the good? You must be very careful not to become superstitious.
克：你说它是独立的。因此，在邪恶之中，没有与美和爱相关的东西吗？ 为了抵抗邪恶，就像对抗野兽一样，人类总是寻求保护。 存在着隐藏于黑暗中的危险。 人知道这点，感到恐怖，并试图通过咒语、仪式、祈祷等等，以驱散邪恶，受到庇佑。 遍布荆棘的灌木丛用刺保护自己，阻隔动物，动物因为无法吃到它的叶子而称它为邪恶。 是否存在这样一种力量或邪恶的化身，完全无关于善和美？ 世界上存在着邪恶在对抗善良的这整套观念。 这种邪恶化身成人，邪恶总是在对抗着善良和温柔。 我在问：邪恶是否完全独立于善良而存在？你必须非常小心地回答，不要变得迷信。
P: "Fear" of something is opposed to goodness. But the darkest fears are not "of anything". S: It is not only protection and fear and the fear involved in evil, but protection in order to move forward. P: The demand for protection, the mantras as spells, the mandalas as magical diagrams and the mudras as magical gestures were intended to provide protection against evil.
普：对某个东西的恐惧，是与善良相反的。但是最幽暗的恐惧不属于任何东西。 苏：这种保护，不只是为了(抵抗)恐惧，那被包藏在邪恶中恐惧，还包含着向前移动的护甲。 普：对保护的需求，作为符咒的经文，作为魔法图的曼陀罗 以及作为魔法手势的舞姿，都是为了提供庇佑，对抗邪恶。
K: You see when you go deeply into consciousness, you reach a point where the unknown appears as the dark, and there you stop, because you get frightened. The mind penetrates deeply up to a point, and below that point there is this feeling of dark emptiness. Because of the darkness, you have prayers, incantations, and because of the fear of the dark, you ask for protection. Can the mind go through the darkness, which means can the mind not be afraid? Can it operate so that the darkness becomes light? Can you penetrate the darkness of which you are afraid, which you have named "evil"? Can you penetrate that so completely that darkness does not exist? Then, what is evil?
克：你看，当你潜入到意识的深层，到达如同幽深的未知处， 你停下在这里，因为你受到了惊恐。 这颗头脑刺入并触碰到这一点，再往下就是幽暗的虚无感。 因为这幽暗，你祷告、符咒； 因为对幽暗的恐惧，你寻求庇佑。 这颗头脑能够穿越这幽深吗？也就是说头脑能够不害怕吗？ 它能够运转，以使幽暗变成光明吗？ 你能够刺透你所恐惧的这种幽暗，也就是你称之为‘邪恶’的那个东西吗？ 你能够彻底穿透，以使那黑暗不存在吗？ 那么，什么是邪恶？
P: When the ritual mandala is drawn, the entry into the mandala is through spell and mudra. In this entry into the darkness, what is the spell which will open the gates? K: Consciousness as thought, investigates itself - its depth. As it enters it comes upon this darkness. This investigation is not a process of time. And you are asking what is the spell or energy that will penetrate to the very bottom of the darkness, what is that energy and how is it to come into being? The very energy which started investigating is still there, more heavy, vital as it enters, penetrates. Why do you ask whether there is need of greater energy? P: Because energy dries up. We penetrate up to a point and do not go further.
普：当仪式中的魔法图被绘制出来，进入阵图要通过咒语和手势。 在进入黑暗的过程中，是什么咒语开启了黑暗之门？ 克：意识如同思想，调查它本身 —— 它的深度。 随着它的深入，它遭遇这种黑暗。这种调查与时间无关。 而你问: 是什么咒语或能量会穿透到黑暗的最底层？ 那种能量是什么，它是如何产生的？ 那种能量，在开始调查的时候，就已经存在，随着调查的深入和刺透，它变得更厚重和活泼。 为什么你问：是否需要更大的能量？ 普：因为能量的枯竭，我们穿透到了某一点就无法再深入。
K: Because of fear, because of apprehension of something we do not know, we dissipate energy instead of bringing it into focus. I want to penetrate into myself. I see entering into myself is the same movement as the outer. It is entering into space. In entering into space, there is a certain demand, a certain energy. That energy must be without any effort, without any distortion. As it enters, it gathers momentum. If it has no passage through which it can escape, it is not distorted. It becomes deeper, wider, stronger. Then you reach a point where there is darkness. And how does one enter that darkness with this tremendous energy? (pause)
克：因为恐惧，因为对未知的焦虑，我们浪费了能量而没有使它聚焦。 我想要穿透我自身。我看到进入自身的内在和进入外在的运动是同样的运动。都是进入空无。 进入空无之中，存在某种需求，一种能量。 那种能量必须没有任何的努力，没有任何的扭曲。 随着它的进入，它积聚着动力。 如果没有逃窜的通道，它就不会受到扰乱。它变得更深，更广，更强大。 那么，你到达一点，那就是黑暗。 一个人如何利用这巨大的能量进入这种黑暗？(停顿)
P: The first question with which we started was how is evil to be contained. You have said as one penetrates the sea of darkness, darkness is not; light is. But when there is evil in human beings, in certain situations, in certain happenings, is there any action which can contain this evil?
普：我们刚开始时探讨的第一个问题是: 如何抑制邪恶？ 你说：只要一个人穿透黑暗之海，黑暗就不存在，而光明存在。 但是当人类本身存在邪恶，在某种情况下，在某种遭遇中，有可以抑制这种邪恶的行为吗？
K: I would not put it that way. Resistance to evil strengthens evil. So, if the mind is living in goodness, then there is no resistance and evil cannot touch it. Therefore there is no containing of evil.
克：我不会那么表述。 抵抗会使邪恶更加强大。 所以，如果这颗头脑活在善良中，那么就没有抵抗，而邪恶不能污染它。 因此就不存在对邪恶的抑制。
P: Is there only goodness then? K: We have to go back to something else - the mind has gone into darkness and it is finished with darkness. But is there evil which is independent of all that? Or is evil part of goodness? You see in nature there is the big living on the little, the bigger on the big. I would not call that evil. The deliberate desire to hurt another; is that part of evil? I want to hurt another; is that part of evil? I want to hurt you because you have done something to me; is that evil?
普：那就只存在善良了？ 克：我们要回到另外的一件事情上 —— 这颗头脑穿透黑暗，结束黑暗。 但是否存在独立于那一切以外的邪恶？或者，邪恶是善良的一部分？ 你看，在自然界中，大生物以小生物为食，而其本身又是更大型生物的美餐。我不会称那为邪恶。 蓄意伤人的意图，那是邪恶的一部分吗？ 我想害别人；那是邪恶的一部分吗？ 我想伤害你，因为你对我做了某些事情，那是邪恶吗？
P: That is part of evil. K: Then that implies will. You hurt me, and, because I am proud, I want to retaliate. Wanting to retaliate is an action of will. Whether it is the will to react or to do good, both are evil. P: Again coming back to the mandala; evil can enter when the gateways are not protected. Here, your eyes and ears are the gateways.
普：那是一种邪恶。 克：那么，那就意味着意志。你伤害我，但因为我的骄傲，我想报复。 想要报复就是一种意志的行为。 想要报复的意向，或者想要做好事的意向，都是邪恶。 普：让我们再次回到魔法图上； 邪恶能够在大门没有防护的时候乘虚而入。在这儿，你的眼睛和耳朵就是大门。
K: So you are saying when the eyes see clearly, ears hear clearly, then evil cannot enter. To go back, the deliberate intention, the collection of intentions, the thinking it over, which is all the deep intention to hurt, is part of will. I think that is where evil is - the deliberate act to hurt. You hurt me, I hurt you; I apologize and it is finished. But if I hold, retain, strengthen deliberately, follow a policy to hurt you, which is part of the will in man to do harm or good, then there is evil.
克：所以你是说：当眼睛看得清楚，耳朵听得清楚的时候，邪恶就不能进入。 回过头来看， 这种蓄意的谋划、一套算计， 这种深思熟虑，也就是蓄意伤害的深层意图，就是意志的一部分。 我认为那就是邪恶的藏身之处 —— 蓄意伤害的行为。 你伤害我，我伤害你；我道歉，然后结束。 但是， 如果我握住，保留，蓄意地强化，遵循一种策略去伤害你 —— 也就是人的意志 —— 想伤害，或想做好事的意志 那么，就出现了邪恶。
So is there a way of living without will? The moment I resist, evil must be on one side, and the good on the other and there is relationship between the two. When there is no resistance, there is no relationship between the two. And love then is an open space, without any words, without any resistance. Love is action out of emptiness. As we had been discussing yesterday, when the male elements deliberately become assertive, demanding, possessive, dominating, man invites evil. And the female, yielding, yielding, yielding and deliberately yielding in order to dominate, also invites evil. So, where there is the cunning pursuit of domination, which is the operation of will, there is the beginning of evil.
因此，有没有一种毫无意志的生活方式？ 在我抵抗的瞬间，邪恶必定在某一边，而善良在另一边，这两者之间就产生了联系。 当没有了抵抗，这两者就没有关系。 而爱是一处开放的空间，没有任何言语，没有任何的抵抗。爱属于虚无中的行动。 正如我们昨天所讨论的， 当男性因子刻意变得自负、苛求、占有、控制，人就在邀请邪恶。 而女性因子的服从，服从，再服从，为了支配而故意去服从，同样在邀请邪恶。 因此，哪里存在对支配权的狡猾的追求，哪里就有意志的运作，就有邪恶的萌生。
You see against that evil we try to protect ourselves. We are ourselves creating evil and yet we draw a circle a diagram round the doorstep of the house to seek protection from evil, and inwardly the serpent of evil is operating. Keep your house clean. Forget all the mantras; nothing can touch you. We ask protection of the gods whom we have created. It is really quite fantastic.
你看，为了对抗邪恶，我们尝试保护我们自己。 我们自己创造出邪恶， 却又在屋子的门阶处勾画护身符，以寻求抵抗邪恶的庇佑， 殊不知邪恶的毒蛇正在屋内爬行。 把你的屋子打扫干净。忘掉所有的咒符，没有什么能碰到你。 我们要求自己创造的神来保护我们，真是相当的奇葩。
All these wars, all the racial hatreds, all the accumulated hatreds which man has been storing up, that must have a collected hatred, a gathered evil. The Hitlers, the Mussolinis, the Stalins, the concentration camps, the Atillas; all that must be stored, must have a body somewhere.
所有的战争，所有的种族仇恨，所有的人类从古到今所积攒的一切怨恨， 必然产生仇恨的聚集，一种复合的邪恶。 那些希特勒们、墨索里尼们、斯大林们、集中营们、阿提拉们； 那一切必然被储蓄，必然在某处存在着一个团体。
So also, the feeling of "do not kill, be kind, be gentle, be compassionate" - that also must be stored somewhere. When people try to protect themselves against the one, the evil, they are protecting themselves against the good too, because man has created these two. So, can the mind enter into darkness and the very entrance into it, is the dispelling of darkness?
同样，这种‘不要杀戮、要与人为善、温和、心怀同情’的感情 —— 那也必然在某处被积蓄。 当人们尝试保护他们自己，以反对那一个、那个邪恶的时候， 他们也在保护他们自己，以对抗善良， 因为是人创造了这两者。 因此，这颗头脑能进入黑暗中吗？在进入的那一瞬，就是黑暗的消散。