P: Yesterday, while you were on a walk, you said the first step is the last step. To understand that statement, I think we should investigate the problem of time and whether there is such a thing as a final state of enlightenment. The confusion arises because our minds are conditioned to think of illumination as the final state. Is understanding or illumination a final state?
普：你昨天散步时，曾说，第一步就是最后一步。 要理解它， 我想，我们应调查时间，以及是否有一种最终的觉醒状态。 在思考这种最终的觉醒状态的时候，我们的头脑就受到了限制，由此而产生出困惑。 理解或觉悟是一种最终的状态吗？
K: You know, when we said that the first step is the last step, were we not thinking of time as a horizontal or a vertical movement? Were we not thinking of movement along a plane? We were saying yesterday, when we were walking, if we could put aside height, the vertical and the horizontal altogether, and observe this fact that wherever we are, at whatever level of conditioning, of being, the perceiving of truth, of the fact, is at that moment the last step.
克：你可知道，当我们说第一步就是最后一步的时候， 我们并不认为时间是一种水平或垂直的运动， 我们并不认为思考是一种水平面上的运动？ 我们昨天谈到，在我们散步的时候， 如果我们能够把抛弃高度，这种在垂直上和水平上的衡量尺度，并观察这个事实： 无论我们在哪里，在哪种层面的局限上，在哪种状态下， 那真正的、实际的感知，就是最后一步。
I am a clerk in a little office, with all the misery involved in it; the clerk listens and perceives. The man listens and at that moment really sees. That seeing and that perception is the first and the last step. Because, at that moment he has touched truth and he sees something very clearly.
我是一个小厂的职工，被其中所有的悲苦缠缚； 这位职工听，感知。这个人听，在那一刻，真实地在看。 那个看，那个感知，是开始，也是最后一步。 因为，在那个瞬间，他触碰到真理，很清晰地看见某个东西。
But what happens afterwards is that he wants to cultivate that state. The perception, the liberation and the very perception bringing about liberation; he wants to perpetuate, to turn it into a process. And therefore he gets caught and loses the quality of perception entirely.
但是，在那发生之后，他想要培养那种状态。 那种感知，那种解放，那个看带来了解放； 他想要保存，把它变成一个过程。 因此，他失陷了，并完全地失去了感知的品质。
So, what we are saying is that any process involves finality. It is a movement from the horizontal to the vertical; the vertical leading to a finality. And therefore we think that perception, liberation is a finality; a point which has no movement. After all, the methods, the practices, the systems imply a process towards a finality. If there were no conceptual idea of finality, there would be no process.
因此，我们在说，任何一个过程里面都包含着终点。 它是一种在水平或垂直方向上的运动；方向指示出终点。 因此，我们认为那个感知，那种解放是一个终点；一个不动的点。 毕竟，所有的方法、训练、系统都暗示着一个终点。 如果没有概念上的终点，就不会有过程。
P: The whole structure of thought is built on a horizontal movement and therefore any postulation of eternity has to be on the horizontal plane. K: We are used to reading a book horizontally. Everything is horizontal - all our books. P: Everything has a beginning and an ending.
普：整个思想构造都是建立在水平运动上的。 因此，对永恒的任何假设，必然在这个水平面上。 克：我们习惯于水平地阅读一本书。一切的是水平的 —— 我们所有的书籍。 普：任何事情都有一个起点和终点。
K: And we think the first chapter must inevitably lead to the last chapter. We feel all the practices lead to a finality; to an unfoldment. It is all horizontal reading. Our minds, eyes and attitudes are conditioned to function on the horizontal and at the end, there is a finality. The book is over. You ask if truth or enlightenment is a final achievement; a final point beyond which there is nothing?
克：我们以为第一章不可避免地导向最后一章。 我们认为所有的训练都会导向一个终点，一种展现。这些都是水平的阅读。 我们的头脑、眼睛和态度被限制在水平面上运转，最终，到达一个终点。 这本书读完了。 你问：真理，或者觉悟，是不是一种最终的成就、一个别无它物的终点？
P: From which there can be no slipping back. I might for an instant perceive, and the quality of that, I understand. A little later, thought arises again. I say to myself "I am back in the old state". I question whether that "touching" had any validity at all. I put a distance, a block between myself and that state - I say, if that were true, thought would not arise.
普：在那里，是不能滑落的。 我可能有一瞬间感知，触及到那种品质，我理解了那。 过了一会儿，思想又出现了。我对我自己说‘我回到了以前的状态’。 我怀疑那种‘触及’是不是有一丝效果。 在我自己和那种状态之间，我插进了一段距离，一个障碍物 —— 我说，如果那是真的，思想就不会出现。
K: I see; I perceive something that is extraordinary; something that is true. I want to perpetuate that perception; give it a continuity so that perception - action continues throughout my daily life. I think that is where the mistake lies. The mind has seen something true. That is enough. That mind is a clear, innocent mind, which has not been hurt. Thought wants to carry on that perception through the daily acts. The mind has seen something very clearly. Leave it there. The next step is the final step. The leaving of it is the next final step. Because my mind is already fresh to take the next final step. In the daily movement of life, it does not carry over. The perception has not become knowledge.
克：我看见，我感知到某个非凡的东西，某个真实的东西。 我想要永远保持那样的感知； 使它延续，那样的话，让那种感知 —— 那种行为在我的日常生活中延续。 我想那就是错误所在。这颗头脑已经见到某些真实的东西，那就足够了。 那颗头脑是一颗清晰的，纯真的头脑，没有受到伤害。 思想想要通过日常的活动来维持那种感知。 这颗头脑已经非常清楚地看到某个东西，把它放在了那儿。 下一步就是最后一步。放下它，就是接下来的最后一步。 因为我的头脑已经清新如初，处理这接下来的最后一步。 在生命的日常运作中，它不背负任何东西。 这种感知，没有变成知识。
P: The self as the doer in relation to thought or seeing has to cease. K: Die to the thing that is true. Otherwise it becomes memory, which then becomes thought, and thought says how am I to perpetuate that state. If the mind sees clearly, and it can only see clearly when the seeing is the ending of it, then the mind can start a movement where the first step is the last step. In this there is no process involved at all. There is no element of time. Time enters when, having seen it clearly, having perceived it, there is a carrying over and the applying of it to the next incident. P: The carrying over is the not seeing or perceiving.
普：这个自我，作为与思想或被观察者相关联的这个行为主体，必须消亡。 克：死于那真实的东西。 否则，它就变成了记忆，接着化成思想，思想说：我要如何永远维持那种状态。 如果这颗头脑清晰地看，除非这一看是它的尽头，才能看清楚， 那么，这颗头脑能做一种运动，它的第一步就是最后一步。 这里面，不涉及任何过程，也没有与时间相关的因子。 当清楚地看见它，感知到它， 背负它，把它应用于下一个事件的时候，时间就进入了。 普：这种背负，不是看或感知。
K: So, all the traditional approaches which offer a process must have a point, a conclusion, a finality and anything that has a finality, a final point, is not a living thing at all. It is like saying there are many roads to the station. The station is fixed. Is truth a finality that once you have achieved it, everything is over - your anxieties, your fears and so on? Or does it work totally differently? Does it mean that once I am on the train, nothing can happen to me? Does it mean that I expect the train will carry me to my destination? All these are horizontal movements.
克：因此，提供了一个流程的一切传统方法必定有一个点，一个结论、一个结局。 而任何有一个结局、一个终点的事物，根本就不是活的。 就好像在说：到达这个车站有许多不同的路。这个车站是固定的。 真理是一个终局吗，一旦你抵达它，一切就结束了吗 —— 你的各种焦虑、恐惧等等？ 或者，它的运作是完全不同的？ 它是否意味着一旦我上了火车，就没有什么事发生了？ 它是否意味着我期盼着火车把我运送到我的目的地？这一切都是水平上的运动。
So a process implies a fixed point. Systems, methods, practices all offer a fixed point and promise man that when he achieves it, all his troubles are over. Is there something which is really timeless? A fixed point is in time. It is in time because you have postulated it. Because there has been thinking over of the final point, and the thinking of it is time.
因此，一个过程就暗含着一个固定的点。 系统、方法、训练，全都提供了一个固定点， 并向人保证：只要他抵达那一点，他所有的烦恼都解决了。 真地有永恒的东西吗？ 一个固定点处于时间之中。它在时间内，因为它被你设定好了。 对这个终点的仔细思考，对它的思考，就是时间。
Can one come upon this thing which must have no time, no process, no system, no method, no way? Can this mind which is so conditioned horizontally, can this mind, knowing that it lives horizontally, perceive that which is neither horizontal nor vertical? Can it perceive for an instant? Can it perceive that the seeing has cleansed and end it?
一个人能碰到这个必定无关于时间，没有过程，没有系统化的，没有方法和途径的东西吗？ 这颗被局限于水平面上的头脑， 这颗头脑，认识到它活在水平面上，能够感知那个既非水平的也非垂直的东西吗？ 它能够立刻感知吗？ 它能够感知，看清并结束它吗？
In this is the first and the last step because it has seen anew. Your question is, is such a mind ever free of trouble? I think it is a wrong question. You are still thinking in terms of finality, when you put that question. You have already come to a conclusion, and so are back again into the horizontal process.
这里面就是这第一步和这最后一步，因为它在全新地观看。 你的问题是，这样的头脑脱离了烦恼吗？我想这是一个错误的问题。 当你这么问，你还在思考结局的问题。 你已经遇到一个结论，并再次回到了这种水平面上的过程中。
P: The subtlety of it is that the mind has to ask fundamental questions but never the "how". K: Absolutely. I see very clearly; I perceive. Perception is light. I want to carry it over as memory, as thought, and apply it to daily living and therefore I introduce duality, conflict, contradiction. So I say how am I to go beyond it? All systems offer a process, a fixed point and the ending of all trouble.
普：其中的微妙之处在于：这颗头脑必须问基本的问题，而不是去问‘怎么办”。 克：绝对地。我看得非常地清晰；我感知。 感知是光。我想把它变成记忆、思想，带走它，并把它应用到日常的生活中， 因此我引入了二元性、冲突和矛盾。 因此我说，我要怎样才能超越它呢？ 所有体系提供了一个过程、一个固定点和所有烦恼的终点。
Perceiving is light to this mind. It is not concerned with perception any more because if it is concerned, it becomes memory. Can the mind, seeing something very clearly, end that perception? Then, here the very first step is the last step. The mind is fresh to look. To such a mind, is there an end to all troubles? It does not ask such a question. When it happens, it will see. See what takes place.
感知是照亮头脑的光。 它不再关心感知，因为如果它被关心，它就变成了记忆。 这颗头脑能清楚地看见某个东西，并结束那个感知吗？ 那么，这第一步，就是这最后一步。 看，这颗头脑是清新的。对这样的一个头脑，所有烦恼有一个终点吗？ 它不问那种问题。当它发生了，它会看。观看什么在发生。
When I ask the question "Will this end all trouble?" I am already thinking of the future and therefore I am caught in time. But I am not concerned. I perceive. It is over. I see something very clearly - the clarity of perception. Perception is light. It is over. Therefore the mind is never caught in time. Because I have taken the first step, I have also taken the last step each time. So we see that all the processes, all the systems, must be totally denied because they perpetuate time. Through time you hope to arrive at the timeless.
当我问：“这一切的烦恼会结束吗？” 我就已经在思考将来，因此我困于时间之中。 但是我并不关心。我感知。它结束了。我非常清晰地看见某个东西 —— 知觉上的清晰。 感知是光。它结束了。因此这个头脑绝不被时间所缚。 因为我每踏出一步，也进入了这最后一步。 因此我们看到：所有的过程、所有的系统，必须完全地被否定，因为它们使时间永续。 通过时间，你希望抵达这永恒。
P: I see that the instruments used in what you are saying are the fact of seeing and listening. These are sensory movements. It is through sensory movements that conditioning also comes into being. What is it that makes one movement totally dissolve conditioning and another to strengthen it? K: How do I listen to that question? First of all, I do not know. I am going to learn. If I learn in order to acquire knowledge, from which I am going to act, that action becomes mechanical. But when I learn without accumulating - which means perceiving, hearing, without acquiring - the mind is always empty. Then what is the question?
普：我看到，这使用的工具是看和听的这个事实。 这些都是感官运动。通过感官运动，局限还是存在。 是什么运动使一个人完全地消融了局限，而另一个人却强化了它？ 克：我该如何听那个问题？首先，我不知道。我去学习。 如果我为了获得知识去学习，并按照它来行动，那么，那种行动就变成了机械化的。 但是当我学习却不积累 —— 也就是感知，听，不去获取 —— 那么，头脑就总是虚无的。 那么，这个问题是什么？
Can the mind which is empty ever be conditioned and why does it get conditioned? A mind which is really listening, can it ever be conditioned? It is always learning, it is always in movement. It is not a movement from something towards something. A movement cannot have a beginning and an ending. It is something which is alive, never conditioned. A mind that acquires knowledge to function is conditioned by its own knowledge.
这个虚无的头脑会被局限吗？它为什么受局限？ 一颗在真实地听的头脑，它能被限制吗？ 它总在学习，总在运动。它不是一种由此及彼的运动。 而是一种不可能有起点和终点的运动。它是一个活的、从不受限的东西。 一个获取知识以运转的头脑，被它所拥有的知识所局限。
P: Is it the same instrument which is operating in both? K: I do not know. I really do not know. The mind which is crowded with knowledge sees according to that knowledge, according to that conditioning. P: Sir, seeing is like switching on light. It has no conditioning in itself. K: The mind is full of images, words, symbols. Through that, it thinks, it sees.
普：这两种情形中，都是同样的工具吗? 克：我不知道，我真的不知道。 这颗塞满了知识的大脑根据那些知识，根据那些限制来看。 普：先生，‘看’如同开灯。它本身没有任何局限。 克：这颗头脑中充满了图像、文字、符号。通过那些东西，它思考，它看。
P: Does it see? K: No. I have an image of you and I look through that image. That is distortion. The image is my conditioning. It is still the same vessel with all the things in it, and it is the same vessel which has nothing in it. The content of the vessel is the vessel. When there is no content, the vessel has no form. P: So it can receive "what is".
普：它在看吗？ 克：没有。我有一个关于你的印象，我通过那个印象来看你。那是扭曲。这个印象就是我的局限。 无论里面充满了这些东西，还是里面一无所有，它都是同一个容器。 容器的填充物就是这个容器。当没有了填充物，这个容器就没有形状。 普：那样，它能接受‘什么是’。
K: Perception is only possible when there is no image. That is very simple. You see, to go back, perception is only possible when there is no image - no symbol, no idea, word, form, which are all the image. Then perception is light. It is not that I see light. There is light. Perception is light. So perception is action. And a mind which is full of images cannot perceive. It sees through images and so is distorted. What we have said is true. It is logically so. I have listened to this. In the factor of listening there is no "I". In the factor of carrying it over, there is the "I". The "I" is time'
克：感知只有在没有印象的时候才有可能发生。那是很简单的。 你看，走回来，只有当没有印象 —— 没有符号、没有观念、言语和形态，没有所有这些印象的时候，才可能感知。 那么，感知就是光。不是我看见了光，这就是光。感知是光，因此，感知是行动。 一颗被各种印象填塞的头脑无法感知。它通过印象来看，所以被扭曲了。 我们所说的是真实的，在逻辑上是这样的。我听到了这个。 在听的因子中，不存在 ‘我’。 在‘把它带走’的因子中，存在这个‘我’。这个‘我’就是时间。