P: You have said when we were discussing Tantra, that there is a way of awakening energy. The Tantrics concentrate on certain psychic centres, and thereby release the dormant energy in those centres. Would you say there is any validity in this? What is the way of awakening energy? K: What you said just now, concentrating on the various physio-psychical centres, implies, does it not, a process of time? So I would like to ask, can that energy be awakened without a process of time?

普：当我们谈到密教经典时，你提到一种唤醒能量的方法。 密教人专注于心中的某一点，从而释放出里面沉寂的能量。 这样做有价值吗？唤醒能量的方法是什么？ 克：你刚刚提到的专注于身心上的各个点， 它不就隐含着一种时间的过程吗？ 那么我想问：能不能不通过时间而唤醒能量？

P: In this whole process, the traditional way demands correct posture and an equilibrium of breath. If the body does not know how to sit erect, and how to breathe rightly, there can be no ending of thought. To bring body and breath to an equilibrium, a process of time becomes inevitable. K: There may be a totally different approach to this problem. Tradition starts from the psychosomatic, the posture, the breath control and gradually through various forms of concentration to the full awakening of energy. That is the accepted way. Is there not an awakening of this energy without going through all these practices?

普：这个过程里，传统的方法要求正确的姿势和呼吸的均匀。 如果身体不知道如何坐直，如何正确地呼吸，那么思想就不会停下。 要使身体和呼吸达到平衡，时间的过程是不可避免的。 克：关于这个问题，也许有一种完全不同的处理方式。 传统通过对控制身体和心灵上的姿势和呼吸， 以不同形式的专注而逐渐达到完全唤醒能量的结果。 那是公认的方法。 然而，不经历所有那些训练，就不唤醒能量吗？

P: It is like the Zen-Masters who say the real master is one who puts aside effort, and yet in Zen to master archery a tremendous mastery over technique is necessary. It is only when there is total mastery that effort drops away. K: You are beginning at this end rather than at the other - this end being time, control, energy, perfection, perfect balance. All this seems to me like dealing with a very small part of a very vast field. Tradition gives great importance to the past, to breathing, to the right posture. All these are limited to a corner of the field and through that corner you hope to have enlightenment. The corner then becomes a trick. Through some kind of psychosomatic acrobatics, it is hoped that you will capture the light, the whole universe. I do not think enlightenment is there - not through one corner. It is like seeing the sky through a small window and never going outside to look at the sky. I feel that way is an absurd way of approaching something totally vast, timeless. P: Even you would admit that correct posture and right breathing strengthen the structure of the mind.

普：这就好像禅宗的大师们说的，真正的大师是放下努力的人， 而在禅家，要掌握箭术，大量技术上的技巧是必需的。 只有当一个人完全掌握时，才可以放弃努力。 克：你宁愿从这里开始而不是那里 —— 这里即是时间，控制，能量，完善，完美的平衡。 这一切在我看来，就好像在打理广袤田野上的一小块田地。 在传统文化上，极其地重视过去的经验：怎样呼吸，什么是正确的姿势，等等。 这一切都被限定于整个领域的一个角落里。通过那个角落，你希望觉悟。 那个角落就变成了一个阴谋。 通过一些身心上的技巧，希望自己能抓住光明，把握这个宇宙。 我不认为那是觉悟 —— 不是通过一个角落。 这就好像通过一扇小窗户去观天，却从不走出窗外。 我认为以那种方式去接近某种完全广大的、非时间的东西，是荒谬的。 普：即使是你自己也会承认：正确的姿势和呼吸可以强化这颗头脑的结构。

K: I want to approach all this quite differently. In approaching it entirely differently, it is necessary to throw out all that has been said. I see the corner is like a candle in sunshine. The candle is being lit very carefully in brilliant sunshine. You are not concerned with sunshine, but work away at lighting the candle. There are other things involved; there is the awakening of energy which has been dissipated so far. To centralize energy, to gather the whole of it, attention is involved, and the elimination of time altogether. I think there are these major factors - time, attention which is not forced, which is not concentration, which is not centred round a part, and the gathering of energy. I think these are the fundamental things one has to understand because enlightenment must be and is the comprehension and understanding of this vast life - life being living, dying, loving; the whole travail and going beyond it. The traditional Masters would also agree that you have to have attention to go beyond time. But they are the worshippers of the corner. They use time to go beyond time.

克：我想以完全不同的方式来处理这一切。 既然要用全新的方式，就必须抛弃以前的一切说法。 我看到，这个角落就像阳光下的一支蜡烛。 在明亮的阳光下，这根蜡烛被小心地点燃。 你丝毫不关心阳光，而是孜孜不倦地去点燃这根蜡烛。 这里还涉及到别的事物；至今已经浪费的能量正在苏醒。 要集中能量，汇集全部的能量，涉及到关注，以及时间的湮灭。 我想这些主要的因素 —— 时间和关注 —— 关注不是被强迫的，不是专注，不是以某个局部为中心而聚焦能量。 我想这些是基础，一个人必需理解， 因为觉悟必定是，领会和理解这广袤的生命 —— 正在生长、正在消逝、处于爱的行动之中的生命；这完整的细节，并越过它。 传统的大师们也赞成：你必须注意，以越过时间。 但是他们崇尚这个角落。他们用时间来超越时间。

P: How Sir? I take a posture and direct my attention. What is the time involved in this? K: Is attention the result of time? P: No. You ask a question and there is immediate attention. Is this attention the product of time? K: No, certainly not.

普：怎么做，先生？我摆一个姿势，引导我的注意力，这其中涉及到时间吗？ 克：注意力是时间的结果吗？ 普：不是。你问一个问题，就立刻出现了关注。这个注意力是时间的产物吗？ 克：不，当然不是。

P: Your question and my attention being there, is there time involved? If you would regard this as so, the self-knowing process which is going on all the time also involves time. My mind twenty years ago would not have known the present quality. This state had no existence then. K: Let us go slowly. We are trying to understand something which is out of time. P: The tradition says prepare the body and mind. K: Through time you prepare the body and mind to receive, to comprehend, to be free of time. Through time can you do this?

普：你的问题和我的注意力就在那儿，时间插足了吗？ 如果你认为有，那么在一直进行的自我认识过程中，也涉及到时间。 在二十年前，我的头脑并不知道它现在的品质。当时，这种状态并不存在。 克：让我们走得慢一点。我们尝试理解某种时间之外的东西。 普：传统说，准备好身体和心灵。 克：通过时间，你准备好身体和心灵，以便于接受，领悟，挣脱时间。 你能通过时间做到这些吗？

P: The tradition also posits that through time you cannot go beyond time. K: I am asking, when you say through time you perfect the instrument, is it so? I question that. Through time can you perfect the instrument? Now first of all who is it that is perfecting the instrument? Is it thought? P: It would be invalid to say only thought. There are many other factors involved.

普：传统同样认为，你无法通过时间去超越时间。 克：我问你，你说通过时间以完善这躯体，不是吗？我质疑那一点。 通过时间，你可以完善这躯体吗？ 那么，首先，是谁在完善这躯体？是思想吗？ 普：仅仅说它是思想，是不对的，里面涉及到很多其它的因素。

K: Thought, the knowing of thought, intelligence, are all maintained by thought. To say thought must end and intelligence must come into being is again an action of thought. The statement, thinker and thought are one, is again an action of thought. You are saying perfect the instrument through thought. To me the traditional approach to perfect the instrument through thought and so to go beyond, and the act of cultivating intelligence and the going beyond time - all these are still in the area of thought. That is so. Therefore in that very thought there is the thinker. That thinker says this must happen, this must not happen. That thinker has become the will of achievement. The will to perfect the instrument is part of thought.

克：思想，对思想的了解，智慧，都靠思想维护。 声称：‘思想必须终止，智慧必须产生’。这也是一种思想行为。 这就好像是在说‘思想者和思想是一’。 你说：通过思想来改善躯体。 我说，通过思想使躯体完善，以超越思想的传统方式， 培育智慧并超越时间的这种行为 —— 这一切依然在思想的领域。就是那样。 因此，在那种想法中，存在着思想者。思想者说这必定发生，这必须避免。 那个思想者变成了取得成就的意志。 完善这具躯体的意志，就是思想的一部分。

P: In this circle which you are talking; about, in that which you are describing just now, is also implied the questioning of the very instrument which is thought. K: But the questioner is part of thought; the whole structure is part of thought. You can divide, subdivide, change, but it is all within the field of thought, and that is time. Thought is memory, thought is material; the material is memory. We are still functioning within the area of the known and the man who is cultivating thought says he will go to the unknown through the known, perfect the known and get enlightenment. Again all this is thought.

普：在你刚才说的这个循环中，你现在描述的情形里， 也同样暗示着对这个工具，也就是对思想的质疑。 克：但是质疑者也是思想的一部分；整个结构也是思想的一部分。 你可以划分，细分，改变，然而这一切都在思想的领域，那也就是时间。 思想是记忆，思想是物质，这种材质就是记忆。 我们还是在已知的领域内打转， 而那个培育思想的人说， 他要走出已知，并抵达未知，完善已知获得觉悟。 同样，这一切还是思想。

P: If everything is thought, it must then be necessary to give birth to a new instrument. K: When thought says it must become silent and becomes silent it is still thought. What the traditionalists do is to work within the field of thought which is the corner of the field. But it is still the result of thought. Atman is the result of thought. The brahman to which man looks up, is the result of thought. The man who experienced it had nothing to do with thought. It just happened, whereas his disciples came along and said do this, do that. It is all within the field of thought.

普：如果一切都是思想，那么就有必要诞生一种新的工具。 克：当思想说它自己必须安静，于是变得安静下来时，它依旧是思想。 传统主义者所做的事情都在思想的范畴内，即整个领域的角落里。 它依然是思想的结果。 宇宙灵魂是思想的结果。人们仰望的梵，是思想的结果。 经历过它的人与思想毫无干系。 它只不过发生了，然而他的弟子们却走过来说，‘这样做，那样做。’ 这一切说法，都在思想的这个领域内。

P: Then there is no proceeding. K: See how thought plays tricks upon itself - I must have balance, I must have the right posture in order that the life energy flows through. Right? I say thought is of the past. Thought can create the most marvellous instrument - it can go to the moon, to Venus; but thought can never possibly touch "the other" because thought is never free, thought is old, thought is conditioned. Thought is the whole structure of the known.

普：那么，就不存在过程。 克：看看思想是如何欺骗它自己的吧 —— 我必须保持平和，我必须姿势正确，这样一来，生命的能量才能畅通。 对吗？我说，思想就是过去。思想可以制造最奇妙的工具 —— 它能够去月球，去金星；但是思想永远不可能触及‘另一个’， 因为思想永远不自由。思想是陈旧的，是受限的。 思想就是整个已知的框架。

P: But you had training. You were put through a vigorous training of the body. K: So they tell us. Because the body was neglected. And so they said if he was not looked after he would fall ill. P: But Sir, apart from physical discipline, there were instructions as to how to bring up that boy. K: It was like combing the hair, doing asanas, pranayama; it was all at that level. B: It is very subtle. I am not saying that what happened had any relationship to the illumination, but it is necessary to look after the body. K: Yes, it is necessary to keep the body healthy.

普：但是你受过训练。你通过了一套对身体的有力的训练。 克：他们告诉我的。因为这个躯体受到了忽视。 他们说，如果他不被照顾，他会生病。 普：但是先生，除了身体训练之外，还存在对那个小男孩的指导。 克：做瑜伽体式和调理气息，就如同梳理头发一样；它们处于同一个级别。 普：它很微妙。 我并不是说所发生的事情和觉悟有任何关系，但是照顾好身体的确很有必要。 克：是的，要保持这具躯体的健康。

P: Sir, if I may say so, you have the way of the yogi, you look like a yogi, your body takes the pose of a yogi. You have been doing asanas, pranayama, every day for so many years. Why? K: That is not important. It is like keeping my nails clean. I am saying the other is so childish; spending years in perfecting the instrument. All that you have to do is "to look".

普：先生，我可否这样说，你有瑜伽师的风范，你看起来像一名瑜伽师，你的身体有着瑜伽师的姿态。 你一直在做瑜伽动作，调理气息，日复一日，年复一年。为什么？ 克：那并不重要。它就如同清洁我的指甲一样。 我在说，花费许多年去完善这具躯体是很幼稚的。 你需要做的那一切，就是‘去看’。

P: But if one is born blind, only when a person like you comes and says, look, something happens. Most people would not understand what you are talking about. K: Most people would not listen to all this. They would brush it aside. B: The other is easier. It gives something whereas this gives nothing. K: This gives everything if you touch it. B: But the other is easier.

K: You see I am terribly interested in this. How has the mind of Krishnamurti maintained this state of innocence? P: What you are saying is not relevant. You may be an exception. How did the boy Krishnamurti come to it? He had money, organization, everything and yet he left everything. If I were to take my grand-daughter and leave her with you and she had no other companion but you, even then she would not have it. K: No, she would not have it. (pause) Wipe out all this. P: When you say that, it is like the Zen koan; the goose being out of the bottle. Did you have a centre to wipe away? K: No. P: So you had no centre to wipe away? You are unique and therefore you are a phenomenon, and so you cannot tell us you did this and so it happened. You can only tell us "This is not it" and whether we drown or not, no one else can tell us. We see this. We may not be enlightened, but we are not unenlightened. K: I think it is tremendously interesting - to see that anything that thought touches is not the real. Thought is time. Thought is memory. Thought cannot touch the real.

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