P: One of the most vital problems that has concerned man is the necessity of containing evil. It appears as if at certain times in history, because of various circumstances, evil has had a wider field within which to operate. The manifestations of evil are so wide, the problems of evil so complex that the individual does not know how to deal with them. What would you say is the way of dealing with evil? Is there such a thing as evil independent of good?
普：人所关心的一个很重要的问题是：对邪恶的控制。 它看起来，在历史的某一时间轴上， 由于多变的环境，使得邪恶有广袤的运作空间。 邪恶的展现如此宽广，邪恶的问题如此繁杂， 以至于人不知道如何处理它们。 对于邪恶的处理，你怎么看？是否存在着邪恶，这种独立于善良之外的东西？
K: I wonder what you mean. The bush with so many thorns - do you call that evil? Do you call a serpent with poison, evil? No savage animal is evil - neither the shark nor the tiger. So what do you mean by the word evil? Something harmful? Something that can bring tremendous grief, something that can bring great pain, something that can destroy or prevent the light of understanding? Would you call war evil? Would you call the generals, the rulers, the admirals evil because they help to bring about war, destruction? P: That which thwarts the nature of things can be called evil.
克：我想知道你是什么意思。灌木丛中有很多刺，你把那称之为邪恶吗？ 你把毒蛇称之为邪恶吗？没有一种野兽是邪恶的 —— 鲨鱼或老虎都不是。 因此，你所说的‘邪恶’是什么意思？是指有害的东西吗？ 某种带来巨大的忧虑，巨大的痛苦的东西？ 某种能摧毁或阻碍理解之明的东西？ 你会把战争称之为邪恶吗？ 你会把将军、统治者、司令称之为邪恶吗，因为他们为战争和毁灭推波助澜？ 普：那阻碍事物本性的，都可以称之为邪恶。
K: Man is brutal, is he evil? P: If he is thwarting, if he through malignant intention makes certain things deviate.... K: I was just wondering what that word evil means. What does evil mean to an intelligent mind; a mind that is aware of all the horrors in the world? P: Evil is that which diminishes consciousness, that which brings darkness.
克：男人很粗蛮，他邪恶吗？ 普：如果他在阻碍，如果他通过某种不好的意图，做了某些不对的事情…… 克：我只是想知道 "邪恶" 这个词是什么意思。 对一个智慧的头脑，一个意识到世界上所有的恐怖的头脑，邪恶意味着什么？ 普：邪恶禁锢着意识，从而带来了黑暗。
K: Fear, sorrow, pain do that. Would you say that evil is the encouragement of fear? Is evil a means to further sorrow? Is evil social or environmental conditioning which perpetuates war? All these limit consciousness and create darkness and sorrow. Evil, according to the Christian idea, is the devil. Does the Hindu have any idea of evil? If he has an idea of evil, what would it be? Personally I never think of evil. Would you say that in the flowering of goodness, there is no evil at all? That this state does not know evil? Or is evil an invention of the mind which breeds fear and creates the good?
克：那是恐惧、悲伤和痛苦所引起的。你是说邪恶助长了恐惧？ 邪恶是加深悲伤的一种方式吗？ 邪恶是使战争持续存活的社会或环境限制吗？ 这一切都使意识受到局限并制造出黑暗和悲伤。 在基督教的观念中，邪恶就是魔鬼。 印度教有邪恶的观念吗？如果他有邪恶的观念，那是指什么？就我个人而言，我从来没有想过邪恶。 你是不是说：在善良的绽放中，完全没有邪恶？也就是这种状态对邪恶一无所知？ 或者邪恶是头脑的一种发明，是它滋生出恐惧并创造出善良？
P: May I say something? If you go deep down into the recesses of the human mind, into the history of mankind, there has always been the sorcerer, the witch who subverts the laws of nature, who brings fear and darkness. It is one of the strangest elements in the human mind. It is because of this terrible fear of the unknown, that darkness without limit, without end, that prevails through the history of man, that the human being has cried out for protection; a cry that echoes through human consciousness. It is this which is the unknown, un-named matrix of fear. It is not enough to suggest that it is fear. It is all that and more.
普：我可以说几句吗? 如果潜入人类的头脑深处，潜入人类的历史， 总会发现一些颠覆自然法则，带来黑暗与恐惧的巫师和女巫。 它是人类头脑中最陌生的因素之一。 出于对未知的恐惧，那无边际、没有尽头的黑暗的恐惧， 遍布于人类历史之中，人尖叫地呼求着保护； 这种叫声在人类的意识里回荡。 它就是未知，莫名恐惧的发源地。 把它当成恐惧是不够的，它是那一切，以及更多。
K: Are you saying that deep in man, in the inner recesses of the mind, there is the fear of the unknown, of something that man cannot touch or imagine? Being afraid so deeply, he demands protection of the gods and anything that brings an awakening of that danger, any intimation of that hidden thing, he calls evil? P:This darkness exists deep in human consciousness all the time. K: Is evil the opposite of the good, or is it totally dependent of the good? P: It is independent of the good.
克：你是说在人类的头脑深处， 存在对未知的恐惧，某种无法触及和想象的东西？ 出于这种深度的恐惧，他要求得到保护 —— 从神灵或任何能提醒他那种危险、那隐含着的，被称之为‘邪恶’的东西？ 普：这种黑暗总是存在于人类的意识深处。 克：邪恶与善良相反吗？或者，它完全独立于善良而存在? 普：邪恶是独立于善良存在的。
K:You are saying it is independent. So, is evil something that is in itself unrelated to the beautiful, to love? Against evil, man has always sought protection, as he would against an animal. There is this hidden dark danger. Man is aware of it, he is frightened and seeks through incantations, rituals, prayers and so on to put it away and be guarded. The bush that is so full of thorns protects itself against the animal and the animal would call that evil as it cannot get at the leaves. Is there such a force, such an embodiment of evil which is totally apart from the good, the beautiful? There is this whole idea that evil is fighting good. This evil is seen as embodied in people and evil is always fighting the good and the gentle. I am asking, is evil totally independent of the good? You must be very careful not to become superstitious.
克：你说它是独立的。因此，在邪恶之中，没有与美和爱相关的东西吗？ 为了抵抗邪恶，就像对抗野兽一样，人类总是寻求保护。 存在着隐藏于黑暗中的危险。 人知道这点，感到恐怖，并试图通过咒语、仪式、祈祷等等，以驱散邪恶，受到庇佑。 遍布荆棘的灌木丛用刺保护自己，阻隔动物，动物因为无法吃到它的叶子而称它为邪恶。 是否存在这样一种力量或邪恶的化身，完全无关于善和美？ 世界上存在着邪恶在对抗善良的这整套观念。 这种邪恶化身成人，邪恶总是在对抗着善良和温柔。 我在问：邪恶是否完全独立于善良而存在？你必须非常小心地回答，不要变得迷信。
P: "Fear" of something is opposed to goodness. But the darkest fears are not "of anything". S: It is not only protection and fear and the fear involved in evil, but protection in order to move forward. P: The demand for protection, the mantras as spells, the mandalas as magical diagrams and the mudras as magical gestures were intended to provide protection against evil.
普：对某个东西的恐惧，是与善良相反的。但是最幽暗的恐惧不属于任何东西。 苏：这种保护，不只是为了(抵抗)恐惧，那被包藏在邪恶中恐惧，还包含着向前移动的护甲。 普：对保护的需求，作为符咒的经文，作为魔法图的曼陀罗 以及作为魔法手势的舞姿，都是为了提供庇佑，对抗邪恶。
K: You see when you go deeply into consciousness, you reach a point where the unknown appears as the dark, and there you stop, because you get frightened. The mind penetrates deeply up to a point, and below that point there is this feeling of dark emptiness. Because of the darkness, you have prayers, incantations, and because of the fear of the dark, you ask for protection. Can the mind go through the darkness, which means can the mind not be afraid? Can it operate so that the darkness becomes light? Can you penetrate the darkness of which you are afraid, which you have named "evil"? Can you penetrate that so completely that darkness does not exist? Then, what is evil?
克：你看，当你潜入到意识的深层，到达如同幽深的未知处， 你停下在这里，因为你受到了惊恐。 这颗头脑刺入并触碰到这一点，再往下就是幽暗的虚无感。 因为这幽暗，你祷告、符咒； 因为对幽暗的恐惧，你寻求庇佑。 这颗头脑能够穿越这幽深吗？也就是说头脑能够不害怕吗？ 它能够运转，以使幽暗变成光明吗？ 你能够刺透你所恐惧的这种幽暗，也就是你称之为‘邪恶’的那个东西吗？ 你能够彻底穿透，以使那黑暗不存在吗？ 那么，什么是邪恶？
P: When the ritual mandala is drawn, the entry into the mandala is through spell and mudra. In this entry into the darkness, what is the spell which will open the gates? K: Consciousness as thought, investigates itself - its depth. As it enters it comes upon this darkness. This investigation is not a process of time. And you are asking what is the spell or energy that will penetrate to the very bottom of the darkness, what is that energy and how is it to come into being? The very energy which started investigating is still there, more heavy, vital as it enters, penetrates. Why do you ask whether there is need of greater energy? P: Because energy dries up. We penetrate up to a point and do not go further.
普：当仪式中的魔法图被绘制出来，进入阵图要通过咒语和手势。 在进入黑暗的过程中，是什么咒语开启了黑暗之门？ 克：意识如同思想，调查它本身 —— 它的深度。 随着它的深入，它遭遇这种黑暗。这种调查与时间无关。 而你问: 是什么咒语或能量会穿透到黑暗的最底层？ 那种能量是什么，它是如何产生的？ 那种能量，在开始调查的时候，就已经存在，随着调查的深入和刺透，它变得更厚重和活泼。 为什么你问：是否需要更大的能量？ 普：因为能量的枯竭，我们穿透到了某一点就无法再深入。
K: Because of fear, because of apprehension of something we do not know, we dissipate energy instead of bringing it into focus. I want to penetrate into myself. I see entering into myself is the same movement as the outer. It is entering into space. In entering into space, there is a certain demand, a certain energy. That energy must be without any effort, without any distortion. As it enters, it gathers momentum. If it has no passage through which it can escape, it is not distorted. It becomes deeper, wider, stronger. Then you reach a point where there is darkness. And how does one enter that darkness with this tremendous energy? (pause)
克：因为恐惧，因为对未知的焦虑，我们浪费了能量而没有使它聚焦。 我想要穿透我自身。我看到进入自身的内在和进入外在的运动是同样的运动。都是进入空无。 进入空无之中，存在某种需求，一种能量。 那种能量必须没有任何的努力，没有任何的扭曲。 随着它的进入，它积聚着动力。 如果没有逃窜的通道，它就不会受到扰乱。它变得更深，更广，更强大。 那么，你到达一点，那就是黑暗。 一个人如何利用这巨大的能量进入这种黑暗？(停顿)
P: The first question with which we started was how is evil to be contained. You have said as one penetrates the sea of darkness, darkness is not; light is. But when there is evil in human beings, in certain situations, in certain happenings, is there any action which can contain this evil?
普：我们刚开始时探讨的第一个问题是: 如何抑制邪恶？ 你说：只要一个人穿透黑暗之海，黑暗就不存在，而光明存在。 但是当人类本身存在邪恶，在某种情况下，在某种遭遇中，有可以抑制这种邪恶的行为吗？
K: I would not put it that way. Resistance to evil strengthens evil. So, if the mind is living in goodness, then there is no resistance and evil cannot touch it. Therefore there is no containing of evil.
克：我不会那么表述。 抵抗会使邪恶更加强大。 所以，如果这颗头脑活在善良中，那么就没有抵抗，而邪恶不能污染它。 因此就不存在对邪恶的抑制。
P: Is there only goodness then? K: We have to go back to something else - the mind has gone into darkness and it is finished with darkness. But is there evil which is independent of all that? Or is evil part of goodness? You see in nature there is the big living on the little, the bigger on the big. I would not call that evil. The deliberate desire to hurt another; is that part of evil? I want to hurt another; is that part of evil? I want to hurt you because you have done something to me; is that evil?
普：那就只存在善良了？ 克：我们要回到另外的一件事情上 —— 这颗头脑穿透黑暗，结束黑暗。 但是否存在独立于那一切以外的邪恶？或者，邪恶是善良的一部分？ 你看，在自然界中，大生物以小生物为食，而其本身又是更大型生物的美餐。我不会称那为邪恶。 蓄意伤人的意图，那是邪恶的一部分吗？ 我想害别人；那是邪恶的一部分吗？ 我想伤害你，因为你对我做了某些事情，那是邪恶吗？
P: That is part of evil. K: Then that implies will. You hurt me, and, because I am proud, I want to retaliate. Wanting to retaliate is an action of will. Whether it is the will to react or to do good, both are evil. P: Again coming back to the mandala; evil can enter when the gateways are not protected. Here, your eyes and ears are the gateways.
普：那是一种邪恶。 克：那么，那就意味着意志。你伤害我，但因为我的骄傲，我想报复。 想要报复就是一种意志的行为。 想要报复的意向，或者想要做好事的意向，都是邪恶。 普：让我们再次回到魔法图上； 邪恶能够在大门没有防护的时候乘虚而入。在这儿，你的眼睛和耳朵就是大门。
K: So you are saying when the eyes see clearly, ears hear clearly, then evil cannot enter. To go back, the deliberate intention, the collection of intentions, the thinking it over, which is all the deep intention to hurt, is part of will. I think that is where evil is - the deliberate act to hurt. You hurt me, I hurt you; I apologize and it is finished. But if I hold, retain, strengthen deliberately, follow a policy to hurt you, which is part of the will in man to do harm or good, then there is evil.
克：所以你是说：当眼睛看得清楚，耳朵听得清楚的时候，邪恶就不能进入。 回过头来看， 这种蓄意的谋划、一套算计， 这种深思熟虑，也就是蓄意伤害的深层意图，就是意志的一部分。 我认为那就是邪恶的藏身之处 —— 蓄意伤害的行为。 你伤害我，我伤害你；我道歉，然后结束。 但是， 如果我握住，保留，蓄意地强化，遵循一种策略去伤害你 —— 也就是人的意志 —— 想伤害，或想做好事的意志 那么，就出现了邪恶。
So is there a way of living without will? The moment I resist, evil must be on one side, and the good on the other and there is relationship between the two. When there is no resistance, there is no relationship between the two. And love then is an open space, without any words, without any resistance. Love is action out of emptiness. As we had been discussing yesterday, when the male elements deliberately become assertive, demanding, possessive, dominating, man invites evil. And the female, yielding, yielding, yielding and deliberately yielding in order to dominate, also invites evil. So, where there is the cunning pursuit of domination, which is the operation of will, there is the beginning of evil.
因此，有没有一种毫无意志的生活方式？ 在我抵抗的瞬间，邪恶必定在某一边，而善良在另一边，这两者之间就产生了联系。 当没有了抵抗，这两者就没有关系。 而爱是一处开放的空间，没有任何言语，没有任何的抵抗。爱属于虚无中的行动。 正如我们昨天所讨论的， 当男性因子刻意变得自负、苛求、占有、控制，人就在邀请邪恶。 而女性因子的服从，服从，再服从，为了支配而故意去服从，同样在邀请邪恶。 因此，哪里存在对支配权的狡猾的追求，哪里就有意志的运作，就有邪恶的萌生。
You see against that evil we try to protect ourselves. We are ourselves creating evil and yet we draw a circle a diagram round the doorstep of the house to seek protection from evil, and inwardly the serpent of evil is operating. Keep your house clean. Forget all the mantras; nothing can touch you. We ask protection of the gods whom we have created. It is really quite fantastic.
你看，为了对抗邪恶，我们尝试保护我们自己。 我们自己创造出邪恶， 却又在屋子的门阶处勾画护身符，以寻求抵抗邪恶的庇佑， 殊不知邪恶的毒蛇正在屋内爬行。 把你的屋子打扫干净。忘掉所有的咒符，没有什么能碰到你。 我们要求自己创造的神来保护我们，真是相当的奇葩。
All these wars, all the racial hatreds, all the accumulated hatreds which man has been storing up, that must have a collected hatred, a gathered evil. The Hitlers, the Mussolinis, the Stalins, the concentration camps, the Atillas; all that must be stored, must have a body somewhere.
所有的战争，所有的种族仇恨，所有的人类从古到今所积攒的一切怨恨， 必然产生仇恨的聚集，一种复合的邪恶。 那些希特勒们、墨索里尼们、斯大林们、集中营们、阿提拉们； 那一切必然被储蓄，必然在某处存在着一个团体。
So also, the feeling of "do not kill, be kind, be gentle, be compassionate" - that also must be stored somewhere. When people try to protect themselves against the one, the evil, they are protecting themselves against the good too, because man has created these two. So, can the mind enter into darkness and the very entrance into it, is the dispelling of darkness?
同样，这种‘不要杀戮、要与人为善、温和、心怀同情’的感情 —— 那也必然在某处被积蓄。 当人们尝试保护他们自己，以反对那一个、那个邪恶的时候， 他们也在保护他们自己，以对抗善良， 因为是人创造了这两者。 因此，这颗头脑能进入黑暗中吗？在进入的那一瞬，就是黑暗的消散。