P: I was considering whether it would be worthwhile to discuss the ancient Indian attitude to alchemy and mutation and to see whether the findings of alchemy have any relevance to what you are saying. It is significant that Nagarjuna, one of the great propounders of Buddhist thought, was himself an alchemist Master. The search of the alchemist in India was not directed so much to turning base metal into gold, as to an investigation into certain psychophysical and chemical processes in which, through mutation the body and mind could be made free of the ravages of time and the processes of decay. The field of investigation included mastery of breath, the partaking of an elixir brewed in the laboratory, a substance wherein mercury played a vital part, and a triggering of an explosion in consciousness. The action of the three leads to a mutation of body and mind. The symbolism used by the alchemist was sexual; mercury was the male seed of Shiva, mica the seed of the goddess; the union of the two, not only physically and in the crucibles of the laboratory but in consciousness itself, brought into being a mutation; a state that was free of time and the processes of ageing, a state that was unrelated to the two constituents that in total union had triggered the mutation. Has this any relevance to what you are saying? K: You are asking about the state of consciousness which is out of time.
普：我在考虑是否值得 讨论古印度人对炼金术和突变的态度，看看炼金术的发现是否与你所说的有任何关系。 值得注意的是，龙树菩萨是佛教思想的伟大倡导者之一，他本人就是一位炼金术士大师。 印度炼金术士的探索，与其说是将贱金属变成黄金， 至于对某些精神理物学和化学过程的调查，其中， 通过突变，身体和心灵可以摆脱时间的蹂躏和腐化过程。 调查的领域包括掌握呼吸，参与实验室酿造的长生不老药， 汞是在其中发挥了重要作用的一种物质，并触发意识的爆炸。 三者的作用导致了身心的突变。 炼金术士使用的符号是性象征的； 水星是湿婆的雄性种子，云母是女神的种子； 两者的结合， 不仅是在物理上，在实验室的坩埚中，也在意识的自身内， 带来了突变； 一种没有时间和衰老过程的状态， 一种与完全联合触发突变的两个成分无关的状态。 这与你所说的有什么关系吗？ 克：你问的是超越时间的意识状态。
P: In every individual one can see the male and female element in operation. The alchemist saw the need of union, of balance. Is there any validity in this? K: I think one can observe this in oneself. I have often observed that in each one of us there are the male and female elements. Either they are in perfect balance or in a state of imbalance. When there is this complete balance between the male and the female, then the physical organism never really falls ill; there may be superficial illness but deep within there is no disease which destroys the organism. This is probably what the ancients must have sought - identifying it with mercury and mica, the male and the female and through meditation, study, and perhaps through some form of medicine tried to bring about this perfect harmony. One can see very clearly in oneself the operation of the male and female going on. When one or the other gets exaggerated, the imbalance creates disease; not superficial ailments but disease at the depths. I have noticed personally within myself under different situations and climates, with different people who are aggressive, violent, the female takes over and becomes more prominent. This prominence, the other uses to assert himself. But when there is too much femininity around one, the male does not become aggressive but withdraws without any resistance.
普：在每个人的身上，一个人都能看到有男性因子和女性因子在运转。 炼金术士看到了结合和平衡的必要性。这其中有价值吗？ 克：我想一个人能从自己的身上看到这一点。 我经常看到：我们每个人身上都存在着男性因子和女性因子。 它们要么处于完美的平衡状态，要么处于失衡的状态。 当男性因子与女性因子之间有完整的平衡时， 那么这个生命有机体就绝不会真正地生病； 也许存在表面的些微不适，但是体内没有破坏有机体的疾病。 也许，这必定就是古人所寻求的东西 —— 通过水银和云母来代表它， 男性和女性，通过冥想，研究， 也许通过某些药物的形式，试图达到这种完美的平衡。 一个人可以清晰地看到自己体内男性因子和女性因子的运作。 如果其中一个或另一个因子被放大，这种失衡导致生病； 不是表面上的不适，而是深层的疾病。 我注意到，当我处于不同的情形和环境， 与另一群攻击性强烈而暴力的人们在一起的时候，我内心的女性因子就起着主导作用，显得更加突出。 这种突出性，另一个人用来维护他自己。 但是当一个人周围的女性因子很多的时候， 男性就变得不具有攻击性，而是没有抵抗地回退。
S: What are the male and female elements? K: The male is generally aggressive, violent, dominating and the female is the quiet, which is taken for submissiveness and then exploited by man. But submissiveness which is taken to be the quality of the female, is really gentleness which gradually conquers the other. When the female and the male are in complete harmony, the quality of both changes. It is no longer male or female. It is something totally different, in relation to what is considered as male and female. The male and the female as the positive and negative because of their very nature are dualistic, whereas the complete balance, a harmony of the two has a different quality. May I say something?
苏: 什么是男性因子和女性因子？ 克：一般来说，男性是进攻性的、暴力的、专横的； 而女性则是安静的，这点被认为是顺从，并被男人所利用。 但这种被认为是女性特质的顺从，实际上是温柔，它逐渐地征服了男性。 当男性和女性完全和谐之时，两者的特质就变异了，就不再是男性和女性。 它是某种完全不同的东西，与我们所知的男性和女性无关。 男性和女性被当作阴阳两极，是因为它们的性质是相对的； 然而这种完全的平衡，两者的和谐，具有一种不同的品质。 我可以说下去吗？
It is like the quality of the earth in which everything lives but is not of it. I have noticed this operating very often. When the whole mind withdraws from the physical and the environment, it is as though it is very far away; far away not in space and time, but a state which nothing can touch. This state is not an abstraction nor a withdrawal but an inward, absolute, non-being. When this perfect harmony takes place, because there is no conflict, it has its own vitality. It does not destroy the other. So conflict is not only in the outer but also in the inner and when this conflict completely comes to an end, there is a mutation which is not touched by time.
如同大地的这种品质，万物生长于其上，却又不属于它。 我经常注意到这种运作。 当这颗头脑完全地从这个身体和环境中回撤的时候，仿佛是非常的遥远， 不是指空间和时间上的遥远，而是一种无法触及的状态。 这种状态既非抽象，也不是撤退，而是一种内在，绝对，虚无。 当这种完美的和谐发生时，因为没有冲突，它有它自己的活力。 它没有摧毁另一个。 由于冲突不仅存在于外部，也存在于内部。 当冲突完全结束的时候，就有一种与时间无关的突变。
P: The alchemist called this the birth of Kumara, of the magical child - he who never grows old, he who is completely innocent. K: It is very interesting - but alchemy has become synonymous with so much phony magic. P: But the alchemists, the Masters who were known as rasa siddhas - the holders of the essence - maintained that what they described they had seen with their own eyes, that what they recorded was not from hearsay nor from the dictation of a teacher. There is another factor of interest. A great deal of attention was paid in alchemy to the instrument, the vessel. The science of metallurgy developed out of this - one of the vessels or yantras was known as the garbha yantra, the womb vessel. It is a key word in alchemy.
普：炼金术士把这个过程称为圣童的诞生，魔力孩童 —— 他永不变老，完全的天真。 克：这非常有趣 —— 但是炼金术已经与很多骗人的戏法成了同义词。 普：但是炼金术士们，被称为掌握精华的大师们， —— 坚持认为他们所描述的事物是他们亲眼所见， 他们所记录的事情并不是道听途说的，也不是来自师傅的描述。 还有另一个有趣的因子。 在炼金术中，有大量的注意力花费在那个被称之为‘容器’的器物上。 冶金学就是从这里发源的 —— 其中一个容器或者器具被看作是子宫容器。 它是炼金术的一个关键词。
K: Is there such a thing as preparing the womb of the mind? in which time is involved. P: The alchemists were also conscious that at the point of mutation, of the fixation of mercury, of the birth of the timeless, time was not involved. K: Do not use the word preparation. Let us put it this way. Is there a necessary state, a necessary background, a necessary vessel which can contain this? I should say no, because when they found the boy Krishnamurti, the people who were supposedly clairvoyant for the time being, saw that he had no quality of selfishness and therefore he was worthy of being the vessel and I think that has remained right through.
克：有那种为了孕育头脑而提前准备好的子宫吗？这其中可涉及到时间。 普：炼金术士也同样意识到： 在那突变的一刻，在水银的凝固点，在永恒诞生的瞬间，与时间无关。 克：别用‘准备’这个词。让我们这样表述它： 是否存在一种必要的状态，一种必备的背景，一种必要的容器来容纳？ 我会说不存在， 因为，当那些据称有眼通能力的人们，当他们发现那个叫做‘克里希那穆提’的孩子时， 看见他没有自私的品质，因而认为他值得成为容器。 而我想，那始终都在。
S: That may be so, but what about ordinary people like us? Is this a privilege given only to a very very few, one in a thousand years or more, or can this happen to people who are concerned with all this, who are committed to all this, who are really serious in this enquiry?
苏: 可能是那样吧，但是像我们这样的普通人，有什么办法？ 这是一种属于极少数人的特禀吗，千年或更长的时期才会出现这样一个人？ 还是它能够发生在那些关心这一切，投身于这一切，严谨质询这件事情的人身上?
K: To answer this question certain physical factors and psychological states are necessary. Physically there must be sensitivity. Physical sensitivity cannot possibly take place when there is smoking, drinking, eating meat. The sensitivity of the body must be maintained. That is absolutely essential. Traditionally such a body generally remains in one place supported by disciples, by the family. The body is not shocked or exposed.
克：要回答这个问题，某些生理因素和心理状态是必要的。 身体必须是敏感的。 如果吸烟、喝酒、吃肉，那么就不可能有身体的敏感。 这种身体的敏感度必须得以维持。那是必备的根基。 按照传统的说法，像这样的身体一般是居留在由弟子们和家人所支持的地方。 这样的身体没有受到惊吓或暴露。
Can a man who is very serious in all this, can he with a body which has gone through the normal brutalizing effects, can he make that body highly sensitive? And also the psyche that has been wounded through experience, can it throw off all the wounds and marks and renew itself so that there is a state in which there is no hurt? These two are essential - sensitivity and the psyche not having a mark. I think this can be achieved by any person who is really serious. You see the womb is always ready to conceive. It renews itself. P: Like the earth, the womb has that inbuilt quality of renewal.
一个对这一切非常严肃的人 他和他的身体能经受住了正常的残酷的考验吗？ 他能保持身体高度的敏感吗？ 同时，那被受过伤害的心灵 能否抛开所有的伤害和痕迹，并更新它自己，以处于一种没有伤害的状态？ 这两个方面是基础 —— 敏感性和心灵没有一丝痕印。 我想这能够被任何严谨的人达成。 你看，子宫随时准备着孕育，它在更新它自己。 普：像大地一样，这个子宫具有自我更新的内在品质。
K: I think the mind has exactly the same quality. P: The earth is dormant, the womb is quiet and in both there is this inbuilt capacity for renewal. K: The earth, the womb and the mind are of the same quality. When the earth lies fallow and the womb is empty and the mind without any movement, then renewal takes place. When the mind is completely empty, it is like the womb; it is pure to renew, receive.
克：我想这颗头脑也恰恰具有同样的品质。 普：大地是静止的，子宫是安静的，而两者都具有自我更新的内在品质。 克：土地、子宫和头脑具有这种相同的品质。 当土地休耕，子宫空置，头脑没有任何运动的时候，那么，更新就发生了。 当头脑完全地虚无，它就像子宫；它纯洁，更新，受孕。
P: This then is the vessel, the receptacle. K: Yes, this is the vessel, but when you use the word vessel and receptacle, you must be exceedingly careful. This inbuilt quality of the mind to renew itself can be called eternal youth. P: It is known as kumara vidya.
普：那么，这就是器皿，是容器。 克：是的，这就是器皿。当你使用‘器皿’一词的时候，你必须非常小心。 头脑的这种内在品质可以被称作永恒的年轻。 普：它被认为是圣童之道。
K: So what makes the mind old? Obviously the movement of the self makes the mind old. P: Does the self wear away the cells? K: The womb is always ready to receive. It has a quality of purifying itself all the time, but the mind which is burdened with the self - friction is self - has no space to renew itself. When the self is so occupied with itself and its activities, the mind has no space in which to renew itself. So space is necessary, both for the physical and the psyche. How does this go with alchemy?
克：那么是什么让头脑变老？很明显，是自我的活动导致了头脑衰老。 普：自我会损耗这些细胞吗？ 克：子宫随时准备受孕。它总是具有净化它自己的品质。 但是被自我压着的头脑 —— 摩擦就是自我 —— 没有空间进行它自己的更新。 当这个自我被它自己和它的活动所占据的时候，这颗头脑就没有空间进行更新。 因此，空间是必需的，身体和心灵都需要空间。这些与炼金术相符合吗?
P: The language they use is different. They talk of mutation through union. K: All that implies effort, friction. P: How does one know? K: If it implies any form of process, any form of achievement, it implies effort.
普：他们使用的语言不同。他们说，通过结合实现突变。 克：那一切意味着努力，摩擦。 普：一个人怎么知道？ 克：如果它暗含了任何形式的过程，任何形式的成就，那么它就意味着努力。