D: The other day we discussed God. We also discussed energy and you spoke of human energy and cosmic energy. I will state the scientific position. Scientists have measured energy and have arrived at an equation: E=Mc2, a fantastic figure. This is material energy and biologists have also proved that life-energy is anti-entropic, which means that while material energy dissipates itself, life energy does not. So this movement of anti-entropy is against the material flow of energy which dissipates and ends in dead uniformity. The human being generally moves with entropic energy and, therefore, decays. Scientists have measured even the time span of this energy. The problem is therefore: How can man, being aware of this, be part of the movement of energy that is anti-entropic?
德：前几天我们讨论了上帝。 我们还讨论了能源，你谈到了人类能源和宇宙能量。 我将陈述科学立场。 科学家们测量了能量，并得出了一个方程：E=Mc2，一个奇妙的形式。 这是物质能量，生物学家也证明生命能量是反熵的，这意味着当物质能量自行消散时，生命能量不会。 因此，这种反熵的运动是与能量的物质流动相反的，能量的物质流趋向于消散并最终结束。 人类通常以熵能量运动，因此会衰变。科学家甚至测量了这种能量的时间跨度。 因此，问题在于：觉察到这一点的人，怎么能成为反熵能量运动的一部分呢？
K: One can see quite simply, that that which is mechanical wears itself out, given a certain time. D: What is measurable can be manipulated by the mind, by man and that is the why of the atom bomb. This energy, this movement of entropy, dominates the world today. How do we get out of its grip? P: This is a very important point. If there is a movement of energy which does not dissipate itself, which does not end, decay, then from the point of view of the scientist as well as man, it is probably the answer to all the problems of the world.
克：一个人可以很简单地看到，机械的东西在一定时间内会自我磨损。 德：可测量的东西可以被头脑、被人操纵，这就是原子弹的原因。 这种能量，这种熵的运动，主宰着今天的世界。我们如何摆脱它的控制？ 普：这是非常重要的一点。 如果存在一种能量运动，它不会自行地消散、结束、衰减， 那么，从科学家和人类的角度来看，它可能是世界上所有问题的答案。
K: So what are you asking? How is man who is caught in the movement of this mechanical decay - it may take a million years or ten million years - how can that decay be put to an end? Or is there a contrary movement? D: And the nature of that contrary movement? K: Let us put that question again simply. Man is caught in material energy, in mechanical energy; he is caught by technology, by the movement of thought - you get the key to it? D: No.
克：那么，你在问什么？人怎么陷入这种机械的磨损运动 —— 它可能有一百万年或一千万年 —— 如何结束那种磨损？或者，有一种相反的运动吗？ 德：那么这种相反的运动的性质呢？ 克：让我们再简单地提出这个问题。人被物质能、机械能所困； 他被技术，被思想运动所困 —— 你抓住它的关键了吗？ 德：没有。
K: There is the whole field of technological knowledge and the movement in that knowledge; that is the field in which man lives, which has tremendous influence on him, which is really taking him over, absorbing him; the scientists and the biologists have all measured the energy of that movement and that energy is an energy of decay, an energy of waste. Scientists also say that there is a contrary movement of energy in the opposite direction which is creative energy; the real human energy which is non-mechanical, non-technological. Now, what is the question?
克：这里有整个技术知识领域和知识的运动； 这是人所在的领域，对他产生着巨大的影响，左右着他，吸引着他； 科学家和生物学家都测量了这种运动的能量， 这种能量是一种衰变的能量，一种浪费的能量。 科学家还说，存在一种反向的能量运动，也就是创造性的能量； 真正的人类能量是非机械的、非技术的。现在，问题是什么？
D: The modern biologists - Huxley, Chardin - say the species has developed up to man from the smallest cell and in man there is an emergence of consciousness; man as an entity can be conscious of the whole evolutionary process. P: From this another very interesting fact emerges. Chardin says that the next leap forward will come by "a process of seeing" which is the same as the traditional pashyanti. I think it is important to explore this verb which has such a loaded traditional meaning in India. K: We will come to that if we can examine the decaying processes; the energy which is mechanical, which is entropic. We are also trying to find that life-energy, which is non-mechanical energy. What is this energy?
德：现代生物学家赫胥黎、夏尔丁说， 这个物种已经从最小的细胞发展到了人类，在人类中出现了意识； 人作为一个实体可以意识到整个进化过程。 普：由此出现了另一个非常有趣的事实。 夏尔丁说，下一个飞跃将通过“观察的过程”来实现，这与传统的pashyanti相同。 我认为，探索这个在印度具有如此沉重传统含义的动词很重要。 克：我们会遇到这个问题，如果我们能检查这种磨损过程，这种机械的、熵的能量。 我们也试图寻找生命的能量，也就是非机械的能量。这是什么样的能量？
D: Biologists say it lies in cultural development, in the destiny of man, not in a new species emerging. A: This question faces modern man at many levels. After the satellites went up, there was a new measurement of the cosmos. We call that the measurable infinite. But man also knows there is the immeasurable infinite. It comes to modern man the moment he gets out of the immediate and gets to an understanding of the environment in the widest sense. K: Quite. They have measured thought. They have measured memory.
德：生物学家说，它在于文化的发展，在于人类的命运，而不是新物种的出现。 阿：在很多层面上，这个问题都摆在现代人的面前。 卫星升空后，对宇宙进行着新的测量。 我们称之为可测量的无限。但人也知道有不可估量的无限。 当走出眼前的琐碎，从最广泛的意义上理解这整个环境时， 人就会碰到这个问题。 克：当然。他们衡量了思想。他们测量了记忆。
D: If you flow with material energy you are doomed. It is only inviting the entropic movement. F: You said something - that they have measured thought. Do you think thought is measurable ? K: Yes. F: In what sense do you mean this? K: In the sense that the electrical impulses of thought are measured.
德：如果你随着物质的能量流动，你注定失败。它只是在邀请熵运动。 莫：你说，他们衡量了思想。你认为思想是可以衡量的吗？ 克：是的。 莫：你是指？ 克：从某种意义上说，思想的电脉冲被测量出来了。
F: Thought is the measure of entropy. P: Only that which has a beginning and an end can be measured. K: So there is a movement which ultimately, in its very motion, leads to decay. F: It also leads to radiance and that is the end of entropy. There are those two movements - there is a mechanical movement and an anti-mechanical movement. A: The biologist's approach is very tentative when he comes to consciousness. Whenever he speaks of life-energy, he does not speak with the same precision as the other. There is a recognition that the anti-entropic is the unknown, the un-definable. After having said that there is "the other", "the other" is still unknown. D: One fact is certain. That the life-energy does not move in the direction in which the entropic energy moves.
莫：思想是熵的量度。 普：只有那种具有开始和结束的东西，才能被测量。 克：所以，存在一种运动，在它运动的终点，导致磨损。 莫：它也会导致辐射，那就是熵的终结。 有这兩種運動 —— 機械運動和非机械运动。 阿：生物学家在面对意识时，所采取的方法是非常有试探性的。 每当他谈到生命能量时，他所说的精确度都不像其它能量那样精确。 人们认识到反熵是未知的，不可定义的。 在提出“另一种”之后，“另一种”仍然是未知的。 德：有一个事实是肯定的。生命能量不会沿着熵能量的方向移动。
A: Let us take the movement of life-energy as something unknown to us We cannot manipulate it. In the measure that man becomes conscious of the entire evolutionary process in himself, he becomes aware of consciousness. P: I think we are going round in circles. The observable thing is, man is born, lives and dies. The phenomenon of a cyclic movement of beginning and ending of energy is visible and deeply structured in our consciousness - the thing emerging and disappearing, the two manifestations of energy. Is there energy which is not concerned with emerging or disappearing?
阿：让我们把生命能量的运动当作某个我们所不知道的、无法操纵的东西。 在衡量中，人意识到他自己的整个进化过程，他觉察到意识。 普：我认为我们正在兜圈子。可观察的东西是，人出生，生活，然后死亡。 能量从开始到结束的循环运动现象是可见的， 深深的刻在我们的意識中 —— 事物的出现和消失，能量的这兩種现象。 有没有对这种出现或消失都不关心的能量？
K: It is the same thing. Do we accept this that there is a beginning and ending of energy? F: Individuals may begin and end, but life does not. It creates. K: Do not bring in the individual yet. There is a movement of energy which is mechanical, which is measurable, which may end, and there is life-energy which you cannot manipulate; it goes on infinitely. We see that in one case there is wastage of energy and in the other there is non-wastage of energy.
克：它是同一个东西。我们是否接受，存在一种有开始和结束的能量？ 莫：个人可以开始和结束，但生命不会。它创造。 克：先不要带入个人。有一种能量的运动是机械的、可测量的， 它可能会结束，并且，有您无法操纵的生命能量；它无限地继续。 我们看到，在一种情况下存在着能量的浪费，而在另一种情况下，没有能量的浪费。
F: I do not see the other as a fact. K: All right. Let us see the movement of energy which can reach a height and decline. Is there any other form of energy which can never end, which is not related to the energy which begins, continues and withers away? F: That is a legitimate question. D: Is there any form of energy that will not decay? K: Now how are we going to find out? I have got it. What is energy that decays? F: What is the cause of energy you cannot answer.
莫：我不把这另一种看作一个事实。 克：好的。让我们看看这种可衡量的能量的运动。 究竟有没有其它形式的能量，一种永远不结束的，与开始、继续和枯萎无关的能量？ 莫：那是一个合理的问题。 德：有没有不会衰变的能量？ 克：现在，我们该如何找出答案？我抓到一个。什么是衰变的能量？ 莫：能量的起因是什么，你无法回答。
K: What is energy that decays? I did not say what is the cause of energy. P: Material energy decays. Why does it decay? By friction? D: By pressure? K: Is there any other form of energy which does not decay? One decays through friction. Is there any other form which does not decay?
克：衰变的能量是什么？我没有说能量的原因是什么。 普：物质的能量衰变。为什么会衰败？是摩擦吗？ 德：压力？ 克：有没有其他形式的、不会衰变的能量？ 一种通过摩擦而衰败。有不会衰败的吗？
P: Not only does it decay but it is friction. I am positing it. Let us investigate. Its very nature is friction. F: No. I do not understand your method. The fact is that there is energy overcoming friction, and energy dissipating in friction. P: You say there is an energy which decays in friction through friction. I say its very nature is friction. All that movement which we call energy, in itself is friction. Show me why it is not so?
普：它不仅在衰减，而且在摩擦。我在假设它。让我们调查一下。它的本质是摩擦。 莫：没有。我不明白你的方法。事实是，能量在克服摩擦，能量耗散在摩擦中。 普：你说有一种能量通过摩擦在摩擦中衰减。我说它的本质是摩擦。 所有我们称之为能量的运动，本身就是摩擦。告诉我为什么不是那样？
F: What is friction? P: Friction is contradiction, resistance. F: Why should energy be identified with resistance? P: We say the nature of this which we call energy is friction. D: Energy is the capacity, biological capacity, to overcome resistance, but it dissipates itself in this process.
莫：什么是摩擦？ 普：摩擦是矛盾、阻力。 莫：为什么把能量与阻力相提并论？ 普：我们说这种我们称之为能量的本质是摩擦。 德：能量是克服阻力的能力，生物的能力，但它在这个过程中会消散。
K: Like in a machine. P: So it is manifest as friction. K: So is there an energy which has no resistance at all, and therefore.... P: No. When you say that it does not touch resistance, it is not so. Life is full of resistance. How can you say this?
克：就像一台机器。 普：所以它表现为摩擦。 克：那么有没有一种能量完全没有阻力，因此…… 普：没有。当你说它不接触阻力时，事实并非如此。 生命充满了阻力。你怎么能这样说呢？
K: Let us go into this. Any energy that meets resistance wears itself out. A car going up the hill without enough power; the energy created by the machine will wear out. Is there an energy which can never wear out, whether you go uphill, downhill, parallel, vertical? Is there an energy which has no friction in itself? And if it meets resistance, it does not recognize resistance, it does not recognize friction. There is another factor to it. Energy also comes into being through resistance, through manipulation. P: The moment energy crystallizes...... K: Do not say that.
克：让我们进入这个。任何遇到阻力的能量都会自行消耗。 一辆上山的汽车没有足够的动力；机器产生的能量会磨损。 有没有一种能量永远不会消耗，无论你是在上坡、下坡、平行、垂直？ 有没有一种能量本身就没有摩擦？ 如果它遇到阻力，它不会识别阻力，也不会识别摩擦。 它还有另一个因素。能量也是通过阻力，通过操纵而形成的。 普：能量结晶的那一刻…… 克：别那么说。
P: Why, Sir, the human organism is a crystallization. K: The human organism is a field of energy, but do not use the word crystallization.I am keeping it very simple. There is energy that meets resistance and wears itself out. In that whole field, there is the energy brought about through resistance, through conflict, through violence, through growth and decay, through the process of time. Now we are asking, is there any other energy which is not of time, which does not belong to this field?
普：为什么，先生，人类有机体是一种结晶。 克：人体有机体是一个能量场，但不要用结晶这个词。让它保持非常的简单。 能量遇到了阻力，并自我磨损。 在整个领域，存在着通过抵抗、通过冲突、通过暴力、通过增长和衰败、通过时间的进程而带来的能量。 现在，我们问，有没有其他不属于时间，不属于这个领域的能量？
A: Tradition calls it the timeless arrow. F: You are asking whether there is energy which is irresistible? K: No. I only know energy which is in the field of time. It may have a span of ten million years, but it is still in the field of time. That is all we human beings know. And as human beings we are enquiring if there is an energy which is not in the field of time?
阿：传统称之为非时间的箭。 莫：你是问，有没有不可抗拒的能量？ 克：不是。我只知道在时间领域中的能量。 它可能有一千万年的跨度，但它仍然在时间的领域。那就是我们人类所知道的一切。 作为人类，我们在询问：是否有一种能量不在时间的领域内？
F: Do you mean, it is energy that does not undergo any transformation? K: Look. I know energy, the cause of energy, the ending of energy. I know energy as the overcoming of resistance, I know the energy of sorrow, the energy of conflict, of hope, of despair; they are within the field of time. And that is the whole of my consciousness.
莫：你的意思是，它是不经历任何转化的能量吗？ 克：看。我知道能量，能量的原因，能量的终结。 我知道能量是克服阻力，我知道悲伤的能量，冲突的能量，希望的能量，绝望的能量； 它们在时间的领域内。这就是我的全部意识。
I am asking, is there an energy which is not time-bound, which is not within the field of time at all? Is there energy which may go through the field of time and yet not be touched by time? It is very interesting. Man must have asked this question for centuries upon centuries, and not being able to find an answer he said there was God and put God outside the field of time. (Pause)
我在问，有没有一种能量是不受时间限制的，根本不在时间的范围内？ 有没有能量可以穿过时间的领域，却不被时间触及？这很有趣。 人类一定问这个问题，几个世纪又几个世纪， 却找不到答案，他说有上帝，把上帝放在了时间之外。（暂停）
But putting God outside the field of time is to invite God into the field of time. And therefore all that is part of consciousness. And that decays. It decays, if I may use that word, because it is of time, it is divisible. And my mind which is divisible, wanting to find a timeless energy, proceeds to formulate an energy which it calls God and worships that. All that is within the field of time. So I ask, is there any other energy which is not of time? You understand?
但是把上帝放在时间的领域之外，就是邀请上帝进入时间的领域。 因此，所有这些都是意识的一部分。然后，发生了衰败。 它衰败了，如果我可以用这个词的话，因为它是时间的，它是可分割的。 而我的头脑是可分割的，想去找一种非时间的能量， 把它加工成一种能量，称之为上帝，并崇拜它。这一切都在时间的范围内。 所以我问，有没有一种能量不属于时间领域？你理解吗？
D: Yes. K: How do I find out? I reject God, because God is within the field of time. I reject the super-self, the atman, the brahman, the soul, heaven, for they are all within the field of time. Now I ask, is there energy which is timeless? Yes, Sir. There is. Shall we go into it? D: Yes, Sir. K: How do I find out? Consciousness must empty itself of its content. Must it not? D: The question is, I am sitting on a chair, which is my condition of existence. I cannot throw away the chair.
德：是的。 克：我怎么去找？我拒绝上帝，因为上帝在时间的领域内。 我拒絕超我、阿特曼、婆羅門、靈魂、天堂，因為它們都在時間的領域內。 现在，我问，有没有非时间的能量？是的，先生，有。我们要进去吗？ 德：是的，先生。 克：我怎么去发现？意识必须清空它的内容。难道不是吗？ 德：问题是，我坐在椅子上，这是我生存的条件。我不能扔掉椅子。
K: You cannot throw away the chair, but you can throw away the content which time has created which one calls consciousness. D: The question is, if time is consciousness then there has to be something else. K: Wait. The content makes consciousness; otherwise there is no consciousness. P: May I ask something. Is the total emptying of consciousness not the same as seeing the totality of consciousness?
克：你不能扔掉椅子，但你可以扔掉时间创造的内容，一个人称之为意识。 德：问题是，如果时间是意识，那么一定有别的东西。 克：等等。内容造成意识；否则就没有意识。 普：我可以问点什么吗？意识的完全清空，等同于看到意识的整体吗？
K: It is. Agreed. I do not think I have made myself clear. There is the fact of totally emptying consciousness; there is another fact which is seeing with the totality, with all the content. Seeing the field of time as a total state, seeing the whole field of time - now what does that seeing mean? Is that seeing different from the field of time or has that seeing separated itself from the field of time and then thinks it is free and looks at the field of time which is what we call perception?
克：是的。同意。我认为我没有说清楚。 有完全清空意识的这个事实； 还有另一个事实，也就是带着整体，带着所有的内容去看。 把时间的领域看成一个整体，看到整个时间场 —— 现在，这种看意味着什么？ 这种看与时间的领域不同吗， 或者，这种看与时间的领域相分离，并认为它是自由的，然后去看这个时间领域，也就是我们所说的感知？
D: Right, Sir. This perception presupposes a perceiver. K: We go back to the same thing. So the question arises what is total seeing? I see logically, verbally; I comprehend the whole consciousness of man, the whole of it. The whole of it is the content of it and the content of it has been accumulated through time, which is culture, religion, knowledge. Whether it expands or contracts, it is still within the field of time. When it expands, it includes God, not-God, nationalism or no-nationalism. It is the whole movement of consciousness within the field of time. It is time itself. What do you say "D", consciousness is time? D: I have no other instrument but consciousness.
德：对，先生。这种感知以感知者为前提。 克：我们回到同一件事。那么，问题来了，什么是整体的看？ 我从逻辑上看，言语上看；我理解人的全部意識，整個意識。 它的全部就是它的内容 它的内容是随着时间的推移积累起来的，那就是文化、宗教、知识。 无论是扩张还是收缩，都在时间范围内。 当它扩展时，它包括了上帝、非上帝、民族主义或非民族主义。 它是意识在时间领域的整个运动。它是时间本身。 你怎么说，意识是时间？ 德：除了意识，我没有其他的工具。
K: I am aware of that. I see consciousness is time because the content of it is consciousness and the content has been accumulated through centuries upon centuries. D: Consciousness is conflict, friction. K: We know that. How can my mind look at this total field of time and not be of the field? That is the question. Otherwise, it cannot look. Total perception must be free of time. Is there a perception and seeing which is not of time? What do you say?
克：我觉察到这一点。 我看到意识就是时间，因为它的内容就是意识，而内容是几个世纪又几个世纪积累的。 德：意识是冲突，是摩擦。 克：我们知道。我的头脑怎么能看到这个时间的总领域而不属于这个领域？这就是问题所在。 否则，它无法看。完全的感知必须从时间中解放。 有没有一种不是时间的感知和看？你怎么说？
D: That is our question. K: And if it is not of time, then perception is the life-movement. Perception itself is the life-movement. D: Logically that would be so. A: Can we say perception itself is the life-movement? I do not know anything about it. K: Can my mind, which is of time, which is the content of consciousness - content is the accumulated impressions, the experience, the knowledge in time - can my mind being totally of time, disassociate itself from the total field? Or is there a perception which is not of time and therefore sees the totality?
德：那就是我们的问题。 克：如果不是时间，那么感知就是这个生命的运动。感知本身就是生命运动。 德：从逻辑上讲是这样。 阿：我们可以说，感知本身就是生命运动吗？我对此一无所知。 克：我的头脑，是时间的，是意识的内容吗？ —— 内容是累积的印象，体验，时间中的知识 —— 我的头脑完全是时间的，可以脱离整个领域吗？ 或者，有一种不属于时间的感知，因此看到了这个整体？
P: What I would say is I just cannot posit the "other". "A" is correct. A: The moment I posit it, it becomes the God of the Upanishads. When you say it, I listen. K: I have not yet said anything. A: All I can say is that seeing that all consciousness is within the field of time, I can remain with it. I am "it". K: You are "it". Somebody comes along and says that movement within the field of time is measurable and he asks is there a perception - he does not say there is or there is not - is there a perception which sees the totality of consciousness which is time? Is there such a perception? That is a legitimate question.
普：我想说的是，我只是不能假设“另一种”。“阿”是正确的。 阿：当我提出它的那一刻，它就变成了《奥义书》上的上帝。当你说的时候，我听。 克：我还没有说什么。 阿：我只能说，看到所有的意识都在时间的领域内，我就可以坚持下去。我是“它”。 克：你就是“它”。有人走过来说 时间领域的运动是可以测量的，他问是否有一种感知 —— 他没有说有或没有 —— 是否存在一种感知，看见意识的整体，也就是看见时间？ 有这样的看吗？这是一个合理的问题。
P: May I say something? I see you. I see this room. I see the interiority of my consciousness. There is no more than that. I can see. It is a concrete thing. Seeing is concrete. K: Are we wasting time? P: We are not. We have to be concrete. This is seeing.
普：我可以说点什么吗？ 我看见你。我看见这个房间。我看见我意识的内在性。仅此而已。 我能看。它是一个具体的事情。眼见为实。 克：我们在浪费时间吗？ 普：我们不是。我们必须具体。这就是看。
K: I understand "P", Here I am sitting in this room. I see the content of the room and myself in it. Myself is the observer who is conscious of the room, the proportion of room, the space of the room, and I see this through the consciousness which is made up of time. P: I have taken a step back. Because I am seeing not only the length and breadth of the room, I see X as separate from Y; I am seeing. All this is the content of this room. K: That is right. The observer and the observed are within the field of time. That is all. When the observer invents something, that is still within the field of time. So any movement is within the field of time. That is all I know. That is a fact. But knowing that, somebody comes along and asks: Is there a movement which is not of time? And that is a legitimate question.
克：我理解“普”，我坐在这个房间里。我看见房间里的内容和我自己。 我自己是这位观察者，他意识到这个房间、房间的比例、房间的空间， 通过由时间组成的意识，我看到了这。 普：我后退了一步。 因为我不仅看到房间的长度和宽度，我看到X与Y是分开的；我在看。 所有这些都是这个房间的内容。 克：没错。观察者和被观察者都在时间的领域内。仅此而已。 当观察者发明某物时，那仍然在时间的领域内。 因此，任何运动都在时间的范围内。那就是我所知道的。那是一个事实。 但是知道了那，有人走过来问：有没有一种不属于时间的运动？那是一个合理的问题。
P: I do not know. K: You can put it to yourself. Therefore, it is legitimate, because the very putting of it is legitimate. It may be a wrong question. P: Putting it makes it a fact, not legitimate. D: But it is a question. Question implies something more than a fact. K: Which means, can the mind - I am proceeding from the question - see the totality of itself? Have you understood my question? Can the mind see itself as the field of time - not as an observer seeing the field of time? Can the mind itself become totally aware so that it sees consciousness as time? It is fairly simple.
普：我不知道。 克：你可以把它放在你自己身上。因此，它是合法的，因为，问自己这个问题是合法的。 它可能是一个错误的问题。 普：把它变成一个事实，而不是合法。 德：但这是一个问题。问题意味着不仅仅是某个事实。 克：这意味着，这颗头脑 —— 我从这个问题出发 —— 能看到它的整体吗？ 你理解我的问题了吗？頭腦能不能看到这个作为时间领域的它自己 —— 而不是一个观察者看到这个時間领域？ 这颗头脑能否亲自完全觉察到那，从而看到作为时间的意识？这是相当简单的。
P: I do not see that. What is involved in seeing consciousness as time? We started with this. There is a seeing of this room, the interiority of the self, the not dividing the two, the outer and the inner; that is the totality of time. There is no other totality. A: Seeing the transitoriness is the seeing. P: Where is the transitoriness? That is a loaded word. I just see.
普：我确实没有看到那。在看到作为时间的意识之中，涉及到什么？我们从这里开始。 可以看这个房间，看自我的内在，而不去区分两者，这种外在和内在； 那就是时间的整体。没有其他的整体。 阿：看到这种短暂性，就是看。 普：短暂性在哪里？那是一个沉重的词。我只是看。
D: If you just see then you do not see. The mind is part of time. F: It is so clear. She only sees a section of me. P: You are accepting too easily what Krishnaji is saying. K: I only know one thing: I am the totality of consciousness. P: The totality of consciousness at this moment is the perceiving of the room and the interiority within me. That is all. F: That is not all. P: What else is there? A: The other is seeing me not only as a person but as a vast process. D: When you say "I see", is it a static movement you see or do you see movement as flux? P: I see that. (Pointing) I see you talking the next minute. Where is flux in it? A: Do you mean that the totality of what you perceive is in time? P: I do not say that. I say where does time arise? A: Is it seeing as static or as movement? B: It will not do for us to conceptualize it.
德：如果你只是看，那么你就看不到。这颗頭腦是時間的一部分。 莫：它太清楚了。她只看到自我的一部分。 普：你太容易接受克里希那吉所说的话了。 克：我只知道一件事：我是这个意识的整体。 普：此刻，这个意识的整体，就是对房间和我的内在的感知。仅此而已。 莫：那还不是全部。 普：还有别的吗？ 阿：另一个是不仅看到我这个人，而且看到一个广阔的过程。 德：当你说“我看”时，你看到的是一种静态的运动，还是流动性的？ 普：我看那。（指向）我看到你在下一分钟说话了。其中的流动性在哪里？ 阿：你的意思是，你感知到的全部是在时间之内？ 普：我不是这么说的。我是说，时间从哪里来？ 阿：它是静态的还是运动的？ 芭：我们把它概念化是不行的。
P: When I am observing thought, I see it as flux. I see movement. I see thought as movement; I wake up to a thought having been, then again of thought having been, then again of thought having been. And I put these together and say there is movement. When Krishnaji says "perceive this room", I perceive the room, the interiority; there is no perception of time. It is the active present.
普：当我观察思想时，我把它看作是流动性的。我看到运动。我认为思想是运动； 我醒来时，想到一个想法，然后又想到了曾经的想法，然后又想到一个。 我把这些放在一起，然后我说，那就是运动。 当克里希那吉说“感知这个房间”时，我感知到这个房间、这里面的内容；这种感知与时间无关。 它是这个活泼的现在。
K: What is it that you are trying to say, "P"? P: Your statement of the perception of consciousness as a movement of time is not valid. If we do not get the concreteness of seeing, we move into the field of the conceptual. K: What you are saying, are you not, is that you perceive when you enter the room, the proportion, the space, the colour, and you perceive consciousness with the same tactile feel?
克：你想说是什么，普普尔？ 普：你把对意识的感知为一种时间运动，这种说法是站不住脚的。 如果我们没有得到看的具体性，我们就会进入概念的领域。 克：你说的是，你不是吗？ 当你进入这个房间时，你感知到比例、空间、颜色， 带着同样的触觉，你去感知意识吗？
P: Then "A" speaks and I perceive that. Then I connect the two, and thought brings in time. There is no time apart from the connection. K: If there is perception, there is no time. I look and there is no time. P: You asked a question, "Do you see consciousness as the whole content of time?" I questioned that statement - I want to examine it with a microscope.
普：然后，阿克尤特说话，我感知到了。 接着，我把两者联系起来，思想带来了时间。除了这种连接之外，并没有时间。 克：如果有感知，就没有时间。我看，没有时间。 普：你问了一个问题，“你是否看到作为时间的整个内容的意识？” 我质疑那种说法 —— 我想用显微镜检查它。
K: My mind is the result of time - memory, experience, knowledge. My consciousness is within the field of time. How can I see that the whole content is within the field of time? P: Because of memory, of thought. K: How can I see that the whole content is within the field of time? Is it a conclusion which we have arrived at just now or is it an actual perception? Let us go slowly. We have said verbally that my mind, the brain, the whole of it is the result of time. Is that a conclusion, or do I see it as a fact and not as a conclusion? Right, Sirs? P: How would you distinguish the two? K: One is a formula, a conclusion, a statement, the other I am finding out.
克：我的头脑是时间的结果 —— 记忆、体验、知识。 我的意识在时间的领域内。我怎样才能看到整个内容都在时间的领域内？ 普：因为记忆，因为思想。 克：我怎样才能看到整个内容都在时间领域内？ 这是我们刚才得出的结论，还是真实的感知？让我们慢点儿。 我们口头上说过，我的思想，大脑，整个大脑都是时间的结果。 那是一个结论，还是我看见它是一个事实而不是一个结论？对吧，先生们？ 普：你如何区分这两者？ 克：一个是公式，一个结论，一个陈述，另一个是我正在发现的。
P: I find it very difficult. You know what you are trying to do, Sir? Can there be a perception of an abstraction? The moment thought is not, "what is" is an abstraction. K: Wait. You have drawn your conclusions. I have not come to any. When you say it is an abstraction, it is a conclusion. P: I ask myself, when I say that consciousness is the product of time, is it a statement or is it something I can see? K: Is it a statement with verbal meaning, which I accept, and therefore it becomes a conclusion, or is it an actual fact as this room, an actual fact that the whole of my brain, the whole of my consciousness is this enormous field of time? Is it as concrete as that?
普：我觉得它很难。先生，你知道你在尝试做什么吗？ 能不能有一种抽象的感知？在思想没有的那一刻，“什么是”是一个抽象。 克：等等。你已经得出结论。我什么都没有引入。当你说它是一个抽象时，它就是一个结论。 普：我问自己，当我说意识是时间的产物时，它是一个陈述，还是某个我能看到的东西？ 克：它是一个言语上的陈述，而我接受它，因此成了结论？ 还是像这个房间一样，是真切的事实， 一个真切的事实：我的整个大脑，我的整个意识就是这个巨大的时间领域？ 它有那么具体吗？
P: How can it be as concrete as the other? K: I will show it to you in a minute. I see a conclusion is not a fact, because thought has entered into it and heard this statement and accepts it and makes it a formula and remains with that formula. That is an abstraction. A formula is an abstraction created by thought and therefore it is the cause of conflict. It is the very nature of conflict. I see that very clearly. Now, is there a perception which is not of thought, of the total field of time as the mind? Formulas are the most deadly things. Formulas and concepts are products of thought and, therefore, are all within the field of time. P: Why is it necessary to make this absolute statement at all? Why is it necessary to make an absolute, finite, statement?
普：它怎么能像另一个一样具体？ 克：我一会儿向你展示它。我看到，结论不是一个事实， 因为思想已经进入它，听到了这个陈述，接受它，把它变成一个公式，并坚持那个公式。 它是一个抽象的概念。公式是由思想创造的抽象，因此它是冲突的原因。 它是冲突的本质。我看得很清楚。 现在，有没有一种感知，不是思想，不在作为这个头脑的整个时间的领域内？ 公式是最致命的东西。 公式和概念是思想的产物，因此都在时间领域内。 普：为什么有必要做出这种绝对的陈述？ 为什么有必要做出一个绝对的、定性的陈述？
K: I will show you in a minute. I am enquiring into the field of time. Time, we said, is consciousness. Time is the result of centuries upon centuries of experience. That is my consciousness, and the consciousness is made up of all the content. I hear you state that and thought picks it up and makes a formula of it. I see that the very formula is within the field of time, that very formula is the factor of friction. So I do not touch it. I have negated it. I am now asking myself; have I negated it? Or am I still thinking, feeling that I have negated it? Am I still trying to find a fact which is not within the field of time? (Pause)
克：我会在一分钟内向你展示它。我正在调查时间领域。 我们说，时间是意识。时间是几个世纪又几个世纪的体验的结果。 那就是我的意识，意识是由所有这些内容组成的。 我听到你这么说，思想把它捡起来，把它制造成一个公式。 我看到，这个公式就在时间的领域内，这个公式就是摩擦因素。 所以，我不碰它。我已经拒绝了它。我现在问我自己；我拒绝它了吗？ 或者，我还是在思考，在感觉，以为我已经拒绝了它？ 我是，我仍在尝试寻找一个不在时间范围内的事实？（暂停）
I am finding something - when thought operates, it must operate within the field of time, it must come to a conclusion and conclusion is part of consciousness; that is all. I now ask myself, is there any movement of thought or am I pretending to myself that there is no movement of thought and only perception? When I come to this room, I see. There is no movement of thought. I just see. The moment thought comes in, it comes into the field of time. Now I am asking, is the mind deceiving itself by saying "I have no formula", but is entrenched in formula; formula being thought, which is consciousness? Or is there a perception which has nothing whatsoever to do with thought? I only know that all consciousness is within the field of time and thought is consciousness.
我发现了某个东西 —— 当思想运作时，它必定在时间的领域内， 它必定得出一个结论，而结论，就是意识的一部分；仅此而已。 我现在问我自己，有一丝的思想吗， 或者，我是在假装我自己没有思想，而只有感知？ 当我来到这间房，我看。没有思想的运动。我只是看。 思想进入的那一刻，它就进入了时间的领域。 现在，我问，头脑是否通过说“我没有公式”而欺骗它自己， 却根深蒂固地纠缠于公式中，就是思想、意识中？ 还是有一种与思想无关的感知？ 我只知道所有的意识都在时间的领域内，思想就是意识。
Therefore, I am enquiring - I do not want to deceive myself, I do not want to pretend that I have got something which I have not got. I see whenever thought comes into being, it must create a formula, and the formula is within the field of time. The whole of consciousness is time. I hear you say this. Now is it a formula which I have accepted or is it a fact - the fact being there is a perception of the total movement of thought?
因此，我在调查 —— 我不想欺骗我自己，我不想假装我得到了某个我没有得到的东西。 我看到，每当思想形成时，它必定创造出一个公式，而这个公式就在时间的领域内。 整个意识就是时间。我听你这么说。 现在，它是我已经接受的一个公式，还是一个事实 —— 这个现存的事实：一个对思想的整体运动的感知？
P: You see, Sir, these are words which you use - the total movement of thought - what is meant by those words? When you ask whether we have accepted it as a formula, I have neither accepted it as a formula nor is it a fact. It is neither of these. K: But by listening, by examining, by investigating, you say this is so. It is not a question of accepting. Now, move a step further. Is that "it is so", an acceptance of an idea, intellectual and therefore still within the field of time? P: I will never answer that question to you or to myself. K: I am asking it. P: What do I answer?
普：先生，你看，这些是你用的词 —— 思想的整体运动 —— 这些词是什么意思？ 当你问我们，是否把它作为一个公式接受时，我既没有把它作为一个公式来接受，它也不是事实。 这些都不是它。 克：但是通过听，通过检查，通过调查，你这么说。它不是一个接受的问题。 现在，进一步移动。 这种说法‘它就是那样’，是对一个观念的接受，在智力上，因此仍然在时间的领域内吗？ 普：我永远不会回答这个问题，无论是向你或我自己。 克：我在问它。 普：我该怎么回答？
K: You are not asking that question. You know nothing about it. I want to find out whether the mind that is the result of time, hearing that statement, does it accept it as a statement, as a formula, and therefore remains in time, or it sees the truth, it sees the fact. Then what takes place? It is a fact. Nothing more can be said when thought does not arise. I see the room, but the moment thought says it has proportion, colour, beauty, time enters - you follow? In the same way this whole field of time exists only when thought operates. Now am I pretending that this operation is a formula or is it a fact which is realizable, which we can be aware of? Or is thought completely absent, and only aware of time and nothing more? Then what takes place? I am aware of this room without any interference of time.
克：你不是在问那个问题。你对它一无所知。 我想找出，这颗头脑是不是时间的产物，听到那个陈述， 它是否作为一个陈述，作为一个公式而被接受，因此，依然留在时间中， 还是，它看到这个真理，它看到这个事实。那么，在发生什么？它是一个事实。 当思想没有冒出的时候，就不能再说了。 我看到这个房间，但是，在那一刻，思想说它有比例、颜色、美，时间进入 —— 你跟着吗？ 同样，只有在思想运作的时候，整个时间领域才存在。 现在，我假装这种运作是一个公式，还是一个我们触碰到的、觉察到的事实？ 或者，思想完全地缺席，只觉察到时间而没有其它的？ 那么，在发生什么？我意识到这个房间，没有任何时间的干涉。
P: At this moment, this instant what are you aware of? K: The mind which is the result of time, hearing what you are saying, that the whole of consciousness is time, accepts that as a formula and says, "yes". the statement "yes" is the perception of a conclusion which is the operation of thought. Therefore, I see that there is still time operating in that sense. So is there an operation of perception without thought? What takes place then?
普：在此时，这一刻，你觉察到什么？ 克：这颗头脑是时间的产物，聽你在說什么，整個意識就是時間， 把它作为一个公式而接受，并说“是的”。这个陈述“是”，就是对一个结论的感知，结论就是思想的运作。 因此，我看到，在那个意义上，依然是在时间中运作。 那么，是否存在一种没有思想的感知运作？那么，在发生什么？
P: What are you perceiving at this moment? (Pause) K: (Makes a gesture brushing one hand over the other) Nothing. That is it. It is logically right. A: When we come, when we hear, the next moment it has become a memory. K: I am not concerned about you at all. Forgive me. I am not concerned whether you see or do not see. I said to you I am going to investigate. I am investigating. You are not investigating. You are merely remaining with the formula. I see this fact. Am I perceiving the formula with a formula, or perceiving without a movement of thought without a formula? Then "P" asks me, in that state what is there to perceive? Absolutely nothing, because it is not of time. That is the factor of life-energy. F: The state which you are just now describing can be called entropy of thought, a state where no movement is possible any more. K: You are not investigating. F: It has not ended here. You are ending it.
普：你此刻在感知什么？（暂停） 克：（做一个手势，用一只手摸另一只手）什么都没有。就是那样。它在逻辑上是正确的。 阿：当我们过来，当我们听的时候，在下一刻，它就变成了一段记忆。 克：我一点也不关心你。原谅我。我不关心你看到还是看不到。 我对你说，我要去调查。 我正在调查。你没有调查。你只是留在公式上。 我看到了这个事实。我在用公式感知公式，或者，是在没有公式的情况下感知思想运动？ 然后，普普尔问我，在那种状态下有什么可感知的？ 绝对没有，因为它不属于时间。这就是生命能源的因子。 莫：你刚才描述的状态可以称为思想熵，一种不再可能有运动的状态。 克：你不是在调查。 莫：它还没有在此结束。你正在结束它。
P: I want to ask another question. You say that there is nothing. Is there movement? K: What do you mean by movement, before I say yes or no? P: From here to there. K: Measurable, comparable. Measurable means movement. The movement, when it is measured, is within the field of time. Right? And you are asking me whether in that nothingness, there is movement? To you movement is measurable and if I say there is, you will then tell me it is measurable and therefore it is in time. P: There is movement in nothingness. K: Which means what? The movement of time is one thing and the movement of nothingness is not of time, therefore not measurable. But it has its own movement which you cannot possibly understand unless you leave the movement of time. And that is infinite and that movement is infinite.
普：我想问另一个问题。你说什么都没有。有动静吗？ 克：在我说是或否之前，你说的运动是指什么意思？ 普：从这里到那里。 克：可测量的，可比较的。可测量性意味着运动。 这个运动，在它被测量时，是在时间的领域内。对吗？ 你问我，在那虚无中，是否有运动？ 对你来说，运动是可以测量的，如果我说有，你就会告诉我它是可以测量的，因此它属于时间。 普：虚无中有运动。 克：那意味着什么？时间的运动是一回事，虚无的运动不是时间的运动，因此是不可测量的。 但是它有自己的运动，除非你离开时间的运动，否则你不可能理解它。 那是无限的，那种运动是无限的。