27 INTELLIGENCE AND THE INSTRUMENT 智慧和仪器

P: I wanted to ask you Krishnaji, if there is one question which needs to be asked by the individual, which would open the door to reality. Can all questions be reduced to the one question? F: Is there such a thing as a door? We cannot ask a question about that, for which there can be no metaphor. K: I think she asks, in the sense of a door, an opening, a breakthrough. F: From your own experience what would you say is breaking-through? There is no point of reference. K: What is the question? P: There are many things which we have discussed during the last few days. Can all these questions converge into one question? K: I think so.

普：我想问你，克里希那吉， 如果个人需要问一个问题，这将打开通往现实的大门。 所有问题都可以简化为一个问题吗？ 莫：有这样的东西吗？我们不能就此提出问题，对此没有任何比喻。 克：我想她问的是，一扇门、一个开口、一个突破口。 莫：根据你自己的体验，你认为什么是突破？没有参考点。 克：这个问题是什么？ 普：过去几天，我们讨论了很多东西。所有这些问题可以汇聚成一个问题吗？ 克：我想是的。

F: I would not put it that way. I come to you because in you there is an imponderable quality, a tiny seed of something which makes you entirely different. I do not look for differences in manifestation, but there is in you a tiny little touch of something, that "elseness" of yours - now is there a key to that? Is there a question which opens that up? B: If I may ask, what is it that prevents one from seeing? The difficulty is with us. Last evening when we heard Krishnaji's talk we felt that there was nothing which we would not be prepared to do, if it was in us to do it. Can all that you say be held in one question? To you it is a very simple thing. You have an amazing capacity of converting diversity into a single thing. This convergence has not taken place in us. Could there be some action which would make all questions melt into one question?

莫：我不会这么说。 我來你这儿，是因為在你身上有一種不可估量的品質，一顆微小的种子，使你完全不同。 我不是在寻找表现上的差异， 但是，在你身上有一点东西，你的“其他” —— 现在，那里有一把钥匙吗？ 有没有一个问题可以打开它？ 芭：如果我可以问，是什么阻止了一个人看？这个困难困扰着我们。 昨晚，当我们听到克里希那吉的谈话时， 我们感到没有什么是我们没有准备去做的，如果它在我们里面运作的话。 你说，能不能放在一个问题中？对你来说，这是一件非常简单的事情。 你有将多样性转化为单一事物的惊人能力。这种趋同力并没有在我们身上发生。 是否有某个行为可以使所有问题融化为一个问题？

P: I would further ask, if it were not possible to simplify all questions into one question, is there an instrument and what is that instrument which will make this possible? There is one interesting fact that I have observed in what Krishnaji has been saying in the last few days, and that is, he does not say thought is totally unnecessary. He says thought has a place and thought has no place. There is a region where thought is necessary and there is a region where thought has no function. The mechanism which makes it possible for thought to operate only where it should and not where it should not, without any evaluation, without the operation of will, without a doer, without a director, without a trick; that instrument, that mechanism is the essential thing. How does it happen that thought arises only where it legitimately should function and does not impinge into areas where it should not function, because there thought has investment in illusion? K: Now what is the question?

普：我会进一步问，如果不可能将所有问题简化为一个问题， 有没有一种仪器，该仪器会使这成为可能？ 在过去几天里，我观察到克里希那吉所说的话，有一个有趣的事实， 也就是说，他并没有说思想是完全没有必要的。 他说思想有一席之地，却没有地位。 有一个区域需要思想，有一个区域思想没有功能。 这种机制使思想只能在它应该在的地方运作，而在不应该的地方则不运作， 没有任何评价，没有意志的运作，没有做的人，没有行动者，没有任何把戏； 那个仪器，那种机制是至关重要的。 思想只在它合法之地，发挥它的作用 思想只在适合它的地方、在它应该发挥功能的时候冒出， 并且不会侵犯它不应该发挥作用的领域，因为在那里，思想是在投入幻觉，这是怎么发生的？ 克：现在，这个问题是什么？

P: What is the instrument? How does this happen? We have examined our minds with a microscope. Now we ask under whose command do the brain cells function? What happens to them if there is no one to direct, to command? K: I thought "K" explained yesterday that it is intelligence. D: It is the same thing. Intelligence means instrument. K: Let us keep to the word "intelligence". D: How does it happen? Intelligence functions in different dimensions. The artist, the philosopher use intelligence, but that is not intelligence. K: Intelligence is that quality of mind which can use knowledge, all the vast field of knowledge, but not use knowledge in another field. F: The difference that exists between me and you, is it in the degree of intelligence or is there another factor operating in you?

普：这个仪器是什么？这是怎么发生的？我们用显微镜检查了我们的头脑。 现在我们问，脑细胞在谁的指挥下运作？如果没有人指挥、命令，在发生什么？ 克：我想“K”昨天的解释是智慧。 德：是同一个东西。智慧意味着仪器。 克：让我们继续使用“智慧”这个词。 德：它是怎么发生的？智慧在不同维度上运作。 藝術家、哲學家使用智慧，但那不是智慧。 克：智慧是头脑的那种品质， 它能在所有广阔的知识领域内使用知识，在别领域却不使用知识。 莫：我和你之间的区别，是智慧的高低，还是你身上有其他因素在起作用？

B: The question then would be emptiness? K: Let us see. Can the mind empty the whole content of itself as the past, so that it has no motive? Can it empty itself and can that emptiness use knowledge, pick it up, use it and drop it, but always remain empty? Emptiness in the sense of the mind being nothing; emptiness which has its own movement, which is not measurable in terms of time. A movement which is in emptiness, which is not the movement of time, that movement can operate in the field of knowledge and there is no other operation. That movement can only operate in the field of knowledge and nowhere else.

芭：那么问题来了，虚无是？ 克：让我们看看。头脑能不能把它自己的全部内容，也就是过去，清空掉，这样它就没有了动机？ 它能清空它自己吗？虚无能不能使用知识，捡起它，使用它，放下它，却总是保持空灵？ 头脑的虚无是一种什么都没有的感觉；虚无有它自己的运动，无法用时间来衡量。 一种空灵的运动，它不是时间的运动， 这种运动可以在知识的领域内运作，不在其余的地方运作。 这种运动只在知识领域运作，而不能在其他地方运作。

P: Are they two movements? K: That is why I said that movement can operate only in knowledge; it has no two movements. Please follow. I am just investigating. You are asking a question, which is, that from what you have observed in your talks here, "K" has divided knowledge and freedom from knowledge. Knowledge operating in the field of science in which there must be a certain will, a certain direction, an operative function, a design; and knowledge not operating where there is no place for thought and therefore of will. B: You mean not even thought which is more than will? K: Of course. Let us get the question clear. I am a little bit doubtful of the question.

普：它们是两种运动吗？ 克：这就是为什么我说运动只能在知识中运作；没有两种运动。请跟上。 我只是在调查。你问一个问题，那就是， 在这些谈话中，你观察到，“K”已经区分了知识和知识的解放。 在科学领域运作的知识，其中必须有一定的意志，一定的方向，运作的功能，设计； 以及在没有思想，因而也没有意志的领域内，思想不运作。 芭：你的意思是，思想更甚于意志？ 克：当然。让我们把问题弄清楚。我对这个问题有点怀疑。

F: It seems sometimes we operate deliberately and sometimes non-deliberately. I can see I do something of which I know nothing, and yet I operate. So there are these two operations: mental and non-mental. The movement of the two are not separate. K: Watch your own mind, "F". You see thought operating always within the field of knowledge. The knowledge brings pain and that knowledge helps man to live more comfortably environmentally. Right? - and that thought also brings misery, confusion. That is a fact. F: I object to the "always". K: Wait. Then you and I ask, is thought necessary? Why does it create misery? Is it possible for thought not to create misery? That is all. Keep it as simple as this.

莫：似乎，有时我们故意运作，有时是非故意的。 我可以看到，我做了一些我一无所知的事情，但我在运作。 所以，这里有两种运作：精神和非精神的。两者的运动不是分开的。 克：注意你自己的头脑，莫里斯。你看，思想总是在知识的领域内运作。 知识带来痛苦，知识帮助人类在环境中生活得更舒适。 对吗？—— 这种思想也带来了痛苦和困惑。这是事实。 莫：我反对“总是”。 克：等等。当你和我问，思想是有必要的吗？ 为什么它造成痛苦？思想有可能不制造痛苦吗？仅此而已。就这样，让它保持简单。

F: My answer to that is the roots of misery are not known to me. The promptings which create misery, I do not know. K: We began with the superficial layers. Now we will go into the secret chambers of the mind. P: Surely we are not positing a state of consciousness where thought will operate at the technological level and at the day-to-day level of action where necessary, and if by some kind of trick, electric shock, all other consciousness as thought were to be wiped away, it would be enough? We are not postulating that surely. K: Of course not. P: But look Sir, the moment you speak of a place where thought can operate legitimately and a place where thought has no legitimate place you are postulating the other - a state which is non-thought. If consciousness is only content, then what is the other?

莫：我的回答是，我不知道痛苦的根源。我不知道这种造成痛苦的潜在因子。 克：我们从表层开始。现在，我们将进入头脑的密室。 普：当然，我们不是在假设一种意识状态。 思想将在技术层面上运作，必要时在日常行动层面上运作， 如果通过某种技巧，电击，所有其他思想的意识都被抹去，就足够了吗？ 我们并不是在假设这一点。 克：当然不是。 普：但是先生，你看， 当你谈到在某个地方，思想可以合法地运作，在另一个地方思想没有合法的地位 你是在假设另一个 —— 一种没有思想的状态。 如果意识只是内容，那么另一个是什么？

D: I can go into a state of constant euphoria. Is that enough? This can happen through lobotomy. K: Then you become a vegetable. D: Then if that is not so, what else is there in consciousness? F: When you said that thought is consciousness, it is there that I put a question mark? Is thought the entirety of consciousness? Can we say that consciousness is nothing beyond thought? I would question this.

德：我可以进入一种持续的陶醉状态。那就够了吗？这可以通过脑叶切除术发生。 克：那你就变成了植物人。 德：那么，如果不是这样，意识中还有什么呢？ 莫：你说，思想就是意识，我打了一个问号，思想是意识的全部吗？ 我们能说‘除了思想之外，意识什么都不是’吗？我会质疑这一点。

K: So we have to go into the question of consciousness. B: We are going back. You used the word "intelligence" in a different way. That word is the key, if we know what it is. P: But this also a very valid question: if content is thought, if all consciousness is content and it is legitimate for thought to function in the field of technology, and all impinging of thought in the psychological direction is pain, then cutting thought away, will it solve the problem? K: No.

克：所以，我们必须进入意识的问题。 芭：我们在往回走。你以不同的方式使用了“智慧”这个词。这个词是关键，如果我们知道它是什么。 普：但这也是一个非常有效的问题：如果内容是思想，如果所有的意识都是内容。 思想在技术领域发挥作用是合法的， 而所有思想在心理方向上的冲击都是痛苦，那么把思想斩断，会解决问题吗？ 克：不能。

P: Then what is the "other"? F: Intelligence is different from consciousness. We must distinguish between the two. Intelligence is much vaster than consciousness. We can have unconscious intelligence. P: What is consciousness? K: What is consciousness? There is a waking consciousness, there is hidden consciousness; consciousness of certain parts of me, of the superficial mind, and a lack of total awareness of the deeper layers of consciousness.

普：那么，什么是“另一个”？ 莫：智慧不同于意识。我们必须区分这两者。 智慧比意识要广阔得多。我们可以有无意识的智慧。 普：什么是意识？ 克：什么是意识？有清醒的意识，有隐藏的意识； 我有一部分意识，浅表层的头脑的意识，以及更深层的、没有被完全地觉察到的意识。

P: I would say, Krishnaji, that there is a consciousness in which thought operates, then there is a consciousness where attention is and where there is seeing; and a consciousness which is unconscious of thought. I see these three states as they operate in me. K: Three states which are the memory, - P: Being awake when thought is not, - K: Wait, wait. The memory, the operation of memory as thought, as action; then attention, a state of attention where there is no thinker. P: And a state of being asleep when you are not aware of thought nor of attention.

普：我会说，克里希那吉，有一种意识在思想中运作， 然后，有一种意识，那里有注意，一种看； 以及一种对无意识的思想。我看到这三种状态在我身上运作。 克：三种状态是记忆 —— 普：在清醒的时候，没有思想 —— 克：等等，等等。这种记忆，这种记忆的运作，就是思想，就是行为； 然后，有注意，一种没有思考者的注意的状态。 普：还有当你没有意识或注意时，一种睡着的状态。

K: So you are saying there is the operation of thought, memory, having been and will be. Then there is a state of attention and there is a state in which there is neither attention nor thought, but a sense of being half asleep. P: Half awake, half asleep. K: All this is what you would call consciousness. Right? P: In all these states whether consciously or unconsciously, sensory perceptions are in operation.

克：所以，你是说有思想、记忆、过去和将来的运作。 然后是一种注意的状态 有一种状态，既没有注意也没有思想，而是一种半睡半醒的感觉。 普：半苏醒，半瞌睡。 克：所有这些，都是你所说的意识。对吗？ 普：在所有这些状态中，无论是有意的还是无意的，感官知觉都在运作。

F: Do not bring in the unconscious. Do not call the unconscious a form of consciousness. D: I wanted to ask whether we cannot include dreams also into it; that is the unconscious part. F: Dreams are dreams because they become conscious. P: The state in which one spends a large part of the day, one goes out, images come and go; that is still consciousness. F: This is a patchy thing. The point is consciousness is not a continuous phenomenon.

莫：不要带入无意识。不要称无意识为一种意识形式。 德：我想问一下，我们是否不能将梦也包括在内；那是无意识的部分。 莫：夢之所以是夢，是因為它們没有变成意識。 普：一个人一天中大部分时间都在这种状态，一个人走神，思想来来去去；那仍然是意识。 莫：这是个不完整的东西。关键是意识不是一个连续的现象。

K: Can we start this way? I am just being tentative - there is consciousness, wide or narrow, deep or shallow. As long as there is a centre which is conscious of itself, that centre may expand or contract. That centre says I am aware or not aware. That centre can attempt to go beyond the limitations which it has placed around itself. That centre has its deep roots in the cave and super-ficially operates. All that is consciousness. In all that there must be a centre.

克：我们可以这样开始吗？我只是试探性的 —— 有意识，宽或窄，深或浅。 只要有一个中心意识到它自己，那个中心可能扩大或收缩。 那个中心说，我意识到或没有意识到。 那个中心能够试图超越它对自己施加的限制。 那个中心深深植根于洞穴中，并在表面上运作。 那一切，就是意识。那一切中，必定有一个中心。

P: May I ask you a question? Let us be very careful. Would you say there is no operation of consciousness in you? K: We will come to that presently. That is not the point. A: I wanted to ask whether there is such a thing as the matrix in which there is not even a centre, because it is out of that the centre is formed? K: Matrix? A: Matrix is thought; the matrix of temporality. P: Consciousness is that which registers. It is the only thing which distinguishes life from a state of death. As long as there is registering there is no death. K: Are we speculating? Look, let us begin very simply. When are you actually conscious? P: When I am awake, when I am aware. K: I would begin very simply. When am I conscious? P: I am conscious of this discussion.

普：我可以问你一个问题吗？让我们非常小心。 你会说，你的里面，没有意识在运作吗？ 克：我们现在就谈这个问题。那不是重点。 阿：我想问，是否存在本质这样的东西，在它的里面，甚至没有一个中心，因为中心是从本质中形成的？ 克：本质？ 阿：本质是思想；暂时性的这个本质。 普：意识是记录的东西。这是区分生命和死亡状态的唯一因素。 只要有记录，就没有死亡。 克：我们在猜测吗？看，让我们非常简单地开始。你什么时候真正有意识？ 普：当我醒着的时候，当我意识到的时候。 克：我很简单的开始。我什么时候有意识？ 普：我意识到了这个讨论。

K: Let us keep it simple. When am I conscious? Either through sensory reaction, through a sensory shock, a sensory resistance, a sensory danger, a conflict in which there is pain-pleasure. It is only in those moments that I say I am conscious. I am aware of that lamp, the design; I perceive that there is a reaction and I say it is ugly or beautiful. Is not that the basis of all this? I do not want to speculate. I ask myself "when am I conscious?" When I am challenged, when there is an impact, conflict, pain, pleasure, then I am conscious.

克：让我们保持简单。我什么时候有意识？ 要么通过感官反应，要么通过感官冲击，感受上的抵制，感受到的危险，其中有苦与乐的冲突。 只有在那些时刻，我才说我是有意识的。 我意识到那盏灯，那种设计；我感知到那是一种反应，然后我说：它是丑陋的或美丽的。 那难道不是这一切的基础吗？我不想去猜测。 我问我自己“我什么时候有意识？” 当我受到挑戰時，当出现了一种影響、衝突、痛苦、快樂，我就有了意識。

D: But there may be no focus at all. K: Wait Sir. I want to start here; otherwise we get lost in theory. This whole phenomenon is going on, whether there is a deliberate awareness or not, this thing is operating all the time. That is what we call consciousness. F: The response to impact. P: You mean there is no photographic consciousness. I see a dust-bin.... K: But you are seeing it. The mind is registering it. That is, the brain cells are receiving all these impacts.

德：但是，可能根本没有焦点。 克：等等，先生。我想从这里开始；否则我们会迷失在理论中。 这整个现象正在发生，无论是否是刻意的，这种事情一直在运作。 这就是我们所说的意识。 莫：对影响的回应。 普：你的意思是没有画面的意识。我看到一个垃圾桶…… 克：但是你在看它。頭腦正在記錄它。 也就是说，脑细胞正在接受所有这些影响。

F: And in that is there no classification as pain, pleasure? K: Impact as pleasure, pain, conflict, sorrow, conscious, or unconscious, is going on all the time and there may be an awareness of all that at one moment, and at other moments there may not be. But it is going on all the time. So what is the next question? P: This process itself is consciousness and the centre that observes is also part of consciousness.

莫：难道没有对痛苦、快乐的分类吗？ 克：快乐、痛苦、冲突、悲伤、有意或无意的影响一直在发生 可能在某些时刻意识到这一切，而在其他时刻却没有。 但它一直在进行。那么，下一个问题是什么？ 普：这个过程本身就是意识，那个观察的中心也是意识的一部分。

K: What is the next question? B: What is the nature of the unconscious? K: It is still the same. Only it is the deeper layer. B: Why are we unconscious of the deeper layer? K: Because superficially we are very active all the time. B: So the density of the superficial layer prevents our being conscious of the deeper layers. K: I am making noises on the surface. It is like swimming on the surface. So what is my next question? B: Is it possible to integrate the various layers? K: No.

克：下一个问题是什么？ 芭：无意识的本质是什么？ 克：还是一样。只不过它在更深的层次。 芭：为什么我们对更深的层次没有意识？ 克：因为，我们一直在表皮上很活跃。 芭：因此，表皮的密度阻止了我们对深层的意识。 克：我在表面上制造出噪音。就像在水面上游泳一样。那么，我的下一个问题是什么？ 芭：是否可以整合各层？ 克：不能。

P: What is the relationship of thought to consciousness? K: I do not understand this question because thought is consciousness. P: Is there anything else but thought? K: Why do you put that question? P: Because we started with the question that I observed you speak of a region where thought has a legitimate place and a region where thought has no legitimate place - and yet you say thought is consciousness.

普：思想与意识的关系是什么？ 克：我不明白这个问题，因为思想就是意识。 普：除了思想，还有别的吗？ 克：你为什么提出这个问题？ 普：因为我们从我观察到的问题开始， 你说过，在一个区域中，思想有合法的地位；还有一个区域，思想没有合法的地位 —— 然而，你说思想就是意识。

K: Slowly. Let us stop here. The first question was, is thought part of this whole thing? What is its relationship to consciousness? Consciousness is thought - pain, conflict, registration, memory, remembrance. When the superficial consciousness is making a lot of noise, you come and ask what is the relationship between thought and all that? Thought is all that. P: You have said something just now - thought is part of all that. Then what is the rest? A: All this is consciousness. Thought comes into operation when the "I" wants to localize. K: That is right.

克：慢一点。让我们就此打住。 第一个问题是，思想是整体的一部分吗？它与意识有什么关系？ 意識是思想 —— 痛苦、衝突、記錄、記憶、回憶。 当肤浅的意识发出很大的噪音， 你走过来问，思想和那一切的关系是什么？ 思想就是那一切。 普：你刚才说 —— 思想是那一切的一部分。那么，剩下的是什么？ 阿：这一切都是意识。当“我”想要进入时，思想就开始运作。 克：没错。

F: When the brain is cut off then there is no thought. K: Which is the memory squeezed, held and paralysed. All that we have described, memory, everything, is consciousness. Now thought comes into operation when I am interested in a part of this. The scientist is interested in the material phenomena, the psychologist in his area, because he has limited the field of investigation. Then thought comes as a systematizer. F. Is thought the non-self-consciousness? K: When "P" asks what is the relationship between thought and consciousness, I think that is a wrong question. P: Why?

莫：当大脑被切断时，就没有思想了。 克：这是记忆被挤出、拿掉，被瘫痪。我们所描述的，记忆，一切，都是意识。 现在，当我对其中的一部分感兴趣时，思想就开始运作。 科学家对物质现象感兴趣，心理学家对他所在的领域感兴趣， 因为，他限制了调查的领域。然后，思想作为统筹者而出来了。 莫：思想是非自我意识吗？ 克：当普普尔问思想和意识是什么关系时，我认为这是一个错误的问题。 普：为什么？

K: There is no relationship between the two because there are no two. Thought is not something separate from all this. P: Is thought part of it or is thought all? K: Go slow. I do not want to say something which is untrue. F: Thought is co-extensive with consciousness. Let us not sub-divide.

克：两者之间没有关系，因为不存在两者。思想不是与这一切分开的东西。 普：思想是其中的一部分，还是思想是全部？ 克：慢慢来。我不想说一些不真实的话。 莫：思想与意识是共同扩展的。我们不要细分。

K: "P" asks "F", a very simple question. What is the relationship between thought and all this? F: Which is the "other". She has no business to speak of the two as separate. P: I won't accept this so easily because in everything "K" says the "other is posited. Thought has a legitimate place in the field of technology and it has no legitimate place in the other field and if you were to perform an operation and wipe out thought, it is not enough. Therefore the "other" is posited.

克：普普尔问了莫里斯一个非常简单的问题: 思想和这一切之间有什么关系? 莫：那是‘另一个’。她无权将两者分开。 普：我不会那么容易接受这一点，因为在一切事物中，“K”都假设出‘另一个’。 思想在技术领域有合法的地位，在另一个领域没有合法的地位。 如果你要执行一个手术并消除思想，它是不够的。因此，“另一个”被假设出来。

A: What I am trying to say is, is there in consciousness space which is not covered by thought? P: Quite right. K: I am not at all sure. I do not say you are not right. So go on. A: I say there is space in consciousness which is not thought and that is part of the human heritage. It is there. K: I do not think in consciousness there is any space. P: I want to put another question to you. When I perceive you and listen to the whole thing operating, there is no movement of thought, but I am totally conscious. I cannot say - K: Why do you call that consciousness? Wait, go slow. "A" says there is space in consciousness. We have to answer that question. P: Whenever you make a statement like that, you immediately come to this that wherever there is space there is a boundary. A: I may be using the wrong word. K: You have used the right word. But we do not see that space cannot be contained in a frontier, in a boundary, in a circle.

阿：我想说的是，在意识的空间中，是否存在不被思想覆盖的空间？ 普：完全正确。 克：我完全不确定。我不是说你不对。所以，继续。 阿：我说，意识中存在着空间，它不是思想，那人类遗产的一部分。它就在那里。 克：我不认为意识中有任何空间。 普：我想问你另一个问题。 當我感知到你，聽到整個事情的運作時，沒有思想的動作，但我是完全有意識的。我不能说—— 克：你为什么称之为意识？等等，慢慢来。 “阿”说，意识中有空间。我们必须回答这个问题。 普：每當你這樣說時， 你马上就来到这一点：只要有空間，就有一個邊界。 阿：我可能用错了词。 克：你用的词是对的。 但是我们没有看到，空间是不能被包含在边界、界线和圆圈中。

A: It is not space, if it is held within a circle, a square, a rectangle. In one sense, of course, it is space. K: Where there is a border there is no space. D: According to the scientists, time and space are bound together. K: But when we say consciousness has space, then consciousness has time. Do not call that space. Space exists only when there is time. Time is limitation. Space in the sense in which we use the word does not exist in consciousness. That space is something else. Leave that for the moment. Now what is the next question?

阿：它不是空间，如果它被固定在一个圆圈、一个正方形、一个矩形内。 从某种意义上说，当然，它是空间。 克：有边界的地方就没有空间。 德：根据科学家的说法，时间和空间是联系在一起的。 克：但是，当我们说意识有空间时，意识就有时间。不要称它为空间。 只有当有时间时，空间才会存在。时间是受限的。 我们使用这个词的意义上的空间，在意识中是不存在的。那个空间是其它的东西。 暂时不说。现在下一个问题是什么？

P: If we can take it from this point, I ask what is the relationship of thought to consciousness. Is thought contained in consciousness? K: Do not use the word relationship. That means the two; thought means all that. Thought is consciousness. Do not put it in any other way. P: Yes. Thought is consciousness, listening is consciousness, learning is consciousness. If thought is consciousness, is thought not related to seeing as consciousness? K: Put the question this way. Is there a state of mind when there is no learning at all? You see the question? P: You have left us far behind now.

普：如果我们能从这一点出发，我问思想与意识的关系是什么。 思想包含在意识中吗？ 克：不要使用关系这个词。这意味着两个东西；思想意味着那一切。 思想就是意识。不要以任何其他方式表达。 普：是的。思想是意识，听是意识，学习是意识。 如果思想是意识，那么思想与作为意识的看无关吗？ 克：把这个问题这样表达。当根本没有学习的时候，有没有一种头脑的状态？你看到这个问题了吗？ 普：你现在已经把我们远远地抛在了后面。

F: There are fields in which we operate without consciousness. Most of our relationships are beyond the reach of consciousness. I operate unconsciously. K: I want to go slowly, please. Thought is consciousness, listening is consciousness and learning is consciousness. Listening, seeing, learning, hearing, is part of all this, and memorizing and reacting to that memory is part of all this. P: When any one of these is operating, there is no other. What you then say is understandable. Then there is no duality. Now we take the next step. When each of these operates, it is consciousness. K: And it is not a dualistic consciousness. P: Is it the part operating?

莫：在某些领域中，我们在无意识地运作。 我们大多数的关系都超出了意识的范围。我在无意识地操作。 克：我想走慢点，拜托了。思想是意识，听是意识，学习是意识。 听、看、学、听，属于这一切的一部分， 而记忆和对这种记忆做出的回想，都是这一切的一部分。 普：当其中任何一个正在运行时，没有其余的。 那么，你说的是可以理解的。那就没有二元性了。 现在我们采取下一步行动。当这些中的每一个运作时，它就是意识。 克：它不是一种二元性的意识。 普：它是局部的运作吗？

K: I would not use the word part. It is the focalizing of consciousness. It is not the whole of consciousness. Look, I say a few words in French or Italian; at that moment there is just that. P: What about the English? K: It is still there. When thought is operating in that specific field, there is no duality. When thought compares that particular operation to another then there is duality. Right? I say how marvellous that lamp is. It is finished. But when thought says I wish I had it in my room, then there is duality. See what has been found, when there is the simple functioning of thought without any motive, there is no duality.

克：我不会用局部这个词。 它是意识的焦点化。它不是意识的全部。 看，我用法语或意大利语说几句话；在那一刻，就是那样。 普：那么，英语呢？ 克：它仍然在那里。 当思想在那个特定领域运作时，就没有二元性。 当思想将那个特定的运作与另一个运作进行比较时，就有二元性。对吗？ 我说，那盏灯多么奇妙。它完成了。 但是，当思想说，我希望我把它放在我的房间里，就有了二元性。 看看发现了什么，当思想的简单运作没有任何动机时，就没有二元性。

P: This again is very difficult - thought is motive. K: No. What is thought? I have a memory of that sunset - I see that sunset. It is recorded at that moment, it is finished. But thought comes along and says.... P: I am saying thought is motive, not the registration, because thought is word, word is loaded, word is meaning. K: There is memory of that sunset, then thought says, I wish it would happen again. In that, motive operates. D: Yes Sir. When you look at that sunset, motive is irrelevant.

普：这又是非常困难的 —— 思想是动机。 克：不是。什么是思想？我记得那场日落 —— 我看到了那日落。 在那一刻，它被记录下来，它完成了。但是思想随之而来，说…… 普：我说思想是动机，不是记录，因为思想是词，词是被加载的，词是有意义的。 克：有关于那个日落的记忆，然后思想说，我希望它能再次发生。 在那里，动机在运作。 德：是的，先生。当你看到那日落时，动机是无关的。

P: Sunset is an impersonal thing, let us not take that. I am jealous. There is a movement of jealousy as thought. You see Krishnaji, this is in some subtle way connected with the problem of containing - space - time - K: "P", you just now said jealousy. Jealousy is the factor of duality - that is, my wife looks at another man, and I feel jealous because I possess her, she is mine. But if I observe, if I am aware that she is not mine from the beginning, then the factor of jealousy does not enter. She is a free human being as I am a free human being. I allow her freedom.

普：日落是一件非私人的东西，让我们不要用那。 我嫉妒。有一股嫉妒的运动。 你看，克里希那吉，这在某种隐秘的程度上，包含了 —— 空间 —— 时间 —— 这个问题。 克：普普尔，你刚才说嫉妒。嫉妒是二元性的因素 —— 也就是说，我的妻子看着另一个男人，我感到嫉妒，因为我占有她，她是我的。 但是，如果我观察，如果我从一开始就觉察到她不是我的，那么嫉妒的因素就不会进入。 她是一个自由的人，就像我一样自由。我允许她的自由。

P: I understand that. But we are talking about the structure of thought. Thought arises in consciousness. In itself there is no duality. K: There is duality only when there is the operation of motive, measurement, comparison. In the observation of a lovely sunset, in seeing the light, the shadow, there is no duality. The word "beautiful" may be dualistic in terms of the ugly, but I am using the word without comparison. The moment I say I wish I had it again, begins the dualistic process. That is all.

普：我理解那。但我们谈论的是思想的这种结构。 思想在意识中产生。本身没有二元性。 克：只有出现了动机、测量、比较的运作时，才有二元性。 在观察美丽的日落时，在看到光、影时，没有二元性。 “美丽”这个词，对于丑陋来说，可能是二元论的，但我使用这个词的时候，没有去比较。 当我说，我希望我再次拥有它的那一刻，开始了二元论的过程。仅此而已。

P: We have somehow moved away. K: I will come back, which is, consciousness is perception, hearing, seeing, listening, learning and the memory of all that and the responding according to that memory. All that is consciousness, whether or not focalized. In that consciousness is time; time which creates space because it is enclosed. Let us stop there. In that there is duality, non-duality, the conflicts - I must, I must not - the whole of that field is consciousness. All that is consciousness. And in that there is no space at all because it has boundaries, frontiers, which are limitations.

普：我们有点离题了。 克：我会回来的，那就是， 意识是感知、听见、看到、倾听、学习和所有这些记忆，以及根据该记忆而做出的反应。 所有这一切都是意识，无论是否焦点化。 在那意识中，就是在时间中；时间创造出空间，因为它是封闭的。让我们就此打住。 在这里有二元性，非二元性，衝突 —— 我必須，我不能 —— 这整个领域就是意識。 这一切都是意识。 在这一点上，根本没有空间，因为它有界线，边界，也就是限制。

A: There is another factor which I would like to have included. There are the perceptions of various peoples of the world - of the African Continent, of the Latin American Continent; there is some kind of movement constantly going on; there are the findings of the physicists, the biologists - the perceptions and experiences of the world are syphoning into my consciousness. How can we ignore all that? If we only take the "I" and see the source of it, it is not enough: What is this process by which that thing is syphoning into me? The movement of the "I" as thought is something that is constantly being fed and renewed by that. Unless I see this process, I do not understand.

阿：这里还有一个因素，我想把它包括在内。 这世界上，有各国人民的感知 —— 非洲大陆、拉丁美洲大陆， 有一种不断进行的运动； 物理学家，生物学家的发现 —— 这些感知和这个世界的体验，正进入我的意识。 我们怎么能忽视这一切呢？如果我们只是捉住这个“我”来看它的源头，那是不够的： 那个吸进我体内的东西的过程是什么？ 作为思想活动的“我”，不断被喂食和更新。 除非我看到这个过程，否则我就不理解。

K: We said, Sir, the whole of this field of consciousness is the movement of contraction and expansion, a movement of information, knowledge, registration of knowledge, motivation, change, the political theme, what is going on in the Middle East, all that is happening in the environment, is part of me: I am the environment and the environment is the me. In that whole field there is the movement of the me. I like the Arabs and I do not like the Jews - within this consciousness, this comes up - A: I question that. I say when I see all that, I am not even taking sides because there are the African tribes liberated and then caught up in militarism and all that. K: See what happens. Colonialism, freedom from colonialism, the tribe, then the identification with the tribe as the me who belongs to the tribe.

克：我们说过，先生，整个意识领域是收缩和扩张的运动， 一个包含了信息、知识、知识的记录、动机、改变、政治主题、中东正在发生的事情、环境中发生的一切的运动，都是我的一部分： 我就是这个环境，这个环境就是我。在整个领域里，就是这位“我”的运动。 我喜欢阿拉伯人，我不喜欢犹太人 —— 在这个意识中，这位（‘我’）出现了 —— 阿：我对此表示质疑。我说，当我看到这一切时，我甚至没有站在任何一边， 因为，有些非洲部落被解放了，然后陷入了军国主义等等。 克：看看在发生什么。殖民主义，摆脱殖民主义的自由，部落， 接着，认同于这个部落，也就是这位我，并从属于这个部落。

A: In this wide canvas we see thought is syphoning into this focus which we call consciousness. K: All that is consciousness. Consciousness creates the mischief by saying, "I like", "I do not like". I see that, I am a witness to this "I like" and "I do not like" also, because that is part of this movement over which I have no control at all. A: I would say that may be so. But that is not the problem. The problem is the identification which gives this weightage to the "I like" and "I don't like", that it builds around it. K: Here I am born in India, with all the environment, all the superstitions, the riches and poverty, the sky, the hills, the economic, the social, the whole of that is me.

阿：在这幅广阔的画卷上，我们看到思想正在吮吸这些，并纳入我们称之为意识的焦点中。 克：那一切就是意识。意识通过说“我喜欢”、“我不喜欢”来制造灾难。 我看到那，对于这些“我喜欢”、“我不喜欢”来说，我是一个目击者， 因为那些是我根本无法控制的运动的一部分。 阿：我会说，可能是那样。但这不是问题所在。 问题在于这种认同，它赋予了“我喜欢“和”我不喜欢“，围绕着那，它被建立起来了。 克：我出生在印度，带着所有的环境、所有的迷信、贫富、天空、山丘、经济、社会，整个就是我。

A: Something more. K: Include the more. A: The more is the entire historical and the pre-historical past. If you include all that, then choice disappears. K: Wait, Sir, I am all that, the past and the present and the projected future; I am born in India with all the culture of 50 years. That is all my point. That is what I call consciousness. A: It is wider; it includes America, the whole world - K: But choice arises when you say you are a Hindu and I am a Muslim; when there is focalization through identification, there is then choice.

阿：还有更多。 克：包括更多。 阿：更多是指整个历史和史前的过去。如果你包括所有这些，那么选择就会消失。 克：等等，先生，我就是过去、现在和预测出的未来； 我出生在印度，拥有50年的所有文化。这就是我的全部观点。这就是我所说的意识。 阿：它更宽；它包括美国、整个世界 —— 克：但是，当你说你是印度教徒而我是穆斯林时，就会产生选择； 当通过认同进行聚焦时，就有选择。

P: Let us come back to what we were saying. All this is consciousness and the other is also a fact that when thought operates, thought is consciousness, listening, seeing is consciousness, and I ask the question "what is the relation between thought and consciousness?" K: It is a wrong question. P: All right. We say consciousness is thought, seeing is consciousness, listening is consciousness, thought is consciousness. K: All the heritage which "A" brought in is also consciousness, past, ancient, present and all that.

普：让我们回到我们所说的。 这一切都是意识，另一个也是一个事实， 当思想运作时，思想是意识，听，看是意识， 我问一个问题“思想和意识之间的关系是什么？” 克：它是一个错误的问题。 普：好的。我们说意识是思想，看是意识，听是意识，思想是意识。 克：阿克尤特引入的所有遗产也是意识，过去，古代，现在等等。

P: You have been stating that it is legitimate for thought to operate in fields where knowledge is necessary and when it operates in other fields then it brings sorrow, pain, duality. The question is: Does the other state which you are talking about, is it also consciousness? K: Let us examine that. Stick to that question. What do you say? P: I say it is consciousness because seeing is consciousness.

普：你一直说，在需要知识的领域内，思想的运作是合理的。 当它在其他领域运作时，它会带来悲伤、痛苦和二元性。 问题是: 你说的另一种状态，是否也是意识？ 克：让我们来研究一下。坚持这个问题。你说什么？ 普：我说它是意识，因为看就是意识。

K: Seeing that light is consciousness. P: That is the first question. K: Stick to that question for the moment. Thought has a legitimate field of operation and if it impinges into other fields then it brings pain, suffering. That which operates in this area, is it still consciousness - consciousness as we know it with all the things we have put into it? The other is not.

克：看到光就是意识。 普：那是第一个问题。 克：暂时抓住这个问题。 思想有一个合法的运作领域，如果它影响到其他领域，那么它就会带来痛苦和苦难。 在这个领域运作的，它还是意识吗 —— 我们所知道的意识以及我们放入其中的所有东西？ 另一个不是。

P: The other is not what? K: It is not thought. P: But is it consciousness? I will open it out a little more. The sensory perceptions operate. Seeing, listening operates, therefore why do you say it is not consciousness? K: I am saying consciousness in the sense that there is no conflict.

普：另一个不是什么？ 克：它不是思想。 普：但它是意识吗？我会再打开一点。 感官知觉在运作。看，听，在起作用，因此，你为什么说它不是意识？ 克：我说，在那个意义上说，意思是没有冲突的。

P: There is no conflict in consciousness. There is only conflict when consciousness operates as thought in the field where it has no legitimate place. Why should there be conflict in consciousness when thought is not operating? K: There is no conflict at all there. Let us go slowly. P: Then what is it that operates there? K: Is intelligence consciousness? Intelligence is not consciousness.

普：意识中没有冲突。 只有当作为思想的意识在它没有合法的地位的领域内运作时，才有冲突。 当思想不运作时，为什么意识中有冲突？ 克：那里完全没有冲突。让我们慢一点。 普：那么，那里的运作是什么？ 克：智慧是意识吗？智慧不是意识。

D: The language of intelligence must be different from the language of thought. K: Intelligence has no language, but it can use language. The moment it has language it is back again in the field. That intelligence having no language is not personal. It is not mine or yours. P: It may not be personal but is it focalized? K: No, it appears to focalize. P: When it moves, does it focalize? K: Of course, it must, but it is never in focalization. P: It is never held? K: It is like holding the sea in the fist: it is part of the sea, but it is not the sea.

德：智慧的语言一定不同于思想的语言。 克：智慧没有语言，但它可以使用语言。当它有语言的那一刻，它又回到了这个领域内。 没有语言的智慧不是个人的。它不是我的或你的。 普：它可能不是个人的，但它是焦点化的吗？ 克：不，它似乎在聚焦。 普：当它移动时，它会聚焦吗？ 克：当然，必须如此，但它从来都不焦点化的。 普：从来没有被抓住？ 克：这就像用拳头握住大海：它是大海的一部分，它却不是大海。