P: Krishnaji, at one level, your teaching is very materialistic because it refuses to accept anything which does not have a referent. It is based on "what is". You have even gone so far as to say that consciousness is the brain cells and that nothing else exists. And that thought is matter, and nothing else exists. Now in terms of this, what is your attitude to God?
普：克里希那吉，在某种程度上，你的教诲是非常唯物主义的 因为它拒绝接受任何没有参照物的东西。它基于“什么是”。 你甚至說意識是腦細胞，沒有別的東西存在。 你说，思想是物质，而没有其余的。 现在，就这一点而言，你对上帝的态度是什么？
K: I do not know what you mean by materialistic and God? P: You have said, thought is matter, the brain cells themselves are consciousness. Now these are material things, measurable, and in that sense yours would be part of a materialistic position, in the tradition of the"Lokayatas". In terms of your teaching what place has God? Is God matter?
克：你说的唯物主义和上帝是什么意思？我不知道。 普：你说过，思想是物质，脑细胞本身就是意识。 现在，这些都是物质性的东西，是可衡量的， 从这个意义上说，你所说的，是唯物主义立场的一部分，在“Lokayatas”的传统中。 就你的教诲而言，上帝有什么地位？上帝是物质吗？
K: Do you understand clearly the word "material"? P: Material is that which is measurable. F: There is no such thing as the material, "P". P: Brain is matter. F: No, it is energy. Everything is energy but that energy is not observable. You can only see the effects of energy which you call matter. The effects of energy appear as matter. D: When she says matter, she probably means energy. Energy and matter are convertible, but still measurable.
克：你把‘物质’这个词理解清楚了吗？ 普：物质是可测量的。 莫：没有物质这样的东西，普普尔。 普：大脑就是物质。 莫：不，是能量。一切都是能量，但能量是不可观察的。 你只能看到你称之为‘物质’的能量的影响。能量的影响表现为物质。 德：当她说物质时，她可能指的是能量。 能量和物质是可以转换的，但仍然可以测量。
K: That is, you are saying matter is energy and energy is matter. You cannot divide them to say this is pure energy and this is pure matter. D: The material is the expression or appearance of energy. F: What we call matter is nothing but energy. It is only energy as apprehended by the senses of perception. There is no such thing as matter. It is only a way of talking. D: Energy is E equal to Mc2.
克：也就是说，你说物质就是能量，能量就是物质。 你不能把它们分开，说这是纯粹的能量，这是纯粹的物质。 德：物质是能量的表现或外观。 莫：我们所说的物质只不过是能量。它只是被感官捕获并感知到的能量。 没有物质这样的东西。这只是一种表述方式。 德：E=Mc2。 （爱因斯坦质能方程）
P: You see Krishnaji, if we go into any aspect of your teaching, it is based on that which is observable. The instruments of hearing, of seeing, are within the field of sensory apprehension. Even though you may talk of not naming, that which is observable is through the instruments of seeing, listening. The instruments of the senses are the only instruments we have with which to observe. K: We know sensory seeing, sensory hearing, sensory touching and the intellect which is part of the whole structure. Now what is the question? P: In that sense, the teaching is materialistic as opposed to the metaphysical. Your position is a materialistic position.
普：你看，克里希那吉，如果我们进入你教诲的任何一个方面，它都是基于可观察的。 听觉、视觉的工具都在感官捕获的领域之内。 即使你可能说‘别命名’，但可观察的是通过看、听的工具。 感官工具是我们唯一可以用来观察的工具。 克：我们知道感官上的视觉、听觉、触觉和智力， 智力也是整个结构的一部分。现在，问题是什么？ 普：从这个意义上说，这种教诲是唯物主义的，而不是形而上学的。你的立场是唯物主义的立场。
F: If you want to stick to facts, the only instrument we have is the brain. Now, is the brain everything or is it an instrument in the hands of somebody else? If you say there is only brain, it will be a materialistic position. If you say the instrument is materialistic then the teaching is not materialistic. P: The Tantrik position and the ancient alchemist position are in one sense similar to Krishnaji's position. Everything has to be observed. There is nothing that has to be accepted that has not been seen with the eyes of the seer. Seeing this I now ask, "what is your view of God". I feel it is a very legitimate question.
莫：如果你想坚持事实，我们唯一的工具就是大脑。 现在，大脑是一切还是某个人手中的工具？ 如果你说只有大脑，那将是一种唯物主义的立场。 如果你说这个工具是唯物主义的，那么，教诲就不是唯物主义的。 普：在某种意义上，密宗的立场和古代炼金术士的立场与克里希那吉的立场是相似的。 一切都必须被观察 没有什么是必须接受的，除非被双眼看见。 看到这一点，我现在问，“你对上帝的看法是什么”。我觉得这是一个非常合理的问题。
F: Can you explain what God is? K: What do you mean by God? We have explained energy and matter and now you ask what we mean by God? I never use the word "God" to indicate something which is not God. What thought has invented is not God. If it is invented by thought, it is still within the field of time, within the field of the material.
莫：你能解释上帝是什么吗？ 克：你说的上帝是指什么意思？ 我们已经解释了能量和物质，现在你问：我们所说的上帝是什么意思？ 我从不使用“上帝”这个词来表示不是上帝的东西。思想发明的不是上帝。 如果它是通过思想发明的，它仍然在时间的领域内，在物质的领域内。
P: Thought says I cannot go further. K: But it may invent God because it cannot go further. Thought knows its limitations. Therefore, knowing its limitations, it tries to invent the limitless which it calls God. That is the position. P: When thought sees its limitations, it is still aware of an existence beyond itself. K: Thought has invented it. It can only go beyond when thought comes to an end.
普：思想说我不能再进一步了。 克：但它可能会发明上帝，因为它不能走得更远。思想知道它的局限性。 因此，知道自己的局限性，它试图去发明那无限的东西，被称之为‘上帝’。那就是这种立场。 普：当思想看到它的局限性时，它依然意识到一种超越它自身的存在。 克：思想发明了它。只有当思想走到尽头之时，它才能超越。
P: Seeing the limitations of thought is not the knowing of thought. K: So we must go into the knowing of thought and not God. D: When thought sees its own limitation, it practically debunks it. K: When you say limitation, does thought realize it is limited or does the thinker realize that thought is limited? You see the point, or does the thinker who is the product of thought realize it? P: Why do you draw the distinction?
普：看到思想的局限性不是对思想的认识。 克：所以，我们必须认识思想，而不是上帝。 德：当思想看到自己的限制时，它实际上揭穿了它。 克：当你说限制时，是思想意识到它是受限的，还是思想者意识到思想是受限的？ 是你看这一点，还是作为思想产物的思想者意识到了它？ 普：你为什么要区分？
K: Thought has created the thinker. If thought did not exist, there would be no thinker. Does the thinker, observing the limitations, say "I am limited" or does thought itself realize its limitations which are two different positions. Let us be clear in all this. We are exploring. There are the two - the thought and thinker. The thinker, observing thought, sees through reasoning which is the material, which is energy, that energy is limited. In the realm of thought, the thinker thinks this. D: When the thinker says thought is limited, both the thought and the thinker become question-marks.
克：思想造就了思想者。如果思想不存在，就不会有思想者。 是这位思想者在观察这个限制，并说“我是受限的”； 还是思想本身意识到了它的限制？这是两种不同的立场。 让我们明确这一切。 我们正在探索。有两个 —— 思想和思想者。 思想者观察思想，通过推理看到了什么是物质，也就是能量，而能量是受限的。 在思想的领域，思想者是这么认为的。 德：当思想者说思想是受限的，思想和思想者都变成了问号。
K: No, not yet. Thought is memory, thought is the response of knowledge. Thought has brought about this thing called the thinker. The thinker then becomes separate from thought; at least it thinks it is separate from thought. The thinker, looking at reasoning, at the intellect, at the capacity to rationalize, sees that it is very very limited. Therefore, the thinker condemns reason; the thinker says thought is very limited, which is condemnation. Then he says there must be something more than thought, something beyond this limited field. That is what we are doing. We are taking things as they are. Does the thinker think that thought is limited or does thought itself realize it is limited? I do not know if you see the difference.
克：不，还没有。 思想是记忆，思想是知识的回应。思想带来了这个叫做思想者的东西。 然后，思想者与思想分离；至少，它认为它是与思想分开的。 这位思想者用推理，用智力、用理性去检察，发现它是非常非常受限的。 因此，思想者谴责理性；思想者说思想是非常受限的，也就是谴责。 然后他说，一定有超越思想的东西，超越这个受限领域的东西。 那就是我们正在做的事情。我们如实地看待它们。 思想者认为思想是受限的，还是思想本身意识到它是受限的？ 我不知道你是否看到了这种区别。
F: Thought is prior to the thinker. P: Thought can end. Thought can never feel it is limited. Thought can end - through what reason, do not ask. There is no real reason but thought can end. But how does thought feel it is limited? K: That is my point. Does the thinker see he is limited or does thought say, I cannot go any further? You see the point? F: Why do you separate the thinker from the thought? There are many thoughts out of which the thinker is also another thought. The thinker is the guide, helper, censor; he is the most dominant thing.
莫：思想先于思想者。 普：思想能够结束。思想永远不能感觉到它是受限的。 思想能够结束 —— 通过什么原因，不要问。 没有真正的理由，但思想能够结束。但是，思想如何感觉它是受限的？ 克：那就是我所指出的。是思想者看到他是受限的，还是思想说，我不能再走出一步吗？ 你看到这一点了吗？ 莫：你为什么要把思想者和思想分开？有许多思想，思想者也是另一种思想。 思想者是向导、帮助者、审查者；他是最有支配力的东西。
K: Thought has gone through all this and established a centre from which there is the observer, and the observer looking at thought says thought is limited. D: In fact, it can only say "I do not know". K: It does not say that. You are introducing a non-observable fact. First of all, thought is the response of knowledge, thought has not yet realized that it is very limited. What it has done in order to have security, is to put together various thoughts which have become the observer, the thinker, the experiencer. Then we are asking the question: Does the thinker realize that it is limited, or thought itself realizes it is limited? The two are entirely different.
克：思想经历了这一切 并建立了一个中心，从中出现了一个观察者，这位观察者在观察思想的时候，说思想是受限的。 德：其实，它只能说“我不知道”。 克：它没有这么说。您正在引入一个不可观察的事实。 首先，思想是知识的回应，思想还没有意识到它是非常受限的。 为了获得安全感，它所做的就是把各种思想放在一起，使其成为这位观察者、思想者、体验者。 然后，我们问一个问题： 是思想者意识到它是受限的，还是思想本身意识到它是受限的？ 这两种情况是完全不同的。
F: We know only a state of thinker thinking thought. K: That is all we know. Therefore, the thinker invariably says we must go beyond thought; therefore it questions: Can one kill the mind? Does God exist? F: You are giving existence to the thinker instead of thought.
莫：我们只知道思想者在思考的状态。 克：那就是我们所知道的。因此，思想者总是说‘我们必须超越思想’; 因此，它质疑：一个人能杀死这颗头脑吗？上帝存在吗？ 莫：你在用思想者取代思想的存在。
K: The thinker is modifying, adding. The thinker is not a permanent entity as thought is not permanent, but the thinker is adjusting, modifying. This is important. I may be mistaken. It is important to find out whether the thinker sees it is limited or whether thought as idea - idea being organized thought - thinks it is limited.
克：思想者在修改，在添加。 思想者不是一个永恒的实体，因为思想不是永恒的，但思想者在调整、修改。 这很重要。我可能弄错了。 重要的是要找出：这位思想者是否看见它是受限的 或者说，作为观念的思想 —— 观念是组织化的思想 —— 是否认为它是受限的。
Now, who says it? If the thinker says it is limited, then the thinker says there must be something more. Then the thinker says there must be God, there must be something beyond thinking. Right? If thought itself realizes it cannot go beyond its own tether, beyond its own rooted brain cells, the brain cells as the material, as the root of thinking; if thought realizes that, then what takes place?
现在，是谁在说？如果思想者说它是受限的，那么思想者说一定还有更多的东西。 然后，思想者说必定有上帝，必定有某种超越思考的东西。对吗？ 如果思想本身意识到它不能超越它自己的束缚， 超越自身根深蒂固的脑细胞，脑细胞作为物质，是思考的根源； 如果思想意识到了那一点，那么，在发生什么？
P: You see, Sir, that is the whole point. If you were to leave your teaching at this point, I would understand. If you were to leave it at this point, that thought itself sees this, the brain cells themselves see it and leave it, then there is a total consistency and logic; but you are always moving, going beyond this and you cannot use any words. Thereafter call it what you like, but the feeling of God is introduced. K: I won't accept the word "God". P: You take us by reason, by logic to a point. You do not leave it there. K: Of course not.
普：先生，你看，那就是整个重点。 如果你把你的教诲留在这一点上，我就会理解。 如果你留在这一点上，那就是，思想本身看到了这，脑细胞自己看到它并离开它， 那么，就有一个完全的一致性和逻辑； 但是你总是在移动，去超越这，你却无法使用任何语言。 此后，随心所欲地称呼它，但是，上帝的这种感觉被引入了。 克：我不会接受“上帝”这个词。 普：你把我们用理性，用逻辑带到了一个点。你没有把它留在那里。 克：当然没有。
P: That is the real paradox. K: I refuse to accept it as a paradox. F: The material of something and the meaning cannot be interchanged. "P" is mixing up the two. K: It is fairly simple what she says: The thinker and the thought - we can see the whole logic of that, of what you say, but you do not leave it there. You push it further. P: Into an abstraction. I say that thought and the thinker being essentially one, man has separated them for his own safety, permanency, security. We are asking the question whether the thinker thinks thought is limited and therefore posits something beyond, because he must have security; or does thought say that whatever movement however subtle, however obvious, reasonable, thought is still limited. But K does not say that. K goes further into abstractions.
普：那才是真正的悖论。 克：我拒绝接受它是一个悖论。 莫：事物的物质和意义是不能互换的。普普尔将两者混为一谈。 克：她说的很简单：思想者和思想 —— 我们可以看到你说的整个逻辑，但你没有把它留在那里。你把它推得更远。 普：进入一种抽象。 我说思想和思想者本质上是一体的， 人之所以将它们分开，是为了自己的安全、持久和保险。 我们问，思想者是否认为思想是受限的，因此提出了超越的东西， 因为他必须安全； 或者思想是否说，无论活动有多么微妙，多么明显和合理，思想仍然是受限的。 但K没有这么说。K进一步深入到抽象。
K: I realize that thought and the thinker are very very limited and I do not stop there. To do so would be a purely materialistic philosophy. That is what many intellectuals in the east and west have come to. But they are always tethered, and being tethered, they expand but remain tied to a pole which is their experience, their belief.
克：我意识到思想和思想者非常受限，但我没有停留在那里。 这样做，就是纯粹唯物主义的哲学。那是东方和西方的许多智者都达到的一点。 但是他们总是被束缚， 由于这种束缚，不管他们如何扩展，都始终被绑在那一点上，也就是他们的经验，他们的信仰。
Now, if I can answer the question - does thought itself realize the limitations of itself, then what takes place? Knowing thought is energy, thought is memory, thought is the past, thought is time, suffering, then what takes place? It realizes that any movement of thought is consciousness, is the content of consciousness, and without the content there is no consciousness. Now what takes place? Is that observable or not? I do not invent God.
现在，如果我能回答这个问题 —— 思想本身是否意识到自己的局限性，那么，在发生什么？ 认识到思想是能量，思想是记忆，思想是过去，思想是时间、苦难，那么，在发生什么？ 它意识到任何思想运动都是意识，是意识中的内容，没有内容就没有意识。 在发生什么？那是否是可观察的？我没有发明上帝。
P: I do not say that. I never said you invent God. I say up to this point your position is material, rational, logical; suddenly you introduce another element. K: No. Look at it. Thought itself realizes - not the thinker who thinks it cannot and therefore posits super-consciousness, a higher self, God or whatever it will - but thought itself realizes that any movement it makes is within the field of time. Then what happens? Then thought becomes completely silent - this is an observable, testable fact. The silence is not the result of discipline. Then what happens?
普：我没有那么说。我从来没有说过你发明了上帝。 我说，到目前为止，你的立场是物质的、理性的、合乎逻辑的； 突然，你引入了另一个元素。 克：不，你看。思想本身意识到 —— 不是因为思想者无能，所以假定了一个超级意识，一个更高的自我、上帝或者别的任何东西 —— 而是思想自己意识到它所做的任何运动都在时间的领域。 那么，在发生什么？那么，思想变得完全安静 —— 这是一个可观察、可测试的事实。 这种安静不是纪律的结果。那么，在发生什么？
P: Sir, let me ask you a question. In that state the registering of all noise goes on, the machine which registers, what is that thing? K: The brain. P: The brain is the material. So this registering goes on. K: It goes on all the time, whether I am conscious or unconscious. P: You may not name it but the sense of existence goes on. K: No, you are using the word "existence" but recording goes on. I want to make the difference here. P: Let us not move away. It is not that all existence is wiped out. It would be if thought ends. K: On the contrary. P: Existence; the sense of existence "is".
普：先生，让我问你一个问题。 在那种状态下，所有的对噪音的记录都在继续，这台记录的机器，是什么东西？ 克：这颗大脑。 普：大脑是物质。所以这个记录在继续。 克：它一直在继续，无论我是有意识的，还是无意识的。 普：你可能没有说出它的名字，但存在感还在继续。 克：不，你在用“存在”这个词，而是记录还在继续。我想这是有区别的。 普：让我们不要离开。并不是说所有的存在都被消灭了。如果思想结束了，那才会。 克：恰恰相反。 普：存在；存在感就是“是”。
K: Life goes on but without the "me" as the observer. Life goes on, the registration goes on, memory goes on, but the "me" which thought has brought about, which is the content of consciousness, that "me" disappears; obviously because that "me" is the limited. Therefore thought as the "me" says "I am limited". It does not mean the body does not go on, but the centre, which is the activity as the self, as the "me", is not. Again that is logical because thought says I am limited. I will not create the "me" which is further limitation. It realizes it and it drops away.
克：生命在继续，但没有这位作为观察者的“我”。 生命在继续，记录在继续，记忆在继续， 但思想所带来的，也就是意识中的内容所带来的这个“我”，那位“我”消失了; 显然，因为那个“我”是受限的。因此，作为思想的‘我’说：“我是受限的”。 它并不意味着身体没有继续，而是这个中心，也就是自我的活动，这位“我”，没了。 这也是合乎逻辑的，因为思想说我是受限的。 我不会创造这位‘我’，这位‘我’是进一步的局限。它意识到了它，它就丢弃了。
P: Having said that thought creating the "me" is the limitation...... K: Thought creating the "me" and the "me" realizing it is limited and therefore the "me" is not. F: When this happens, why should I name what is going on as thought at all? K: I am not naming anything. I realize that thought is the response of the past. The "me" is made up of various additions of thought which have created the "me", which is the past. The "me" is the past. The "me" projects the future. Now the whole phenomenon is a very small affair. That is all. Now what is the next question?
普：话虽如此，创造“我”的思想是这种局限...... 克：思想创造出这位‘我’，这位‘我’意识到它是受限的，因此‘我’消失了。 莫：当这种情况发生时，我为什么要把那正在发生的命名为思想呢？ 克：我没有命名任何东西。我意识到思想是过去的回应。 “我”是由各种思想的组装而形成的，这些思想创造出“我”，也就是这个过去。 “我”是这个过去。“我”投射出这个未来。 现在，这整个现象，是一件非常小的事情。仅此而已。 现在，下一个问题是什么？
F: What has the state of this hopelessness to do with God? K: It is not a state of hopelessness. On the contrary, you have introduced the quality of hopelessness because thought has said it cannot go beyond itself and therefore it is in despair. Thought realizes that whatever movement it makes it is still within the field of time, whether it calls it despair, fulfilment, pleasure, fear. F: So the realization of the limitations is a state of despair. K: No, you are introducing despair. I am only saying despair is part of thought. Hope is part of thought and that thought says any movement I make, whether it is despair, pleasure, fear, attachment, detachment, is a movement of thought. When thought realizes all this is a movement of itself in different forms, it stops. Now let us proceed further.
莫：这种绝望的状态与上帝有什么关系？ 克：它不是绝望的状态。相反，你引入了绝望的品质 因为思想说它不能超越自己，因此它处于绝望之中。 思想意识到，无论它做什么运动，它仍然在时间的领域内，无论它称之为绝望、满足、快乐还是恐惧。 莫：所以意识到局限性是一种绝望的状态。 克：不，你在引入绝望。 我只是说，绝望是思想的一部分。希望是思想的一部分，而那个思想说 我所做的任何运动，无论是绝望、快乐、恐惧、依恋、超脱，都属于思想运动。 当思想意识到这一切都属于它自己的运动，以不同的形式而呈现，那么，它停下了。 现在，让我们继续。
P: I want to ask you a question. You said existence goes on without the "me". What or who proceeds further? K: We have moved away from the word "God". P: If my using the word "God" is very much within the field of thought, I have put it aside. Now I am moving with that. Therefore I am saying if thought as the "me" has ended, what is the instrument of investigation?
普：我想问你一个问题。 你说没有‘我’，存在继续。是什么，或者，是谁在继续？ 克：我们已经远离了“上帝”这个词。 普：如果我在思想领域之内使用“上帝”这个词，那么，我把它放在一边。 现在，我正在移动。 因此，我说，如果作为“我”的思想已经结束，那么，这个调查的工具是什么？
K: We have come to a point where there is no movement of thought. Investigating into itself so profoundly as we are doing now, so completely, so logically, thought has ended. It is now asking what is the new factor that comes into being which is going to investigate or what is the new instrument of investigation. What is the instrument? It is not the old instrument. Right? The intellect, its sharpness of thought, the quality of thought, the objectivity, thought that has created tremendous confusion; all that has been denied.
克：我们已经到了没有思想运动的点。 我们现在，如此深刻地调查自己，如此地彻底，如此地合乎逻辑，思想已经结束了。 现在问，将要去调查的新的因素是什么， 或者说，新的调查工具是什么。 工具是什么？它不是旧工具。对吗？ 作为思想的智力，它的敏锐，思想的品质，这种客观性，造成了巨大混乱的思想； 所有这些都被否认了。
P: Thought is word and meaning. If in consciousness, there is movement where there is no word and meaning, there is something else operating. What is this? K: We have said thought is the past, thought is the word, thought is meaning, thought is the result of suffering. And thought says I have tried to investigate and my investigation has led me to see my own limitations. Now what is the next question? What is investigation then? If you see clearly the limitations, then what is happening? P: Only the seeing. K: No, seeing is visual and the sensory seeing depends on the word, the meaning.
普：思想是言词和意义。 如果在意识中，存在这种运动，里面没有词和意义，而是其他东西在运作。这是什么？ 克：我们说过，思想是过去，思想是言词，思想是意义，思想是痛苦的结果。 思想说，我试图调查，我的调查使我看到了自己的局限性。 现在，下一个问题是什么？ 那么，什么是调查？如果您清楚地看到这种限制，那么，在发生什么？ 普：只有这种看。 克：不，看是视觉的，感官的视觉取决于这个词，这种意义。
P: After what we have said, there is only seeing which operates. K: I want to be clear. The seeing with sensory perception, you say, is there. We have gone beyond that. P: When you use the word seeing, is it a state where all the instruments are functioning? K: Absolutely. P: If there is one instrument functioning at a time, then it is tethered to thought. When there is seeing and no listening, it is tethered to thought. But when all the sensory instruments are functioning, then there is nothing to be tethered to. That is the only thing one can know. That is existence. Otherwise there would be death.
普：在我们说了之后，在操作的，只有看。 克：我想说清楚。你说，感官上的视觉在运转。我们已经超越了那。 普：当你使用“看”这个词时，是所有的工具都在运作的一种状态吗？ 克：当然。 普：如果一次只有一个工具在起作用，那么它就受到思想的束缚。 当有看而没有听时，它就被思想所束缚。 但是，当所有的感官工具都在运作时，那么，就没有什么被束缚了。 那是一个人唯一能知道的事情。那就是存在。否则就会死。
K: We agree, then what is the next question? What is perception then? What is investigation there? What is there to investigate? What is there to explore? Right? What have you to say; you have all become silent? P: When thought has come to an end there is nothing more to investigate. K: When thought comes to an end, then what more is there to investigate? Then who is the investigator? And what is the result of investigation? Now which is it? What is there to investigate, or who is the instrument or what is the instrument that investigates? P: One has always regarded investigation as moving towards a point. K: Is it a forward movement? P: We are trying to investigate God, truth, but as thought has ended, there is no point towards which there can be movement.
克：我们同意，那么下一个问题是什么？什么是感知？ 那里，调查是什么？有什么要调查的？在那里探索什么？对吗？ 你有什么要说的；你们都安静了？ 普：当思想结束的时候，就没有什么可调查的了。 克：当思想结束的时候，还有什么需要调查？ 那么调查者是谁？调查结果是什么？现在，到底是哪一个呢？ 要调查的是什么，或者这个工具是谁，或者调查的工具是什么？ 普：一个人一直以为，调查是朝着一个点前进的。 克：它是一个向前的移动吗？ 普：我们试图调查上帝，真理， 但随着思想的结束，没有一个可以朝向它移动的点。
K: Go slow; do not say anything categorically. All that you can say is that there is no movement, no forward movement. Forward movement implies thought and time. That is all I am trying to get at. When you really deny that, you deny movement, outward or inward, then what takes place?
克：慢慢来；不要断然的说任何事物。 你只能说没有移动，没有向前的移动。 前进意味着思想和时间。那就是我想要表达的全部内容。 当你真正地否定了那，你拒绝移动，向外或向內，那麼，在發生什麼？
Now begins an investigation of a totally different kind. First of all, the mind, the brain realizes it wants order, security, safety to function sanely, happily, easily. That is its basic demand. Now the brain realizes that any movement from itself is within the field of time and therefore, within the field of thought; then is there a movement at all? Or is there a totally different kind of movement, qualitatively different, which is not related to time, to process, to the forward or backward movements?
现在，开始一种完全不同的调查。 首先，这颗头脑，这个大腦意識到它想要秩序、安全、保障，以正常地、快樂地、輕鬆地运转。 那是它的基本要求。现在，这颗大脑意识到，来自于它自己的任何运动都在时间的领域内。 因此，在这思想领的域内；那么，究竟还有没有运动？ 或者，有一种完全不同的运动，质的不同，一种与时间、过程、前进或后退无关的运动？
Now we are asking, is there any other movement? Is there something which is not related to time? Any movement as far as the brain is concerned, is within the field of time, outwardly or inwardly. I see that. The brain realizes that though it may think that it is extended infinitely, it is still very small. Now, is there a movement which is not related to thought? This question is put by the brain, not by some super-entity. The brain realizes that any movement in time is sorrow. So it abstains from any movement, naturally. Then it is asking itself if there is any other movement which it really does not know, which it has never tasted?
现在，我们要问，还有其它的运动吗？什么东西与时间无关？ 就大脑而言，任何运动都在时间的领域内，向外的或向内的。 我看见那。这颗大脑意识到，尽管它可能认为它是无限延伸的，但它依然非常小。 现在，存在一种与思想无关的运动吗？这个问题是由大脑提出的，而不是由某个超级实体提出的。 大脑意识到，在时间中的任何运动都是悲伤。所以，它自然会放弃任何一个运动。 然后，它问它自己，是否还有一种它真的不知道的、从未品尝过的运动？
That means one has to go back to the question of energy. There is human energy and cosmic energy. We have separated energy as human and cosmic. I have always been looking at human energy as separate, limited, incomplete within its limited field. Now the battle is over. Do you follow what I mean? Do you see it?
那意味着，一个人必须回到这个能源的问题上。有人类的能源和宇宙的能源。 我们已经将能源分为人类的和宇宙的。 我一直认为人类的能源是独立的、受限的、不完整的，在它有限的领域内。 现在，这场战斗结束了。你明白我的意思吗？你看到它了吗？
I have always regarded the movement of energy as being within the limited field and separated it from cosmic, universal energy. Now thought has realized its limitation and therefore, human energy has become something entirely different. The division - the cosmic and the human - is created by thought. The division ceases and another factor has entered. To a mind which is not centred within itself, there is no division.
我一直认为能源的运动是在有限的领域内， 并将它与宇宙、宇宙的能源分开。 现在，思想已经意识到它的局限性，因此，人类的能源已经变得完全不同。 这种分裂 —— 宇宙和人类 —— 是由思想创造的。 分裂消亡了，另一个因素进入。 对于一个不以自身为中心的头脑来说，并不存在着分裂。
Then what is there to investigate or what is the instrument of investigation? There is investigation but not the investigation to which I am used - the exercising of intellect, of reason, and all the rest of it. And this investigation is not intuition. Now, the brain realizes that in itself there is no division. Therefore, the brain is not divided in itself as cosmic, human, sexual, scientific, business. Energy has no division.
那么，有什么要调查的，或者调查的工具是什么？ 有调查，但不是我所常用的调查 —— 智力、理性和其它一切的练习。 这种调查也不是直觉。现在，这颗大脑意识到它自己没有分裂。 因此，大脑自身并没有被分为宇宙、人类、性、科学、商业。能源没有分裂。
Then what takes place? We started by asking if thought is materialistic? Thought is material, because brain is matter; thought is the result of the material; thought may be abstract but it is the result of the material. Obviously it is. Few have gone beyond.
那么，在发生什么？我们首先问：思想是物质吗？ 思想是物质的，因为大脑是物质；思想是物质的结果； 思想可能是抽象的，但它是物质的结果。 显然是这样。很少有人超越。
F: The meaning of the body is consciousness; literally what is the meaning of existence? K: What is the meaning of this room? Let us begin. Emptiness, because emptiness is created by the four walls and in that emptiness, I can put a chair and use the room. F: The room has meaning because "P" lives there. K: Furnishes, lives, fears, hopes, quarrels.
莫：身体的意义是意识；从字面上看，存在的意义是什么？ 克：这个房间的意义是什么？让我们开始吧。 空无，因为空无是由四面墙所创造的，在这种空无中，我可以放一把椅子并使用这个房间。 莫：这个房间有意义，因为普普尔住在里面。 克：家具、生活、恐惧、希望、争吵。
F: What is consciousness and you say the content, but I am asking more. What is the meaning, not the description? D: The question of meaning is only for meaning. K: "F" means something more. The meaning of my existence. None at all...... F: Is there no question of your wanting to have meaning? What is the meaning of Krishnamurti? Can you negate the self? Then you are guillotined. The individual within, the censor, existence, consciousness, body; there is the more - the abstract soul; ultimately a soul around which everything impinges. Can you negate that? K: The soul is the "me".
莫：什么是意识，你说的是内容，但我问的更多。 它有什么意义，而不只是描述？ 德：意义问题只是为了意义。 克：“莫”意味着更多的东西。我存在的意义。完全没有…… 莫：难道你不问‘你想要有意义’的问题吗？ 克里希那穆提的含义是什么？你能否定这位自我吗？然后你就被送上断头台了。 这位内在的个体，审查者，存在，意识，身体；还有更多 —— 抽象的灵魂； 最终是一个灵魂，一切都围绕着它起作用。你能否定那个吗？ 克：灵魂就是这位“我”。
P: It is that which is the difficulty. There is a validity in "F"'s question because the self is the most difficult thing to negate. If you attempt to negate the "ego" and the self you never will. But if you proceed as we have just done, that is all that is necessary. F: What is the meaning of all this? Why should the "me" end? The meaning of the atoms is organism, the meaning of organism is consciousness. Why should it stop there?
普：困难就在于此。 “莫”的问题有道理，因为自我是最难否定的东西。 如果你试图否定“自我”，这位我，你永远不会。 但是，如果你象我们刚才所做的那样去做，就是那样，那是必要的。 莫：这一切的意义是什么？为什么“我”应该结束？ 原子的意义是有机体，有机体的意义是意识。为什么它应该止步于此？
K: It does not stop there. It stops there only when thought realizes its limitations. Let us come back. What is the instrument that is going to investigate, in which there is no separation, in which there is no investigator and the investigated? I see thought has really no meaning. It has meaning only within its small field. Now it asks what there is to discover - not as a discoverer discovering something.
克：它没有停在那里。只有当思想意识到自己的局限时，它才会停在那里。 让我们回来吧。 要调查的工具是什么，其中没有分裂，其中没有调查者和被调查者？ 我看到，思想真的没有意义。它只在它小小的领域内有意义。 现在它问，有什么要发现的 —— 而不是作为一个发现者去发现某个东西。
What is the movement which is neither inward nor outward? Is it death? Is it the total negation of everything? Then what takes place? What is investigation? When thought ends, we include everything in it; we include the meaning, consciousness, the content of consciousness, despair, failure, success. It is all within that field. When that ends, then what takes place?
什么是既不向内又不向外的运动？ 它是死亡吗？是对一切的彻底否定吗？那么，在发生什么？什么是调查？ 当思想结束时，我们把一切包括在它里面； 我们包括了意义、意识、意識的內容、絕望、失敗、成功。 这一切都在这个领域内。当这一切结束时，在发生什么？
The brain exists, the recording - the part which is registering. The registering goes on. It must go on, otherwise, it would become insane, but there is the whole, which is totally quiet. Thought is no more involved. Thought does not enter into that field at all. Thought enters into a very small field of the brain.
这颗大脑存在，在记录 —— 作记录的那部分。 这种记录在继续。 它必须继续，否则，它可能变得疯狂。而这个整体，它是完全安静的。 思想不再参与。思想根本不会进入那个领域。 思想进入这颗大脑的一个非常小的领域。
P: It is a fact that we use only a millionth part of our brain. K: There is the other part. F: There is no reason to suppose that the remnants of the brain which are not used, can become anything more than other parts of consciousness. K: No, do look at it. F: Even biologically, you are not correct. The size of the brain which is usable, determines the extent of consciousness If you use more, consciousness will be greater. K: The old brain is very limited. The entire brain is the new which has not been used. The entire quality of the brain is new; thought which is limited, functions in a limited field. The old brain is not active because the limited has ceased.
普：事实上，我们只使用大脑的百万分之一。 克：还有另一部分。 莫：我们没有理由假设：大脑中未被使用的剩余部分，比意识的其他部分更多。 克：不，看它。 莫：即使从生物学上讲，你也是不正确的。可用的大脑的大小，决定了意识的程度，如果你使用更多，意识会更大。 克：旧大脑非常受限。整个大脑是新的，没有被使用过的。 大脑的整个品质是新的；思想是受限的，在有限的领域发挥作用。 旧大脑是不活跃的，因为这种限制已经消亡了。
P: You know what you are saying? If you see a little part of the brain as limited, limitation ends. K: No, limitation goes on. P: But because it does not take over the whole part, nor limit itself to itself the rest of the brain, which is not used, becomes operable. Then this is again a totally materialist position. K: Agreed. Carry on further. P: That is all, there is nothing more to discuss.
普：你知道你在说什么吗？如果你看到大脑的一小部分是受限的，那么限制就结束了。 克：不，限制还在继续。 普：但是因为它没有接管整个部分，也不局限于它自己， 所以大脑的其余部分，没有被使用，变得可操作。 那么，这又是一个完全唯物主义的立场。 克：同意。继续。 普：就是这些了，没有什么可讨论的了。
F: I have an objection. Even if the entire brain is used fully, it will still only be consciousness; it will be a tremendously enlarged consciousness. K: Depending if there is a centre. D: If there is a centre, then you are not using the other. F: We have been operating only within the limited. Now if you move into the other, how do you know that that consciousness has not a focalizing tendency? K: Focalizing takes place when thought operates as pain, despair, success, when thought operates as the "me". When the "me" is silent, where is consciousness? F: After that, it all becomes conjecture. You presume the only factor that can project the centre is disappointment, hurt. Thought is limited. And therefore, it projects itself. Why should focalization depend upon limitation? K: Focalization takes place when thought is functioning.
莫：我有一个异议。 即使整个大脑被充分利用，它仍然只是意识；它将是一个极大的扩张的意识。 克：取决于是否有一个中心。 德：如果有一个中心，那么你就没有使用另一个。 莫：我们只在受限的范围内运转。现在，如果你进入另一个，你怎么知道那个意识没有焦点化的趋势呢？ 克：当思想作为痛苦、绝望、成功而运转时，当思想作为“我”而运转时，就发生了焦点化。 当“我”安静时，意识在哪里？ 莫：在那之后，一切都变成了猜想。你假设唯一可以投射中心的因素是失望，伤害。 思想是有限的。因此，它投射它自己。为什么焦点化应该依赖于限制？ 克：焦点化发生在思想运转的时候。
P: If thought ceases with its meaning and word, if thought ceases, whatever becomes operable is not recognizable as word and meaning. F: You are becoming very narrow. I am still legitimately questioning the point that frustration is the only point of focalization. K: I included everything, not only frustration but everything in the field of time. Now I see that the brain cells have operated in a very small field and that small field with its limited energy has created all the mischief. The old brain becomes quiet. What we have called quietness is limitation becoming quiet. The noise of that has ended and that is the silence of limitation. When thought realizes that, then the brain itself, the whole brain, becomes quiet.
普：如果思想携带着它的意义和词语消亡了， 如果思想消亡了，任何变得可操作的东西都无法识别为词语和意义。 莫：你变得很狭隘了。 我仍然合理地质疑‘挫折是唯一的焦点化’这个观点。 克：我包含了一切，不仅仅是挫折，还有时间领域的一切。 现在，我看到脑细胞在一个非常小的领域内运作， 而这个能量受限的小领域创造出所有的灾难。 旧大脑变得安静。我们所说的安静是，这种局限变得安静。 这种喧嚣已经结束，那就是局部的安静。 当思想意识到了这一点，那么大脑本身，整个大脑，变得安静。
P: Yet it registers. K: Of course. Noise is going on. P: Existence continues. K: Existence without any continuance. Then what? The whole brain becomes quiet, not the limited part. F: It is the same thing to us. P: If you do not know the other, and the other is not operable, what becomes quiet for us is only limitation. K: Therefore, that quietness is not quietness.
普：它依然在记录。 克：当然。 普：继续存在着。 克：没有任何延续的存在。然后呢？整个大脑变得安静，而不是有限的部分。 莫：对我们来说也是一样。 普：如果你不知道另一个，而另一个又不可操作，对我们来说，变得安静就只是受限。 克：所以，那种安静不是安静。
P: This is something new which you are introducing. D: What makes you say we are not using the whole brain? F: I am saying my total brain is functioning but I am not conscious because I am enclosing myself within the limited field. K: Please stop first the movement of thought, then see what happens. D: When the movement of thought stops, things happen on their own and then is the enquiry of what happens necessary?
普：这是你介绍的新东西。 德：是什么让你说，我们没有使用整个大脑？ 莫：我是说，我的整个大脑在运转，但是我没有意识到，因为我把自己封闭在有限的领域里。 克：请先停止思想的运动，然后，看看会发生什么。 德：当思想的运动停止时，事物自然地发生，那么，问‘在发生什么’有必要吗？
P: I want to ask one question here. You have said that the ending of the limitation of "me" as thought, is not silence. K: That is the beauty of it. P: Let me get the feeling of it. Please say it again. K: I said when thought with its limitations says it is silent, it is not silent. Silence is when the total quality of the brain is still; the total thing, not just part of it.
普：我想在这里问一个问题。 你说过，作为思想的‘我’的终结，并不是安静。 克：那就是它的美妙之处。 普：让我感受一下。请再说一遍。 克：我说当思想携带着它的局限，说‘它是安静的’，并不是安静。 安静是当大脑的整个品质静止的时候；这个整体，而不仅仅是其中的一部分。
F: Why should the total brain become silent? K: The total brain has always been quiet. What I have called silence is the ending of the "me; the thought which is rattling around. The rattling around is thought. The chattering around has stopped completely. When the chattering comes to an end, then there is a feeling of silence but that is not silence. Silence is when the total mind, the brain, though registering, is completely quiet, because energy is quiet. It may explode but the basis of energy is quiet. (Pause)
莫：为什么整个大脑要变得安静？ 克：整个大脑一直都很安静。我所说的安静是‘我’的终结；这个嘎嘎作响的思想。 这种喋喋不休，就是思想。周围的喋喋不休已经完全停止了。 当喋喋不休结束时，就会有一种安静的感觉，但那不是安静。 当整个头脑、这个大脑，尽管在记录，完全地静下来时，才是安静，因为能源是安静的。 它可能会爆炸，但能源的基础是静。（暂停）
Now, there is passion only when sorrow has no movement. Have you understood what I have said? Sorrow is energy. When there is sorrow there is the movement of escape by understanding it, by suppressing it, but when there is no movement at all in sorrow there is an explosion into passion. Now the same thing takes place when there is no movement - outward or inward; when there is no movement of silence which the limited "me" has created for itself in order to achieve something more. When there is absolute silent, total silence, therefore no movement of any kind, when it is completely quiet, there is a totally different kind of explosion which is......
现在，只有当悲伤没有动静时，才会有激情。你理解我说的话了吗？ 悲伤是能量。当有悲伤時，就有通过理解它、压抑它而产生的逃避 但是，当悲伤中完全没有动静时，就会爆发出激情。 现在，当没有运动时 —— 外在或内在的，同样的事情在发生； 受限的“我”为了获取更多的东西而为自己创造出安静 —— 当这种运动停下时。 当有绝对的安静，完全的安靜，因此，沒有任何形式的运动， 当它完全安静时，有一种完全不同的爆炸，那就是……
P: Which is God. K: I refuse to use the word "God" but this state is not an invention. It is not a thing put together by cunning thought because thought is completely without movement. That is why it is important to explore thought and not the "other".
普：是上帝。 克：我拒绝使用“上帝”这个词，但这种状态不是发明。 它不是由狡猾的思想拼凑起来的东西，因为思想完全没有运动。 那就是为什么探索思想而不是“另一个”的很重要的原因。
D: The other day we discussed God. We also discussed energy and you spoke of human energy and cosmic energy. I will state the scientific position. Scientists have measured energy and have arrived at an equation: E=Mc2, a fantastic figure. This is material energy and biologists have also proved that life-energy is anti-entropic, which means that while material energy dissipates itself, life energy does not. So this movement of anti-entropy is against the material flow of energy which dissipates and ends in dead uniformity. The human being generally moves with entropic energy and, therefore, decays. Scientists have measured even the time span of this energy. The problem is therefore: How can man, being aware of this, be part of the movement of energy that is anti-entropic?
德：前几天我们讨论了上帝。 我们还讨论了能源，你谈到了人类能源和宇宙能量。 我将陈述科学立场。 科学家们测量了能量，并得出了一个方程：E=Mc2，一个奇妙的形式。 这是物质能量，生物学家也证明生命能量是反熵的，这意味着当物质能量自行消散时，生命能量不会。 因此，这种反熵的运动是与能量的物质流动相反的，能量的物质流趋向于消散并最终结束。 人类通常以熵能量运动，因此会衰变。科学家甚至测量了这种能量的时间跨度。 因此，问题在于：觉察到这一点的人，怎么能成为反熵能量运动的一部分呢？
K: One can see quite simply, that that which is mechanical wears itself out, given a certain time. D: What is measurable can be manipulated by the mind, by man and that is the why of the atom bomb. This energy, this movement of entropy, dominates the world today. How do we get out of its grip? P: This is a very important point. If there is a movement of energy which does not dissipate itself, which does not end, decay, then from the point of view of the scientist as well as man, it is probably the answer to all the problems of the world.
克：一个人可以很简单地看到，机械的东西在一定时间内会自我磨损。 德：可测量的东西可以被头脑、被人操纵，这就是原子弹的原因。 这种能量，这种熵的运动，主宰着今天的世界。我们如何摆脱它的控制？ 普：这是非常重要的一点。 如果存在一种能量运动，它不会自行地消散、结束、衰减， 那么，从科学家和人类的角度来看，它可能是世界上所有问题的答案。
K: So what are you asking? How is man who is caught in the movement of this mechanical decay - it may take a million years or ten million years - how can that decay be put to an end? Or is there a contrary movement? D: And the nature of that contrary movement? K: Let us put that question again simply. Man is caught in material energy, in mechanical energy; he is caught by technology, by the movement of thought - you get the key to it? D: No.
克：那么，你在问什么？人怎么陷入这种机械的磨损运动 —— 它可能有一百万年或一千万年 —— 如何结束那种磨损？或者，有一种相反的运动吗？ 德：那么这种相反的运动的性质呢？ 克：让我们再简单地提出这个问题。人被物质能、机械能所困； 他被技术，被思想运动所困 —— 你抓住它的关键了吗？ 德：没有。
K: There is the whole field of technological knowledge and the movement in that knowledge; that is the field in which man lives, which has tremendous influence on him, which is really taking him over, absorbing him; the scientists and the biologists have all measured the energy of that movement and that energy is an energy of decay, an energy of waste. Scientists also say that there is a contrary movement of energy in the opposite direction which is creative energy; the real human energy which is non-mechanical, non-technological. Now, what is the question?
克：这里有整个技术知识领域和知识的运动； 这是人所在的领域，对他产生着巨大的影响，左右着他，吸引着他； 科学家和生物学家都测量了这种运动的能量， 这种能量是一种衰变的能量，一种浪费的能量。 科学家还说，存在一种反向的能量运动，也就是创造性的能量； 真正的人类能量是非机械的、非技术的。现在，问题是什么？
D: The modern biologists - Huxley, Chardin - say the species has developed up to man from the smallest cell and in man there is an emergence of consciousness; man as an entity can be conscious of the whole evolutionary process. P: From this another very interesting fact emerges. Chardin says that the next leap forward will come by "a process of seeing" which is the same as the traditional pashyanti. I think it is important to explore this verb which has such a loaded traditional meaning in India. K: We will come to that if we can examine the decaying processes; the energy which is mechanical, which is entropic. We are also trying to find that life-energy, which is non-mechanical energy. What is this energy?
德：现代生物学家赫胥黎、夏尔丁说， 这个物种已经从最小的细胞发展到了人类，在人类中出现了意识； 人作为一个实体可以意识到整个进化过程。 普：由此出现了另一个非常有趣的事实。 夏尔丁说，下一个飞跃将通过“观察的过程”来实现，这与传统的pashyanti相同。 我认为，探索这个在印度具有如此沉重传统含义的动词很重要。 克：我们会遇到这个问题，如果我们能检查这种磨损过程，这种机械的、熵的能量。 我们也试图寻找生命的能量，也就是非机械的能量。这是什么样的能量？
D: Biologists say it lies in cultural development, in the destiny of man, not in a new species emerging. A: This question faces modern man at many levels. After the satellites went up, there was a new measurement of the cosmos. We call that the measurable infinite. But man also knows there is the immeasurable infinite. It comes to modern man the moment he gets out of the immediate and gets to an understanding of the environment in the widest sense. K: Quite. They have measured thought. They have measured memory.
德：生物学家说，它在于文化的发展，在于人类的命运，而不是新物种的出现。 阿：在很多层面上，这个问题都摆在现代人的面前。 卫星升空后，对宇宙进行着新的测量。 我们称之为可测量的无限。但人也知道有不可估量的无限。 当走出眼前的琐碎，从最广泛的意义上理解这整个环境时， 人就会碰到这个问题。 克：当然。他们衡量了思想。他们测量了记忆。
D: If you flow with material energy you are doomed. It is only inviting the entropic movement. F: You said something - that they have measured thought. Do you think thought is measurable ? K: Yes. F: In what sense do you mean this? K: In the sense that the electrical impulses of thought are measured.
德：如果你随着物质的能量流动，你注定失败。它只是在邀请熵运动。 莫：你说，他们衡量了思想。你认为思想是可以衡量的吗？ 克：是的。 莫：你是指？ 克：从某种意义上说，思想的电脉冲被测量出来了。
F: Thought is the measure of entropy. P: Only that which has a beginning and an end can be measured. K: So there is a movement which ultimately, in its very motion, leads to decay. F: It also leads to radiance and that is the end of entropy. There are those two movements - there is a mechanical movement and an anti-mechanical movement. A: The biologist's approach is very tentative when he comes to consciousness. Whenever he speaks of life-energy, he does not speak with the same precision as the other. There is a recognition that the anti-entropic is the unknown, the un-definable. After having said that there is "the other", "the other" is still unknown. D: One fact is certain. That the life-energy does not move in the direction in which the entropic energy moves.
莫：思想是熵的量度。 普：只有那种具有开始和结束的东西，才能被测量。 克：所以，存在一种运动，在它运动的终点，导致磨损。 莫：它也会导致辐射，那就是熵的终结。 有这兩種運動 —— 機械運動和非机械运动。 阿：生物学家在面对意识时，所采取的方法是非常有试探性的。 每当他谈到生命能量时，他所说的精确度都不像其它能量那样精确。 人们认识到反熵是未知的，不可定义的。 在提出“另一种”之后，“另一种”仍然是未知的。 德：有一个事实是肯定的。生命能量不会沿着熵能量的方向移动。
A: Let us take the movement of life-energy as something unknown to us We cannot manipulate it. In the measure that man becomes conscious of the entire evolutionary process in himself, he becomes aware of consciousness. P: I think we are going round in circles. The observable thing is, man is born, lives and dies. The phenomenon of a cyclic movement of beginning and ending of energy is visible and deeply structured in our consciousness - the thing emerging and disappearing, the two manifestations of energy. Is there energy which is not concerned with emerging or disappearing?
阿：让我们把生命能量的运动当作某个我们所不知道的、无法操纵的东西。 在衡量中，人意识到他自己的整个进化过程，他觉察到意识。 普：我认为我们正在兜圈子。可观察的东西是，人出生，生活，然后死亡。 能量从开始到结束的循环运动现象是可见的， 深深的刻在我们的意識中 —— 事物的出现和消失，能量的这兩種现象。 有没有对这种出现或消失都不关心的能量？
K: It is the same thing. Do we accept this that there is a beginning and ending of energy? F: Individuals may begin and end, but life does not. It creates. K: Do not bring in the individual yet. There is a movement of energy which is mechanical, which is measurable, which may end, and there is life-energy which you cannot manipulate; it goes on infinitely. We see that in one case there is wastage of energy and in the other there is non-wastage of energy.
克：它是同一个东西。我们是否接受，存在一种有开始和结束的能量？ 莫：个人可以开始和结束，但生命不会。它创造。 克：先不要带入个人。有一种能量的运动是机械的、可测量的， 它可能会结束，并且，有您无法操纵的生命能量；它无限地继续。 我们看到，在一种情况下存在着能量的浪费，而在另一种情况下，没有能量的浪费。
F: I do not see the other as a fact. K: All right. Let us see the movement of energy which can reach a height and decline. Is there any other form of energy which can never end, which is not related to the energy which begins, continues and withers away? F: That is a legitimate question. D: Is there any form of energy that will not decay? K: Now how are we going to find out? I have got it. What is energy that decays? F: What is the cause of energy you cannot answer.
莫：我不把这另一种看作一个事实。 克：好的。让我们看看这种可衡量的能量的运动。 究竟有没有其它形式的能量，一种永远不结束的，与开始、继续和枯萎无关的能量？ 莫：那是一个合理的问题。 德：有没有不会衰变的能量？ 克：现在，我们该如何找出答案？我抓到一个。什么是衰变的能量？ 莫：能量的起因是什么，你无法回答。
K: What is energy that decays? I did not say what is the cause of energy. P: Material energy decays. Why does it decay? By friction? D: By pressure? K: Is there any other form of energy which does not decay? One decays through friction. Is there any other form which does not decay?
克：衰变的能量是什么？我没有说能量的原因是什么。 普：物质的能量衰变。为什么会衰败？是摩擦吗？ 德：压力？ 克：有没有其他形式的、不会衰变的能量？ 一种通过摩擦而衰败。有不会衰败的吗？
P: Not only does it decay but it is friction. I am positing it. Let us investigate. Its very nature is friction. F: No. I do not understand your method. The fact is that there is energy overcoming friction, and energy dissipating in friction. P: You say there is an energy which decays in friction through friction. I say its very nature is friction. All that movement which we call energy, in itself is friction. Show me why it is not so?
普：它不仅在衰减，而且在摩擦。我在假设它。让我们调查一下。它的本质是摩擦。 莫：没有。我不明白你的方法。事实是，能量在克服摩擦，能量耗散在摩擦中。 普：你说有一种能量通过摩擦在摩擦中衰减。我说它的本质是摩擦。 所有我们称之为能量的运动，本身就是摩擦。告诉我为什么不是那样？
F: What is friction? P: Friction is contradiction, resistance. F: Why should energy be identified with resistance? P: We say the nature of this which we call energy is friction. D: Energy is the capacity, biological capacity, to overcome resistance, but it dissipates itself in this process.
莫：什么是摩擦？ 普：摩擦是矛盾、阻力。 莫：为什么把能量与阻力相提并论？ 普：我们说这种我们称之为能量的本质是摩擦。 德：能量是克服阻力的能力，生物的能力，但它在这个过程中会消散。
K: Like in a machine. P: So it is manifest as friction. K: So is there an energy which has no resistance at all, and therefore.... P: No. When you say that it does not touch resistance, it is not so. Life is full of resistance. How can you say this?
克：就像一台机器。 普：所以它表现为摩擦。 克：那么有没有一种能量完全没有阻力，因此…… 普：没有。当你说它不接触阻力时，事实并非如此。 生命充满了阻力。你怎么能这样说呢？
K: Let us go into this. Any energy that meets resistance wears itself out. A car going up the hill without enough power; the energy created by the machine will wear out. Is there an energy which can never wear out, whether you go uphill, downhill, parallel, vertical? Is there an energy which has no friction in itself? And if it meets resistance, it does not recognize resistance, it does not recognize friction. There is another factor to it. Energy also comes into being through resistance, through manipulation. P: The moment energy crystallizes...... K: Do not say that.
克：让我们进入这个。任何遇到阻力的能量都会自行消耗。 一辆上山的汽车没有足够的动力；机器产生的能量会磨损。 有没有一种能量永远不会消耗，无论你是在上坡、下坡、平行、垂直？ 有没有一种能量本身就没有摩擦？ 如果它遇到阻力，它不会识别阻力，也不会识别摩擦。 它还有另一个因素。能量也是通过阻力，通过操纵而形成的。 普：能量结晶的那一刻…… 克：别那么说。
P: Why, Sir, the human organism is a crystallization. K: The human organism is a field of energy, but do not use the word crystallization.I am keeping it very simple. There is energy that meets resistance and wears itself out. In that whole field, there is the energy brought about through resistance, through conflict, through violence, through growth and decay, through the process of time. Now we are asking, is there any other energy which is not of time, which does not belong to this field?
普：为什么，先生，人类有机体是一种结晶。 克：人体有机体是一个能量场，但不要用结晶这个词。让它保持非常的简单。 能量遇到了阻力，并自我磨损。 在整个领域，存在着通过抵抗、通过冲突、通过暴力、通过增长和衰败、通过时间的进程而带来的能量。 现在，我们问，有没有其他不属于时间，不属于这个领域的能量？
A: Tradition calls it the timeless arrow. F: You are asking whether there is energy which is irresistible? K: No. I only know energy which is in the field of time. It may have a span of ten million years, but it is still in the field of time. That is all we human beings know. And as human beings we are enquiring if there is an energy which is not in the field of time?
阿：传统称之为非时间的箭。 莫：你是问，有没有不可抗拒的能量？ 克：不是。我只知道在时间领域中的能量。 它可能有一千万年的跨度，但它仍然在时间的领域。那就是我们人类所知道的一切。 作为人类，我们在询问：是否有一种能量不在时间的领域内？
F: Do you mean, it is energy that does not undergo any transformation? K: Look. I know energy, the cause of energy, the ending of energy. I know energy as the overcoming of resistance, I know the energy of sorrow, the energy of conflict, of hope, of despair; they are within the field of time. And that is the whole of my consciousness.
莫：你的意思是，它是不经历任何转化的能量吗？ 克：看。我知道能量，能量的原因，能量的终结。 我知道能量是克服阻力，我知道悲伤的能量，冲突的能量，希望的能量，绝望的能量； 它们在时间的领域内。这就是我的全部意识。
I am asking, is there an energy which is not time-bound, which is not within the field of time at all? Is there energy which may go through the field of time and yet not be touched by time? It is very interesting. Man must have asked this question for centuries upon centuries, and not being able to find an answer he said there was God and put God outside the field of time. (Pause)
我在问，有没有一种能量是不受时间限制的，根本不在时间的范围内？ 有没有能量可以穿过时间的领域，却不被时间触及？这很有趣。 人类一定问这个问题，几个世纪又几个世纪， 却找不到答案，他说有上帝，把上帝放在了时间之外。（暂停）
But putting God outside the field of time is to invite God into the field of time. And therefore all that is part of consciousness. And that decays. It decays, if I may use that word, because it is of time, it is divisible. And my mind which is divisible, wanting to find a timeless energy, proceeds to formulate an energy which it calls God and worships that. All that is within the field of time. So I ask, is there any other energy which is not of time? You understand?
但是把上帝放在时间的领域之外，就是邀请上帝进入时间的领域。 因此，所有这些都是意识的一部分。然后，发生了衰败。 它衰败了，如果我可以用这个词的话，因为它是时间的，它是可分割的。 而我的头脑是可分割的，想去找一种非时间的能量， 把它加工成一种能量，称之为上帝，并崇拜它。这一切都在时间的范围内。 所以我问，有没有一种能量不属于时间领域？你理解吗？
D: Yes. K: How do I find out? I reject God, because God is within the field of time. I reject the super-self, the atman, the brahman, the soul, heaven, for they are all within the field of time. Now I ask, is there energy which is timeless? Yes, Sir. There is. Shall we go into it? D: Yes, Sir. K: How do I find out? Consciousness must empty itself of its content. Must it not? D: The question is, I am sitting on a chair, which is my condition of existence. I cannot throw away the chair.
德：是的。 克：我怎么去找？我拒绝上帝，因为上帝在时间的领域内。 我拒絕超我、阿特曼、婆羅門、靈魂、天堂，因為它們都在時間的領域內。 现在，我问，有没有非时间的能量？是的，先生，有。我们要进去吗？ 德：是的，先生。 克：我怎么去发现？意识必须清空它的内容。难道不是吗？ 德：问题是，我坐在椅子上，这是我生存的条件。我不能扔掉椅子。
K: You cannot throw away the chair, but you can throw away the content which time has created which one calls consciousness. D: The question is, if time is consciousness then there has to be something else. K: Wait. The content makes consciousness; otherwise there is no consciousness. P: May I ask something. Is the total emptying of consciousness not the same as seeing the totality of consciousness?
克：你不能扔掉椅子，但你可以扔掉时间创造的内容，一个人称之为意识。 德：问题是，如果时间是意识，那么一定有别的东西。 克：等等。内容造成意识；否则就没有意识。 普：我可以问点什么吗？意识的完全清空，等同于看到意识的整体吗？
K: It is. Agreed. I do not think I have made myself clear. There is the fact of totally emptying consciousness; there is another fact which is seeing with the totality, with all the content. Seeing the field of time as a total state, seeing the whole field of time - now what does that seeing mean? Is that seeing different from the field of time or has that seeing separated itself from the field of time and then thinks it is free and looks at the field of time which is what we call perception?
克：是的。同意。我认为我没有说清楚。 有完全清空意识的这个事实； 还有另一个事实，也就是带着整体，带着所有的内容去看。 把时间的领域看成一个整体，看到整个时间场 —— 现在，这种看意味着什么？ 这种看与时间的领域不同吗， 或者，这种看与时间的领域相分离，并认为它是自由的，然后去看这个时间领域，也就是我们所说的感知？
D: Right, Sir. This perception presupposes a perceiver. K: We go back to the same thing. So the question arises what is total seeing? I see logically, verbally; I comprehend the whole consciousness of man, the whole of it. The whole of it is the content of it and the content of it has been accumulated through time, which is culture, religion, knowledge. Whether it expands or contracts, it is still within the field of time. When it expands, it includes God, not-God, nationalism or no-nationalism. It is the whole movement of consciousness within the field of time. It is time itself. What do you say "D", consciousness is time? D: I have no other instrument but consciousness.
德：对，先生。这种感知以感知者为前提。 克：我们回到同一件事。那么，问题来了，什么是整体的看？ 我从逻辑上看，言语上看；我理解人的全部意識，整個意識。 它的全部就是它的内容 它的内容是随着时间的推移积累起来的，那就是文化、宗教、知识。 无论是扩张还是收缩，都在时间范围内。 当它扩展时，它包括了上帝、非上帝、民族主义或非民族主义。 它是意识在时间领域的整个运动。它是时间本身。 你怎么说，意识是时间？ 德：除了意识，我没有其他的工具。
K: I am aware of that. I see consciousness is time because the content of it is consciousness and the content has been accumulated through centuries upon centuries. D: Consciousness is conflict, friction. K: We know that. How can my mind look at this total field of time and not be of the field? That is the question. Otherwise, it cannot look. Total perception must be free of time. Is there a perception and seeing which is not of time? What do you say?
克：我觉察到这一点。 我看到意识就是时间，因为它的内容就是意识，而内容是几个世纪又几个世纪积累的。 德：意识是冲突，是摩擦。 克：我们知道。我的头脑怎么能看到这个时间的总领域而不属于这个领域？这就是问题所在。 否则，它无法看。完全的感知必须从时间中解放。 有没有一种不是时间的感知和看？你怎么说？
D: That is our question. K: And if it is not of time, then perception is the life-movement. Perception itself is the life-movement. D: Logically that would be so. A: Can we say perception itself is the life-movement? I do not know anything about it. K: Can my mind, which is of time, which is the content of consciousness - content is the accumulated impressions, the experience, the knowledge in time - can my mind being totally of time, disassociate itself from the total field? Or is there a perception which is not of time and therefore sees the totality?
德：那就是我们的问题。 克：如果不是时间，那么感知就是这个生命的运动。感知本身就是生命运动。 德：从逻辑上讲是这样。 阿：我们可以说，感知本身就是生命运动吗？我对此一无所知。 克：我的头脑，是时间的，是意识的内容吗？ —— 内容是累积的印象，体验，时间中的知识 —— 我的头脑完全是时间的，可以脱离整个领域吗？ 或者，有一种不属于时间的感知，因此看到了这个整体？
P: What I would say is I just cannot posit the "other". "A" is correct. A: The moment I posit it, it becomes the God of the Upanishads. When you say it, I listen. K: I have not yet said anything. A: All I can say is that seeing that all consciousness is within the field of time, I can remain with it. I am "it". K: You are "it". Somebody comes along and says that movement within the field of time is measurable and he asks is there a perception - he does not say there is or there is not - is there a perception which sees the totality of consciousness which is time? Is there such a perception? That is a legitimate question.
普：我想说的是，我只是不能假设“另一种”。“阿”是正确的。 阿：当我提出它的那一刻，它就变成了《奥义书》上的上帝。当你说的时候，我听。 克：我还没有说什么。 阿：我只能说，看到所有的意识都在时间的领域内，我就可以坚持下去。我是“它”。 克：你就是“它”。有人走过来说 时间领域的运动是可以测量的，他问是否有一种感知 —— 他没有说有或没有 —— 是否存在一种感知，看见意识的整体，也就是看见时间？ 有这样的看吗？这是一个合理的问题。
P: May I say something? I see you. I see this room. I see the interiority of my consciousness. There is no more than that. I can see. It is a concrete thing. Seeing is concrete. K: Are we wasting time? P: We are not. We have to be concrete. This is seeing.
普：我可以说点什么吗？ 我看见你。我看见这个房间。我看见我意识的内在性。仅此而已。 我能看。它是一个具体的事情。眼见为实。 克：我们在浪费时间吗？ 普：我们不是。我们必须具体。这就是看。
K: I understand "P", Here I am sitting in this room. I see the content of the room and myself in it. Myself is the observer who is conscious of the room, the proportion of room, the space of the room, and I see this through the consciousness which is made up of time. P: I have taken a step back. Because I am seeing not only the length and breadth of the room, I see X as separate from Y; I am seeing. All this is the content of this room. K: That is right. The observer and the observed are within the field of time. That is all. When the observer invents something, that is still within the field of time. So any movement is within the field of time. That is all I know. That is a fact. But knowing that, somebody comes along and asks: Is there a movement which is not of time? And that is a legitimate question.
克：我理解“普”，我坐在这个房间里。我看见房间里的内容和我自己。 我自己是这位观察者，他意识到这个房间、房间的比例、房间的空间， 通过由时间组成的意识，我看到了这。 普：我后退了一步。 因为我不仅看到房间的长度和宽度，我看到X与Y是分开的；我在看。 所有这些都是这个房间的内容。 克：没错。观察者和被观察者都在时间的领域内。仅此而已。 当观察者发明某物时，那仍然在时间的领域内。 因此，任何运动都在时间的范围内。那就是我所知道的。那是一个事实。 但是知道了那，有人走过来问：有没有一种不属于时间的运动？那是一个合理的问题。
P: I do not know. K: You can put it to yourself. Therefore, it is legitimate, because the very putting of it is legitimate. It may be a wrong question. P: Putting it makes it a fact, not legitimate. D: But it is a question. Question implies something more than a fact. K: Which means, can the mind - I am proceeding from the question - see the totality of itself? Have you understood my question? Can the mind see itself as the field of time - not as an observer seeing the field of time? Can the mind itself become totally aware so that it sees consciousness as time? It is fairly simple.
普：我不知道。 克：你可以把它放在你自己身上。因此，它是合法的，因为，问自己这个问题是合法的。 它可能是一个错误的问题。 普：把它变成一个事实，而不是合法。 德：但这是一个问题。问题意味着不仅仅是某个事实。 克：这意味着，这颗头脑 —— 我从这个问题出发 —— 能看到它的整体吗？ 你理解我的问题了吗？頭腦能不能看到这个作为时间领域的它自己 —— 而不是一个观察者看到这个時間领域？ 这颗头脑能否亲自完全觉察到那，从而看到作为时间的意识？这是相当简单的。
P: I do not see that. What is involved in seeing consciousness as time? We started with this. There is a seeing of this room, the interiority of the self, the not dividing the two, the outer and the inner; that is the totality of time. There is no other totality. A: Seeing the transitoriness is the seeing. P: Where is the transitoriness? That is a loaded word. I just see.
普：我确实没有看到那。在看到作为时间的意识之中，涉及到什么？我们从这里开始。 可以看这个房间，看自我的内在，而不去区分两者，这种外在和内在； 那就是时间的整体。没有其他的整体。 阿：看到这种短暂性，就是看。 普：短暂性在哪里？那是一个沉重的词。我只是看。
D: If you just see then you do not see. The mind is part of time. F: It is so clear. She only sees a section of me. P: You are accepting too easily what Krishnaji is saying. K: I only know one thing: I am the totality of consciousness. P: The totality of consciousness at this moment is the perceiving of the room and the interiority within me. That is all. F: That is not all. P: What else is there? A: The other is seeing me not only as a person but as a vast process. D: When you say "I see", is it a static movement you see or do you see movement as flux? P: I see that. (Pointing) I see you talking the next minute. Where is flux in it? A: Do you mean that the totality of what you perceive is in time? P: I do not say that. I say where does time arise? A: Is it seeing as static or as movement? B: It will not do for us to conceptualize it.
德：如果你只是看，那么你就看不到。这颗頭腦是時間的一部分。 莫：它太清楚了。她只看到自我的一部分。 普：你太容易接受克里希那吉所说的话了。 克：我只知道一件事：我是这个意识的整体。 普：此刻，这个意识的整体，就是对房间和我的内在的感知。仅此而已。 莫：那还不是全部。 普：还有别的吗？ 阿：另一个是不仅看到我这个人，而且看到一个广阔的过程。 德：当你说“我看”时，你看到的是一种静态的运动，还是流动性的？ 普：我看那。（指向）我看到你在下一分钟说话了。其中的流动性在哪里？ 阿：你的意思是，你感知到的全部是在时间之内？ 普：我不是这么说的。我是说，时间从哪里来？ 阿：它是静态的还是运动的？ 芭：我们把它概念化是不行的。
P: When I am observing thought, I see it as flux. I see movement. I see thought as movement; I wake up to a thought having been, then again of thought having been, then again of thought having been. And I put these together and say there is movement. When Krishnaji says "perceive this room", I perceive the room, the interiority; there is no perception of time. It is the active present.
普：当我观察思想时，我把它看作是流动性的。我看到运动。我认为思想是运动； 我醒来时，想到一个想法，然后又想到了曾经的想法，然后又想到一个。 我把这些放在一起，然后我说，那就是运动。 当克里希那吉说“感知这个房间”时，我感知到这个房间、这里面的内容；这种感知与时间无关。 它是这个活泼的现在。
K: What is it that you are trying to say, "P"? P: Your statement of the perception of consciousness as a movement of time is not valid. If we do not get the concreteness of seeing, we move into the field of the conceptual. K: What you are saying, are you not, is that you perceive when you enter the room, the proportion, the space, the colour, and you perceive consciousness with the same tactile feel?
克：你想说是什么，普普尔？ 普：你把对意识的感知为一种时间运动，这种说法是站不住脚的。 如果我们没有得到看的具体性，我们就会进入概念的领域。 克：你说的是，你不是吗？ 当你进入这个房间时，你感知到比例、空间、颜色， 带着同样的触觉，你去感知意识吗？
P: Then "A" speaks and I perceive that. Then I connect the two, and thought brings in time. There is no time apart from the connection. K: If there is perception, there is no time. I look and there is no time. P: You asked a question, "Do you see consciousness as the whole content of time?" I questioned that statement - I want to examine it with a microscope.
普：然后，阿克尤特说话，我感知到了。 接着，我把两者联系起来，思想带来了时间。除了这种连接之外，并没有时间。 克：如果有感知，就没有时间。我看，没有时间。 普：你问了一个问题，“你是否看到作为时间的整个内容的意识？” 我质疑那种说法 —— 我想用显微镜检查它。
K: My mind is the result of time - memory, experience, knowledge. My consciousness is within the field of time. How can I see that the whole content is within the field of time? P: Because of memory, of thought. K: How can I see that the whole content is within the field of time? Is it a conclusion which we have arrived at just now or is it an actual perception? Let us go slowly. We have said verbally that my mind, the brain, the whole of it is the result of time. Is that a conclusion, or do I see it as a fact and not as a conclusion? Right, Sirs? P: How would you distinguish the two? K: One is a formula, a conclusion, a statement, the other I am finding out.
克：我的头脑是时间的结果 —— 记忆、体验、知识。 我的意识在时间的领域内。我怎样才能看到整个内容都在时间的领域内？ 普：因为记忆，因为思想。 克：我怎样才能看到整个内容都在时间领域内？ 这是我们刚才得出的结论，还是真实的感知？让我们慢点儿。 我们口头上说过，我的思想，大脑，整个大脑都是时间的结果。 那是一个结论，还是我看见它是一个事实而不是一个结论？对吧，先生们？ 普：你如何区分这两者？ 克：一个是公式，一个结论，一个陈述，另一个是我正在发现的。
P: I find it very difficult. You know what you are trying to do, Sir? Can there be a perception of an abstraction? The moment thought is not, "what is" is an abstraction. K: Wait. You have drawn your conclusions. I have not come to any. When you say it is an abstraction, it is a conclusion. P: I ask myself, when I say that consciousness is the product of time, is it a statement or is it something I can see? K: Is it a statement with verbal meaning, which I accept, and therefore it becomes a conclusion, or is it an actual fact as this room, an actual fact that the whole of my brain, the whole of my consciousness is this enormous field of time? Is it as concrete as that?
普：我觉得它很难。先生，你知道你在尝试做什么吗？ 能不能有一种抽象的感知？在思想没有的那一刻，“什么是”是一个抽象。 克：等等。你已经得出结论。我什么都没有引入。当你说它是一个抽象时，它就是一个结论。 普：我问自己，当我说意识是时间的产物时，它是一个陈述，还是某个我能看到的东西？ 克：它是一个言语上的陈述，而我接受它，因此成了结论？ 还是像这个房间一样，是真切的事实， 一个真切的事实：我的整个大脑，我的整个意识就是这个巨大的时间领域？ 它有那么具体吗？
P: How can it be as concrete as the other? K: I will show it to you in a minute. I see a conclusion is not a fact, because thought has entered into it and heard this statement and accepts it and makes it a formula and remains with that formula. That is an abstraction. A formula is an abstraction created by thought and therefore it is the cause of conflict. It is the very nature of conflict. I see that very clearly. Now, is there a perception which is not of thought, of the total field of time as the mind? Formulas are the most deadly things. Formulas and concepts are products of thought and, therefore, are all within the field of time. P: Why is it necessary to make this absolute statement at all? Why is it necessary to make an absolute, finite, statement?
普：它怎么能像另一个一样具体？ 克：我一会儿向你展示它。我看到，结论不是一个事实， 因为思想已经进入它，听到了这个陈述，接受它，把它变成一个公式，并坚持那个公式。 它是一个抽象的概念。公式是由思想创造的抽象，因此它是冲突的原因。 它是冲突的本质。我看得很清楚。 现在，有没有一种感知，不是思想，不在作为这个头脑的整个时间的领域内？ 公式是最致命的东西。 公式和概念是思想的产物，因此都在时间领域内。 普：为什么有必要做出这种绝对的陈述？ 为什么有必要做出一个绝对的、定性的陈述？
K: I will show you in a minute. I am enquiring into the field of time. Time, we said, is consciousness. Time is the result of centuries upon centuries of experience. That is my consciousness, and the consciousness is made up of all the content. I hear you state that and thought picks it up and makes a formula of it. I see that the very formula is within the field of time, that very formula is the factor of friction. So I do not touch it. I have negated it. I am now asking myself; have I negated it? Or am I still thinking, feeling that I have negated it? Am I still trying to find a fact which is not within the field of time? (Pause)
克：我会在一分钟内向你展示它。我正在调查时间领域。 我们说，时间是意识。时间是几个世纪又几个世纪的体验的结果。 那就是我的意识，意识是由所有这些内容组成的。 我听到你这么说，思想把它捡起来，把它制造成一个公式。 我看到，这个公式就在时间的领域内，这个公式就是摩擦因素。 所以，我不碰它。我已经拒绝了它。我现在问我自己；我拒绝它了吗？ 或者，我还是在思考，在感觉，以为我已经拒绝了它？ 我是，我仍在尝试寻找一个不在时间范围内的事实？（暂停）
I am finding something - when thought operates, it must operate within the field of time, it must come to a conclusion and conclusion is part of consciousness; that is all. I now ask myself, is there any movement of thought or am I pretending to myself that there is no movement of thought and only perception? When I come to this room, I see. There is no movement of thought. I just see. The moment thought comes in, it comes into the field of time. Now I am asking, is the mind deceiving itself by saying "I have no formula", but is entrenched in formula; formula being thought, which is consciousness? Or is there a perception which has nothing whatsoever to do with thought? I only know that all consciousness is within the field of time and thought is consciousness.
我发现了某个东西 —— 当思想运作时，它必定在时间的领域内， 它必定得出一个结论，而结论，就是意识的一部分；仅此而已。 我现在问我自己，有一丝的思想吗， 或者，我是在假装我自己没有思想，而只有感知？ 当我来到这间房，我看。没有思想的运动。我只是看。 思想进入的那一刻，它就进入了时间的领域。 现在，我问，头脑是否通过说“我没有公式”而欺骗它自己， 却根深蒂固地纠缠于公式中，就是思想、意识中？ 还是有一种与思想无关的感知？ 我只知道所有的意识都在时间的领域内，思想就是意识。
Therefore, I am enquiring - I do not want to deceive myself, I do not want to pretend that I have got something which I have not got. I see whenever thought comes into being, it must create a formula, and the formula is within the field of time. The whole of consciousness is time. I hear you say this. Now is it a formula which I have accepted or is it a fact - the fact being there is a perception of the total movement of thought?
因此，我在调查 —— 我不想欺骗我自己，我不想假装我得到了某个我没有得到的东西。 我看到，每当思想形成时，它必定创造出一个公式，而这个公式就在时间的领域内。 整个意识就是时间。我听你这么说。 现在，它是我已经接受的一个公式，还是一个事实 —— 这个现存的事实：一个对思想的整体运动的感知？
P: You see, Sir, these are words which you use - the total movement of thought - what is meant by those words? When you ask whether we have accepted it as a formula, I have neither accepted it as a formula nor is it a fact. It is neither of these. K: But by listening, by examining, by investigating, you say this is so. It is not a question of accepting. Now, move a step further. Is that "it is so", an acceptance of an idea, intellectual and therefore still within the field of time? P: I will never answer that question to you or to myself. K: I am asking it. P: What do I answer?
普：先生，你看，这些是你用的词 —— 思想的整体运动 —— 这些词是什么意思？ 当你问我们，是否把它作为一个公式接受时，我既没有把它作为一个公式来接受，它也不是事实。 这些都不是它。 克：但是通过听，通过检查，通过调查，你这么说。它不是一个接受的问题。 现在，进一步移动。 这种说法‘它就是那样’，是对一个观念的接受，在智力上，因此仍然在时间的领域内吗？ 普：我永远不会回答这个问题，无论是向你或我自己。 克：我在问它。 普：我该怎么回答？
K: You are not asking that question. You know nothing about it. I want to find out whether the mind that is the result of time, hearing that statement, does it accept it as a statement, as a formula, and therefore remains in time, or it sees the truth, it sees the fact. Then what takes place? It is a fact. Nothing more can be said when thought does not arise. I see the room, but the moment thought says it has proportion, colour, beauty, time enters - you follow? In the same way this whole field of time exists only when thought operates. Now am I pretending that this operation is a formula or is it a fact which is realizable, which we can be aware of? Or is thought completely absent, and only aware of time and nothing more? Then what takes place? I am aware of this room without any interference of time.
克：你不是在问那个问题。你对它一无所知。 我想找出，这颗头脑是不是时间的产物，听到那个陈述， 它是否作为一个陈述，作为一个公式而被接受，因此，依然留在时间中， 还是，它看到这个真理，它看到这个事实。那么，在发生什么？它是一个事实。 当思想没有冒出的时候，就不能再说了。 我看到这个房间，但是，在那一刻，思想说它有比例、颜色、美，时间进入 —— 你跟着吗？ 同样，只有在思想运作的时候，整个时间领域才存在。 现在，我假装这种运作是一个公式，还是一个我们触碰到的、觉察到的事实？ 或者，思想完全地缺席，只觉察到时间而没有其它的？ 那么，在发生什么？我意识到这个房间，没有任何时间的干涉。
P: At this moment, this instant what are you aware of? K: The mind which is the result of time, hearing what you are saying, that the whole of consciousness is time, accepts that as a formula and says, "yes". the statement "yes" is the perception of a conclusion which is the operation of thought. Therefore, I see that there is still time operating in that sense. So is there an operation of perception without thought? What takes place then?
普：在此时，这一刻，你觉察到什么？ 克：这颗头脑是时间的产物，聽你在說什么，整個意識就是時間， 把它作为一个公式而接受，并说“是的”。这个陈述“是”，就是对一个结论的感知，结论就是思想的运作。 因此，我看到，在那个意义上，依然是在时间中运作。 那么，是否存在一种没有思想的感知运作？那么，在发生什么？
P: What are you perceiving at this moment? (Pause) K: (Makes a gesture brushing one hand over the other) Nothing. That is it. It is logically right. A: When we come, when we hear, the next moment it has become a memory. K: I am not concerned about you at all. Forgive me. I am not concerned whether you see or do not see. I said to you I am going to investigate. I am investigating. You are not investigating. You are merely remaining with the formula. I see this fact. Am I perceiving the formula with a formula, or perceiving without a movement of thought without a formula? Then "P" asks me, in that state what is there to perceive? Absolutely nothing, because it is not of time. That is the factor of life-energy. F: The state which you are just now describing can be called entropy of thought, a state where no movement is possible any more. K: You are not investigating. F: It has not ended here. You are ending it.
普：你此刻在感知什么？（暂停） 克：（做一个手势，用一只手摸另一只手）什么都没有。就是那样。它在逻辑上是正确的。 阿：当我们过来，当我们听的时候，在下一刻，它就变成了一段记忆。 克：我一点也不关心你。原谅我。我不关心你看到还是看不到。 我对你说，我要去调查。 我正在调查。你没有调查。你只是留在公式上。 我看到了这个事实。我在用公式感知公式，或者，是在没有公式的情况下感知思想运动？ 然后，普普尔问我，在那种状态下有什么可感知的？ 绝对没有，因为它不属于时间。这就是生命能源的因子。 莫：你刚才描述的状态可以称为思想熵，一种不再可能有运动的状态。 克：你不是在调查。 莫：它还没有在此结束。你正在结束它。
P: I want to ask another question. You say that there is nothing. Is there movement? K: What do you mean by movement, before I say yes or no? P: From here to there. K: Measurable, comparable. Measurable means movement. The movement, when it is measured, is within the field of time. Right? And you are asking me whether in that nothingness, there is movement? To you movement is measurable and if I say there is, you will then tell me it is measurable and therefore it is in time. P: There is movement in nothingness. K: Which means what? The movement of time is one thing and the movement of nothingness is not of time, therefore not measurable. But it has its own movement which you cannot possibly understand unless you leave the movement of time. And that is infinite and that movement is infinite.
普：我想问另一个问题。你说什么都没有。有动静吗？ 克：在我说是或否之前，你说的运动是指什么意思？ 普：从这里到那里。 克：可测量的，可比较的。可测量性意味着运动。 这个运动，在它被测量时，是在时间的领域内。对吗？ 你问我，在那虚无中，是否有运动？ 对你来说，运动是可以测量的，如果我说有，你就会告诉我它是可以测量的，因此它属于时间。 普：虚无中有运动。 克：那意味着什么？时间的运动是一回事，虚无的运动不是时间的运动，因此是不可测量的。 但是它有自己的运动，除非你离开时间的运动，否则你不可能理解它。 那是无限的，那种运动是无限的。
P: I wanted to ask you Krishnaji, if there is one question which needs to be asked by the individual, which would open the door to reality. Can all questions be reduced to the one question? F: Is there such a thing as a door? We cannot ask a question about that, for which there can be no metaphor. K: I think she asks, in the sense of a door, an opening, a breakthrough. F: From your own experience what would you say is breaking-through? There is no point of reference. K: What is the question? P: There are many things which we have discussed during the last few days. Can all these questions converge into one question? K: I think so.
普：我想问你，克里希那吉， 如果个人需要问一个问题，这将打开通往现实的大门。 所有问题都可以简化为一个问题吗？ 莫：有这样的东西吗？我们不能就此提出问题，对此没有任何比喻。 克：我想她问的是，一扇门、一个开口、一个突破口。 莫：根据你自己的体验，你认为什么是突破？没有参考点。 克：这个问题是什么？ 普：过去几天，我们讨论了很多东西。所有这些问题可以汇聚成一个问题吗？ 克：我想是的。
F: I would not put it that way. I come to you because in you there is an imponderable quality, a tiny seed of something which makes you entirely different. I do not look for differences in manifestation, but there is in you a tiny little touch of something, that "elseness" of yours - now is there a key to that? Is there a question which opens that up? B: If I may ask, what is it that prevents one from seeing? The difficulty is with us. Last evening when we heard Krishnaji's talk we felt that there was nothing which we would not be prepared to do, if it was in us to do it. Can all that you say be held in one question? To you it is a very simple thing. You have an amazing capacity of converting diversity into a single thing. This convergence has not taken place in us. Could there be some action which would make all questions melt into one question?
莫：我不会这么说。 我來你这儿，是因為在你身上有一種不可估量的品質，一顆微小的种子，使你完全不同。 我不是在寻找表现上的差异， 但是，在你身上有一点东西，你的“其他” —— 现在，那里有一把钥匙吗？ 有没有一个问题可以打开它？ 芭：如果我可以问，是什么阻止了一个人看？这个困难困扰着我们。 昨晚，当我们听到克里希那吉的谈话时， 我们感到没有什么是我们没有准备去做的，如果它在我们里面运作的话。 你说，能不能放在一个问题中？对你来说，这是一件非常简单的事情。 你有将多样性转化为单一事物的惊人能力。这种趋同力并没有在我们身上发生。 是否有某个行为可以使所有问题融化为一个问题？
P: I would further ask, if it were not possible to simplify all questions into one question, is there an instrument and what is that instrument which will make this possible? There is one interesting fact that I have observed in what Krishnaji has been saying in the last few days, and that is, he does not say thought is totally unnecessary. He says thought has a place and thought has no place. There is a region where thought is necessary and there is a region where thought has no function. The mechanism which makes it possible for thought to operate only where it should and not where it should not, without any evaluation, without the operation of will, without a doer, without a director, without a trick; that instrument, that mechanism is the essential thing. How does it happen that thought arises only where it legitimately should function and does not impinge into areas where it should not function, because there thought has investment in illusion? K: Now what is the question?
普：我会进一步问，如果不可能将所有问题简化为一个问题， 有没有一种仪器，该仪器会使这成为可能？ 在过去几天里，我观察到克里希那吉所说的话，有一个有趣的事实， 也就是说，他并没有说思想是完全没有必要的。 他说思想有一席之地，却没有地位。 有一个区域需要思想，有一个区域思想没有功能。 这种机制使思想只能在它应该在的地方运作，而在不应该的地方则不运作， 没有任何评价，没有意志的运作，没有做的人，没有行动者，没有任何把戏； 那个仪器，那种机制是至关重要的。 思想只在它合法之地，发挥它的作用 思想只在适合它的地方、在它应该发挥功能的时候冒出， 并且不会侵犯它不应该发挥作用的领域，因为在那里，思想是在投入幻觉，这是怎么发生的？ 克：现在，这个问题是什么？
P: What is the instrument? How does this happen? We have examined our minds with a microscope. Now we ask under whose command do the brain cells function? What happens to them if there is no one to direct, to command? K: I thought "K" explained yesterday that it is intelligence. D: It is the same thing. Intelligence means instrument. K: Let us keep to the word "intelligence". D: How does it happen? Intelligence functions in different dimensions. The artist, the philosopher use intelligence, but that is not intelligence. K: Intelligence is that quality of mind which can use knowledge, all the vast field of knowledge, but not use knowledge in another field. F: The difference that exists between me and you, is it in the degree of intelligence or is there another factor operating in you?
普：这个仪器是什么？这是怎么发生的？我们用显微镜检查了我们的头脑。 现在我们问，脑细胞在谁的指挥下运作？如果没有人指挥、命令，在发生什么？ 克：我想“K”昨天的解释是智慧。 德：是同一个东西。智慧意味着仪器。 克：让我们继续使用“智慧”这个词。 德：它是怎么发生的？智慧在不同维度上运作。 藝術家、哲學家使用智慧，但那不是智慧。 克：智慧是头脑的那种品质， 它能在所有广阔的知识领域内使用知识，在别领域却不使用知识。 莫：我和你之间的区别，是智慧的高低，还是你身上有其他因素在起作用？
K: "P" asked a question, which is, what is the essential demand in life? And she goes on further to ask whether thought can operate sanely, efficiently in the whole field of knowledge where it is necessary and not operate in another field where it brings chaos, misery? Now what is the thing that can prevent thought from operating so that it does not create misery?
克：普普尔问了一个问题，那就是，生命的本质需求是什么？ 她进一步问， 思想是否能够在必要时在整个知识领域内理智、高效地运作 而不是在另一个会带来混乱、痛苦的领域运作？ 现在，什么东西可以阻止思想运作，以免遭痛苦？
Can we tackle this question differently? Can the mind, the totality of the mind, empty itself of everything, of knowledge and non-knowledge; the knowledge of science and language and also the mechanism of thought that functions all the time? Can the mind empty itself of all that? I do not know if I am making myself clear. Can the mind empty itself not only at the conscious level but at the deeper secret chambers of the mind? From that emptiness can knowledge operate and not operate?
我们能以不同的方式解决这个问题？ 这颗头脑、这头脑的整体，能否清空一切，知识和非知识的； 科学和语言的知识以及一直起作用的思想机制？ 头脑能清空这一切吗？我不知道我是否说清楚了。 头脑能否不仅在意识层面，而且在头脑更深的秘室中清空它自己？ 从这种虚无中，知识能够运作和不运作吗？
B: The question then would be emptiness? K: Let us see. Can the mind empty the whole content of itself as the past, so that it has no motive? Can it empty itself and can that emptiness use knowledge, pick it up, use it and drop it, but always remain empty? Emptiness in the sense of the mind being nothing; emptiness which has its own movement, which is not measurable in terms of time. A movement which is in emptiness, which is not the movement of time, that movement can operate in the field of knowledge and there is no other operation. That movement can only operate in the field of knowledge and nowhere else.
芭：那么问题来了，虚无是？ 克：让我们看看。头脑能不能把它自己的全部内容，也就是过去，清空掉，这样它就没有了动机？ 它能清空它自己吗？虚无能不能使用知识，捡起它，使用它，放下它，却总是保持空灵？ 头脑的虚无是一种什么都没有的感觉；虚无有它自己的运动，无法用时间来衡量。 一种空灵的运动，它不是时间的运动， 这种运动可以在知识的领域内运作，不在其余的地方运作。 这种运动只在知识领域运作，而不能在其他地方运作。
P: Are they two movements? K: That is why I said that movement can operate only in knowledge; it has no two movements. Please follow. I am just investigating. You are asking a question, which is, that from what you have observed in your talks here, "K" has divided knowledge and freedom from knowledge. Knowledge operating in the field of science in which there must be a certain will, a certain direction, an operative function, a design; and knowledge not operating where there is no place for thought and therefore of will. B: You mean not even thought which is more than will? K: Of course. Let us get the question clear. I am a little bit doubtful of the question.
普：它们是两种运动吗？ 克：这就是为什么我说运动只能在知识中运作；没有两种运动。请跟上。 我只是在调查。你问一个问题，那就是， 在这些谈话中，你观察到，“K”已经区分了知识和知识的解放。 在科学领域运作的知识，其中必须有一定的意志，一定的方向，运作的功能，设计； 以及在没有思想，因而也没有意志的领域内，思想不运作。 芭：你的意思是，思想更甚于意志？ 克：当然。让我们把问题弄清楚。我对这个问题有点怀疑。
F: It seems sometimes we operate deliberately and sometimes non-deliberately. I can see I do something of which I know nothing, and yet I operate. So there are these two operations: mental and non-mental. The movement of the two are not separate. K: Watch your own mind, "F". You see thought operating always within the field of knowledge. The knowledge brings pain and that knowledge helps man to live more comfortably environmentally. Right? - and that thought also brings misery, confusion. That is a fact. F: I object to the "always". K: Wait. Then you and I ask, is thought necessary? Why does it create misery? Is it possible for thought not to create misery? That is all. Keep it as simple as this.
莫：似乎，有时我们故意运作，有时是非故意的。 我可以看到，我做了一些我一无所知的事情，但我在运作。 所以，这里有两种运作：精神和非精神的。两者的运动不是分开的。 克：注意你自己的头脑，莫里斯。你看，思想总是在知识的领域内运作。 知识带来痛苦，知识帮助人类在环境中生活得更舒适。 对吗？—— 这种思想也带来了痛苦和困惑。这是事实。 莫：我反对“总是”。 克：等等。当你和我问，思想是有必要的吗？ 为什么它造成痛苦？思想有可能不制造痛苦吗？仅此而已。就这样，让它保持简单。
F: My answer to that is the roots of misery are not known to me. The promptings which create misery, I do not know. K: We began with the superficial layers. Now we will go into the secret chambers of the mind. P: Surely we are not positing a state of consciousness where thought will operate at the technological level and at the day-to-day level of action where necessary, and if by some kind of trick, electric shock, all other consciousness as thought were to be wiped away, it would be enough? We are not postulating that surely. K: Of course not. P: But look Sir, the moment you speak of a place where thought can operate legitimately and a place where thought has no legitimate place you are postulating the other - a state which is non-thought. If consciousness is only content, then what is the other?
莫：我的回答是，我不知道痛苦的根源。我不知道这种造成痛苦的潜在因子。 克：我们从表层开始。现在，我们将进入头脑的密室。 普：当然，我们不是在假设一种意识状态。 思想将在技术层面上运作，必要时在日常行动层面上运作， 如果通过某种技巧，电击，所有其他思想的意识都被抹去，就足够了吗？ 我们并不是在假设这一点。 克：当然不是。 普：但是先生，你看， 当你谈到在某个地方，思想可以合法地运作，在另一个地方思想没有合法的地位 你是在假设另一个 —— 一种没有思想的状态。 如果意识只是内容，那么另一个是什么？
D: I can go into a state of constant euphoria. Is that enough? This can happen through lobotomy. K: Then you become a vegetable. D: Then if that is not so, what else is there in consciousness? F: When you said that thought is consciousness, it is there that I put a question mark? Is thought the entirety of consciousness? Can we say that consciousness is nothing beyond thought? I would question this.
德：我可以进入一种持续的陶醉状态。那就够了吗？这可以通过脑叶切除术发生。 克：那你就变成了植物人。 德：那么，如果不是这样，意识中还有什么呢？ 莫：你说，思想就是意识，我打了一个问号，思想是意识的全部吗？ 我们能说‘除了思想之外，意识什么都不是’吗？我会质疑这一点。
K: So we have to go into the question of consciousness. B: We are going back. You used the word "intelligence" in a different way. That word is the key, if we know what it is. P: But this also a very valid question: if content is thought, if all consciousness is content and it is legitimate for thought to function in the field of technology, and all impinging of thought in the psychological direction is pain, then cutting thought away, will it solve the problem? K: No.
克：所以，我们必须进入意识的问题。 芭：我们在往回走。你以不同的方式使用了“智慧”这个词。这个词是关键，如果我们知道它是什么。 普：但这也是一个非常有效的问题：如果内容是思想，如果所有的意识都是内容。 思想在技术领域发挥作用是合法的， 而所有思想在心理方向上的冲击都是痛苦，那么把思想斩断，会解决问题吗？ 克：不能。
P: Then what is the "other"? F: Intelligence is different from consciousness. We must distinguish between the two. Intelligence is much vaster than consciousness. We can have unconscious intelligence. P: What is consciousness? K: What is consciousness? There is a waking consciousness, there is hidden consciousness; consciousness of certain parts of me, of the superficial mind, and a lack of total awareness of the deeper layers of consciousness.
普：那么，什么是“另一个”？ 莫：智慧不同于意识。我们必须区分这两者。 智慧比意识要广阔得多。我们可以有无意识的智慧。 普：什么是意识？ 克：什么是意识？有清醒的意识，有隐藏的意识； 我有一部分意识，浅表层的头脑的意识，以及更深层的、没有被完全地觉察到的意识。
P: I would say, Krishnaji, that there is a consciousness in which thought operates, then there is a consciousness where attention is and where there is seeing; and a consciousness which is unconscious of thought. I see these three states as they operate in me. K: Three states which are the memory, - P: Being awake when thought is not, - K: Wait, wait. The memory, the operation of memory as thought, as action; then attention, a state of attention where there is no thinker. P: And a state of being asleep when you are not aware of thought nor of attention.
普：我会说，克里希那吉，有一种意识在思想中运作， 然后，有一种意识，那里有注意，一种看； 以及一种对无意识的思想。我看到这三种状态在我身上运作。 克：三种状态是记忆 —— 普：在清醒的时候，没有思想 —— 克：等等，等等。这种记忆，这种记忆的运作，就是思想，就是行为； 然后，有注意，一种没有思考者的注意的状态。 普：还有当你没有意识或注意时，一种睡着的状态。
K: So you are saying there is the operation of thought, memory, having been and will be. Then there is a state of attention and there is a state in which there is neither attention nor thought, but a sense of being half asleep. P: Half awake, half asleep. K: All this is what you would call consciousness. Right? P: In all these states whether consciously or unconsciously, sensory perceptions are in operation.
克：所以，你是说有思想、记忆、过去和将来的运作。 然后是一种注意的状态 有一种状态，既没有注意也没有思想，而是一种半睡半醒的感觉。 普：半苏醒，半瞌睡。 克：所有这些，都是你所说的意识。对吗？ 普：在所有这些状态中，无论是有意的还是无意的，感官知觉都在运作。
F: Do not bring in the unconscious. Do not call the unconscious a form of consciousness. D: I wanted to ask whether we cannot include dreams also into it; that is the unconscious part. F: Dreams are dreams because they become conscious. P: The state in which one spends a large part of the day, one goes out, images come and go; that is still consciousness. F: This is a patchy thing. The point is consciousness is not a continuous phenomenon.
莫：不要带入无意识。不要称无意识为一种意识形式。 德：我想问一下，我们是否不能将梦也包括在内；那是无意识的部分。 莫：夢之所以是夢，是因為它們没有变成意識。 普：一个人一天中大部分时间都在这种状态，一个人走神，思想来来去去；那仍然是意识。 莫：这是个不完整的东西。关键是意识不是一个连续的现象。
K: Can we start this way? I am just being tentative - there is consciousness, wide or narrow, deep or shallow. As long as there is a centre which is conscious of itself, that centre may expand or contract. That centre says I am aware or not aware. That centre can attempt to go beyond the limitations which it has placed around itself. That centre has its deep roots in the cave and super-ficially operates. All that is consciousness. In all that there must be a centre.
克：我们可以这样开始吗？我只是试探性的 —— 有意识，宽或窄，深或浅。 只要有一个中心意识到它自己，那个中心可能扩大或收缩。 那个中心说，我意识到或没有意识到。 那个中心能够试图超越它对自己施加的限制。 那个中心深深植根于洞穴中，并在表面上运作。 那一切，就是意识。那一切中，必定有一个中心。
P: May I ask you a question? Let us be very careful. Would you say there is no operation of consciousness in you? K: We will come to that presently. That is not the point. A: I wanted to ask whether there is such a thing as the matrix in which there is not even a centre, because it is out of that the centre is formed? K: Matrix? A: Matrix is thought; the matrix of temporality. P: Consciousness is that which registers. It is the only thing which distinguishes life from a state of death. As long as there is registering there is no death. K: Are we speculating? Look, let us begin very simply. When are you actually conscious? P: When I am awake, when I am aware. K: I would begin very simply. When am I conscious? P: I am conscious of this discussion.
普：我可以问你一个问题吗？让我们非常小心。 你会说，你的里面，没有意识在运作吗？ 克：我们现在就谈这个问题。那不是重点。 阿：我想问，是否存在本质这样的东西，在它的里面，甚至没有一个中心，因为中心是从本质中形成的？ 克：本质？ 阿：本质是思想；暂时性的这个本质。 普：意识是记录的东西。这是区分生命和死亡状态的唯一因素。 只要有记录，就没有死亡。 克：我们在猜测吗？看，让我们非常简单地开始。你什么时候真正有意识？ 普：当我醒着的时候，当我意识到的时候。 克：我很简单的开始。我什么时候有意识？ 普：我意识到了这个讨论。
K: Let us keep it simple. When am I conscious? Either through sensory reaction, through a sensory shock, a sensory resistance, a sensory danger, a conflict in which there is pain-pleasure. It is only in those moments that I say I am conscious. I am aware of that lamp, the design; I perceive that there is a reaction and I say it is ugly or beautiful. Is not that the basis of all this? I do not want to speculate. I ask myself "when am I conscious?" When I am challenged, when there is an impact, conflict, pain, pleasure, then I am conscious.
克：让我们保持简单。我什么时候有意识？ 要么通过感官反应，要么通过感官冲击，感受上的抵制，感受到的危险，其中有苦与乐的冲突。 只有在那些时刻，我才说我是有意识的。 我意识到那盏灯，那种设计；我感知到那是一种反应，然后我说：它是丑陋的或美丽的。 那难道不是这一切的基础吗？我不想去猜测。 我问我自己“我什么时候有意识？” 当我受到挑戰時，当出现了一种影響、衝突、痛苦、快樂，我就有了意識。
D: But there may be no focus at all. K: Wait Sir. I want to start here; otherwise we get lost in theory. This whole phenomenon is going on, whether there is a deliberate awareness or not, this thing is operating all the time. That is what we call consciousness. F: The response to impact. P: You mean there is no photographic consciousness. I see a dust-bin.... K: But you are seeing it. The mind is registering it. That is, the brain cells are receiving all these impacts.
德：但是，可能根本没有焦点。 克：等等，先生。我想从这里开始；否则我们会迷失在理论中。 这整个现象正在发生，无论是否是刻意的，这种事情一直在运作。 这就是我们所说的意识。 莫：对影响的回应。 普：你的意思是没有画面的意识。我看到一个垃圾桶…… 克：但是你在看它。頭腦正在記錄它。 也就是说，脑细胞正在接受所有这些影响。
F: And in that is there no classification as pain, pleasure? K: Impact as pleasure, pain, conflict, sorrow, conscious, or unconscious, is going on all the time and there may be an awareness of all that at one moment, and at other moments there may not be. But it is going on all the time. So what is the next question? P: This process itself is consciousness and the centre that observes is also part of consciousness.
莫：难道没有对痛苦、快乐的分类吗？ 克：快乐、痛苦、冲突、悲伤、有意或无意的影响一直在发生 可能在某些时刻意识到这一切，而在其他时刻却没有。 但它一直在进行。那么，下一个问题是什么？ 普：这个过程本身就是意识，那个观察的中心也是意识的一部分。
K: What is the next question? B: What is the nature of the unconscious? K: It is still the same. Only it is the deeper layer. B: Why are we unconscious of the deeper layer? K: Because superficially we are very active all the time. B: So the density of the superficial layer prevents our being conscious of the deeper layers. K: I am making noises on the surface. It is like swimming on the surface. So what is my next question? B: Is it possible to integrate the various layers? K: No.
克：下一个问题是什么？ 芭：无意识的本质是什么？ 克：还是一样。只不过它在更深的层次。 芭：为什么我们对更深的层次没有意识？ 克：因为，我们一直在表皮上很活跃。 芭：因此，表皮的密度阻止了我们对深层的意识。 克：我在表面上制造出噪音。就像在水面上游泳一样。那么，我的下一个问题是什么？ 芭：是否可以整合各层？ 克：不能。
P: What is the relationship of thought to consciousness? K: I do not understand this question because thought is consciousness. P: Is there anything else but thought? K: Why do you put that question? P: Because we started with the question that I observed you speak of a region where thought has a legitimate place and a region where thought has no legitimate place - and yet you say thought is consciousness.
普：思想与意识的关系是什么？ 克：我不明白这个问题，因为思想就是意识。 普：除了思想，还有别的吗？ 克：你为什么提出这个问题？ 普：因为我们从我观察到的问题开始， 你说过，在一个区域中，思想有合法的地位；还有一个区域，思想没有合法的地位 —— 然而，你说思想就是意识。
K: Slowly. Let us stop here. The first question was, is thought part of this whole thing? What is its relationship to consciousness? Consciousness is thought - pain, conflict, registration, memory, remembrance. When the superficial consciousness is making a lot of noise, you come and ask what is the relationship between thought and all that? Thought is all that. P: You have said something just now - thought is part of all that. Then what is the rest? A: All this is consciousness. Thought comes into operation when the "I" wants to localize. K: That is right.
克：慢一点。让我们就此打住。 第一个问题是，思想是整体的一部分吗？它与意识有什么关系？ 意識是思想 —— 痛苦、衝突、記錄、記憶、回憶。 当肤浅的意识发出很大的噪音， 你走过来问，思想和那一切的关系是什么？ 思想就是那一切。 普：你刚才说 —— 思想是那一切的一部分。那么，剩下的是什么？ 阿：这一切都是意识。当“我”想要进入时，思想就开始运作。 克：没错。
F: When the brain is cut off then there is no thought. K: Which is the memory squeezed, held and paralysed. All that we have described, memory, everything, is consciousness. Now thought comes into operation when I am interested in a part of this. The scientist is interested in the material phenomena, the psychologist in his area, because he has limited the field of investigation. Then thought comes as a systematizer. F. Is thought the non-self-consciousness? K: When "P" asks what is the relationship between thought and consciousness, I think that is a wrong question. P: Why?
莫：当大脑被切断时，就没有思想了。 克：这是记忆被挤出、拿掉，被瘫痪。我们所描述的，记忆，一切，都是意识。 现在，当我对其中的一部分感兴趣时，思想就开始运作。 科学家对物质现象感兴趣，心理学家对他所在的领域感兴趣， 因为，他限制了调查的领域。然后，思想作为统筹者而出来了。 莫：思想是非自我意识吗？ 克：当普普尔问思想和意识是什么关系时，我认为这是一个错误的问题。 普：为什么？
K: There is no relationship between the two because there are no two. Thought is not something separate from all this. P: Is thought part of it or is thought all? K: Go slow. I do not want to say something which is untrue. F: Thought is co-extensive with consciousness. Let us not sub-divide.
克：两者之间没有关系，因为不存在两者。思想不是与这一切分开的东西。 普：思想是其中的一部分，还是思想是全部？ 克：慢慢来。我不想说一些不真实的话。 莫：思想与意识是共同扩展的。我们不要细分。
K: "P" asks "F", a very simple question. What is the relationship between thought and all this? F: Which is the "other". She has no business to speak of the two as separate. P: I won't accept this so easily because in everything "K" says the "other is posited. Thought has a legitimate place in the field of technology and it has no legitimate place in the other field and if you were to perform an operation and wipe out thought, it is not enough. Therefore the "other" is posited.
克：普普尔问了莫里斯一个非常简单的问题: 思想和这一切之间有什么关系? 莫：那是‘另一个’。她无权将两者分开。 普：我不会那么容易接受这一点，因为在一切事物中，“K”都假设出‘另一个’。 思想在技术领域有合法的地位，在另一个领域没有合法的地位。 如果你要执行一个手术并消除思想，它是不够的。因此，“另一个”被假设出来。
A: What I am trying to say is, is there in consciousness space which is not covered by thought? P: Quite right. K: I am not at all sure. I do not say you are not right. So go on. A: I say there is space in consciousness which is not thought and that is part of the human heritage. It is there. K: I do not think in consciousness there is any space. P: I want to put another question to you. When I perceive you and listen to the whole thing operating, there is no movement of thought, but I am totally conscious. I cannot say - K: Why do you call that consciousness? Wait, go slow. "A" says there is space in consciousness. We have to answer that question. P: Whenever you make a statement like that, you immediately come to this that wherever there is space there is a boundary. A: I may be using the wrong word. K: You have used the right word. But we do not see that space cannot be contained in a frontier, in a boundary, in a circle.
阿：我想说的是，在意识的空间中，是否存在不被思想覆盖的空间？ 普：完全正确。 克：我完全不确定。我不是说你不对。所以，继续。 阿：我说，意识中存在着空间，它不是思想，那人类遗产的一部分。它就在那里。 克：我不认为意识中有任何空间。 普：我想问你另一个问题。 當我感知到你，聽到整個事情的運作時，沒有思想的動作，但我是完全有意識的。我不能说—— 克：你为什么称之为意识？等等，慢慢来。 “阿”说，意识中有空间。我们必须回答这个问题。 普：每當你這樣說時， 你马上就来到这一点：只要有空間，就有一個邊界。 阿：我可能用错了词。 克：你用的词是对的。 但是我们没有看到，空间是不能被包含在边界、界线和圆圈中。
A: It is not space, if it is held within a circle, a square, a rectangle. In one sense, of course, it is space. K: Where there is a border there is no space. D: According to the scientists, time and space are bound together. K: But when we say consciousness has space, then consciousness has time. Do not call that space. Space exists only when there is time. Time is limitation. Space in the sense in which we use the word does not exist in consciousness. That space is something else. Leave that for the moment. Now what is the next question?
阿：它不是空间，如果它被固定在一个圆圈、一个正方形、一个矩形内。 从某种意义上说，当然，它是空间。 克：有边界的地方就没有空间。 德：根据科学家的说法，时间和空间是联系在一起的。 克：但是，当我们说意识有空间时，意识就有时间。不要称它为空间。 只有当有时间时，空间才会存在。时间是受限的。 我们使用这个词的意义上的空间，在意识中是不存在的。那个空间是其它的东西。 暂时不说。现在下一个问题是什么？
P: If we can take it from this point, I ask what is the relationship of thought to consciousness. Is thought contained in consciousness? K: Do not use the word relationship. That means the two; thought means all that. Thought is consciousness. Do not put it in any other way. P: Yes. Thought is consciousness, listening is consciousness, learning is consciousness. If thought is consciousness, is thought not related to seeing as consciousness? K: Put the question this way. Is there a state of mind when there is no learning at all? You see the question? P: You have left us far behind now.
普：如果我们能从这一点出发，我问思想与意识的关系是什么。 思想包含在意识中吗？ 克：不要使用关系这个词。这意味着两个东西；思想意味着那一切。 思想就是意识。不要以任何其他方式表达。 普：是的。思想是意识，听是意识，学习是意识。 如果思想是意识，那么思想与作为意识的看无关吗？ 克：把这个问题这样表达。当根本没有学习的时候，有没有一种头脑的状态？你看到这个问题了吗？ 普：你现在已经把我们远远地抛在了后面。
F: There are fields in which we operate without consciousness. Most of our relationships are beyond the reach of consciousness. I operate unconsciously. K: I want to go slowly, please. Thought is consciousness, listening is consciousness and learning is consciousness. Listening, seeing, learning, hearing, is part of all this, and memorizing and reacting to that memory is part of all this. P: When any one of these is operating, there is no other. What you then say is understandable. Then there is no duality. Now we take the next step. When each of these operates, it is consciousness. K: And it is not a dualistic consciousness. P: Is it the part operating?
莫：在某些领域中，我们在无意识地运作。 我们大多数的关系都超出了意识的范围。我在无意识地操作。 克：我想走慢点，拜托了。思想是意识，听是意识，学习是意识。 听、看、学、听，属于这一切的一部分， 而记忆和对这种记忆做出的回想，都是这一切的一部分。 普：当其中任何一个正在运行时，没有其余的。 那么，你说的是可以理解的。那就没有二元性了。 现在我们采取下一步行动。当这些中的每一个运作时，它就是意识。 克：它不是一种二元性的意识。 普：它是局部的运作吗？
K: I would not use the word part. It is the focalizing of consciousness. It is not the whole of consciousness. Look, I say a few words in French or Italian; at that moment there is just that. P: What about the English? K: It is still there. When thought is operating in that specific field, there is no duality. When thought compares that particular operation to another then there is duality. Right? I say how marvellous that lamp is. It is finished. But when thought says I wish I had it in my room, then there is duality. See what has been found, when there is the simple functioning of thought without any motive, there is no duality.
克：我不会用局部这个词。 它是意识的焦点化。它不是意识的全部。 看，我用法语或意大利语说几句话；在那一刻，就是那样。 普：那么，英语呢？ 克：它仍然在那里。 当思想在那个特定领域运作时，就没有二元性。 当思想将那个特定的运作与另一个运作进行比较时，就有二元性。对吗？ 我说，那盏灯多么奇妙。它完成了。 但是，当思想说，我希望我把它放在我的房间里，就有了二元性。 看看发现了什么，当思想的简单运作没有任何动机时，就没有二元性。
P: This again is very difficult - thought is motive. K: No. What is thought? I have a memory of that sunset - I see that sunset. It is recorded at that moment, it is finished. But thought comes along and says.... P: I am saying thought is motive, not the registration, because thought is word, word is loaded, word is meaning. K: There is memory of that sunset, then thought says, I wish it would happen again. In that, motive operates. D: Yes Sir. When you look at that sunset, motive is irrelevant.
普：这又是非常困难的 —— 思想是动机。 克：不是。什么是思想？我记得那场日落 —— 我看到了那日落。 在那一刻，它被记录下来，它完成了。但是思想随之而来，说…… 普：我说思想是动机，不是记录，因为思想是词，词是被加载的，词是有意义的。 克：有关于那个日落的记忆，然后思想说，我希望它能再次发生。 在那里，动机在运作。 德：是的，先生。当你看到那日落时，动机是无关的。
P: Sunset is an impersonal thing, let us not take that. I am jealous. There is a movement of jealousy as thought. You see Krishnaji, this is in some subtle way connected with the problem of containing - space - time - K: "P", you just now said jealousy. Jealousy is the factor of duality - that is, my wife looks at another man, and I feel jealous because I possess her, she is mine. But if I observe, if I am aware that she is not mine from the beginning, then the factor of jealousy does not enter. She is a free human being as I am a free human being. I allow her freedom.
普：日落是一件非私人的东西，让我们不要用那。 我嫉妒。有一股嫉妒的运动。 你看，克里希那吉，这在某种隐秘的程度上，包含了 —— 空间 —— 时间 —— 这个问题。 克：普普尔，你刚才说嫉妒。嫉妒是二元性的因素 —— 也就是说，我的妻子看着另一个男人，我感到嫉妒，因为我占有她，她是我的。 但是，如果我观察，如果我从一开始就觉察到她不是我的，那么嫉妒的因素就不会进入。 她是一个自由的人，就像我一样自由。我允许她的自由。
P: I understand that. But we are talking about the structure of thought. Thought arises in consciousness. In itself there is no duality. K: There is duality only when there is the operation of motive, measurement, comparison. In the observation of a lovely sunset, in seeing the light, the shadow, there is no duality. The word "beautiful" may be dualistic in terms of the ugly, but I am using the word without comparison. The moment I say I wish I had it again, begins the dualistic process. That is all.
普：我理解那。但我们谈论的是思想的这种结构。 思想在意识中产生。本身没有二元性。 克：只有出现了动机、测量、比较的运作时，才有二元性。 在观察美丽的日落时，在看到光、影时，没有二元性。 “美丽”这个词，对于丑陋来说，可能是二元论的，但我使用这个词的时候，没有去比较。 当我说，我希望我再次拥有它的那一刻，开始了二元论的过程。仅此而已。
P: We have somehow moved away. K: I will come back, which is, consciousness is perception, hearing, seeing, listening, learning and the memory of all that and the responding according to that memory. All that is consciousness, whether or not focalized. In that consciousness is time; time which creates space because it is enclosed. Let us stop there. In that there is duality, non-duality, the conflicts - I must, I must not - the whole of that field is consciousness. All that is consciousness. And in that there is no space at all because it has boundaries, frontiers, which are limitations.
普：我们有点离题了。 克：我会回来的，那就是， 意识是感知、听见、看到、倾听、学习和所有这些记忆，以及根据该记忆而做出的反应。 所有这一切都是意识，无论是否焦点化。 在那意识中，就是在时间中；时间创造出空间，因为它是封闭的。让我们就此打住。 在这里有二元性，非二元性，衝突 —— 我必須，我不能 —— 这整个领域就是意識。 这一切都是意识。 在这一点上，根本没有空间，因为它有界线，边界，也就是限制。
A: There is another factor which I would like to have included. There are the perceptions of various peoples of the world - of the African Continent, of the Latin American Continent; there is some kind of movement constantly going on; there are the findings of the physicists, the biologists - the perceptions and experiences of the world are syphoning into my consciousness. How can we ignore all that? If we only take the "I" and see the source of it, it is not enough: What is this process by which that thing is syphoning into me? The movement of the "I" as thought is something that is constantly being fed and renewed by that. Unless I see this process, I do not understand.
阿：这里还有一个因素，我想把它包括在内。 这世界上，有各国人民的感知 —— 非洲大陆、拉丁美洲大陆， 有一种不断进行的运动； 物理学家，生物学家的发现 —— 这些感知和这个世界的体验，正进入我的意识。 我们怎么能忽视这一切呢？如果我们只是捉住这个“我”来看它的源头，那是不够的： 那个吸进我体内的东西的过程是什么？ 作为思想活动的“我”，不断被喂食和更新。 除非我看到这个过程，否则我就不理解。
K: We said, Sir, the whole of this field of consciousness is the movement of contraction and expansion, a movement of information, knowledge, registration of knowledge, motivation, change, the political theme, what is going on in the Middle East, all that is happening in the environment, is part of me: I am the environment and the environment is the me. In that whole field there is the movement of the me. I like the Arabs and I do not like the Jews - within this consciousness, this comes up - A: I question that. I say when I see all that, I am not even taking sides because there are the African tribes liberated and then caught up in militarism and all that. K: See what happens. Colonialism, freedom from colonialism, the tribe, then the identification with the tribe as the me who belongs to the tribe.
克：我们说过，先生，整个意识领域是收缩和扩张的运动， 一个包含了信息、知识、知识的记录、动机、改变、政治主题、中东正在发生的事情、环境中发生的一切的运动，都是我的一部分： 我就是这个环境，这个环境就是我。在整个领域里，就是这位“我”的运动。 我喜欢阿拉伯人，我不喜欢犹太人 —— 在这个意识中，这位（‘我’）出现了 —— 阿：我对此表示质疑。我说，当我看到这一切时，我甚至没有站在任何一边， 因为，有些非洲部落被解放了，然后陷入了军国主义等等。 克：看看在发生什么。殖民主义，摆脱殖民主义的自由，部落， 接着，认同于这个部落，也就是这位我，并从属于这个部落。
A: In this wide canvas we see thought is syphoning into this focus which we call consciousness. K: All that is consciousness. Consciousness creates the mischief by saying, "I like", "I do not like". I see that, I am a witness to this "I like" and "I do not like" also, because that is part of this movement over which I have no control at all. A: I would say that may be so. But that is not the problem. The problem is the identification which gives this weightage to the "I like" and "I don't like", that it builds around it. K: Here I am born in India, with all the environment, all the superstitions, the riches and poverty, the sky, the hills, the economic, the social, the whole of that is me.
阿：在这幅广阔的画卷上，我们看到思想正在吮吸这些，并纳入我们称之为意识的焦点中。 克：那一切就是意识。意识通过说“我喜欢”、“我不喜欢”来制造灾难。 我看到那，对于这些“我喜欢”、“我不喜欢”来说，我是一个目击者，