24 THE BRAIN-CELLS AND MUTATION 脑细胞与突变

K: I wonder if that so-called horizontal movement was not a very conditioned and superficial movement? The young man, repeated what he was taught and at a given moment, there was a break. You follow? P: No, I do not. What is meant by a superficial movement of conditioning? K: That is, the boy accepted, repeated, walked along the path laid down traditionally and theosophically. He accepted it. P: All of us do just that.

克：我在想，所谓的水平运动是不是一种非常受限的、肤浅的运动？ 这位年轻人重复着他被教导的内容，在那一段时刻，有一个突破。你跟上了吗？ 普：不，我没有。受限的肤浅运动是什么意思？ 克：也就是说，这个男孩接受，重复，沿着传统和神智学铺设的道路行走。他接受了。 普：我们所有人都那么做。

K: All of us do it in varying degrees. The question is why did he pursue that journey? P: No. The question is what was it that triggered that which suddenly made him say that there is no fixed point? K: Look at it as if "K" is not here. He is dead. How would you answer this question. I am here and so may answer you or may not, but if I were not here how would you answer it? P: One way of doing so would be to examine what you have said, along with the influences which have operated on you, at the time, to see at what point the break took place and what were the crises, inward or outward, that have been recorded, to produce that break.

克：我们所有人都在不同程度上那么做。问题是他为什么要追求那段旅程？ 普：不是。问题是，是什么促使他突然说出‘不存在固定的点’那种话？ 克：看它，就好像“K”不在这里。他死了。你会如何回答这个问题。 我在这里，所以，可以回答你，也可以不回答，但如果我不在这里，你会怎么回答？ 普：一种方法是检查你所说的话，以及对你的影响， 当时，看看突破点是发生在什么时候， 以及产生这种突破、被记录下的内在或外在的危机是什么。

K: But suppose you knew nothing of all that, and yet you had to answer the question seriously now, what would you do? What you say would take time, investigation. How would you find out now? How would you find out if you were faced with this problem that there was a young man who followed the traditional path, the idea of a fixed point, the fixed goal, using time, evolution, and at a given point he broke away. How would you unravel it? D: It is like this. We boil water under heat. Up to a hundred degrees it is uniform and then there is complete transformation. K: But to come to that point takes time.

克：但是假设你对这一切一无所知，但你现在必须认真回答这个问题，你会怎么做？ 你说的那种方式，需要用时间去调查。现在，你怎么去发现？ 如果你面临这个问题，你怎么去发现一个年轻人遵循传统道路， 一个固定点、一个固定的目标的理念，利用时间，进化，在给定的一个点上，他突破了。 你会如何揭示它？ 德：就好像是这样。我们在下面加热烧开水。 在100摄氏度以下，它是均匀的，接着，有完全的转变。 克：但是，要走到这一步需要时间。

P: If I did not have the historical background, the only way of investigation would be to see whether this process is possible within my consciousness. D: I was driving at something else. The traditionalist would say there is a process which, like the boiling point of water, leads to transformation. Tradition only helps to take you up to the boiling point. You can negate tradition but the necessity of tradition up to a point is there. P: If the historical data were not available of "K" being put through various sadhanas and one were just given the fact of this phenomenon of "K", the only way to investigate would be through self-knowing.

普：如果我没有历史背景， 唯一的调查方法是看看这个过程在我的意识中是否可能。 德：我正在开往别的地方。传统主义者会说，有一个过程，就像水的沸点一样，导致转变。 传统只会帮助你达到沸点。你可以否定传统，但在某种程度上，传统的必要性是存在的。 普：如果没有“K”经历各种修行的历史资料 而一个人刚刚知道了“K”这种现象的事实，唯一的调查方法就是通过自我认识。

D: How would you explain the phenomenon? F: You seem to be creating a relationship between the former state of development and the present state of being. Is there a relationship between the two? You say one leads to another, one before another and you are arranging it in time. P: The phenomenon of "K" is that he was born of Brahmin parents...the whole history we know. I look at his background, I notice that up to a point K talked of time, of salvation as a final point and suddenly the whole thing was negated. K: "F" says why do you relate this movement, the horizontal movement to the vertical movement? There is no relationship between the two. Therefore keep the two separate.

德：你如何解释这种现象？ 莫：你好像是在以前的发展状态和现在的状态之间，创建一种关系。 两者之间有关系吗？ 你说一个导致另一个，一个先于另一个，你在时间上排列它。 普：“K”的现象是他是由婆罗门的父母所生…… 我们知道这整个历史。 我看他的背景，我注意到K谈到了时间，救赎是最后一点，突然间整个事件都被否定了。 克：“莫”说，你为什么把这种运动，这种水平和垂直的运动联系起来？ 两者之间没有关系。因此，保持两者的分离。

P: When I look at "K", I look at the whole background. K: Look but do not relate the two. P: The question is if what you say has to be meaningful, it is essential to understand this process of time and the freedom from it. I therefore ask the question: What triggered it in you? If you tell me it happened, I will say all right. If it happens, it happens, if it does not, it does not. I will continue my life. F: There is no trigger.

普：当我看“K”时，我看到整个背景。 克：看，但不要把两者联系起来。 普：问题是，如果你说的话有意义，那么，必须理解这种时间的过程和对它的这种解放。 因此，我问这个问题：是什么触发了你？如果你告诉我它只是发生了，我会说好吧。 如果它发生了，它就发生了，如果它没有，它就不发生。我会继续我的生命。 莫：不存在触发器。

P: A certain brain made certain noises and suddenly started making other noises and "K" has been saying the brain cells themselves are time. Do not let us get away from that. So the brain cells of "K" which were time, underwent some kind of mutation. K: I will show you very simply. The cultivation of a brain, of any brain takes time. Experience, knowledge and memories are stored up in the brain cells. This is a biological fact. The brain is the result of time. Now this man at a point breaks the movement. A totally different movement takes place, which means, the brain cells themselves undergo mutation. And "P" says you must answer and say what took place; otherwise what happened was merely chance.

普：某个大脑发出某些声音，突然间，开始发出其他声音，“K”一直在说脑细胞本身就是时间。 让我们不要逃避这一点。因此，“K”的脑细胞是时间，经历了某种突变。 克：我会简单地展示给你。一颗大脑的培养，任何大脑的培养都需要时间。 体验、知识和记忆储存在脑细胞中。这是一个生物学事实。 大脑是时间的结果。现在这个人在一个点上突破了这个运动。 发生了完全不同的运动，这意味着脑细胞本身经历了突变。 “普”说，你必须回答并说出发生了什么；否则发生的事情只是偶然的。

D: If it is chance, then we will accept it. B: An answer by Krishnaji may help us to bring about a mutation in ourselves. S: Two explanations are possible. One is the theosophical explanation that the Masters were looking after "K" and so he was untouched by experience. Another explanation is that of reincarnation. D: When "K" says that the boy K was not touched by experience, how does he know? The boy wrote The Path, The Search; I will not go into the end product where he was not touched.

德：如果它是偶然，那么我们会接受。 芭：克里希那吉的回答可能会帮助我们带来我们自己的突变。 苏：有两种解释。一个是神智学的解释，即大师们在照顾“K” 所以他没有受到体验的影响。另一种解释是轮回。 德：当“K”说那个叫K的男孩没有被体验所触碰时，他是怎么知道的？男孩写了《道路》，《寻找》; 我不会进入他没有被触碰的最终产品。

K: Just leave that for the moment. How did it happen? What is your answer? Given these facts, faced with them, how do you answer this? B: Sir, how can we answer the change in you which took place in 1927? Mrs Besant has said that the two consciousnesses would not be merged. We do not know. You alone can say what took place. We have no personal knowledge nor the capacity to know.

克：暂时不说那。它是怎么发生的？ 你的答案是什么？鉴于这些事实，面对这些事实，你如何回答这个问题？ 芭：先生，我们该如何回答1927年发生在您身上的变化？ 贝赞特夫人说过，这两种意识不会合并。我们不得而知。 只有你才能说发生了什么。我们没有个人的知识，也没有能力去知道。

K: Let us investigate it together. F: I will put it this way. The man woke up into another state. If you posit a causal link between the past and the present then what you say is so. One does no lead to another. There is no connection. P: I say the brain cells themselves cannot comprehend time which is not a horizontal movement. Unless this is understood, we cannot explore at very great depth into the problem of time.

克：让我们一起调查。 莫：我会这样说。这个人醒来时进入了另一种状态。 如果你假设过去和现在之间存在因果关系，那么你所说的就是这样。 一个不会导致另一个。没有连接。 普：我说脑细胞本身无法理解时间，那种不是水平运动的时间。 除非理解这一点，否则我们无法非常深入地探讨时间问题。

K: Let us explore. First of all, is there time involved at all? If you ask me how did this happen to me, I really do not know. You understand? But I think we can investigate it together. If you ask me "did you go for a walk last night?" I would say yes. Whereas if you ask me "how did this happen to you?", I really could not say how. What is wrong with that?

克：让我们来探索。首先，其中涉及到时间吗？ 如果你问我这是怎么发生在我身上的，我真的不知道。 你理解吗？但我认为我们可以一起调查。如果你问我“你昨晚去散步了吗？”我会说“是的。” 然而，如果你问我“这是怎么发生在你身上的？”，我真的说不出是怎么回事。那有什么问题吗？

P: In itself, it is all right. But we are trying to comprehend the essential nature of this time movement and non-time movement - leave yourself out of it, it is important that we investigate into the nature of time, not at the level of chronological time and psychological time for we have gone into that sufficiently. K: Begin with perception; is seeing involved with time? P: What happens to the brain cells in the process of seeing? K: The brain cells in the process of seeing, either respond in old terms or are held back in abeyance; they hold themselves back in abeyance without the past.

普：就其本身而言，它没有问题。 但是，我们试图理解这个时间运动和非时间运动的本质 —— 把你自己排除在外， 重要的是，我们要调查时间的本质， 不是在时间顺序和心理时间的层面上，因为我们已经充分地进入了这个问题。 克：从感知开始； 看与时间有关吗？ 普：在看的过程中，脑细胞会发生什么变化？ 克：脑细胞们在看的过程中，要么用旧的术语做出反应，要么被搁浅； 在搁浅的时候，它们使自己回退，没有携带着这个过去。

P: You say that in perception which is instantaneous, the brain cells hold back. If they are not operating, do they exist? K: They do, as the storehouse of knowledge which is the past. The brain cells, we all agree, are the storehouse of memories, experience, knowledge which is the past. That is the old brain. In perception, the old brain does not respond. P: Where is it? K: It is there. It is not dead. It is there because I have to use knowledge to think. The brain cells have to be used.

普：你说，在瞬时的感知中，脑细胞们会回退。 如果它们不动作，它们是否存在？ 克：它们确实存在，作为过去的知识宝库。 我们都同意，脑细胞是仓库，装着记忆、体验和知识，也就是过去。 那是一颗旧大脑。在感知中，旧大脑没有反应。 普：它在哪里？ 克：就在那里。它没有死。它之所以存在，是因为我必须用知识来思考。必须使用脑细胞。

P: What operates then? If the brain cells are not operating, what is operating? K: A totally new brain. The old brain is full of images, memories, responses and we are used to responding with the old brain. You say(see) perception is not related to the old brain. Perception is the interval between the old response and the response which is new, which the old does not yet know. In that interval there is no time.

普：那么，是什么在运作？如果脑细胞没有在运作，那么在运作的是什么？ 克：一个全新的大脑。旧大腦充滿了印象、記憶、反應，我們習慣於用舊大腦做出回應。 你看，感知与旧大脑无关。 感知是旧反应和新的回应之间的间隔，这个旧的还不知道。 在那个间隔内，没有时间。

F: There is a contradiction. In psychology, sensation is itself direct. In the interval between sensation and perception, memories jump in and distort. So sensation is timeless but the interval is time. K: Let us get this clear. You ask me a question. The old brain responds according to its information, according to knowledge; if the old brain has no knowledge, no information, there is an interval between the question and answer.

莫：这里有一个矛盾。在心理学中，感觉本身就是直接的。 在感受和感知之间的间隔中，记忆跳入并扭曲。 所以，感受是非时间的，但这个间隔就是时间。 克：让我们把这个说清楚。你问我一个问题。 根据知识，旧大脑根据其信息做出反应； 如果舊大腦没有知識，没有信息，問題和答案之間就會有一個间隔。

F: The interval is due to the sluggishness of the brain cells. K: No. F: Memory traces continue in the brain. K: You ask me what the distance is between here and Delhi. I would not know. No amount of my thinking with the brain cells would help. The fact is not registered. If it were, I would then think about it and answer. But there is no knowing. In that no-knowing, there is a state in which time does not exist.

莫：间隔是由于脑细胞的迟钝。 克：不是。 莫：记忆的痕迹被保留在大脑中。 克：你问我这里和德里的距离是多少。我不知道。 我的脑细胞再怎么思考，都无济于事。这个事实并没有被记录。 如果有记录，我会思考并答复。但是没有。 在这种不认识的情况下，有一种时间不存在的状态。

D: No amount of waiting will make me know. K: The moment I know, the knowing is time. P: You have said two or three things; you have talked of a new mind. The question is what has happened to the old brain? K: The old is quiet. P: Has it existence? K: Of course it has; otherwise I cannot speak the language.

德：再多的等待也不会使我知道。 克：我知道的那一刻，这种认识就是时间。 普：你说了两三件事；你谈到了一个新的头脑。问题是旧大脑怎么了？ 克：旧的安静了。 普：它存在吗？ 克：当然；否则我就不会说这种语言。

P: The problem is of time as a horizontal movement which has continuity - I am asking the question; the moment you say the other continues to exist - K: Otherwise, I cannot function. P: When the new exists, the other, the old, does not. K: Perfectly right. Hold on for a moment. Let us call it for convenience sake, the old and the new brain. The old brain has, through centuries, collected all kinds of memories, registered every experience and it will function on that level all the time. It has its continuity in time. If it has no continuity, then it becomes neurotic, schizophrenic, imbalanced. It must have sane, rational continuity. Now that is the old brain with all its stored-up memories. Such continuity can never find anything new because it is only when something ends, that there is something new.

普：问题是时间是具有连续性的水平运动 —— 我在问这个问题；当你说另一个继续存在的那一刻—— 克：否则，我就不能运转了。 普：当新的存在时，另一个，旧的，不存在。 克：完全正确。稍等片刻。为了方便起见，让我们称它为新大脑和旧大脑。 几个世纪以来，旧大脑收集了各种记忆， 记录了每个体验，它将始终在该层面上运转。 它在时间上有其连续性。如果它没有连续性，那么它就会变得神经质、精神分裂、不平衡。 它必须具有理智、理性的连续性。现在，这就是旧大脑及其所有存储的记忆。 这种连续性永远不会发现任何新的东西，因为只有当某个东西结束时，才会有新的东西。

F: Continuity of what? When you say continuity, it has a movement. K: It is adding, taking away, adjusting; it is not static. D: There is a circular movement; it is a continuity. K: First let me see this continuity, the circular movement, as a repetition of the old. At a given point of time I call it the new, but it is still the old. I hanker for the new and invent the new within the circle. P: There is the new which is a rearrangement of the old and there is the "new', which is not a rearrangement of the old. What is the other new which is not the invention of the old? Is it recognizable, is it perceivable? K: It is perceivable but not recognizable.

莫：什么连续性？当你说连续性时，它有一个运动。 克：是增加、拿走、调整；它不是静态的。 德：有圆周运动；它是一种连续性。 克：首先让我把这种连续性，圆周运动看作是旧的重复。 在给定的时间点，我称之为新的，但它仍然是旧的。我渴望新事物，并在圈子内发明新事物。 普：这个新，是旧的重新排列， 还有一种新，不是旧的重新排列。 什么新不是旧的发明呢？它是可识别的，是可感知的吗？ 克：是可感知的，但无法识别。

P: So it is not an experience? K: It is a perception without the observer. D: But not in terms of the past. K: Perception means something new. F: Sensation is without the past. Sensation is not loaded. It is direct. K: The mind which has become mechanical craves for something new. But the new is always within the field of the known. You may call the movement within the field, horizontal, circular, infinity, but it is always within that field: I want the new in terms of the old. "P"'s question was about the brain, which is the result of time, experience, knowledge; what happens to that brain when there is a perception which is new, in which there is no experience, no observer; in which perception is not an experience to be stored up and remembered and therefore to become knowledge.

普：所以这不是一种体验？ 克：这是一种没有观察者的感知。 德：但不是就过去而言。 克：感知意味着新的东西。 莫：感受没有这个过去。感受不是被加载的。它是直接的。 克：已经变得机械化的头脑渴望着新。但新的总是在已知的场内。 你可以称场内的运动为水平、圆形、无穷大，但它总是在该场内： 利用旧的术语，我想要新的。 “普”的问题与大脑有关，大脑是时间、体验、知识的产物； 当有一种新的感知时，大脑在发生什么， 其中没有体验，没有观察者； 其中的感知不是一种需要储存和记住并因此成为知识的体验。

F: The brain does not respond: K: What makes it not respond? How does this happen? P: We should leave everything and remain here, because something of vital significance is happening here. We have still not got the feeling of it. I am listening to you. I am attentive. In that state of attention there is nothing else but sound and movement. Can I understand in that state what has happened to the whole weight of the past? K: It is fairly simple. I understand the question. The past is in continuous operation; it is registering every incident, every experience, the conscious and the unconscious: Everything is pouring in, the sound, the seeing.

莫：大脑没有回应： 克：是什么让它没有回应？这是怎么发生的？ 普：我们应该放下一切，留在这里，因为这里正在发生一些至关重要的事情。 我们仍然没有感觉到它。我在听你说话。我很细心。 在这种注意的状态下，除了声音和运动之外，别无他物。 在那种状态下，我能理解‘这个过去的整个重量’发生了什么吗？ 克：它很简单。我理解这个问题。这个过去在不断运作； 它记录每一个事件，每一个体验，包括有意的和无意的： 一切都在涌入，这声音，这所见。

P: The brain cells are acting independent of whether I am conscious or unconscious. K: Yes. Now when that brain is in operation, it is always acting from the past. First of all, what is wrong with it? P: If you observe it, it is like ripples being thrown up, thought as ripples, and suddenly I am attentive and there are no ripples. K: In that state of attention, there is perception. That state of attention is perception. D: When I see the fact that my brain is registering everything and I suddenly realize that it is going on without the observer, that annihilates me. If it goes on without me then I am finished.

普：脑细胞们正在行动，不论我是否意识到。 克：是的。现在，当大脑在运作时，它总是从过去开始行动。首先，这有什么问题？ 普：如果你观察它，它就像被激起的水波，思想如同波纹，突然我注意，波纹没了。 克：在这种注意的状态下，有感知。这种注意的状态就是感知。 德：当我看到我的大脑正在记录一切时 我突然意识到，在没有观察者的情况下，它正在发生，那就消灭了我。 如果它在没有我的情况下继续，那么，我就完结了。

K: It is like a recording machine that is registering everything: D: Why do I need to call it a machine? It is a wondrous thing. And I do not know the why and how of it. K: You have heard that noise of the horn blowing. The brain cells have registered it. There is no resistance or acceptance. D: There is more to it.

克：它就像一台记录机，正在记录一切： 德：为什么我需要称它为机器？它是一个奇妙的东西。我不知道它为什么以及为何这样做。 克：你听到了喇叭吹响的声音。 脑细胞已经记录了它。其中没有抵抗或接受。 德：它还做了更多。

K: Go slow: This brain is a machine which registers. It is a tape-recorder that is registering everything all the time. You come along and challenge the brain. It will respond in terms of like, of dislike, you are a danger and she is not a danger. In that instant is born the "me". It is the function of the brain to register: D: That is a partial statement. That it registers is a fact but there may be something more to it.

克：慢一点：这个大脑是一台记录的机器。 它是一个录像机，一直在记录所有内容。你过来，并挑战这颗大脑。 它会用喜欢、不喜欢来回应，你是一个危险，而她不是一个危险。在那一瞬间，“我”诞生了。 大脑的功能就是记录： 德：那是一部分的陈述。它记录是事实，但可能还有更多的东西。

K: You are jumping ahead. The function of the brain is to register, to record. Every experience, whether conscious or unconscious, every sound, word, every nuance, is going on irrespective of the thinker as a separate entity. Resisting that noise which is unpleasant, listening to some flattery, to some insult, wanting more or less - out of this registration emerges the "me".

克：你跳到前面去了。大脑的功能是注册，记录。 每一次体验，无论是有意的还是无意的， 每一个声音，每一个词，每一个细微差别，都在进行，而不受那位作为一个独立的实体的思想者的影响。 抵制那种令人不快的噪音，听某个奉承，某个侮辱，想要更多或更少 —— 从这本记录册中，出现了“我”。

P: When the registration takes place, I am conscious of the sound. K: Which is what? That it is pleasant or unpleasant. At the moment of experiencing, there is no "I" in it at all. P: There is a state with the sound and there is a state without the sound: K: Now comes the new action. I register that noise - the hideous noise, the ugly noise - there is no response to it. The moment there is response, that response is the "I". That response increases or decreases according to pleasure, pain, suffering. Now, "P"s question was how is that brain which is doing all this automatically, mechanically, all the time, how is that old brain whether it is running horizontally or in circles, how is that brain ever to see without the registerer or registration?

普：在记录的同时，我意识到这个声音。 克：是什么？那是愉快的或不愉快的。在体验的那一刻，里面根本没有“我”。 普：有声的状态，无声的状态： 克：现在，出现新的行为。我记录了那个噪音 —— 可怕的噪音，醜陋的噪音 —— 没有对它做出任何回应。 有回应的那一刻，那个回应就是“我”。 那种回应的强弱，根据快乐、痛苦、受苦而定。 现在，“普”的问题是，那个大脑是如何自动地、机械地、一直地做这一切。 那个旧大脑是水平跑、绕圈跑、还是在怎样运转， 没有这位记录者或记录本，大脑能看吗？

P: We have gone over this. I want to take it further from there. We listen. Sound passes through us. There is attention. In that state, for a second, horizontal movement has come to an end. What has happened to the old brain? K: But it is still there. P: What do you mean it is still there? K: Look at it. See what has happened. There is that child crying. The sound is being registered, the child's cry, why the mother does not look after it, all the rest of it.

普：我们已经讨论过了。我想从那里走得更远。 我们听。声音穿过我们。有注意。 在这种状态下，水平运动暂时结束了。旧大脑怎么了？ 克：它依然存在。 普：你的意思是它还在那里？ 克：你看。看发生了什么。那个孩子在哭。 声音被记录下来，孩子的哭声，母亲为什么不照顾它，等等。

P: Do you record all that? K: No. I am purely listening. There is complete listening. Now what happens in that listening? What has happened to the old brain in that listening? Have you understood the question? We are taking the journey together. (Pause) Let me put it differently. What is the essential need of a brain? (Pause) Must it not feel safe, secure, to function? One sees the brain needs security. Then some event happens and the brain sees the fact that to have presumed that there was security, comfort is not true.

普：你把那些都录下来了吗？ 克：没有。我只是在听。完全地听。 现在，听，在发生什么？旧大脑在发生什么？ 你理解这个问题吗？我们正在一起踏上旅程。（暂停） 让我换个说法。大脑的基本需求是什么？（暂停） 它难道不需要感到安全、有保障、以便于运作吗？ 一个人看到大脑需要安全。 然后，发生了某个事件，大脑看到这个事实：假设出来的安全感、舒适感是不真实的。

D: The brain cannot see it. F: We take the brain as an accumulation of impressions and storehouse of memories and so on, but the storehouse of memories is outside the brain and the brain is only a lens. P: Why do we not observe our own minds at this moment, instead of talking of the brain in the abstract? K: Listen - your brain demands security; it needs a great sense of protection, both physical and psychological. That is all I am saying. That is its function. That is the essential point.

德：这颗大脑看不见它。 莫：我们把大脑当作印象的积累和记忆的仓库等等， 但记忆的仓库在大脑之外，大脑只是一个镜头。 普：为什么我们此刻不观察自己的头脑，而是抽象地谈论大脑？ 克：听 —— 你的大脑需要安全；它需要身体和心理上的强烈保护感。 那就是我要说的全部内容。那是它的功能。那是关键点。

D: What is the basic query? P: The basic query is that when there is this horizontal movement of the mind as time, as memory, as brain cells operating, what is it that makes the "other" possible and what takes place when the "other" is? K: I will tell you. The brain cells need security, protection, safety to survive. They have survived for millions of years. Now what takes place? In order to survive, the brain cells say I must have nationalities, which brings disaster. So in its search for security, the mind is always experimenting and gets stuck - the guru, nationalism, socialism - it gets stuck and has to be rooted out. Because the basic thing is that it wants safety and survival and therefore it has invented a time sequence of survival - horizontal or circular. When the basic necessity is granted, what happens? Is the perception in terms of security not entirely different? D: It is the demand for security that resists the question you are asking.

德：基本的问题是什么？ 普：基本的问题是，当头脑有这种作为时间，作为记忆的水平运动时， 当脑细胞在这么运动时，是什么使“另一个”成为可能，当“另一个”存在时，又发生了什么？ 克：我会告诉你。脑细胞需要安全，保护，可靠，以便于存活。 它们已经存活了数百万年。现在，在发生什么？ 为了存活，脑细胞说我必须有国籍，这就带来了灾难。 因此，在寻求安全的过程中，大脑总是在实验并陷入困境。 —— 上师、民族主义、社会主义 —— 卡住了它，因而必须被根除。 因为最基本的东西是：它想要安全和存活 因此，它发明了一个存活的时间序列 —— 水平的或圆形的。 当基本必需品被保障时，在发生什么？ 对安全的这种感知是否完全变了？ 德：对安全的需求抵制了你所提出的问题。

K: No, I have got my security. So far for seventy years it has not been damaged because it says survival, not at the price of illusion. It says do not invent beliefs or ideas for in them there is no security at all. Wipe them out because they are illusory. Therefore it is completely secure; not in anything, but in itself it is secure. Before it sought security through something - through family, through god, egotism, competition, through seeking. Security through something is the greatest insecurity. It discards that. Therefore it can perceive. Because it has no illusions, motives, formulas, it can perceive. Because it does not seek any security, it is completely secure. The mind is then free of illusions; illusion not in the sense of Sankara, but just the illusion that I will find security in family, in God, in knowledge which is the past. Now what is there to perceive? "It" is perceiving.

克：不，我有我的安全。 到目前为止，七十年来，它还没有被损坏，因为它说存活，而不是以幻想为代价。 它说不要发明信仰或观念，因为在它们身上根本没有安全。消灭它们，因为它们是虚幻的。 因此，它是完全安全的；不在任何东西上，而是在它自身上，它就是安全。 以前，它在家庭、上帝、利己主义、竞争等等东西上寻求安全。 通过某个东西获得安全是最大的不安全。它丢弃了它。 因此它可以感知。因为它没有幻想、动机、公式，它可以感知。 因为它不寻求任何安全，所以它是彻底安全的。 这样，头脑就没有幻觉了； 幻觉不商羯罗所说的幻觉，而只是指： 我会在家庭、上帝、过去的知识中找到安全。 现在，什么在感知？‘它’在感知。

F: We are as we are made; we know we are at the mercy of the psychosomatic body and there we are very insecure. And there has to be a different approach to this. It is something very vulnerable because our bodies are so fragile. K: So I will protect the body. There is no egotism involved in it. F: Vulnerability is connected with ego. K: I will protect the body without the ego. I will wash it, look after it. We think we protect the body through the "I". Once we grant deeply the necessity for complete survival, for protection, for safety for the brain, we will solve all the other problems. Let us put it in this way: Is perception related to the brain cells which demand security, survival at any price?

莫：我们就像我们被造的一样；我们知道我们受到心身的摆布，在那里我们非常不安全。 对此必须采取不同的方法。它是非常脆弱的东西，因为我们的身体是如此地脆弱。 克：所以，我会保护这个身体。其中没有自我主义。 莫：脆弱与自我有关。 克：我会保护身体，没有自我。我会清洗它，照顾它。 我们认为我们通过“我”来保护身体。 一旦我们深入地認識到：完全的存活、保障、这颗大腦所求的安全的必要性， 我們就會解決所有其余的問題。 让我们这样说： 感知是否与不惜一切代价要求安全、存活的脑细胞们有关联？

P: My mind does not function in this way. Therefore I find it very difficult to listen. I am trying to work at a microscopic examination of the mind to see whether it is possible to arrive at a point when actually the brain cells cease functioning. Questions of security or of non-security have no relevance. At this moment if I raise these questions I am lost. Here I am before you and I want to understand this movement of time which is horizontal, to see whether there can be a state of the brain cells ceasing to function. Any queries, questions, answers, away from this will only lead to confusion.

普：我的头脑不是这样运作的。因此，我觉得很难去听。 我试图对头脑进行微观检查 看看是否有可能达到脑细胞真正停止运作的点。 安全或非安全问题无关紧要。 此刻，如果我提出这些问题，我就迷失了。 我在你面前，我想理解这种水平上的时间运动， 看看是否存在脑细胞停止运作的状态。 任何疑问，问题，答案，远离这一点只会导致混乱。

K: Are you saying, having finished with what we have said, my brain cells are in perpetual movement in one form or another? P: I say I am listening to you. There is no movement in my mind. K: Why? Because you are listening with attention, attention in which there is no centre to attend, a state in which you are just attending? P: Now I ask in that state, where is the weight of the past? I am asking that question to understand the problem of time, and not anything else. K: When you say I am attending, giving complete attention, is there time in that? P: Because there is no response, how do I measure?

克：你是在说，在结束我们所说的之后， 我的脑细胞们是以这样或那样的形式在不断运动吗？ 普：我说我在听你说话。我的脑海中没有任何动静。 克：为什么？因为你在聆听，带着关注， 其中不存在一个参与的中心，你只是在参与吗？ 普：现在，我问，在那种状态下，过去的重量在哪里？ 我问这个问题是为了理解时间问题，而不是别的什么。 克：你说我在参与，给予了完整的注意，在那种状态中，有时间吗？ 普：因为没有回应，我该如何衡量？

K: When there is attention, there is no time, because there is no movement at all. Movement means measurement, comparison; from here to there and so on. In attention there is no ripple, there is no centre, there is no measurement. The next question is, what has happened to the old brain? Keep it there. It is your question. What has happened? (Pause.) I have got it. What has happened? Attention is not disassociated from the brain. Attention is the whole body. The psychosomatic organism is attentive, which is also the brain cells. Therefore, the brain cells are exceedingly quiet, alive, not responding with the old. Otherwise you could not be attentive. There is the answer. And in that attention the brain can function. That attention is silence, is emptiness; call it what you like. Out of that silence, innocence, emptiness, the brain can operate; but not the thinker in terms of seeking security in something.

克：当存在注意时，就没有时间，因为根本没有运动。 运动意味着测量、比较；从这里到那里等等。 在注意中，没有涟漪，没有中心，没有测量。 下一个问题是，旧大脑发生了什么？把它留在那里。 这是你的问题。发生了什么？（暂停。） 我抓住了。发生了什么？ 这种注意并没有与大脑分离。注意就是整个身体。 身心有机体是细致的，微妙的，脑细胞也是。 因此，脑细胞们非常安静，活泼，没有旧的回应。 否则你不能处于微妙的状态。 这就是答案。在这种注意中，大脑能运转。 那个注意是寂静，是虚无；随心所欲地称呼它。 从那寂静、纯真、虚无中，大脑能运作； 而不是在某个东西中寻求安全感的思想者。

P: Does it mean the whole brain has undergone a transformation? K: No. What has taken place is mutation. The observer is not. P: But the brain cells are the same. K: Watch it. Do not put it that way; then you are lost. Watch it in yourself. Attention means complete attention - body, psyche, the cells; everything is there with life, alive. In that state, there is no centre, there is no time, there is no observer as the "me". There is no time in terms of the past but yet the past exists because I speak the language. I have to go to the room. Right? Then what happens to the brain cells? They are registering but there is no "me". Therefore the "me" which is part of the brain cells is wiped out.

普：它是否意味着整个大脑都发生了转变？ 克：不是。已经发生的是突变。观察者没了。 普：但是脑细胞们是一样的。 克：看。不要这样说；那样你就迷路了。你亲自去看。 关注意味着完全的注意 —— 身体、心灵、细胞们；一切都有生机，活泼。 在那种状态下，没有中心，没有时间，没有作为“我”的观察者。 就过去而言，没有时间，但过去是存在的，因为我说这种语言。 我得去这间房。对吗？ 那么，脑细胞在发生什么？他们正在记录，却没有“我”。 因此，作为脑细胞一部分的“我”，被消灭了。