We were walking in the open gardens near a huge hotel. There was a golden blue in the western sky and the noise of the buses, cars went by. There were young plants full of promise, watered daily. They were still building, creating the gardens and a bird was hovering in the sky, fluttering its wings rapidly before it plunged to the earth; and in the east, there was the nearing of the full moon. What was beautiful was none of these things but the vast emptiness that seemed to hold the earth. What was beautiful was the poor man with his head down, carrying a small bottle of oil.
我们在一家大酒店附近的开放式花园里散步。 西方的天空一片金蓝色，公交车的噪音，来往的汽车。 这里有生气的幼苗，被每天浇灌。 他们仍在建造，创造这个花园 一只鸟在天空中盘旋，飞快地扇动着翅膀，然后坠落到地上； 在东方，现出几乎完全的满月。 美丽的不是这些东西，而是似乎支撑着地球的广阔虚空。 美丽的是那个低着头，拿着一小瓶油的穷人。
K: What does sorrow mean in this country? How do the people in this country meet sorrow? Do they escape from sorrow through the explanation of karma? How does the mind in India operate when it meets sorrow? The Buddhist meets it in one way, the Christian in another way. How does the Hindu mind meet it? Does it resist sorrow, or escape from it? Or does the Hindu mind rationalize it? P: Are there really many ways of meeting sorrow? Sorrow is pain - the pain of someone dying, the pain of separation. Is it possible to meet this pain in various ways?
克：在这个国家，悲伤意味着什么？这个国家的人民如何面对悲伤？ 他们是否通过对业力的解释而逃离悲伤？ 在印度，这颗头脑在遇到悲伤时如何运作？ 佛教徒以一种方式面对它，基督徒以另一种方式迎接它。印度教徒的头脑如何面对它？ 它是抗拒悲伤，还是逃避悲伤？还是将其合理化？ 普：真的有很多种面对悲伤的方法吗？ 悲伤是痛苦 —— 一个人死去的痛苦，别离的痛苦。 有可能以各种方式应对这种痛苦吗？
K: There are various ways of escape but there is only one way of meeting sorrow. The escapes with which we are all familiar are really the ways of avoiding the greatness of sorrow. You see, we use explanations to meet sorrow but these explanations do not answer the question. The only way to meet sorrow is to be without any resistance, to be without any movement away from sorrow, outwardly or inwardly, to remain totally with sorrow, without wanting to go beyond it.
克：有各种逃避悲伤的方法，然而，面对悲伤却只有一种办法。 我们所熟知的逃避，恰好就是避免巨大的悲伤的方法。 你看，我们通过解释来面对悲伤，但这些解释没有回答这个问题。 面对悲伤的唯一办法是处于毫无抵抗的状态， 无论是从外在还是内心，与悲伤保持静止， 完全地与悲伤相处，不想离开它。
P: What is the nature of sorrow? K: There is personal sorrow, the sorrow that comes with the loss of someone you love, the loneliness, the separation, the anxiety for the other. With death there is also the feeling that the other has ceased to be, and there was so much that he wanted to do. All this is personal sorrow. Then there is that man, ill-clad, dirty, with his head down; he is ignorant, ignorant not merely of book knowledge, but deeply, really ignorant. The feeling that one has for the man is not self-pity, nor is there an identification with that man; it is not that you are placed in a better position than he is and so you feel pity for him, but there is within one the sense of the timeless weight of sorrow in man. This sorrow has nothing personal about it. It exists.
普：什么是悲伤的性质？ 克：有私人的悲伤，当你失去你的所爱之人，悲伤即至： 一种孤独，一场离别，一种因他人而引发的焦虑。 伴随着死亡，也有这样的感情：他不在了，他却还有那么多未了的心愿。 这一切，都是私人的悲伤。 那么，那个人，穿得破烂、脏兮兮的、低着脑袋； 他无知，不仅是对书本知识无知，而且是深层地、真正地无知。 一个人对那人怀有的感情既不是自怜，也不是对那个人的同情。 不是由于你比他的处境更好，因此而怜悯他， 而是在一个人的里面，感受到人的悲伤，一种亘古的沉重。 这种悲伤与私人无关。它只是存在着。
P: While you have been speaking, the movement of sorrow has been operating within me. There is no immediate cause for this sorrow but it seems like a shadow, always with man. He lives, he loves, he forms attachments and everything ends. Whatever the truth of what you say, in this there is such an infinitude of sorrow. How is it to end? There appears to be no answer. The other day you said in sorrow is the whole movement of passion. What does it mean?
普：在你说的时候，我内心一直有这种悲伤在跳动。 这种悲伤没有直接的原因，但它却像影子，总是陪伴着人。 他生活，他恋爱，他养成依恋，一切结束。 无论你所说的话有多么地真实，在这里，都有无限的悲伤。 怎么去结束它？看起来没有答案。 前几天，你说，在悲伤中，有一种激情的全部运动，是什么意思？
K: Is there a relationship between sorrow and passion? I wonder what sorrow is. Is there such a thing as sorrow without cause? We know the sorrow which is cause and effect. My son dies; in that is involved my identification with my son, my wanting him to be something which I am not, my seeking continuity through him; and when he dies all that is denied and I find myself completely emptied of all hope. In that there is self-pity, fear; in that there is pain which is the cause of sorrow. This is the lot of everyone. This is what we mean by sorrow.
克：悲伤和激情之间有关系吗？我想知道悲伤是什么。 有没有毫无缘由的悲伤？ 我们知道有作为因果的悲伤。 我的儿子死了；这涉及到我对儿子的认同， 我希望他完成我未了的心愿，我想通过他得以延续； 当他死去，那一切被拒绝了，我发现自己失去了一切希望。 在那种处境中，自怜、恐惧，有缘于悲伤的痛苦。 这就是每个人的宿命。这就是我们所说的悲伤。
Then also there is the sorrow of time, the sorrow of ignorance, not the ignorance of knowledge but the ignorance of one's own destructive conditioning; the sorrow of not knowing oneself; the sorrow of not knowing the beauty that lies at the depth of one's being and the going beyond. Do we see that when we escape from sorrow through various forms of explanation, we are really frittering away an extraordinary happening?
然后，还有时间的悲伤，无知的悲伤， 不是知识上的无知，而是不知道一个人所有的破坏性局限； 不知道自己的悲伤； 不知道存在于一个人生命深处的，并超越自身的美的悲伤。 我们是否看到： 当我们通过各种形式的解释逃离悲伤时， 我们正在糟蹋一个非凡的东西？
P: Then what does one do? K: You have not answered my question, "Is there, a sorrow without cause and effect?" We know sorrow and the movement away from sorrow. P: You have talked of sorrow free of cause and effect. Is there such a state? K: Man has lived with sorrow from immemorial times. He has never known how to deal with it. So he has either worshipped it or run away from it. They are both the same movement. My mind does not do either, nor does it use sorrow as a means of awakening. Then what takes place?
普：那怎么办？ 克：你没有回答我的问题，‘有没有毫无缘由的悲伤？’ 我们知道悲伤和远离悲伤的行为。 普：你讲过毫无缘由的悲伤。有这样的状态吗？ 克：人类自古以来就生活在悲伤中。他从来不知道该怎么处理。 所以他要么崇拜它，要么逃避它。它们都是同样的做法。 我的头脑不这样做，也不把悲伤作为觉醒的一种手段。然后，在发生什么？
P: All other things are the products of our senses. Sorrow is more than that. It is a movement of the heart. K: I am asking you what is the relationship between sorrow and love. P: They are both movements of the heart.
普：其余的一切都是我们感官的产物，悲伤则不止这些。它是心灵的一种运动。 克：我在问你，悲伤和爱是什么关系？ 普：它们都是心灵的运动。
K: What is love and what is sorrow? P: Both are movements of the heart, the one is identified as joy and the other as pain. K: Is love pleasure? Would you say joy and pleasure are the same? Without understanding the nature of pleasure, there is no depth to joy. You cannot invite joy. Joy happens. The happening can be turned into pleasure. When that pleasure is denied, there is the beginning of sorrow.
克：什么是爱？什么是悲伤？ 普：两者都是心灵的运动。其中一个被定义为喜悦，另一个则被定义为痛苦。 克：爱是快乐吗？你会说喜悦和快乐是一样的吗？ 不理解快乐的性质，就没有喜悦的深度。你无法邀请喜悦。喜悦自然而生。 发生的事情可以变成快乐。当这种快乐被剥夺时，悲伤就开始了。
P: At one level it is so, but it is not so at another level. K: As we said, joy is not a thing to be invited. It happens. Pleasure I can invite, pleasure I can pursue. If pleasure is love, then love can be cultivated. P: We know pleasure is not love. Pleasure may be one manifestation of love but it is not love. Both sorrow and love emerge from the same source.
普：在某个层面上是这样的，但在另一个层面上又不是这样。 克：正如我们所说，喜悦是不可邀约的。它自然地发生。 我可以邀请快乐，追求快乐。如果快乐是爱，那么爱就能被培育。 普：我们知道快乐不是爱。 快乐可能是爱的一种表现，但它不是爱。 悲伤和爱来自于同一个源头。
K: I asked what is the relationship between sorrow and love? Can there be love if there is sorrow - sorrow being all the things that we have talked about? P: I would say "yes". K: In sorrow, there is a factor of separation, of fragmentation. Is there not a great deal of self-pity in sorrow? What is the relationship of all this to love? Has love dependency? Has love the quality of the "me" and the "you"?
克：我问的是，悲伤和爱有什么关系？ 当悲伤存在，有爱吗？ —— 悲伤就是我们刚才所探讨的一切。 普：我会说‘有’。 克：在悲伤中，有一种分离因子，分裂因子。难道悲伤中没有大量的自怜吗？ 这一切与爱有什么关系？爱有依赖吗？爱有‘我’和‘你’的品质吗？
P: But you talked of passion...... K: When there is no movement of escape from sorrow then love is. Passion is the flame of sorrow and that flame can only be awakened when there is no escape, no resistance. Which means what? - Which means, sorrow has in it no quality of division.
普：但是你谈到了激情…… 克：当没有逃避悲伤的运动时，爱在。 激情是悲伤的火焰，只有当没有逃避，没有抵抗时，火焰才能被唤醒。 这意味着什么？—— 这意味着，悲伤没有分裂的品质。
P: In that sense, is that state of sorrow any different from the state of love? Sorrow is pain. You say when in that pain there is no resistance, no movement away from pain, the flame of passion emerges. Strangely in the ancient texts, kama (love), agni (fire), and yama (death) are said to be the same; they are placed on the same level; they are all identical; they create, purify and destroy to create again. There has to be an ending.
普：从这个意义上说，这种悲伤的状态与爱的状态有什么不同吗？悲伤就是痛苦。 你说，当在痛苦中没有抵抗，没有远离痛苦的运动时，激情的火焰就会出现。 奇怪的是，在古代文献中，据说kama（爱），烈火（火）和yama（死亡）是相同的。 它们被放在同一个平面上；它们都是相同的； 它们创造，净化，破坏以再次创造。一直在结束。
K: You see, that is just it. What is the relationship of a mind which has understood sorrow and therefore the ending of sorrow? What is the quality of the mind that is no longer afraid of ending, which is death? When energy is not dissipated through escape, then that energy becomes the flame of passion. Compassion means passion for all. Compassion is passion for all.
克：你看，就是这样。 一颗理解悲伤，从而结束悲伤的头脑是什么关系？ 不再害怕终结，也就是不怕死的头脑，具有什么品质？ 当能量没有通过逃逸而消散时，这种能量就会变成激情的火焰。 慈意味着对一切的激情。慈就是弥漫一切的激情。