A: After listening to yesterday's talk, I wonder what is meant by energy? We only know fragmentary energy. K: Would you put it differently? Would you say that all energy is fragmented? A: If I hear your talk and I look at all the fields of my activity, I seem to know nothing but fragmentary energy. K: That is energy which is fragmented.
阿：听了昨天的讲话，我想知道能量是什么意思？我们只知道零碎的能量。 克：你愿意换个说法吗？你是在说，所有的能量都是碎片化的吗？ 阿：如果我听了你的讲话，看看我活动的所有领域，我似乎只知道零碎的能量。 克：那是碎片化的能量。
A: In observation I see that I know only fragmented energy and I do not know what you are talking about. K: There is physical energy, intellectual energy, emotional energy, there is the energy of anger, of greed; they are all various forms of energy, like human energy and cosmic energy. They are all divided, but they are energy.
阿：在观察中，我看到我只知道零碎的能量，我不知道你在说什么。 克：有身体的能量、智力的能量、情感的能量， 还有愤怒的能量、贪婪的能量；它们是各种形式的能量，就像人类的能量和宇宙的能量一样。 它们都是分裂的，但它们是能量。
A: I listen to you, but I never seem to come upon what you say. K: Traditionally it has been said sexual energy must be controlled. A: Traditionalists hold that unless all dissipations of energy are halted, one will never know the "other". It does not seem to be that way. Between suppression and the negation you speak about, there is no relationship. The truth is I only know fragmented energy.
阿：我听你说话，可我似乎从来碰见你所说的东西。 克：传统上说必须控制性能量。 阿：传统主义者认为，除非停止所有能量的耗散，否则一个人永远不会知道“另一个”。 似乎不是那样。在压抑和你所说的否定之间，两者没有关系。 事实上，我只知道零碎的能量。
K: It may be the traditional approach that holds us to a particular pattern, to that energy which is fragmentary. A: It may be because every form of energy we know is destructive. Our intellectual energy creates systems and patterns; our emotional energy is reaction against individuals. K: Yesterday did the speaker not say that all energy springs from one source of energy?
克：可能是传统的方法将我们捆绑在一种特定的模式上，一种碎片化的能量。 阿：这可能是因为我们知道的每一种能量都是破坏性的。 我们的智力能量创造出系统和模式；我们的情感能量是对他人的情绪反应。 克：昨天，讲话人说过所有的能量都来自于一个源头吗？
A: What you are saying comes from a different source. And you say that the function of the intellect is to see that intellect itself is fragmentary and, therefore, it is inadequate. When the intellect sees its inadequacy, that is the highest truth the intellect can perceive. It is only when you come to this that there is the "other". All that we seem to know is the fragmentary, and you speak of something else.
阿：是的，你说来自于一个不同的源头。 你说智力的功能是看到智力本身是零碎的，因此，它是不足的。 当智力看到它的不足时，那就是智力所能感知到的最高真理。 只有当你到达这一步时，才会有“另一个”。 我们似乎只知道那零碎的，而你所说的是别的东西。
K: Then what will you do? How do you stop the fragmentation of energy? A: I would not say how, because that action itself is a becoming process. K: Then what will you do? How do the professionals, the traditionalists, approach this problem - the problem of various forms of energy contradicting each other and one form of energy assuming the dictatorship of the rest, trying to control, to suppress? Does this happen by introducing the atman?
克：那你会怎么做？你如何阻止能量的碎片化？ 阿：我不会说怎么做，因为行动本身就是一个成为的过程。 克：那你会怎么做？ 专业人士，传统主义者，如何处理这个问题？ —— 各种形式的能量相互冲撞，某种形式的能量自以为是其它能量的老大，试图去控制、压制。 这是出于‘真我’的引入而产生的吗？
A: It is shunyata, voidness. Having eliminated, this is a void. In the void is everything. Did you come to this spontaneously? K: What do the professionals say? A: Sankara says: "Acquire learning and the prestige that goes with it, so what? Acquire wealth and the power that goes with it, so what? Visit many countries, feed and entertain your friends, help the poor and the sick, bathe in the Ganga, give alms in vast quantities, repeat mantras by the million, etc., so what? All these are of no avail unless the Self is realized." And Sankara ends by saying that only he who discovers that all these forms of prestigious action are bereft of significance for self-knowledge, he alone is capable of self-realization.
阿：这是苏尼亚塔，虚无。消除之后，这是空无。 一切都在虚无中。你是自发到达的吗？ 克：专业人士怎么说？ 阿：商羯罗说:“获得学习和随之而来的声望，那又怎样？ 获得财富和随之而来的权力，那又怎样？ 访问许多国家，喂养和娱乐您的朋友，帮助穷人和病人， 沐浴恒河，大量施舍，重复百万次咒语等等，那又怎样？ 除非自我得到实现，否则所有这些都无济于事。” 商羯罗最后说，只有当他发现 对于自我认识而言，所有这些形式上的、有声望的行动都是无意义的， 他才能独立地自我实现。
K: I cannot imagine that this question has not been tackled by the professionals. A: They call it chitta and chaitanya. The common "root" is "chit". N: Chit is consciousness. A: Do they go into the fragmentary nature of the mind or do they say that the mind's activities are unreal? K: So, what is the question, what is it that we are trying to discuss, explore?
克：我无法想象这个问题没有被专业人士解决。 阿：他们叫它chitta和chitanya。共同的词根是‘chit’。 N：Chit就是意识。 阿：他们是进入到头脑的破碎性，还是说头脑的活动是不真实的？ 克：那么，问题是什么？我们试图讨论和探索的是什么？
A: We only know the various fragmented expressions of energy. Is it possible to see the entire field? Or is it a wrong question? K: If one fragment or many fragments exist, who is the entity that is going to observe the totality of energy? Are our minds so conditioned that we cannot break ourselves from the conditioning? A: We are so conditioned.
阿：我们只知道能量的各种碎片化。是否可以看到整个领域？还是它是一个错误的问题？ 克：如果存在一个碎片或多个碎片，那么谁来观察到能量的整体？ 我们的头脑是否被制约得无法摆脱这种制约？ 阿：我们是如此的受限。
R: The other day at the discussion you said that someone slaps me. I feel hurt, etc., but if attention is given at that moment, then I do not feel hurt. There is no recording of it. But the fact is, reaction is instantaneous. I react to that hurt instantaneously. How is it possible to give attention at that moment?
拉：前几天的讨论中，你说有人打了我一巴掌。我感受到伤害，等等， 但如果在那一刻给予关注，那么我就不会感到受伤。 没有关于它的记录。但事实是，反应是瞬间的。我一瞬间就对这种伤害做出了反应。 在那一刻，怎么可能给予关注？
K: What is the problem? I have been seeing only this fragment (pointing to a portion of the carpet) and you say this fragment would not exist if there was no total carpet. There is this little bit of carpet which is part of this whole carpet. I am saying in this fragment there are many other fragments.
克：问题出在哪里？我一直只看到这一块地毯（指向地毯的一部分） 你说如果没有完整的地毯，这一块就不会存在。 这一块地毯是整个地毯的一部分。 我要说的是，在这个片段中还有许多其它的片段。
My whole life has been spent in observing the fragment. You come along and say this is part of the whole, this would not exist if the other did not exist. But I cannot take my eyes off this fragment. I agree that this can only exist because of the whole carpet but I have never, never looked at the whole carpet. I have never moved away from this.
我的一生都在观察这块碎片。 你走过来，说这是整体的一部分，如果另一个不存在，这一块就不会存在。 但我无法将视线从这块碎片上移开。 我同意它的存在是因为有整块地毯，但我从来没有见过整块地毯。 我从未离开过这片区域。
This fragment exists because of the whole carpet. My attention has been fixed on this little bit of carpet. And I do not know how to remove my eyes and look at the whole carpet. If I can do that, there is no contradiction. If I can remove my eyes and look at the whole carpet, I see there is no contradiction, no duality. But if I say I must suppress the fragment in order to see the whole, there is duality.
这个碎片的存在是因为整个地毯。我的注意力一直集中在这一小块地毯上。 而且我不知道如何移开我的眼睛，去看整块地毯。 如果我能做到这一点，那就没有了矛盾。 如果我能移开眼睛，看看整个地毯，我发现没有矛盾，没有二元性。 但是，如果我说我必须压制碎片才能看到整体，那就是二元性。
R: It is intellectually clear. K: It is a very good exercise. Then what do you do? The intellect is also a part. It is one of the fragments within the carpet. I am still not looking at the carpet. If intellect sees, perception is back to the fragment. First, intellectually I have to understand what is being said. This is part of the whole. And as long as perception is focused on the fragment, there is no perception of the whole carpet. You say I understand this intellectually. So, you have already moved away. You also see that intellect is a fragment. You are looking at the whole with different parts. R: What is looking is also a fragment.
拉：理智上很清楚。 克：这是一个很好的练习。那你怎么办？ 智力也是一部分。它是地毯内的碎片之一。我仍然没有看地毯。 如果智力在看，感知就会回到这块碎片上。 首先，在理智上，我必须理解所说的内容。这是整体的一部分。 而且只要感知集中在这块碎片上，就没有对整个地毯的感知。 你说我在理智上理解这一点。所以，你已经偏离了。 你也看到智力是一个碎片。你正在用不同的部分看这个整体。 拉：在看的这个部分也是一个碎片。
K: Therefore, deny the fragment. (Pause) You see, we are used to reading in straight lines. Therefore, we are always thinking in straight lines. If we were used to reading, like the Chinese, vertically, then our whole thinking would be vertical. So thinking itself is a linear thinking. All that is a form of fragmentation. So, what is the question? Form your question. (Pause) Is there a perception which is not linear nor vertical, and, therefore, non-fragmentary?
克：因此，否定碎片。（暂停） 你看，我们习惯于现性阅读。因此，我们总是在直线上思考。 如果我们习惯于像中国人一样垂直阅读，那么我们的整个思维将是垂直的。 所以思考本身就是一种线性思维。所有这些都是一种分裂的形式。 那么，问题是什么呢？形成你的问题。（暂停） 是否存在一种感知，既不是线性的也不是垂直的，因此，不是零碎的？
How do you see something totally? What is the capacity of perception that sees the whole structure of human life, the whole field, at a glance? I think I see something. Look, there is the whole field of life, the physical, the emotional, the intellectual, the psychosomatic existence; and in that there are various contradictions - sorrows, anxieties, guilts, ambitions, humility, pride, sex, non-sex, God, no-God, communism - this is the whole fie1d of existence. Now, how does the mind see the whole of this field? If it does not see the whole field, but merely tackles one problem, it will create more mischief.
你如何完全看见某个东西？ 一目了然地看到人类生活的整个结构、整个领域的感知能力是什么？ 我想我看到某个东西。 看，整个生命的领域，身体的，情感的，智力的，身心的存在； 那里有各种矛盾 —— 悲伤、焦虑、内疚、野心、谦卑、骄傲、性、非性、上帝、无神论、共产主义 —— 这就是存在的全部领域。 现在，头脑如何看这整个领域？ 如果它没有看到整个领域，而只是解决一个问题，它将造成更多的灾难。
A: It comes to this, this whole process, the seventy-five thousand years of the history of man, the entire past produces this and dies. This is "what is", there is no going back. But even this is arrived at without any movement. K: First listen. There is this whole field of existence, all that we have described. There are other factors also. Now, how do I look at this whole map with all the little bridges, hamlets, towns, all that at one glance? I cannot go up in an aeroplane. The atman is the aeroplane invented by thought.
阿：它走到这一步，这整个过程，人类七万五千年的历史，这整个历程产生了这些，已成定局了。 这就是 ‘现下’，无法回头。但是甚至到了这种地步，也没有任何改变的动作。 克：先听。这就是整个存在，正如我们刚才所描述的。 这其中也有其他的因素。 现在，我们要如何一眼看到整张地图，包括其中所有的小桥、村落、城镇？ 我不能坐在飞机上看 —— 真我就是由思想发明的飞机。
You come and tell me, look, if you try to answer the whole of existence through one of the fragments, you will only create more confusion. Therefore you say, the whole of it. You say that and disappear. It is my job to find out. How do I set about it? I do not know what this total perception is. I see the beauty, logic, the sanity of it. I say, how am I to proceed? A: There is very great intensity, passion in this because I also feel this is the precipice. There is no sluggishness left. It is all there at this moment. K: You have this problem, this baby left in your lap. What are you going to do? You must answer. What is it that prevents total perception?
你走过来告訴我，看，如果你试图通过其中一个片段来回答整个存在，你只會製造更多的混亂。 所以你说，它的整个。你说了那，消失了。我的工作是找出答案。我该如何着手？ 我不知道这种完整的感知是什么。我看到了它的美丽、逻辑和理性。我说，我该怎么做？ 阿：这其中有非常大的强度和激情，因为我也觉得这是悬崖。 没有任何迟缓的余地。此时此刻，一切都在那里。 克：你拥有这个问题，这个孩子放在你的腿上。 你要做什么？你必须回答。是什么阻止了完整的感知？
A: I see intellectually that I cannot see the whole of it. K: Leave it there. What is it that prevents total perception of this vast complex, existence? Have you an answer? I have got it. Find out. (Pause) When I enter the room, one object catches my eye. The lovely bedspread, and I casually look at other things. I say that is rather beautiful, the colouring, the design and it gives great pleasure. So, what has happened? There is this whole field of existence. The eye catches the one thing. What is it that prevents the seeing of other things; that which makes other things shadowy, distant? Just listen.
阿：我在理智上看到我无法看到它的全部。 克：把它留在那里。是什么阻止了对这个巨大的、复杂的存在的完全感知？ 你有答案吗？我抓到了它。找出来。（暂停） 当我进入房间时，一个对象引起了我的注意。可爱的床单，我漫不经心地看着其他东西。 我说这是相当美丽的，颜色，设计，它给人极大的快乐。 那么，发生了什么？ 这里有整个存在的领域。眼睛抓住了一个东西。 是什么阻止它看到其他东西；使其他东西变得朦胧、遥远？ 听。
R: The observer. K: Go slow. That is beautiful but my observation of the other is still vague. This is clear. It watches this very clearly. The other is rather cloudy. Now, in this vast field of existence, I catch one thing and the rest recedes, becomes very vague. Why is it that one thing becomes important? Or why has perception focused on that? Why is the eye, why is perception attracted to this only? R: It is pleasant.
拉：观察者。 克：慢点。那是美丽的，但我对其余的观察仍然模糊不清。这一点很清楚。 它非常清楚地注视着这一点。而其余部分是相当模糊的。 现在，在这个广阔的存在领域里，我抓住了一个东西，其余的就退缩了，变得很模糊。 为什么那个东西变得重要？或者为什么感知会关注那一个点？ 为什么眼睛，为什么感知只被这个东西吸引？ 拉：它令人愉快。
K: Which means what? The element of pleasure. There is this whole field and one thing only attracts me. So what happens? I translate the whole of the field of existence into pleasure. I enter this room, I look at the bedspread and I say I like it and there it is. And there is this vast existence and in it, the one thing that attracts me is the maintenance of pleasure at any price.
克：这意味着什么？快乐的元素。 有整个领域，只有一个东西吸引我。那么发生了什么？ 我把整个存在领域转化为快乐。 我走进这个房间，看着床单，我说我喜欢它，它就在那里。 这个广阔的存在，在其中，吸引我的一个东西就是不惜一切代价维持快乐。
A: For most people life is painful. K: It is painful because we are thinking in terms of pleasure. Pleasure is the principle, is the factor which is preventing me from seeing the whole. A: I was investigating this morning. Sankara says fear of pain is the thorn in the bush.
阿：对大多数人来说，生活是痛苦的。 克：它是痛苦的，因为我们是在从快乐的角度思考。 快乐就是原则，就是阻止我看到整体的因素。 阿：我今天上午在调查。商羯罗说，“对痛苦的恐惧，如同灌木丛中的荆棘。”
K: I see this whole field of life only in terms of pursuing pleasure. I see the whole of this, with all the complexities, in terms of pleasure or wanting pleasure. Does that prevent total perception? R: It is very complex. Here is the fragment which is part of the whole. Then our attention is on this fragment. What is giving attention is a fragment. What is wanting pleasure out of this is a fragment. K: We have said all this.
克：我只从追求快乐的角度去看整个生活领域。 我看到这一切的全部，所有的复杂性，站在快乐或想要快乐的角度。 这会阻止完整的感知吗？ 拉：它很复杂。这是作为整体一部分的片段。然后我们的注意力就在这个片段上。 给予关注的是一个片段。想要从中获得快乐的是一个片段。 克：我们已经说过了。
R: So, pleasure is a fragment. K: No, no. I want pleasure throughout life. There is no other thing I want. Money, sex, position, prestige, god, virtue, ideas - this is understood - pleasure through everything.
拉：所以，快乐是一个片段。 克：不，不。 我想要一生的快乐。我不想要其它任何东西。 金钱、性、地位、声望、上帝、美德、理想 —— 这被理解 —— 通过一切去获取快乐。
And I do not see pleasure is the thorn. I do not see that. So, in perception there is one guiding factor, and if that is the guiding factor, how can I see the whole field which pleasure has brought about? I want pleasure; therefore, I create a society which will give me pleasure. My drive is pleasure. And that society has its morality, and that morality is always based on the principle of pleasure.
而我不认为快乐是荆棘。我没有看到那一点。 所以，在感知中，这里有一个向导因子， 如果有向导因子的指引，我怎么能看到快乐所带来的整个领域？ 我想要快乐；因此，我创造了一个能给我带来快乐的社会。我的动力是快乐。 社会有它的道德规范，而道德规范总是建立在快乐的原则之上。
How can the mind see the whole of the field when there is only the search for pleasure? What is the factor of pleasure? It must always be personal - it must be mine, not yours. I will sacrifice my pleasure for the greater pleasure in collective work, but it is still pleasure. Pleasure is always personal. So, look what I have done, life then becomes a movement of pleasure.
当只有对快乐的追求时，头脑怎么能看到整个领域？ 快乐的因素是什么？它必定永远是私人的 —— 它必须是我的，而不是你的。 我会牺牲我的快乐，换取集体工作更大的快乐，但这仍然是快乐。快乐永远是私人的。 所以，看看我做了什么，生命就变成了一种快乐的运动。
A: The validity of everything is pleasure. K: So, as long as the mind is pursuing pleasure as the "me", how can I see this whole thing? I must understand pleasure, not suppress it, not deny it. So, it is important to see the whole, not the particular and the particular must always exist when there is the pursuit of pleasure. And there must be understanding of pleasure, not the cutting it off by the intellect.
阿：一切事物的价值在于快乐。 克：因此，只要头脑像‘我’一样追求快乐，我怎么能看到这一切呢？ 我必须理解快乐，而不是压抑它，而不是拒绝它。 因此，重要的是看到整体，而不是个别，当追求快乐时，个别必定始终存在。 必须有对快乐的理解，而不是用智力把它切断。
A: It cannot be cut off. K: What man has done, what religions have taught is to cut off with the intellect. What tortures the saints go through, the burning, the mutilating. That is the traditional way. So, I see the central factor that when one thing becomes all-important, then I do not see the whole of life. Why is there this pursuit of pleasure? A: The pleasure principle is too strong. K: What do the professionals say about this pursuit of pleasure? A: They say that every pleasure leads to pain; man contemplates pain but it still leads to fragmentation. To concentrate on pain instead of pleasure is the same thing.
阿：它无法被切断。 克：人类所做的，宗教所教导的就是用智力来切断。 圣徒所经历的折磨，焚烧，肢解。这就是传统方式。 所以，我看到了一个核心因素，即当一个东西变得至关重要时，我就看不到整个生命。 为什么会有这种对快乐的追求？ 阿：快乐原则太强大了。 克：专业人士对这种对快乐的追求有什么看法？ 阿：他们说每种快乐都会导致痛苦；人沉思痛苦，但它仍然导致分裂。 专注于痛苦，以替代快乐，是一回事。
K: Why has man pursued pleasure at any cost? A: Biological needs are so deeply ingrained in us. K: There is nothing wrong in that - we need good, clean food. What is wrong with that? A clean floor to sleep on, what is wrong? But see what happens - I must have it tomorrow. That means today's biological need has been made into tomorrow's pleasure; which is, thought has taken over. So thinking is the factor one has to understand, not pleasure. A: We have come to see that pleasure is transferred in thought.
克：为什么人类不惜一切代价追求快乐？ 阿：因为我们的生理需求根深蒂固。 克：这没有什么错 —— 我们需要好的、干净的食物。这有什么问题？ 干净的地板，有什么错？但是，看发生什么 —— 我明天必须拥有它。 那意味着今天的生理需求已经变成了明天的快乐；也就是说，思想已经接管了。 因此，人必须理解‘思考’这一因素，而不是快乐。 阿：我们已经看到快乐被转移到思想。
K: Now you have got it. So, before you do anything with pleasure, understand thinking. Before you strengthen pleasure, before you nourish it, first find out what is thinking. A: The movement of thought as pleasure has to be understood. K: No, it is thought itself which sustains this. What shall I do with thinking? How do I stop thinking about sex or food, how? A: We started with energy. At this point it becomes fragmented. K: Thought in essence is the maker of fragments. Tradition has always talked of the suppression of thought. Act and forget it completely and do not carry it over.
克：现在你明白了。 因此，在你做任何与快乐有关的事情之前，先理解思考。 在你增强快乐之前，在你滋养它之前，首先找出什么是思考。 阿：作为‘快乐’的思想运动需要被理解。 克：不，是思想本身支撑着这一点。 我该怎么思考？我如何停止对性或食物的思考，如何？ 阿：我们从能量开始。到了这一点，它变得破碎。 克：思想在本质上是碎片的制造者。传统总是谈论对思想的压制。 行动并完全忘记它，不要把它带着。