A: You were saying the brain cells themselves are conditioned by the past, the biological and historical past, and you said the structure of the brain cells could change. Could we go into that? The brain cells seem to have an activity of their own? K: I was going to ask this morning whether the professionals have ever talked of the brain cells. R: The Indian philosophers do not mention the brain cells. K: Why? Is it because when they speak of the mind, they include the brain cells? A: They say the mind is matter. They do not go further.

阿：你是说脑细胞本身受制于过去，包括了身体上的和历史上的过去， 你说脑细胞的结构可能会改变。我们能谈谈吗？ 脑细胞们似乎有他们自己的活动？ 克：今天早上我正想问专业人士是否曾经谈论过脑细胞。 拉：印度哲学家没有提到脑细胞。 克：为什么？是因为当他们谈到头脑时，他们包括了脑细胞吗？ 阿：他们说头脑就是物质。他们没有进一步深入。

K: Everything is recorded in the brain cells. Every incident, every impression is imprinted in the brain; one can observe the vast number of impressions in oneself. You are asking how it is possible to go beyond, to make the brain cells quiet? A: Normally you would think that the brain would be an instrument of the intellect. K: But is not the intellect the instrument of the brain rather than the other way? A: Is it?

克：一切都记录在脑细胞中。 每一件事、每一个印象都刻在脑子里；一个人可以观察到自己身上的大量印象。 你问怎么才能超越，让脑细胞安静？ 阿：通常你会认为大脑是智力的工具。 克：但是智力难道不是大脑的工具而不是相反吗？ 阿：是吗？

K: Let us investigate it. The capacity to reason, to compare, to weigh, to judge, to understand, to investigate, to rationalize and to act is all part of memory. The intellect formulates ideas and from that there is action. A: The materialistic view is that thought is to the brain what bile is to the liver and that the phenomenal manifestation is the result of the movement of the non-phenomenal. What the traditionalists say is that at death there is the complete cessation of the brain, but the complete cessation of the brain leaves, in a subtle way, a residue. K: A thought?

克：让我们来调查一下。 推理、比较、权衡、判断、理解、调查、合理化和行动的能力都是记忆的一部分。 智力形成观念，从中就有行为。 阿：唯物主义的观点是 思想之于大脑就像胆汁之于肝脏，现象的显露是非现象运动的结果。 传统主义者说的是，在死亡中，大脑完全停止， 以一种微妙的方式留下了一个残余。 克：一个思想？

A: The residue exists independently of the brain which has become dead. Therefore, it creates another focus. Out of its activity, something new emerges. K: The brain cells are the repository of memory. The reaction of memory is thought. Thought can be independent of memory. It is like throwing a stone which is independent of the hand which throws it. Whether that thought incarnates is another matter. A: I have a mug full of water; I pour the water into the bucket and then I take out the water again. It is not the same water I threw in. It is much more than what I put in. K: This is fairly simple. What are you trying to say?

阿：残余物独立于已经死亡的大脑而存在。 因此，它创造了另一个焦点。从它的活动中，出现了一些新的东西。 克：脑细胞是记忆的储存库。 记忆的反应是思想。思想可以独立于记忆。 这就像扔一块石头，而石头与扔它的手无关。 那个思想是否会显化是另一回事。 阿：我有一个装满水的杯子；我把水倒进桶里，然后我又把水倒出来。 它不是我先前倒入的水。它比我先前倒入的要丰富。 克：这很简单。你想说什么？

R: The brain cells and their activity are not the ultimate source of all this false movement. A: You bring us to action. Now, we are all the time involved in activity. In discussing with you, we see activity leads to mischief. To see this is the beginning of action. Are we going to take it at the level of the brain cells or at the level of the residue; the residue which triggers the brain activity?

拉：脑细胞们以及他们的活动，并不是这一切荒谬运动的最终源头。 阿：您让我们采取行动。现在，我们一直在陷入活动。 在与您讨论时，我们看到活动会导致灾难。看到这一点是行动的开始。 我们要在哪个层面上采取行动？ —— 是在脑细胞，还是在触发大脑活动的残余物？

R: The traditional description is: I eat with my hands. There is a smell of food. I wash my hand, the odour remains. So the experience during life leaves a residue impression. The body dies but some kind of odour of experience remains which seeks more experience. A: You were saying the intellect itself is the result of the activity of the brain. But with the intellect I see what effect the accumulations of the past, as memory, have left on me. Even when the intellect sees this, the activity of the brain cells is in motion.

拉：传统的描述是: 我用手拿东西吃。手上有食物的味道。我洗手，气味留下来。 因此，生活中的经历给人留下了残余的印象。 身体死了，但某种体验的气味仍然存在，并寻求更多的体验。 阿：你刚才说智力本身是大脑活动的结果。 但凭借智力，我看到了过去的积累，也就是记忆，残留在我的身上。 即使智力看到这一点，脑细胞的活动也在运动。

K: Are you trying to say that the brain cells are receiving all the time; they are recording all the time, in the state of sleeping and in the state of waking. That recording is an independent movement. That independent movement creates the capacity to think, to rationalize. The intellect can then observe the operation of the movement of thought. It can observe how thought has created itself. And that is again part of the whole structure of the brain cells. What is the question?

克：你是想说脑细胞一直在接收吗？ 他们一直在记录，不论是处于睡眠状态或清醒状态。 这种记录是一个独立的运动。这种独立运动创造了思考和合理化的能力。 然后，智力可以观察思想运动的运作。它可以观察思想是如何创造它自己的。 而这也是脑细胞整个结构的一部分。问题是什么？

A: How is the structure of the brain cells to change? K: That is quite a different matter. The brain cells are recording all the time - perception, design, colour, everything is being registered. One element assumes a tremendous importance. And these brain cells, receiving impressions all the time, consciously or unconsciously, are building the capacity to think, to rationalize. The instrument of this rationalization is the intellect. The two are not separate. A: Without the intellect, would there be rationalization?

阿：脑细胞的结构是如何变化的？ 克：那是另一回事。 脑细胞一直在记录 —— 感受、样式、颜色，一切都在被记录。 一个元素具有极其重要的意义。 这些脑细胞，无时无刻不在有意或无意地接收印象，建立思考和合理化的能力。 这种合理化的工具是智力。两者并没有分开。 阿：没有智力，会有合理化吗？

A: The intellect itself can be aware of this. K: I do not know. I am asking. R: The intellect is a fragment. K: There is no freedom within the field. Therefore the intellect says there must be freedom outside the field. It is still rationalization, and therefore its search outside is still within the field. Then what is it that is aware of the whole field? Is it still rationalization? A: No.

阿：智力本身可以意识到这一点。 克：我不知道。我在问。 拉：智力是一个片段。 克：在这个领域内没有自由。因此，智力说领域之外必定有自由。 它仍然在合理化，因此它向外的探索仍在这个领域内。 那么，是什么意识到这整个领域？它依然是合理化吗？ 阿：不是。

K: Why not? Is it not still rationalization? It was said that the brain cells are the recording machine. They are recording everything. That record has created an instrument which is the capacity to investigate, to explore, to criticize, which you can call the intellect. Then the intellect seeks freedom outside itself. It sees that there can be no freedom within the field and that freedom is outside. So it thinks it moves outside the field of itself. After having stated that, what happens? It sees that whatever movement it makes is within the field. Whatever movement springs from it is within the field; extend the field horizontally or vertically but it is still within the field. Therefore it is always within a prison. The intellect sees that, observes that, explores that. You are now asking how the brain cells are to change? Proceed. This is the movement man has been caught in. And not knowing how to get out of it, he has invented the atman.

克：为什么不是？它不是合理化吗？它说：脑细胞是一台记录的机器。 他们正在记录一切。 这种记录创造了一种工具，它有调查、探索、批评的能力，你可以称之为智力。 然后智力在自身之外寻求自由。它看到这个领域内不可能有自由，自由在领域外。 所以它认为它超越了自己的领域。 说完之后，发生了什么？它看到它所做的任何运动都在这个领域。 无论从哪里产生什么样运动，都在这片区域； 水平或垂直扩张这片区域，但仍在区域内。 因此，它总是在监狱里。 智力看到它，观察它，探索它。 你现在问脑细胞将如何变化？ 前进。正是这种运动使人类沦陷。 不知道如何摆脱它，他发明了‘阿特曼’——真我。

A: The Buddhists say this process which has come into existence with a cause, has an end and the perception of it is a dead-end. Buddhism maintains that the perception of the dead-end (they use the word pudgala) is to see, that in this there is no permanency, and that rebirth is the rebirth of the ignorance of this process. So when you observe this process as impermanent, then it must create absolutely no attachment to this process. All that is given to you is to see the impermanence, and seeing this, there is no attachment to this: and this is the dead-end. Contemplate this. The Buddha saw only once - disease, old age and death. Seeing it once, he never turned back. The boy Krishnamurti also never looked back. The Buddha said, see the impermanency of it, in that, there is no effort at all. Krishnamurti says just "see".

阿：佛教徒说这种伴随着原因而形成的过程是有尽头的，它的感知就是尽头。 他们坚称: 对这个尽头的感知（他们使用pudgala这个词）就是看， 其中不存在永恒，而转世重生是对这个过程无知的产物。 因此，当你观察这个无常的过程，那么，与这个过程不相干的、独立的创造。 能提供给你的一切，就是去看这个无常，看到这，对这没有执着：就是尽头。 斟酌这个。 佛陀自己只看了一眼 —— 疾病、衰老和死亡。看一眼，他就再也没有回头。 这个男孩，克里希那穆提也再没有回头。 佛陀说，看它的无常，在那看之中，根本没有努力。克里希那穆提说只是‘看’。

K: Then what is the question? How are these recording instruments with their own capacity, their own movements, how are they to switch off and enter a different dimension, even for a short period? You cannot go back to the Upanishads. In that is authority. A: We come to the point where the intellect realizes that whatever it does is within the field and therefore, what?

克：那么，问题是什么？ 这些记录工具如何拥有他们的能力，他们的运动， 他们如何切断并进入不同的维度，即使是短时期内？ 你不能回到《奥义书》中。那里有权威。 阿：我们到了这样的地步，智力意识到它所做的一切都在这个领域内，因此，什么？

K: You see, the dead-end man has said that and stops there. But another dead-end man says I must have something more; and so the atman comes in. A: The Buddhists said there is no soul. That which putrefies will end. It will terminate. Do not get attached. That is all that you can do. It leads to the void, or shunyata. R: The Vedantins also said the same thing. A: They invented maya. It absorbed the whole of their reasoning.

克：你看，那个走到尽头的人这么说了，就停在那里， 但是另一个人在尽头说，我必须拥有更多的东西；于是阿特曼进来了。 阿：佛教徒说没有灵魂。腐烂的将会终结，它会终止。不要依恋。 那就是你能做的。它通向空无，或虚无。 拉：吠檀多人也说过同样的话。 阿：他们发明了玛雅（魔幻）。它吸收了他们的全部推理。

K: The distinction between the two is non-existent. The intellect itself says, this movement is within this field. Is there any other movement? It does not say there is or there is not. It cannot rationalize, because if it says there is, it is back in the same field - the positive or negative. The question then is, is there a movement other than this movement? Otherwise there is no freedom. A thing that functions from a centre within its own radius, however wide, is never free. (Pause) What is freedom?

克：两者（指虚无和魔幻）之间没什么区别。 智力自己说，这个运动就在这个领域内。还有其他运动吗？它没有说有或没有。 它不能合理化，因为如果它说有，它又回到了同一个领域 —— 这种积极的或消极的。 那么问题来了，除了这个运动之外，还有别的运动吗？否则就没有自由。 一个在它自己的半径内从一个中心运作的东西，无论多么宽广，都永远不是自由的。（暂停） 什么是自由？

A: When it asks is there another movement, I cannot know. K: I know this is prison. I do not know what freedom is. A: You have taken away one confusion, that all is maya. Tradition has made that a conclusion. K: My question is, is there freedom at all? Tradition would say yes, there is moksha. It is all immature. A: Faced with this question, I have absolutely no instrument now to deal with this. K: No, you have the instrument of rationalization, the intellect. Is there no validity in this enquiry? I am asking, if there is no freedom within this field, then what is freedom?

阿：当它问是否有其他的运动时，我无法知道。 克：我知道这是监狱。我不知道什么是自由。 阿：你消除了一个困惑，那就是一切都是玛雅。传统已经得出了这个结论。 克：我的问题是，有自由吗？传统会说是的，有莫克沙（从轮回中解脱）。这一切都是不成熟的。 阿：面对这个问题，我现在完全没有处理这个问题的工具。 克：不，你有合理化的工具，这个智力。在这个调查中，是否有效？ 我在问，如果这个领域没有自由，那么什么是自由？

A: To pursue this requires ruthlessness. K: Do not use the word ruthlessness. It requires tremendous delicacy. When I said I really do not know, I really do not know. Full stop. See what it does. It means a real humility, a sense of austerity. Then, yesterday has ended. So the man who has ended yesterday is really beginning again. Therefore he has to be austere. I really do not know; what a marvellous thing that is. I do not know if I may die tomorrow. Therefore there is no possibility of having any conclusion at any time, which means, never to have any burden. The burden is the knowing.

阿：要追踪这些，需要无情。 克：不要用‘无情’这个词。它需要极大的细致。 当我说我真的不知道时，我真的不知道。句点。看看它有什么作用。 它意味着一种真正的谦卑，一种朴素的感觉。然后，昨天被结束了。 所以结束昨天的那个人，真实地重新开始。因此，他必须朴素。 我真的不知道；那是一件多么了不起的事情。我不知道我明天会不会死。 因此，在任何时候都不可能有任何结论，这意味着永远不要有任何包袱。这个包袱是认识。

A: Can one come to this point and stay there? K: You do not have to stay. A: The mind has a way of switching back. Words take you only to a point. There is no room for switching back.

阿：一个人可以走到这一步并留在那里吗？ 克：你不必留下来。 阿：这颗头脑有办法切换回来。言语只能带你到一个点。没有切换回来的余地。

K: Go slow. Do not put it that way. We see this. We see the man who speaks of detachment, we see the man who invents the atman. We come along and say, look, both are wrong. In this field there is no freedom. Then we ask, is there freedom at all? I say I really do not know. It does not mean I have forgotten the past. In the "I do not know" there is no inclusion of the past nor a discarding of the past, nor a utilization of the past. All that it says is, in the past there is no freedom. The past is knowledge, the past is accumulation, the past is the intellect. In that there is no freedom. In asking is there freedom at all, man says "I really do not know". He is free of the known.

克：慢慢来。不要这样说。我们看到了这一点。 我们看到那个谈论解脱的人，我们看到那位发明真我的人。 我们走过来说，看，两位都错了。在这个领域没有自由。 然后我们问，究竟有没有自由？我说我真的不知道。 这并不意味着我已经忘记了这个过去。 在“我不知道”中，既没有包含过去，也没有抛弃过去，也没有利用过去。 它所说的只是：在这个过去里，没有自由。 这个过去就是知识，是积累，是智力。 那里没有自由。 在问到底有没有自由的时候，人说“我真的不知道”。他从已知中解放了。

R: But the structure of the brain cells remains. K: They become extraordinarily flexible. Being flexible they can reject, accept; there is movement. A: We see something as action. So far we only know activity. We can never reject activity. It goes on. In laying down bare activity, it ceases to be a barrier to action. The normal day to day living is a process which goes on.

拉：但是，脑细胞的结构依旧。 克：它们变得非常灵活。处于灵活状态，他们可以拒绝，可以接受；他们在动。 阿：我们把某个东西看作是行动。到目前为止，我们只知道活动。 我们永远不能拒绝活动。它在持续。在顺从赤裸裸的活动时，它不再是行动的障碍。 普通的日常生活是一个持续的过程。

K: Are you asking what is action? What is action to a man who does not know? The man who knows is acting from knowledge and his action, his activity is always within the prison, projecting that prison into the future. It is always within the field of the known. What is action to the man who says I do not know? He does not even ask, because he is acting.

克：你在问‘什么是行动’吗？对于一个不知道的人来说，什么是行动？ 知道的人是根据知识和他的行为去行动，他的活动总是在监狱里，把监狱投射到未来。 它总是在已知的领域内。 对那个说我不知道的人来说，行动是什么？他甚至不问，因为他行动。

You are missing something, which is, not to know whether tomorrow is there. Can you go into that? I will have my meal in the afternoon, I will go for a walk; apart from that all action to a man who knows is total inaction; his action is always mischievous. The activist is always committed, involved. You see action is relationship in the field of the known. It is there in detachment, in attachment, in dominance, in subservience. Life is relationship. Have the professionals talked about relationship?

你错过了一些东西，那就是，不知道明天是否在那里。你能说说吗？ 我下午吃饭，我去散步；除此之外，对一个知道的人来说，所有的行为都是完全的无所作为； 他的行为总是有害的。活动家总是在承诺，参与。 你看，行为就是已知领域内的关系。 它就在解脱、依恋、支配、屈从等等的关系之中。 生命就是关系。专业人士谈过关系吗？

R: No. K: To them relationship meant attachment and therefore they talked of detachment. But I have to live in this world. Even in the Himalayas, I need food. There is relationship. That may be the reason why the whole Indian movement of detachment has made the mind so stupid, repetitive. A: The Buddha in his first sermon said that both detachment and attachment are ignoble. The two represented the Hindu idea of running away from the world. K: Why did they not consider relationship? When the sannyasi renounces the world he cannot renounce relationship. He may not sleep with a woman but he cannot renounce relationship. I am asking myself, if you deny relationship, action becomes meaningless. What is action without relationship? Is it doing something mechanical? A: Action is relationship.

阿：没有。 克：对他们来说，关系意味着依恋，因此他们谈论解脱。 但我必须活在这个世界上。即使在喜马拉雅山，我也需要食物。这就有关系。 这也许就是为什么整个印度人的解脱运动使头脑变得如此愚蠢、重复化的原因。 阿：佛陀在他第一次布道时说：解脱和依恋都是可耻的。 两者都代表了印度教逃离世俗的观念。 克：为什么他们不考虑关系？当僧人弃世修行时，他不能放弃关系。 他可能不会和一个女人睡觉，但他不能放弃关系。 我在问我自己，如果你拒绝关系，行动就变得毫无意义。 什么是没有关系的行为？它在做一些机械化的事情吗？ 阿：行为就是关系。

K: Relationship is the primary thing. Otherwise what exists? If my father did not sleep with my mother, I would not exist. So relationship is the basic movement of life. Relationship within the field of knowledge is deadly, destructive, corrupt. That is the worldly. So, what is action? We have separated action from relationships: as social action, political action, you follow? We have not solved this problem of relationship. We discard it because it is too deadly to discuss relationship, because I know I have a wife and something may happen. So I do not want to discuss it. All that I say is I must be detached. If you accept all living is relationship, then what is action? There is one kind of action of technology, of mechanical action, but every other action is non-mechanical. Otherwise I reduce relationship into turning the wheel. That is why we have denied love.

克：关系是首要的。否则存在什么？ 如果我的父亲不和我母亲睡觉，我就不会存在。所以关系是生命的基本运动。 知识领域内的关系是致命的、破坏性的、腐败的。那是世俗的。 那么，什么是行动？我们已经把行动与关系分裂了：分成了社会行动，政治行动，你跟上了吗？ 我们还没有解决这个关系问题。 我们丢弃它，因为它太致命了，以至于无法讨论， 因为我知道我有一个妻子，可能会发生一些事情。 所以我不想讨论它。我能说的只有‘我必须解脱’。 如果你接受所有的生活都是关系，那么，什么是行动？ 有一种技术性的行动，机械化的行动，但其余一切行动都是非机械的。 否则，我会把关系简化为‘转动这个轮子’。 这就是为什么我们拒绝了爱。

A: Can we examine our relationship with nature? K: What is my relationship with nature - the birds, sky, trees, flowers, the moving waters? That is my life. It is not just relationship between man and woman, but al1 this is part of my life. I am talking of relationship to everything. How can I be attached to the forest, to the river? I can be attached to the word, but not to the waters. You see, we miss the whole thing because we confuse the word with the thing.

阿：我们能审视我们与自然的关系吗？ 克：我与大自然 —— 鸟儿、天空、树木、花朵、流动的水，有什么关系？那就是我的生命。 它不仅仅是男人和女人之间的关系，所有这一切是我生命的一部分。 我说的是与一切事物的关系。我怎样才能依附于森林，依附于河流？ 我可以依附于这个词，但不能依附于水。 你看，我们错过了这整个东西，因为我们把这个词和这个东西混为一谈了。

A: Is it a question of re-awakening sensitivity? K: No. The is what is relationship? Be related to everything. Relationship means care; care means attention; attention means love. That is why relationship is the basis of everything. If you miss that, you miss the whole thing. Yes, Sir, this is the prison. To know is the prison and to live in the knowing is also the prison.

阿：是重新唤醒敏感度的问题吗？ 克：不是。什么是关系？与一切关联。 关系意味着关怀；关怀意味着关注；关注意味着爱。 这就是为什么关系是一切的基础。如果你错过了，你就错过了整个东西。 是的，先生，这就是监狱。知道是监狱，活在认识之中也是监狱。