A: I think we should go into the question of perception of beauty. You said the other day that the tradition had ignored the field of beauty. We need to explore into this. K: So what is the question? What is beauty? You mean perception and then beauty? Surely it is not perception and beauty, but perception. What would be the traditional approach to this?
阿：我认为我们应该谈谈对美的感知问题。 前几天，你说传统忽视了美。我们需要对此进行探索。 克：那么问题是什么呢？什么是美？你是说感知，然后是美？ 当然，它不是感知和美，而是感知。关于美，传统的处理方法是什么？
R: One source of tradition maintains that beauty is the sense of happiness which comes when there is the ending of desire or thirst for experience. K: Is this a theory or a reality? R: The writer expressed what he felt; after all, he wrote a long time ago and only fragments of his writings remain. A: Kalidasa says that the experience of beauty is new every moment. R: Both in India and Greece there was this feeling that ultimate perceptions are perceptions of beauty, truth and goodness.
拉：传统上的一种说法坚持认为， 当欲望或对体验的渴望结束时，出现幸福感，那就是美。 克：这是理论还是现实？ 拉：作者表达了他的感受；毕竟，他的作品是很久以前写的，现在只剩下一些片段了。 阿：卡利达萨说，美的体验每时每刻都是新的。 拉；在印度和希腊，都有这样一种感觉: 终极的感知是对美、真和善的感知。
K: Are we discussing beauty or perception? We will discuss perception. What is the traditional approach to perception? R: They talk about it at length and there are many contradictory viewpoints. A: Perception is 'pratyaksham', perception is seeing the self-nature of things, the essential quality of things. K: Seeing the essence of something is perception, is that it? I am talking not of what you see but the act of seeing. Do they talk about the act of seeing and not what is seen?
克：我们是在讨论美还是感知？我们将讨论感知。传统的感知方法是什么？ 拉：他们详细地谈论了这个问题，有很多相互矛盾的观点。 阿：感知是“般若”，感知是看见事物的自然性质，是事物的基本品质。 克：看到事物的本质就是感知，是吗？ 我说的不是你所看到的，而是这种看的行为。 他们谈论的是‘看’的动作，而不是看到的东西吗？
R: They talk of what is valid knowledge and what is not valid knowledge. K: Seeing is one thing and seeing something is another. Which is it they are talking about? Seeing per se or seeing something, which is it? A: I think seeing. They are concerned with the constant danger of seeing wrongly. K: No. We are not talking of seeing rightly or wrongly, but what is perception; not what you see - the chair, the rope, the snake,
拉：他们谈论的是，什么是有效的知识，什么是无效的知识。 克：看是一回事，看到的东西是另一回事。 他们在谈论哪个？看，还是看到的东西？是哪一个？ 阿：我认为是‘看’。他们担心的是‘错误地看’所产生的持续性的危险。 克：不。我们不是在谈论正确或错误地‘看’，而是在谈论什么是感知； 不是您所看到的 —— 椅子、绳子、蛇、
A: Is there a difference between seeing and knowing? K: Seeing, knowing and seeing the object; seeing through knowledge the object, the image, the symbol; and seeing - these are entirely different. What do they say about seeing? R: They do not discuss it this way.
阿：‘看’和‘知道’有区别吗？ 克：看，知道和看见这个对象； 通过知识来看对象，这个形象，这种符号；以及看 —— 是完全不同的。 关于看，他们怎么说？ 拉：他们没有以这种方式讨论过。
K: Like hunger is in itself: it is not related to food. You have food because you are hungry, but the nature of hunger is hunger. What is seeing, perceiving to you? Not seeing the object, but the quality of the mind that perceives? Seeing the object with the eyes is one thing, seeing with knowledge is another. I am talking about seeing in itself. Is there a seeing without knowledge, without the object? I see that cupboard. Seeing that is with word and knowledge, the word being associated with the cupboard. Is there a seeing without the image, without the object? Seeing the object through knowledge, through image, symbol, the word, the intellect; and seeing without knowledge and image, a seeing without object.
克：就像饥饿本身一样：它与食物无关。 你拿食物是因为你饿了，但饥饿的性质是饥饿。 对你来说，什么是看，感知？ 不是看这个对象，而是在感知的头脑的品质？ 用眼睛看对象是一回事，用知识看是另一回事。 我在说看本身。存在着没有知识，没有对象的看吗？ 我看到那个碗柜。在看的时候，携带着与碗柜相联系的词语和知识。 存在着没有形象，没有对象的看吗？ 通过知识，通过形象，符号，文字，智力来看对象； 没有知识和形象的看，没有对象的看。
A: What is seeing without object? One can see without knowledge. As you say, there is a cupboard without the image but still we know it is a cupboard, which means it is an object. K: There is the little bush, and whether I see it or not, it will grow into a tree. It is independent of my seeing. I can call it mango and, therefore, associate it with the species mango, and the mango will grow even if I do not see it. R: The existence of it has nothing to do with seeing...... A: The object exists without our seeing, but such a perception may exist without the object. K: That tree continues to exist.
阿：什么是没有对象的看？一个人能够不带着知识去看。 正如你所说，那儿有一个碗柜。即使我们没有关于碗柜的形象，它也在那里。那意味着它是一个客观的对象。 克：这是一颗小树苗，不管我看不看，它都会长成一棵树。它独立于我的看。 我可以称它为芒果，因此，将它与芒果这个物种联系起来，即使我不看它，这颗芒果树也会生长。 拉：它的存在与看无关…… 阿：没有我们的看，那个对象依然存在；但是没有那个对象，也可能有这种感知。 克：那棵树一直存在。
A: In the Buddhist meditation they have referred to sky when they ta1k about perception without object. The sky is an object and yet not an object. K: The dictionary meaning of the word "perception" is to become aware of, to apprehend. That is, you see the cupboard, you have a preconception of it; that is not perception. Is there seeing without preconception? Only the mind that has no conclusion, such a mind can see. The other cannot. If I have previous knowledge of that cupboard, the mind identifies it as cupboard. To look at that cupboard without the previous accumulation of prejudices or hurts, is to look. If I have previous hurts, memories, pain, pleasure, displeasure, I have not looked.
阿：在佛教徒的打坐中，当他们谈到与对象无关的感知时，他们指的是天空。 天空是一个对象，又不是一个对象。 克：在字典中，‘感知’这个词的含义是‘觉察，捕捉’。 也就是说，你看到碗柜，你事先对它有一个成见；那不是感知。 存在着没有成见的看吗？唯有那颗没有结论的头脑，这样的头脑才能看。别的不能。 如果我有关于那个碗柜的、以前的知识，这颗头脑就会把它识别为碗柜。 去看那个碗柜而没有以前积累的偏见或伤害，就是看。 如果我有以前的伤害，记忆，痛苦，快乐，不快乐，我就没有看。
Is there a looking without object, without the knowledge of the object? Of course, there is. Can you look at that tree, without the knowledge of the bush, the image, the symbol, and all the rest of it? Just look. Someone came to see me. He was a movie director. He had taken LSD, and they had tape recorded it. He was sitting back in a chair and waited for the effect. Nothing happened. He waited and moved his position a little. Immediately the space between him and the object disappeared. The observer before had space between himself and the thing he observed, which happened to be a flower. The moment space disappeared, it was not the flower, it was something extraordinary. That was an effect of the drug. But here it is different. The space between the observer and observed is not; the observer is the holder of the knowledge and it is knowledge that recognizes the cupboard. It is the observer who sees the cupboard.
存在着没有对象，没有相知识识的看吗？当然有。 在没有关于灌木的知识、没有形象、符号和所有其他的东西的情况下，你能看那棵树吗？只是看。 有人来看我。他是一名电影导演。他服用了LSD，他们用磁带记录了下来。 他坐回椅子上，等待着效果。什么也没发生。 他等了一会儿，稍微移动了一下他的位置。突然间，他和对象之间的空间立刻消失了。 之前的观察者在他和他所观察的东西之间有空间，这东西恰好是一朵花。 空间消失的那一刻，它不是这朵花，而是某个非凡的东西。 那是药物的效果。但这里不同。 观察者和被观察者之间的空间没有； 观察者是知识的持有者，是知识认出了这个碗柜。 而看到碗柜的，是观察者。
First see what happens. The observer with his knowledge recognizes the cupboard. Recognition implies previous knowledge. So the observer is knowledge as the past. Now we are asking, is there perception without the observer, that is knowledge, which is the past? Perception for itself, not for or about something.
首先看看发生了什么。具有知识的观察者认出了橱柜。认识意味着先前的知识。 所以观察者就是知识，也就是过去。 现在我们问，存在着没有观察者的感知吗？ 感知本身，而不是为了某个东西或关于某个东西。
R: If the knowledge of the past is not there, the observer is not there. If the observer is not there, knowledge of the past is not there. K: Therefore, it is possib1e to see without the observer. I am saying "possible". The possibility becomes a theory, therefore we should not deal with theories but see that the observer is the residue of the past. So the observer cannot possibly see. He can see only through the screen of the past. Therefore, his seeing is partial. If there is to be perception, the observer must not be there. Is that possible?
拉：如果过去的知识不存在，那么观察者就不存在。 如果观察者不在，那么过去的知识也不存在。 克：因此，有可能在没有观察者的情况下看。我说的是“可能”。 可能性成为了一种理论， 因此，我们不应该处理理论，而是看到观察者就是过去的残余。 所以观察者不可能看到。他只能透过过去的屏幕看到。 因此，他的看是片面的。如果要有感知，观察者就不能在那里。那可能吗？
R: What happens to an artist? He perceives obviously with a perception which is not the ordinary perception which we have. K: Now wait a minute. Is perception intellectual? R: No, the intellect is the past. K: Therefore, it is not the seeing of an artist or the non-artist, but the seeing without the past. That is really the problem. The artist may see for a moment without the past but he translates it.
拉：艺术家会怎样？他显然不是以一种普通的知觉在感知。 克：等一下，感知是智力上的吗? 拉：不，智力是过去。 克：因此，不是艺术家或非艺术家的看，而是没有过去的看。 这才是真正的问题所在。艺术家可能会没有过去的看一会儿，但他翻译它。
R.: It is a momentary perception. K: Is there an act of perception, without the observer? Act means immediate action, not a continuous action? And the word itself, "act", means doing, not having done or will do. So, perception is an action, not in terms of knowledge; not the action of the actor with his knowledge. So the professionals are not concerned with action, are they? They are concerned with knowledge and action. Is that right? R: I do not know. There are some texts in which they have said that the perception of beauty is that moment when time, name, form and space do not exist.
拉：那是一种短暂的感知。 克：没有观察者，有感知行动吗？行动意味着即刻的行为，而不是持续的行为。 这个词本身，‘行动’，意味着做，不是做了或将要做。 因此，感知是一种行为，不是知识，不是演员根据剧本知识而做出的那种行为。 拉：我不知道。在一些文献中，他们说 对美的感知是时间、名称、形式和空间不存在的那一刻。
K: We are not talking of beauty. Perception implies action. I know what action is when the observer acts. The observer, having learnt a particular language or technology, having acquired knowledge, acts. A: Does perception mean direct contact between organ and object, between the sense-organ and object? R: Traditionalists talk about mediate and immediate perception. Mediate perception is through the instrument, through a medium, whereas immediate perception does not require the sense-organ with which to see. Perhaps immediate perception is nearer to what you are talking about. K: You see the perception of knowledge and action, is action from the past. That is one thing. Perception, action is another. A: Perception itself is action, so there is no time.
克：我们不是在谈论美。感知意味着行动。 我知道观察者在行动的那种行为。 这位观察者，学会了特定的语言或技术，获得了知识，在行动。 阿：感知是否意味着感官与对象之间的直接接触？ 拉：传统主义者谈论间接感知和直接感知。 间接感知通过工具或媒介，而直接感知则不用感官。 也许直接感知更接近你所说的。 克：你看，通过知识而感知并行动，是一种源于过去的行动，这是一种。 感知，行动，这是另一种。 阿：感知本身就是行动，所以没有时间。
K: The time interval comes to an end between action and knowledge, knowledge as the observer. That knowledge and action is time-binding and the other is not. So this is clear. Then what is beauty in relation to perception? R: It is the ending of the desire for experience. This is what the traditionalists. K: The seeing of goodness, beauty, love, truth, put all that aside. Now what is beauty? What is necessary for the perceiving of beauty? R: It is not mere perception, because perception can be of everything, even of that which is not beautiful.
克：在行动和知识之间的时间间隔走到了尽头 —— 这里的知识，就是指观察者。 知识和行动并绑定在时间上，而另一种则没有。 所以看清这。那么，与感知相关的美是什么？ 拉：是对体验的渴望的终结。那是传统主义者所认为的。 克：看到善良、美、爱、真理，把这些都放在一边。 现在，什么是美？要感知美，什么是必要的？ 拉：它不仅仅是感知，因为感知属于一切，即使那是不美的。
K: Do not bring in the ugly. Perception is acting, perceiving is acting - leave that. We are talking of beauty. You have said what the professionals have said. Now, what is beauty? Let us forget what others have said. I want to find out what is beauty. We say that building is beautiful, that poem is beautiful, that woman is beautiful. The feeling of a certain quality is beauty - the expression becoming the means of recognition of beauty. I see a building, and say how marvellous. So through the object we recognize beauty.
克：不要引入‘丑’。 感知是行为。感知是行动 —— 离开那里。我们在探讨美。 你已经说了专家们的说法。现在，什么是美？ 让我们忘记别人说过的话。我想找出什么是美。 我们说建筑是美丽的，那首诗是美丽的，那个女人是美丽的。 某种品质的感觉就是美 —— 这种表达成为认识美的手段。 我看到一栋建筑，说多么奇妙。因此，通过这个对象，我们认出美。
There are various expressions of beauty. Through the object we say that is beautiful. Through the object, we recognize what beauty is. Now put that aside. Beauty is not expression. Beauty is not the object. What is beauty then? Is it in the beholder? The beholder is the observer. The observer with his past knowledge recognizes something to be beautiful, because his culture has told him it is beautiful, his culture has conditioned him.
有各种各样的美的表现形式。通过这个对象，我们说它是美丽的。 通过对象，我们认识到什么是美。 现在把它放在一边。美不是表达。美不是这个对象。 那么美是什么呢？是在旁观者身上吗？旁观者是观察者。 观察者携带着他过去的知识，识别出某个东西是美丽的， 因为他的文化告诉他这是美丽的，他的文化已经制约了他。
A: The woman who gives pleasure is beautiful, and when she does not give pleasure, she is no longer beautiful. K: I discard expression, I discard the object created and I discard the perceiver seeing beauty in the object. I discard all these. Then what is the quality of the mind that has discarded them? I have discarded everything that man has said about beauty because I see it is not in anything that has been said. What has happened to the mind which has discarded thought, thought which has created the object? What is the quality of the mind which has discarded all the structures put together by man who has said this is beautiful, this is not beautiful:
阿：给人带来快乐的女人是美丽的，而当她不能给人带来快乐时，她就不再美丽。 克：我抛弃表达，我抛弃创造出的对象，我抛弃感知者在对象中看到的美。 我抛弃所有这些。那么，抛掉它们的这颗头脑的品质是什么？ 我抛弃了人关于美的一切说法，因为我看到它不在那些说法中。 对于那颗抛弃了思想，抛弃了对象所创造的思想的头脑，什么发生了？ 抛弃了所有那些被称为美的或不美的人造品的头脑， 有着什么样的品质？
Obviously the mind is very sensitive, because it was carrying a burden before and now it is lighter. Therefore, it is sensitive, alert, awake. R: You said you have discarded the object and the thought which has created the object. A: Thought is knowledge.
显然，这样的头脑非常敏感，因为它以前背着包袱，而现在变轻了许多。 因此，它是敏感的、警觉的、清醒的。 拉：你说你抛弃了对象和对象创造出的思想。 阿：思想就是知识。
K: Thought is knowledge, which has accumulated through knowledge, through culture which says beauty is this. Thought is the response of memory which has created the object. I have discarded all that, the idea of beauty as truth, goodness, love. Perception of that is action and the action is the putting away, not "I am putting away", but the putting away. So the mind is now free.
克：思想就是知识，它通过知识积累起来，通过文化积累起来，文化说美就是这个。 思想是记忆的回应，而记忆是由对象所创造的。 我已经抛弃了所有那些，那些被当作是美的真、善、爱的观念。 那种感知就是行动，行动就是抛弃，不是“我在抛弃”，而是抛弃这个动作。 所以头脑现在是自由的。
Freedom implies not freedom from something, but freedom. It is highly sensitive. Then what takes place? The mind is free, highly sensitive, is no longer burdened by the past; which means in that mind there is no observer at all; which means there is no "me" observing, because the "me" observing is a very, very limited affair. The "me", the past, is the observer, the "me" is the past.
自由意味着不是从某个东西中解脱，而是自由。它非常灵敏。然后，发生什么？ 这颗头脑是自由的，高度灵敏的，不再被过去的负担所压住； 也就是意味着，在那个头脑中根本没有观察者； 也就是意味着没有‘我’观察，因为这个‘我’观察是一个非常非常局限的事件。 这位‘我’，这个过去，就是观察者，‘我’就是过去。
See what we have done. There is object, knowledge and perception; through knowledge we recognize the object; and we are asking the question, is there perception without knowledge, without the observer? So we discard the two: object and knowledge. In perceiving there is the action of discarding. Again we ask what is beauty? Beauty is generally associated with object; the object created by thought, feeling, thinking. And we discard that.
看看我们做了什么。 这里有对象、知识和感知；通过知识我们识别对象。 我们问这个问题: 没有了知识，没有了观察者，有感知吗？ 所以我们抛弃了两者：对象和知识。在感知中，有抛弃的行为。 我们再问什么是美？ 美通常与对象有关；对象被思想、感觉、思考创造。 我们抛弃了它。
Then I ask myself what is the quality of the mind that has discarded. It is really free. Freedom implies a mind that is highly sensitive. In the action of discarding, it has brought about its own sensitivity, which means there is no centre in that activity. Therefore, it is a sensitivity without time, without a centre as the observer, which means a state of mind that is intensely passionate.
然后我问自己: 抛弃了那些的头脑的品质是什么？它是真正的自由。 自由意味着一个高度敏感的头脑。 在抛弃的行为中，它带来了自身的灵敏，意味着在活动中没有中心。 因此，它是一种没有时间、没有被称之为观察者的中心的灵敏， 也就是头脑处于一种充满激情的状态。
R: When the object and the knowledge of the object are gone, there is no focus. K: Do not use the word focus. The mind discarding what "it is not", is free. The act of perceiving what "it is not" has released the mind and the mind is free. It is not free from it, it is not free from the object, but it is free. A: The act of perceiving and discarding of that knowledge are instantaneous and simultaneous.
拉：当对象和对象的知识消失时，就没有焦点了。 克：别使用‘焦点’这个词。正在抛弃‘它不是’的头脑，是自由的。 感知到‘它不是’的行为解放了这颗头脑，头脑是自由的。 它不是从中解放，不是从任何对象中解脱，它就是自由。 阿：感知和抛弃这些知识的行为是即刻的、同时的。
K: That is freedom. The act of perceiving has brought about freedom, not from something. When the mind is sensitive, there is no centre, there is no "me" in it, there is the total abandonment of the self as the observer. Then the mind is full of energy because it is no longer caught in the division of sorrow, pain and pleasure. It is intensely passionate and it is such a mind that sees what is beautiful.
克：那就是自由。感知的行为带来了自由，而不是来自于某物。 当头脑敏感时，没有中心，没有‘我’，完全放弃了作为观察者的自我。 然后，头脑充满能量，因为它不再陷入悲伤、痛苦和快乐的分裂中。 它是强烈的激情，正是这样一颗头脑看见什么是美。
I see something: which is, suffering is a partial activity of energy. It is a fragmentary energy. Energy is pleasure, energy is pain; to go to the office, to learn is energy. Human beings have divided this energy into fragments. Everything is a part, is a fragment of the various other fragments of energy. When there is no activity of the fragment, there is complete focussing of all energy.
我看到了一些东西：也就是，受苦是能量的部分活动。它是一种零碎的能量。 能量是快乐，能量是痛苦；去办公室，学习是能量。 人类将这种能量分成了碎片。 一切都是某一部分，是属于其余各种能量碎片的碎片。 当碎片没有活动时，所有能量都完全地聚焦。
I hate somebody and I love somebody. Both are energy - fragmentary energy acting in opposite directions - which breed conflict. Suffering is a form of energy; a fragment which we call suffering. So all our ways of 1iving are fragmented. Each is fighting the other. If there is a harmonious whole, that energy is passion. So that energy is this, is the mind that is free, sensitive, in which the "me" as the past is completely dissolved and, therefore, such a mind is full of energy and passion, and therefore that is beauty.
我恨一个人，我爱一个人。 两者都是能量 —— 在相反的方向上起作用的零碎的能量 —— 滋生出冲突。 受苦是一种能量；一片被我们称之为受苦的碎片。 因此，我们所有的生活方式都是支离破碎的。彼此都在相互战斗。 如果有一个和谐的整体，那种能量就是激情。 所以能量就是这，是自由的、灵敏的头脑，其中作为过去的‘我’被完全溶解了， 因此，这样的头脑充满了能量和激情，因此那就是美。