A: The greatest hindrance to perception is idea. What is the difference between fact and the idea about a fact? K: How do the professionals regard perception, the seeing, the fact? R: In Vedanta, it is said that consciousness acts through the sense organs. It sees an object. Consciousness takes the form of the object. It is like water taking the shape of the vessel. That is perception.
阿：感知的最大障碍是观念。 事实与对事实的观念，两者之间有何区别？ 克：对于感知、看见、事实，专家们如何看待？ 拉：《吠檀多》说，意识通过感觉器官而起作用。 它看到一个对象。 意识获得这个对象的形状。就如同水获得这个容器的形状。 这就是感知。
K: What is perception, the seeing, to you? You see the chest of drawers; you have the image of the chest of drawers, therefore, recognize it as the chest of drawers. When you see that piece of furniture, do you have the image first or do you see first, have the image and then recognize? R: Instantaneously the image arises, then we call it a chest of drawers. A: There is seeing, and the immediate naming.
克：对你来说，什么是感知，这种看是什么？你看这个衣柜； 你有一个衣柜的形象，因此，你识别出它是衣柜。 当你看到那件家具， 你是先有形象还是先看，形象，然后识别？ 拉：形象瞬间浮现，然后我们就把它称为‘衣柜’。 阿：看，接着立即命名。
K: So I do not have the image first. There is seeing, association, recognition, naming. I do not start with the naming, the image. That is fairly easy. I see you this morning. I saw you yesterday and, therefore, there is an image of you. So that image is you. Is there a difference between the physical object of perception and the mental image of perception? A: There is a difference between the two. One is purely an image of a shape as in the case of an object, the other is an image created by reactions, which are not merely form and shape.
克：因此，早先我没有形象。这个过程是：看，联想，识别，命名。 我不是从命名和形象开始的。这是相当容易的。 我今天早上见到你。我昨天见过你，因此，有你的形象。所以那个形象就是你。 感知的物理对象和感知的心理形象之间有区别吗？ 阿：两者之间是有区别的。 一个是作为物体形状的形象， 另一个是由反应而产生的形象，里面不仅仅是样式和形状。
K: Take a simple thing. You see a snake. The brain cells are conditioned to snakes; they know that snakes are dangerous. The brain is conditioned from childhood to the danger of a snake and so it reacts. The child, not knowing the danger, may not react, but the mother comes along and tells it. The chest of drawers, the picture, the naming of it, has formed a picture in the brain cells. So I say it is a chest of drawers. The brain cells have been conditioned by a particular environment to call it a chest of drawers. A: The question is, therefore, before seeing the fact, the idea about the fact arises which may not necessarily be factual.
克：举一个简单的例子。你看见一条蛇。脑细胞受制于蛇； 它们知道蛇是危险的。 这个大脑从小就受限于蛇的危险，所以它会做出反应。 不知道危险的孩子可能没有反应，但母亲走过来并告诉它。 衣柜，图片，它的命名，在脑细胞中形成了一幅画。 所以我说这是一个衣柜。 阿：因此，问题是， 在看到事实之前，关于事实的观念就产生了，而这个观念可能不一定是事实。
K: Are you saying that there is violence, one feels angry, then the naming of the feeling and the naming is to strengthen the past? A: I meet my brother. He has quarrelled with me and I am on my guard when I meet him next. So I am unable to see him at all. I am only seeing the idea. R: The brain cells carry the image of the hurt. K: There is violence, anger. At the moment of anger, there is no naming. A second later, I call it anger. The naming of that feeling as anger is to record that fact and strengthen the past, the memory, which has recognized that feeling as anger.
克：你在说暴力吗，一个人感到愤怒， 然后给这种感觉命名，而这种命名加强了这个过去？ 阿：我碰到我哥哥。他和我吵架了，下次碰见他时，我会保持防御。 所以我根本看不见他。我只看到了这个观念。 拉：脑细胞携带着受伤的形象。 克：有暴力，愤怒。在愤怒的那一刻，没有命名。一秒钟后，我把它称为愤怒。 将这种感觉命名为‘愤怒’，是为了记录这个事实 并加强这个过去，这个记忆，这个我所认识的愤怒的感觉。
R: This is something which is different from naming. K: We are coming to that. There is the chest of drawers, there is the person, then all the emotional reactions. One is angry; at the moment of anger there is no naming, a second later there is naming. Why do we name? Why do we say "I am angry"? Why is there the need to put it into words? Or is it merely habit; an instant response? A: A defence mechanism starts. The recognition itself is creating a situation which says "I do not want to get into conflict." K: That is one part of it - naming as a process of self-defence. Why does one name a particular reaction? R: Otherwise, one would not feel that one was existing. K: Why do we name it, why do I name? You have hurt me and I name it and form a certain self-defence. A: If I did not name, there would not be continuity. K: Why does the mind give it a continuity? R: To feel that it exists.
拉：这与命名有某些不同。 克：我们正在来到那一点上。这件衣柜，这个人，然后是所有的情绪反应。 一个人愤怒，在愤怒的那一刻没有命名，一秒之后出现了命名。 我们为什么命名？为什么我们说‘我很愤怒’？ 为什么需要把它变成言词？或者仅仅是一种习惯性的动作、瞬间的反应？ 阿：防御机制启动了。 识别本身营造出一种情景，说‘我不想卷入冲突。’ 克：这是其中的一部分 —— 命名是一个自我防御的过程。为什么一个人要命名一种反应？ 拉：否则，一个人觉得他没有存在感。 克：我们为什么要命名它，我为什么要命名？你伤害了我，我命名它并形成一定的自我防御。 阿：如果我不命名，它就不会延续。 克：为什么头脑要赋予它延续性？ 拉：为了感觉到它的存在。
K: What exists - feeling, anger? Why has naming become so important? I name my house, my wife, my child. Naming strengthens the me. If I did not name, what would happen? Anger would be over. Why should there be continuity? Why does the brain, the mind, operate in continuity? Why is there this verbalization all the time? A: Verbalization establishes that there is some residue. K: Why do we do this? It may be a habit, a form of giving continuity to a sense of anger and the not ending of it. All that indicates that the mind needs occupation. Now, why is the mind demanding to be occupied with sex, God, with money? Why? A: The mind gets stimulated all the time. If there were no stimulus, the mind would fall asleep. K: Is it so? Is this very occupation not putting the mind to sleep?
克：什么存在 —— 感觉，愤怒？ 为什么命名变得如此重要？我命名我的房子，我的妻子，我的孩子。命名加强了我。 如果我不命名，会发生什么？愤怒就结束了。 为什么要有延续性？为什么这颗大脑，这颗头脑，要延续性地运作？ 为什么总是有这种语言化？ 阿：语言化构建出某些残留物。 克：我们为什么要这样做？这可能是一种习惯，一种使愤怒感延续而不结束它的形式。 所有这些都表明，头脑需要占据。 现在，为什么头脑要求被性欲、上帝、金钱所占据？为什么？ 阿：头脑总是在接受刺激。如果没有刺激，头脑就会睡着。 克：是那样吗？难道不是这种占据让头脑昏沉吗？
A: Why does the mind slacken when it is not occupied? K: On the contrary, the moment we begin to enquire why there is this necessity for any kind of occupation, the mind is already alive. A: Mere absence of occupation is not enough. K: Of course, there are many who get duller and duller every day without any occupation. But the question is why does your mind want to be occupied? Will it go to sleep if it is not? Or is it fear of emptiness that makes the mind want to be occupied?
阿：为什么头脑不被占据时会松弛？ 克：恰恰相反， 在我们开始询问‘任何形式的占据有必要吗？’，这颗头脑就已经醒了。 阿：仅仅没有占据，是不够的。 克：当然。许多人的头脑中没有被占据，却也一天天变得更加沉闷。 但问题是为什么你的头脑想要被占据？如果不占据，它会睡觉吗？ 或者，对空虚的恐惧使头脑想要被占据？
I am enquiring. In enquiry the mind will not go to sleep. It is only the mind that is not occupied which can enquire. So most of us fall into habits which prevent looking. I am a Hindu and for the rest of my life I am a Hindu. You are a Muslim and for the rest of your life you are a Muslim. But if I ask myself why I am a Hindu, I open the door to enquiry. So naming may be part of this fear of not knowing what to do.
我正在询问。在调查中，这颗头脑不会入睡。只有没被占据的头脑才能调查。 因此，我们大多数人都养成了习惯，这就阻止了看。 我是印度教徒，在我的余生中，我都是印度教徒。你是穆斯林，在你的余生中，你都是穆斯林。 但是，如果我问自己为什么我是印度教徒，我就会打开调查的大门。 因此，命名可能是这种不知道该怎么做的恐惧的一部分。
A: Fear of leaving the shore of the known. K: That is all. So, can the mind, the brain cells, can they observe the reaction called anger, not name it and so be finished with it? If it does that, there is no carrying over. When next time the reaction arises, which I have named as fear, it has quite a different meaning, a different quality. A: Our difficulty is that we meet anger with idea.
阿：害怕离开已知的此岸。 克：就是如此。 那么，这颗头脑，这些脑细胞们，他们能观察这个被称为愤怒的反应，而不命名它，并结束它吗？ 如果它这么做，就没有携带。 当下一次这种反应升起时，也就是我命名为‘愤怒’的那个，它就有一种完全不同的意义、一种不同的品质。 阿：我们的困难在于我们用观念来应对愤怒。
K: Why have we ideas, formulas? Let us begin again - we know anger, the naming, the conditioned response. Now, we see naming is a factor which gives continuity to anger. I see the truth that by naming we give continuity. So I do not name. As I see the danger of the snake and do not touch it, I do not touch this also. I see that the naming of the fact gives continuity to something which I have called anger and so naming gives duration. So naming is finished. Therefore, anger undergoes a change.
克：为什么我们有观念，有公式？ 让我们重新来 —— 我们知道愤怒、命名、受局限的反应。 现在，我们看到，命名是使愤怒得以延续的一个因子。 我看到这种真实性：通过命名，我赋予了延续性。因此我不去命名。 因为我看到蛇的危险而不碰它，所以我也不碰这。 我看到，命名的这种事实赋予某个东西以延续性 —— 那个我称之为‘愤怒’的东西，从而产生出时间的延展。 所以命名终结了。因此，愤怒经历一种变化。
R: It seems as if during the moment when we are capable of observing anger, anger disappears, and anger exists in the moment when we are not capable of observing. K: No. You call me a fool. I get angry. I do not like your calling me a fool. I see that. I see the falsity of naming. So where is the response? This instantly happens. Instead of naming, this happens and therefore, there is no hurt at all. "A"'s question is why do we have formulas at all. We have ideas first and then perception, action.
拉：好像在我们有能力观察愤怒的那一刻，愤怒就消失了， 愤怒存在于我们无法观察的那一刻。 克：不是。你说我是傻瓜。我很生气。我不喜欢你叫我傻瓜。我看见那。 我看到了命名的虚假性。那么回应在哪里呢？ 这瞬间地触发。而不是命名，这种情况发生，因此，根本没有伤害。 阿克尤特的问题是，我们为什么会有公式。我们首先有观念，然后感知，行动。
A: Instead of one act of perception we have our deep conditioning. All these together, the cultural, the sociological, the anthropological - are a ready frame of reference which give us a sense of security. K: Why do you do this, Sir? R: We have been brought up that way.
阿：我们有着很深的局限，而不能产生感知行为。 文化、社会和人类的遗传，所有这些 —— 是一个现成的参照系，给我们一种安全感。 克：先生，你为什么要这样做？ 拉：我们就是这样长大的。
K: That is not good enough. Do you not know why we do this? We know economically and sociologically it is beneficial. Tribalism still persists. It is tremendously important. Step out of the formulas, patterns of Hinduism, Islam, you will then see what happens. Personally, I have no formula. Why do you have it? Find out. Formulations, which are patterns, give you safe conduct in action. We lay down the line according to which we act and in that there is safety. So fear of insecurity must be one of the reasons why we have formulas, ideas. The mind wants to be certain. The brain cells function perfectly only when there is complete security. I do not know if you have noticed it in yourself. The brain cells function only when there is perfect order. And there is perfect order in a formula.
克：那还不够好。你不知道我们为什么要这样做吗？我们知道，从经济和社会学上讲，这是有益的。 部落主义仍然存在。它极其重要。 走出印度教、伊斯兰教的公式和规则，你会看到发生什么。 就个人而言，我没有公式。你为什么会有它？找出来。 公式化，也就是规则，在行为上为您提供安全的指导。 我们制定我们行动所依据的路线，那样就安全了。 因此，对不安全的恐惧必定是我们抱有公式和观念的原因之一。头脑想去确定。 只有在彻底安全的时候，脑细胞们才能完美地运作。 我不知道你自己有没有注意到它。 只有出现了完美的秩序，脑细胞们才能发挥作用。而在公式中，有完美的秩序。
A: You mean physiologically, we have an inbuilt desire for order. K: Even physiologically, if I do not have a certain type of order, the organism rebels. Order is absolutely necessary, essential. Formulas are the safest way to have order. Have you not noticed that before you go to sleep, the brain cells establish order? "I should not have done this, I should not have said this." And when going to sleep, unless you establish order, it creates its own order. These are all facts.
阿：你的意思是，从生理上讲，我们对秩序有一种内在的渴望。 克：即使在生理上，如果你没有某种秩序，有机体就会反抗。 秩序是绝对必要的，必不可少的。公式是实现秩序的最安全的方式。 难道你没有注意到，在你睡觉之前，脑细胞会建立秩序吗？ “我不应该这样做，我不应该这么说。” 睡觉时，除非你建立秩序，否则它会创造它自己的秩序。这些都是事实。
The brain cells demand order which is security. And formulas are one of the safest ways of conducting one's life without disorder. It is much safer to follow a guru. Formulas are necessary for a mind that wants order, that hopes to find order. What happens? As it hopes to find order in tribalism - the Brahmin tribe, the Hindu tribe, the national tribe - and if you step out of that, there is danger. So to call oneself an Indian is to be safe. To belong to Jehovah, is to be treated as one belonging to that group. As long as I belong to some sect, some guru, I am safe. Now what happens when you have a formula?
脑细胞们需要秩序，也就是安全。 而公式化是最安全的生活方式之一，可以指导一个人不紊乱地生活。 它比跟随上师要安全得多。 对于一个想要秩序、希望找到秩序的头脑来说，公式化是必要的。在发生什么？ 因为它希望在部落主义中找到秩序 —— 婆罗门部落、印度教部落、民族部落 —— 如果你走出来，就会有危险。因此，称自己是印度人就安全了。 属于耶和华，就是被视为属于该群体的人。 只要我属于某个宗派，某个上师，我就安全了。 现在，当您拥有公式时,在发生什么？
You have your formulas and I have my formulas. You have your security, and I who have no time, accept it. What happens to me when I accept your formula? Do you not know what happens when I am a Hindu? There is division, therefore insecurity. The brain cells demand order, because they want to have harmony. They use formulas as a means to order. The brain cells demand order, demand security, otherwise they cannot function properly. Seeking order through formula creates division, disorder. Once I see the real danger, then what happens? Then I do not seek safety in formula, then I enquire whether there is safety in any other direction, whether there is such a thing as safety.
你有你的一套公式，我有我的一套。 你有你的安全，而没有时间的我，接受它。当我接受你的公式时，我发生了什么？ 你不知道吗？当我是印度教徒时，发生了什么？出现了分裂，因此不安全。 脑细胞们需要秩序，因为它们想要和谐。他们使用公式作实现秩序的手段。 脑细胞们需要秩序，需要安全，否则它们就无法正常运作。 通过公式寻求秩序，创造出分裂，失序。 一旦我看到这真实的危险，那么，在发生什么？ 我不在公式中寻求安全， 然后我问：其他方向是否有安全，是否有一个叫‘安全’的这种东西。
A: But the brain needs safety. K: The brain must have order. A: Order is not safety. K: Order is safety, order is harmony, but the very search for order ends in disorder. So, seeing this, I drop all formulas. I am no longer a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Muslim. Drop all this. Dropping is intelligence. In the very dropping the mind has become very intelligent. Intelligence is order. I do not know if you see this.
阿：但是大脑需要安全。 克：头脑必须有秩序。 阿：秩序不是安全。 克：秩序就是安全，秩序是和谐，但是对秩序的追求却以失序告终。 所以，看到这，我放弃了所有的公式。我不再是印度教徒、佛教徒、穆斯林。 放下这一切。放弃是智慧。在放下的过程中，头脑变得非常聪明。 智慧就是秩序。我不知道你是否看到这一点。
In enlightenment there is order. Therefore, the brain can function in perfect condition. Then relationship has quite a different meaning. The brain cells are seeking order in disorder. They do not see the nature of disorder. They do not understand what is disorder. It is when the brain cells reject tribalism, formulas, that in the very rejection is inte1ligence, which is order.
在觉悟中，有秩序。因此，这颗脑袋能在完美的状态下运作。 那么关系就有了完全不同的意义。 脑细胞们在失序中寻求秩序。他们看不到失序的本质。 他们不明白什么是失序。 当脑细胞拒绝部落主义，公式时，拒绝本身就是智慧，也就是秩序。