A: I was in the self-preparation group of the Theosophical Society in 1923-24. In that group, there was a preparation for understanding - viveka, vairagya and love. It was a traditional approach. A change came about when you said let us break away from organizations, from all disciplines. In the work At the Feet of the Master, shama is translated as control of the mind and dama as control of the body. In the traditional approach, shama seems to have been neglected. Less attention seems to have been given to the meaning and implication of shama and more than due stress laid on dama. Shanti has become a one word symbol of inner peace and it is the past-passive participle of the verb shama. So if shama is not understood, shanti is also not understood. K: What do you mean by the word "sadhana"? J: Sadhana means discipline; to acquire. A: You neglect shama, the process by which arising of impulses and the subsiding of them takes place.
阿：在1923-1924年，我参加了神智学会的自我准备小组。 在那群人中，有一个理解的准备 —— 正确的认识、超脱和爱。这是一种传统方法。 当你说让我们脱离组织，脱离所有戒律时，发生了变化。 在作品《在大师的脚下》中，shama被翻译为对头脑的控制，dama被翻译为对身体的控制。 在传统方法中，shama似乎被忽视了。 对shama的含义似乎没有给予应有的重视，而对过分地强调了dama。 shanti已经成为内心平静的一个象征，它是动词shama的过去被动分词。 因此，如果不理解shama，shanti也无法理解。 克：你说的sadhana是什么意思？ 贾：sadhana的意思是纪律；以获取。 阿：你忽略了shama，这一个冲动的产生和消退的发生过程。
K: What do you mean by the word 'process' - from here to there, to proceed, a movement from here to there. A movement from here to there necessitates "sadhana". Process implies time. A: This process of observing the ways of the mind involves time. K: Time is involved in process, in discipline, in order to arrive. All that implies time, time that includes space - from here to there - and that space can be covered through time.
克：你所说的过程是什么含义 —— 指从这里到那里，一个流程，一种从这到那儿的移动吗？ 从这里到那里的运动需要sadhana。过程意味着时间。 阿：在观察头脑运作方式的过程中，涉及到时间。 克：在过程中，在训练中，为了达到，都涉及到时间。 这一切都意味着时间，时间也包含了空间 —— 从这里到那里 —— 那段空间可以通过时间来覆盖。
J: Ramana says it is pathless, free of process, free of time. A: Even when we realize that it is not good to suppress the arising and ending of desire, that realization is still a process, and is in time. K: When we say we live in time, what do we mean by that? What does living in time mean? A: The mind is geared to yesterday, today and tomorrow.
贾：拉马纳说它是无路的，没有过程的，无关于时间的。 阿：即使我们意识到压抑欲望的升起和结束是不好的， 这种认知依然是一个过程，也在时间里。 克：当我们说我们生活在时间里时，我们的意思是什么？生活在时间里意味着什么？ 阿：这颗头脑计算着昨天，今天和明天。
K: Not only the mind, but the numerical time - I come here at such and such a time. Living is within this numerical time, chronological time. Is that all my life? Is there any other time? A: There is psychological time which is created by the mind. K: What do you mean by time as created by the mind? A: The mind has a way of prolonging pleasure. My movement in chronological time is influenced by my mind. K: What is this mind? A: Memory.
克：不仅是这颗头脑，还有数字上的时间 —— 我在某一个时间来到这里。 生活就在这个数字上的、顺序的时间里。这就是我的全部生命吗？还有其他的时间吗？ 阿：还有头脑创造出来的时间。 克：你说的‘头脑创造出来的时间’是什么意思？ 阿：头脑有一种延长快乐的方法。我在物理时间里的运动受我的头脑影响。 克：这个头脑是什么？ 阿：记忆。
K: What is memory? You were in Bangalore and today you are in Madras. You remember Bangalore. Remembrance of a past experience or occurrence is memory. That leaves a mark. What is the substance on which the mark is left? There was an experience yesterday. It has left a mark, pain or pleasure, that is irrelevant. It has left a mark. On what has it left a mark? Why has it left a mark? What does the word experience mean? Experience means to go through, to propel, to throw out. When that experience is not completely washed out, it leaves a mark. On what does it leave the mark? There is a substance on which the mark has to be left. What is the substance? A: The censor. K: What do you mean by the censor? I see yesterday's experience has left a mark. On what has it left a mark? J: On mind which is consciousness.
克：什么是记忆？你曾经在班加罗尔，今天在马德拉斯。你还记得班加罗尔。 对过去经历或事件的回忆就是记忆。那留下了印记。 它在什么物质上留下了印记？ 昨天有一次经历。它留下了一个印记，不管是痛苦或快乐的，都无关紧要。它留下了印记。 它在什么东西上留下了印记？为什么会留下印记？‘体验’这个词是什么意思？ 经验意味着穿过，推进，抛弃。 当那种体验没有完全消失，它就会留下一个印记。 它在什么东西上留下了印记？ 要留下印记，必定有一种载体。这种载体是什么？ 阿：审查员。 克：‘审查员’是什么意思？我看到昨天的体验留下了印记。它在什么地方留下了印记？ 贾：在头脑上，也就是意识。
K: Which consciousness? The content of consciousness is consciousness. Without the content, there is no consciousness. Content is consciousness. The two are not separate. Find out on what memory leaves a mark. A: That part of the mind, the brain which carries the residue. K: Residue is experience. Marks are left on the brain cells themselves. See what it has done; experience unfinished, leaves a mark on the brain cells which hold memory. Memory is matter. Otherwise it cannot hold and leave a mark on the brain cells which are also matter. See what happens, Sir. Every incomplete experience, leaves a mark which becomes knowledge. The weight makes the mind dull. The brain as accumulated knowledge has received information, which is knowledge.
克：哪个意识？意识的内容就是意识。没有内容，就没有意识。 内容就是意识。两者并没有分开。找出记忆在哪里留下了印记。 阿：在大脑的某个部分，某个存放残余的部分。 克：残余物就是体验。印记被留在脑细胞上。看看它做了什么； 未完成的体验，在持有记忆的脑细胞上留下了印记。 记忆是物质。否则，它就不能在脑细胞上存留并形成印记，脑细胞也是物质。 看看在发生什么，先生。 每一个不完整的体验，都留下一个印记，变成了知识。这种重量使头脑迟钝。 这个大脑装载着接收到信息，也就是所谓的知识。
A: How does one cope with a challenge? K: What is coping with a challenge? If you respond according to past information, you do not know how to deal with the new problem. So, experience leaves a residue as memory on the brain cells, which becomes the storehouse of knowledge. Knowledge is always the past. So the brain cells act, respond, function according to the information, knowledge, residue of the past. Brain is being put together through time which is the past. And so, a mind crowded with knowledge is not a free mind. J: Because its responses are arising out of the known.
阿：一个人如何应对挑战？ 克：什么是应对挑战？如果你根据过去的信息做出回应，你就不知道如何处理新问题。 因此，体验遗下残渣，保留在脑细胞，成为知识的仓库。 知识永远是过去。 因此，脑细胞根据过去的信息、知识和残留物行动、反应、运作。 通过时间，也就是过去，大脑正在被组装。 因此，一颗塞满知识的头脑不自由。 贾：因为它的反应都源于已知。
A: At a certain level, it is essential. K: Of course, half our life is that. We see that this brain, which is put together through millennia, lives with the experience of the present and the past, the racial past, the familial, the personal past, and they are all weighted down there. We call this progress. We know technological progress, from the bullock to the jet. And the brain says that is the only way it can function with its memories; and thought says it wants to get out of the prison; so thought moves to the future - which is enlightenment, which again is a movement of thought. See what we are doing.
阿：在某种程度上，这是必不可少的。 克：当然，我们的一半生命就是这样。 我们看到，这个大脑，经过几千年的拼凑， 装载着现在和过去的经验、种族经验，家族、个人过去的经验，它们都压在大脑上。 我们把这称之为‘进步’。我们知道技术上的进步，从公牛到喷气式飞机。 这颗大脑说，只有通过记忆它才能工作； 而思想说，它想要越狱； 所以思想走向未来 —— 也就是觉悟，这又是一个思想活动。 看我们正在做什么。
A: We apply the same principle of the bullock cart and the jet - that the mind through acquired knowledge, through discipline, through control of all desires, can move to freedom. K: I do not think we are still clear. We accumulate knowledge, which is experience, memory, and through knowledge we try to find a way out. A: Yes.
阿：我们应用与牛车和喷气式飞机相同的原理 —— 头脑通过获得的知识，通过纪律，通过控制所有欲望，可以走向自由。 克：我认为我们仍然不清楚。 我们积累知识，也就是经验、记忆，通过知识，我们试图找到出路。 阿：是的。
K: The traditional approach is through knowledge. And can knowledge bring about freedom? If it can, then discipline, control, sublimation, suppression are all necessary, because that is all we know. That is tradition; tradition means to carry over. A: I see clearly it is not possible. Then why does it not stop? K: I see clearly that this is a fact. It is not an assumption, a theory. I see knowledge, which is the accumulation of centuries, is a prison and yet the mind cannot drop it.
克：传统的方法是通过知识。知识能带来自由吗？ 如果它能，那么纪律、控制、升华、压制都是必要的，因为这就是我们所知道的。 这就是传统；传统意味着继承。 阿：我清楚地看到这是不可能的。那为什么不停下呢？ 克：我清楚地看到这是事实。它不是一个假设、一个理论。 我看到知识，这是几个世纪的积累，是一座监狱，而头脑却不能放弃它。
A: This knowledge is verbal. My knowledge is based on words. K: Is it verbal? I hit you. You hit me. Pain is there. The memory of that pain is there. You hit me; I have physical pain. The remembrance of the pain is verbal but the pain is not verbal. Why has the mind translated the pain into words? Watch it, Sir.
阿：这种知识是言语上的。我的知识是基于文字的。 克：它是言语上的？你打我，痛苦就在那里。那种痛苦的记忆就在那里。 你打我，我就有身体上的痛苦。对痛苦的记忆是言语上的，但是这种痛苦不是言语。 为什么头脑把痛苦转化为文字？观察它，先生。
A: Communication. K: Watch it. You hit me. I have pain. That is a physical fact. Then I remember it. The remembrance is the word. Why has the fact become a word? J: To give continuity. K: Is it to give continuity to pain? Or continuity to the man who has given pain? A: He has to reap the consequences.
阿：交流。 克：观察它。你打我。我痛苦。那是个身体上的事实。然后我记住了它。 这种记忆就是这些文字。为什么事实变成了文字？ 贾：为了使它延续。 克：是为了让痛苦延续？或者，使带来痛苦的人延续？ 阿：他不得不收获这个后果。
J: It gives continuity to the man who receives the pain. K: Look. You hit me. There is physical pain. That is all. Why do I not end it? Why does the brain say "A has hit me"? It has already translated the pain into words. Why? Because it wants to hit back. If it did not do that, it could say, "Yes, A has hit me" - full stop. But the brain remembers not only pain which becomes the psychological mark but also the man who causes the hurt. R: Who remembers? K: The cell. A: The "I" process. J: What is getting recorded in the cell is the image of the man who hit. K: Why should I remember the man? J: Even if I forgive him, it is the same.
贾：它使感受痛苦的人具有了延续性。 克：看。你打我。有身体上的痛苦。仅此而已。我为什么不结束它？ 为什么大脑会说‘A打了我’？它已经将痛苦转化为文字。为什么？ 因为它想反击。如果它不这样做，它会说，‘是的，A打了我’ —— 句号。 但大脑不仅会记住成为心理印记的痛苦，也记住了造成这个伤害的人。 拉：谁在记？ 克：脑细胞。 阿：这个‘我’。 贾：被记录在脑细胞里的是打我的人的样子。 克：为什么我要记住这个人？ 贾：即使我原谅他，也是一样的。
K: What happens is: I translate the fact into words, "You hit me". The moment you hit, there is pain and the "I" which says, "A has hit me, how could he, what have I done." All these are waves of words. So your traditional approach to this problem is through knowledge; that you must have knowledge to arrive, to achieve freedom. And your knowledge is verbal. And I say, is that so? The experience of being hit is knowledge. Now what is the traditional approach to this whole problem of pain, suffering, of being hurt? What is the traditional response? Why has tradition maintained that knowledge is necessary as a means to enlightenment?
克：发生的情况是：我把事实翻译成文字，‘你打我’。 你打的那一刻，有痛苦，‘我’说： ‘A打了我，他怎么可能这么做，我做错了什么？’ 所有这些都是一波又一波的言词。 因此，您解决此问题的传统方法是通过知识； 你必须拥有知识才能到达，才能实现自由。 你的知识是言语上的。我说，是那样的吗？这个被打的体验是知识。 现在，要解决痛苦、苦难和伤害这整个问题，传统的方法是什么？ 传统的回应是什么？ 为什么传统坚持认为作为觉悟手段的知识是必要的？
A: This is oversimplification. Verbalizing of pain is one part, but the entire field of knowledge is racial. The word is the essence of knowledge. K: Is it? J: It is not so.
阿：这过于简单化了。痛苦的言语化只是一个部分，整个知识的领域是种族的。 文字是知识的本质。 克：是吗？ 贾：不是这样的。
K: So we have to see what knowledge is (which comes from the word "to know"). Is it knowing, the active present, or the having known? The active present of the word "to know" is knowing, not having known. A: When we talk of knowledge, it presupposes having known. K: Tradition says having knowledge is essential to freedom, enlightenment. Why has this been maintained? There must have been people who must have questioned knowledge. Why have the Gita, the gurus not questioned? Why did they not see that knowledge means the past, that the past cannot possibly bring enlightenment? Why did the traditionalists not see that discipline, sadhana have all come from knowledge? J: 1s it because people felt that memory must be maintained? K: Why did the professionals not see that knowledge is the self? They talked everlastingly about wiping away the self.
克：所以我们必须看看什么是知识（来自于“知道”这个词）。 知道吗？这个活跃的现在，或者，这个已经知道的？ ‘知道’这个词的现在进行式是去知晓，而不是已经知道。 阿：当我们谈论知识时，它的前提就是那些已经知道的东西。 克：传统上说，要获得自由和觉悟，拥有知识是必要的。为什么它维护这种主张？ 肯定有人质疑过知识。 为什么《梵歌》、上师们没有受到质疑？ 为什么他们没有看到知识意味着过去，而过去不可能带来觉悟？ 为什么传统主义者没有看到：戒律、sadhana都来自于知识？ 贾：是因为人们觉得那些记忆必须被维护吗？ 克：为什么专家们没有看到知识就是自我？他们在无休止地谈论消除自我！
A: So long as communication is verbal, you cannot wipe away the self. K: Do you mean to say that the professionals can never look at anything without the word? A: The word is compulsive, non-volitional. K: You hit me. There is pain. I see that. Why should that be built up as memory? You are not answering my question. Why did the professionals not see the simple fact that accumulated knowledge can never lead to freedom? A: Some of them did see. K: Why did they not act? The professionals are you, the professionals whom you have read; therefore why cannot you drop it? Which means you have not dropped tradition. Personally, I see a very simple fact. You hit me. There is pain. That is all. A: What about pleasure? K: The same thing.
阿：只要沟通是言语上的，你就无法消除自我。 克：你的意思是说，专家们永远不能脱离文字去看任何东西？ 阿：言语是无法抑制的，非意志力的。 克：你打我。有痛苦。我看到了。为什么要把它搭建成记忆？你没有回答我的问题。 为什么专家们没有看到‘积累的知识永远无法带来自由’这个简单的事实？ 阿：他们中的一些人确实看到了。 克：他们为什么不采取行动？专业人士就是你，你读过专业；因此，为什么你不能放弃它？ 这意味着你没有放弃传统。就个人而言，我看到一个非常简单的事实。你打我。有痛苦。仅此而已。 阿：那么，快乐呢？ 克：是同一个东西。
A: It involves an effort to drop. K: Then you enter the same circus - naming, the word, which means to strengthen the knowledge that you hit me. I do not stop there. You hit me that is a fact. My son is dead. That is a fact. To become cynical, bitter, to say "I loved him and he is gone" - all that is verbalization. A: So long as the chattering of the mind goes on - K: Let it chatter. Look. Fact is one thing and the description is another. We are caught in description, in explanation but not with the fact. Why does that take place first of all? When the house burns, I act and I must. What is action here? You have hit me. Here there is only complete inaction, which means no verbalization.
阿：这涉及到努力地去放弃。 克：然后你进入到了同一场闹剧中 —— 命名，这个言词，也就是强化‘你打我’的这个知识。 我不会停在那里。你打我，这是事实。我儿子死了，这也是事实。 变得愤世嫉俗、尖酸刻薄，说‘我爱他，他走了’ —— 所有这一切都是言词。 阿：只要头脑的喋喋不休还在继续 —— 克：让它喋喋不休吧。看。事实是一回事，而描述是另一回事。 我们失陷于描述，被解释所困；却不与事实相处。 为什么是这样？ 当房子燃烧时，我采取行动，我必须采取行动。这里的行动是什么？ 你打了我。这儿只有彻底地不行动，也就是不去言词化。
A: This happened to me when my brother died. K: Then what takes place? Why do we get caught in knowledge and make it so extraordinarily important? The capacity to reason, argue; why has it become so important? The computers are taking over that function. Why have the professionals been caught in this trap? So, can the brain cells, put together through time as knowledge, function in knowledge when necessary, and yet be completely free of knowledge?
阿：当我哥哥去世时，这件事就发生在我身上。 克：那么发生了什么？为什么我们陷于知识并使其变得如此重要？ 这种推理、辩论的能力；为什么变得如此重要？ 计算机正在接管这种功能。专家们为什么陷入这个陷阱？ 那么，这些脑细胞们，通过时间而组合出知识，必要的时候，能够在知识中发挥作用，同时又完全地摆脱知识吗？
A: I have pleasure. I say "How nice, wonderful"; I do not drop pleasure. K: I have had an affair. Pleasure is involved in it. Then thought comes along and says I would like to repeat it. Which is what? Affair, memory, reaction of memory as thought, thought building images, demanding images which is part of tradition, carrying over. I have had a pleasurable experience yesterday. Carrying over to tomorrow is tradition. A.: Also joy. K: The moment you reduce it to pleasure, it is gone.
阿：我有快乐，我说‘多么美好，多么美妙！’；我不会抛弃快乐。 克：我有一场外遇。它带给我快乐。 然后思想念头出现：‘我想重复它’，这意味着什么？ 外遇，记忆，记忆的反应，就是思想，思想构建画面，追求画面，这是一种传统，正在延续。 我昨天有一个快乐的体验。使它延续到明天，就是传统。 阿：欢乐也是。 克：当你把它简化为快乐的那一刻，它就消失了。
A: Is there only pleasure and pain or is there more in knowledge? K: We cannot answer that unless we understand pain, pleasure and knowledge. The professionals have been blind and they have made millions of people blind. The monstrosity of it! The whole of this country, the Christian world, all over it is the same. The next question arises, whether the brain cells can function at one level with complete objectivity, with sane knowledge, without bringing the pleasure principle into it, pleasure through prestige, status and all that? And can the brain cells also realize that freedom is not in knowledge? That realization is freedom. How does this happen?
阿：在知识中，只有快乐和痛苦吗？还是有更多的内容？ 克：除非我们理解痛苦、快乐和知识，否则我们无法回答这个问题。 专业人士是盲人，他们使数百万人失明。这真是畸形！ 这整个国家，整个基督教世界，到处都是这样。 下一个问题出现了， 脑细胞是否可以在一个层面上完全客观地发挥作用，运用合理的知识， 不将快乐原则带入其中，不通过声望、地位等等去获取快乐？ 脑细胞们也能意识到自由不在知识里吗？ 那种意识就是自由。这是怎么发生的？
J: One point here - when thought craves to die, it continues. K: What would be the professional's answer to this question? Why does thought cling? J: Samadhi. I stay in samadhi and come back. K: There is no meaning in that. Do the brain cells see themselves as a repository of knowledge? Does the brain cell realize it for itself? Not as a superimposed realization, but that when the principle of pleasure acts, then the mischief begins? Then there is fear, violence, aggression, everything follows. A: When the field of knowledge is distorted by pain and pleasure, then the whole mischief starts.
贾：有一种说法 —— 当思想渴望死亡时，它就会继续。 克：专业人士对这个问题的回答是什么？为什么思想死缠着？ 贾：三摩地。我留在三摩地，然后回来。 克：这没有任何意义。脑细胞是否将自己视为知识的宝库？ 脑细胞自己意识到了吗？ —— 不是附加的意识，而是意识到：当快乐的原则起作用时，灾难就开始了。 然后是恐惧、暴力、侵略，一切都随之而来。 阿：当知识的领域被痛苦和快乐扭曲，整个灾难就开始了。
K: Why did the traditionalists, the professionals, the scriptures, the spiritual leaders not see this? Was it because authority was tremendously important - the authority of the Gita, the experience, the scriptures. Why? Why did they not see this? Because, man is the result of all this. And so you have the man who says I have read the Gita, I am the authority. Authority of what? Of somebody else's words, of knowledge? A: We can know the various systems without being involved in them. The tradition does bring you a certain clarity. We know how the professionals worked and how you work. You say knowledge is entirely of the past.
克：为什么传统主义者、专业人士、经文、精神领袖们没有看到这一点？ 是因为权威非常重要吗 —— 《梵歌》、经验、经文的权威。 为什么？为什么他们没有看到这一点？ 因为人是这一切的结果。 因此你听见有人说: 我读过《梵歌》，我是权威。 是什么权威？别人的话？知识？ 阿：我们可以在不参与其中的情况下，知道各种系统。传统确实给你带来了一定的清晰度。 我们知道专业人士是如何工作的，也知道你是如何工作的。你说知识完全是过去的。
K: Obviously. If I am tethered to a post, I cannot move. A: Then why did the professionals not see it? K: They were after power. A: You do not understand. When you say they wanted power, that is not so. K: Look. What is taking place in each person? We see something very clearly for a moment. The perception is translated into experience as knowledge. There it is. I have seen it. It is finished. I do not have to carry it with me. The next minute I am watching.
克：显然。如果我被栓在一根柱子上，我就不能移动。 阿：为什么专家们看不到这一点？ 克：他们追逐权力。 阿：你不明白。你说他们想要权力，但事实并非如此。 克：看，每个人身上发生了什么？我们在某一刻看得很清楚。 这种感知被翻译成经验，变成了知识。 就是这样。我看见了。它结束了。我不必随身携带它。 下一分钟，我在观察。
J: Why is there a watcher? K: Look, why does the brain insist on a continuity in knowledge? Why does the brain continue in the multiplicity of knowledge? Why does it keep on adding, multiplying, "I did this yesterday, she was so kind; why is this going on and on? Look Sir, the brain cannot function healthily, sanely, if it is not completely secure. Security means order. Without order the brain cannot function, it becomes neurotic. Like a child it needs complete security. When the child is secure, feels at home, it is not frightened, then it grows up as a marvellous human being. So the brain needs security and it has found security in knowledge. That is the only thing it can be secure in - experience as knowledge which acts as the future guide. So it needs security and it finds it in knowledge, in belief, in family.
贾：为什么会有观察者？ 克：看，为什么大脑坚持知识的连续性？ 为什么大脑在知识的多样性中继续？ 为什么它不断添加，繁衍，‘我昨天做了这个，她太善良了’；为什么会这样？ 看，先生，如果大脑没有完整的安全，它就不能健康地、理智地运作。安全意味着秩序。 没有秩序，大脑就无法运作，它变得神经质。像孩子一样，它需要完整的安全。 当孩子有安全感，感到很自在，不害怕时，他就会成长为一个了不起的人。 所以大脑需要安全感，它在知识中找到了安全感。 这是它唯一可以确信的东西 —— 体验被作为知识，充当了未来的向导。 因此，它需要安全感，它在知识、信仰和家庭中找到了它。
A: The traditionalists provided that security through knowledge. K: The mind wants security. If the professional said I really do not I know, he would not be a professional. A: Yet security at a certain level is essential. K: One has to negate the Gita, the Bible, the guru, the whole thing. One has to negate totally all the constructions that thought has put together, to wipe away and say "I do not know, I do not know a thing." One has to say "I will not say a thing, I do not know. I will not repeat a thing which somebody else has said." Then you begin.
阿：传统主义者通过知识提供了这种安全感。 克：头脑想要安全感。如果专家说自己真的不知道，他就不会是一名专家。 阿：然而在某种层面的安全是必要的。 克：一个人必须否定《梵歌》、《圣经》、上师，否定一切。 一个人必须完全否定思想所构建的所有结构，抹去并说“我不知道，我什么都不知道”。 一个人不得不说：‘我什么都不会说，我不知道。我不会重复别人说过的话。’ 那么，你开始。