A: When you say that memory is the function of the brain cells, do the brain cells as a source of intellect have any valid part to play in their own silencing? K: We were talking yesterday of why knowledge has been made important as a way of enlightenment. Apparently every religious teacher has insisted on knowledge, not only in the East but also in the West. And as tradition is so strong in this country, it is really necessary to find out what part this whole systematized thinking plays in attaining enlightenment. What part does the environmental conditioning play in enlightenment? How does culture, the conditioning by culture come into being? You must cover the whole field. Take a traditional outlook like that of Nagarjuna or Sankara. Approach it from there.
阿：当你说记忆是脑细胞的功能时， 作为智力来源的脑细胞们，在它们自己的安静中，是否发挥着有效的作用？ 克：我们昨天谈到了为什么把作为一种觉悟方式的知识变得如此重要。 显然，每个宗教老师都维护着知识，不仅是在东方，西方也是如此。 由于传统在这个国家是如此强大， 确实有必要找出这整个系统化的思维在获得觉悟中扮演着什么角色。 环境条件在觉悟中扮演着什么角色？ 文化，文化的局限是怎样产生的？您必须覆盖整个领域。 采取像龙树菩萨或商羯罗那样的传统观点。从那里接近它。
A: The traditionalists say, all action, activity, arises from causes, and these causes are known. K: You are making an incorrect statement. You are stating from cause to effect. There is no such thing. A: It starts with this sutra: "All these manifestations of behaviour, it is the Buddha who has given you the source of all these manifestations. If you know the cause, you can eliminate the cause." This is the statement of the Buddha. By understanding the cause you get rid of it and he has told you the cause. All manifested thought, behaviour, is within the field of cause-effect.
阿：传统主义者说，一切行为、活动，都源于原因，而这些原因是已知的。 克：你的说法不正确。你是在陈述因果关系。没有这样的东西。 阿：它以这篇佛经开始：“所有这些行为的表现，是佛陀给了你所有这些表现的来源。 如果你知道原因，你就可以消除原因。” 这是佛陀的说法。 通过理解原因，你摆脱了它，他已经告诉你原因。 所有表现出的思想，行为，都在因果领域之内。
K: I question this. We also see that what was cause becomes the effect and effect becomes the cause. There is no fixed cause, there is no fixed effect. If there is a fixed cause, everything is fixed. Then there is no explanation enquiry, movement possible. The acorn will produce an oak tree. On this principle, we think karma operates. Now is there a fixed point at all or is there a constant movement which the mind and brain are incapable of following, living? And so the mind says there is cause and effect and it is held in that pattern.
克：我对此表示质疑。我们还看到，原因变成了结果，结果变成了原因。 没有固定的原因，没有固定的结果。如果有固定的原因，一切都是固定的。 那样就没有了解释、询问和移动的可能性。 橡子会长成橡树。根据这个原则，我们认为业力在运作。 现在，究竟有没有一个固定的点， 或者，有没有一种恒定的运动，而这颗头脑和大脑却无法跟随它、生活于其中？ 所以，这颗头脑说有因果链，并把它自己锁在那个链条中。
A: Is there such a thing as cause and effect? If there is a chain of cause-effect, at any point you can hold it. At the cause point where effect becomes the cause, that is the key to this. K: Who is to hold it? A: Where the effect becomes the cause, that is the point.
阿：有因果吗？如果存在因果链，那么在任何一个点上，你都可以握住它。 在结果变成原因的那一点上，就是关键。 克：谁去握住它？ 阿：在结果变成原因的那一点，那就是关键。
K: You insulted me yesterday, that is the cause. The insult may have been the result of my previous insult to you, and in reacting again there are a series of actions, modifications going on all the time. You insult me; at that moment, if I am totally aware, if the mind is totally aware, there is no cause-effect at all. You insult me. The response to that insult is from the old brain that has divided itself, that has been functioning in a pattern. At the moment of insult, for the old brain not to respond can only happen when there is complete attention. In that moment of attention there is no cause-effect.
克：你昨天侮辱了我，那就是原因。这个侮辱可能是我之前对你的侮辱的结果， 在不断的反应中，有一系列的行为，总是在修改的行为链。 你侮辱我；在那一刻，如果我完全地清醒，如果这颗头脑完全地清醒，就根本没有因果。 你侮辱我。对那个侮辱的回应来自于分裂的旧大脑，它一直以一种模式运作。 在侮辱的那一刻，要使得旧大脑不作出回应，只有在完全的关注下才能发生。 在那一刻的关注中，没有因果关系。
A: If there is no attention, it becomes the cause of another chain. Therefore, where an effect germinates itself into a new cause, it is there that action comes which is different. K: I do not think so. I insult you. That may be the result of my unconscious neglect of you. It has hurt you and you want to hurt me. The cause is my not greeting you, and the cause is I was interested in the birds, in the movement of their wings. I am an artist. I want to look at a bird in all its movements. Where is cause and where is effect? I see a movement of the leaves in the breeze, and I do not greet you. You are an old friend and you get insulted.
阿：如果不注意，它就会成为另一环链条的原因。 因此，当一个结果萌发成一个新的原因时，正是在那里，行为变得不同了。 克：我不这么认为。我侮辱你。那可能出于我一时对你的疏忽。 它伤害了你，你想伤害我。 原因是我没有问候你，是因为我对鸟儿感兴趣，对它们翅膀的扇动感兴趣。 我是一名艺术家。我想看看一只鸟的所有动作。 哪一个是原因，哪一个是结果？ 我看到树叶在微风中摆动，没有向你打招呼。 而作为老朋友的你，觉得自己被侮辱了。
J: The cause is in oneself. K: The observation of the movement is not in oneself. J: Insult arises within me, not within you. K: I have unintentionally given a cause to insult you. J: What makes me feel insulted is within me. Cause and effect are within me. K: You are saying, though I did not greet you, the very fact of that insult was born in you, not given to you. I am not at all sure. A: I have affection for you and I see you watching the bird, I will understand, but if I do not have affection, then I will blame you. So causation is always within. K: I see very clearly what you say.
贾：原因在自己身上。 克：对运动的观察不在自己身上。 贾：羞辱产生于我的内心，而不是你的内心。 克：我无意中制造出一个侮辱你的原因。 贾：让我觉得被侮辱的原因在我的内心里。因果在我的内心中。 克：你是说，虽然我没有问候你，但那种侮辱产生于你自己，而不是别人给你的。我完全不确定。 阿：我对你有感情，看到你在观察鸟，我就会理解；但是如果我没有感情，那么我就会怪你。 因此，原因总是在自己的内心。 克：我明白你的意思了。
A: It is not always a one to one relationship. Instead of saying this cause arises with this person, the general law is as follows: "Thus the whole thing arises with a matrix of not-knowing - avidya. You come to the focus of "I". In avidya is samskara, all that man has done. From that is consciousness, out of consciousness comes naming. These lead to the body and the six senses: then you see." Cause is used in a broad cosmic sense. But you start from the point of "I see" and start only from there.
阿：它不总是一对一的关系。 与其说这个原因产生于这个人，倒不如说普遍的规律如下: 这一切都产生于一个无知的母体 —— 无明。 你进入了‘我’的聚焦点。在这无明中，就是轮回，含藏着那个人做过的所有事情。 从那里生出意识，从意识里生出命名。 从这些生出身体和六种感觉；然后，你看。 原因在广义的宇宙意义上适用。 但是你从‘我看’开始，并且只从那里开始。
J: Sankara says you cannot say how ignorance began and he denied causation. Cause-effect can be ended. Before you go any further you have to exhaust the intellect. K: Is this part of Zen? A: No, Sir, it is not. Awakening of intelligence is not sui generis. J: You cannot bypass the intellect. We do not know how the process began, but we can end it. K: From the seed, multiple cell, till man appeared. From unitary cell it moves on.
贾：商羯罗说你不能说无知是如何开始的。他否定因果。因果是可以终结的。 在你进一步前进之前，你必须枯竭智力。 克：这是禅的一部分吗？ 阿：不，先生，它不是。智慧的觉醒不是自成一体的。 贾：你不能绕过智力。我们不知道这个过程如何开始，但是我们可以结束它。 克：从种子，多细胞，直到人类出现。从单细胞开始，它在前进。
A: The biologist does not go beyond manifestation. To assume it is a wrong thing. K: There is ignorance and there is always perception, sensation. A: Samskara is that which is put together. K: Put together in time which means evolution. A: Then you come to the next point, vijnana, which is consciousness.
阿：生物学家没有超越现象。去做这种假定是错误的。 克：存在着无知，总是存在着感知，感觉。 阿：那组装出来的，就是轮回。 克：花时间组装，就是进化。 阿：然后你就来到下一点，vijnana，也就是意识。
K: Is consciousness different from samskara? That which has been put together is consciousness. A: No Sir, it is the matrix. Within that comes your consciousness, my consciousness. K: Let us find out. A: The matrix is common to all of us. K: Samskara, you say, means put together. A: Literally it means tendencies.
克：意识和轮回不同吗？那组装出来的，就是意识。 阿：不，先生，它是母体。在母体里有你的意识，我的意识。 克：让我们找出来。 阿：母体对我们所有人都是共同的。 克：你说轮回意味着组装。 阿：从字面上讲，它意味着‘趋向’。
K: I am asking what is consciousness. Consciousness is made of content. Without the content, is there consciousness at all? The content of consciousness is consciousness. Content has been going on for centuries. A: Is content all or is it a segment? K: I see all my conditioning makes for consciousness.
克：我问什么是意识。 意识是由内容组成的。没有内容，还有意识吗？ 意识的内容就是意识。内容已经持续了几个世纪。 阿：内容是全部还是片段？ 克：我看到我所有的条件反射都是意识。
A: Man has existed for many, many years. Before his consciousness came into being, the matrix was already there. K: Thought began with the unitary cell. Man has lived for more than thirty-five thousand years; during that time he has collected all kinds of experiences. All that is consciousness. A: Out of this has come consciousness.
阿：人类已经存在了很多很多年。在他的意识出现之前，母体就已经存在了。 克：思想在单细胞时就产生了。 人类已经活了三万五千多年，在那段时间里，他积累了各种各样的经验。 那一切都是意识。 阿：意识从里面产生。
K: I do not separate the two. There is no separation of the two. If there is no content, there is no consciousness. In consciousness there are many fragments, and it is not one solid content. There are different levels, activities, attitudes, characteristics; all that is total consciousness. One part of that total consciousness, a fragment of that assumes importance. Then it says "I am consciousness" or "I am not consciousness", "I am this", "I am not this".
克：我不把两者分开。两者没有分别。如果没有内容，就没有意识。 意识中有很多碎片；它不是一个固定的内容。 有不同的层面，活动、态度、特征；那一切是全部的意识。 在这整体意识中，某个碎片认为它很重要。 然后它说‘我就是意识’ 或者说‘我不是意识’，‘我是这个’，‘我不是这个’。
A: You have made a distinction between consciousness which has different levels and that point at which it says "I am different". At that point it becomes different. R: "I" and the "not I", the division is there. A: Then there is a difference between the matrix and the self. K: Look, the content of consciousness is consciousness. Without the content there is no consciousness. The content is made up of various divisions - my family, your family, and all that; it is made up of fragmentation. One of the fragments assumes importance over all other fragments.
阿：你已经对意识进行了区分， 也就是存在不同层面的意识，以及说‘我是不同的’的那个点。 在那一点上，它变得不同。 拉：‘我’和‘非我’，这种划分就在那里。 阿：然后就有了母体和自我的区别。 克：看，意识的内容是意识。 没有内容就没有意识。 内容是由各个片区组成的 —— 我的家庭、你的家庭，以及所有的那一切；意识的内容是由碎片组成的。 而其中的一个碎片自认为比其他的碎片重要。
R: The classical way of saying this is, the reflection imagines it is the prototype. A: The moment there is the focus, the individualization starts. K: Be careful. This is very important. When you use the word "individual" it means indivisible, in himself, no fragment. So one fragment assumes the authority, the power to criticize, the censor - all within the area which we call consciousness. A: In the case of consciousness as the not-identified, what happens? K: I do not know a thing about identification.
拉：经典的说法是，这反映出的影像就是母体。 阿：一旦出现聚焦点，个体化就开始了。 克：小心。这非常重要。当你使用‘个体’这个词的时候，它意味着不可分割的，在他身上是没有碎片的。 因此一个碎片认为自己是权威，有批评的权力，是审查者 —— 这一切都在我们称之为意识的领域内。 阿：当意识未被认同的情况下，在发生什么？ 克：我对认同一无所知。
A: The moment identification starts the significance is that I identify myself with the part. That is the point of separation. K: Do not assert anything. The content of consciousness is consciousness. When there is no content there is no consciousness. In that content are tremendous factors of conflict, of fragmentation. One fragment assumes authority, one fragment does not identify itself with other fragments. It feels insecure - there are such vast conflicts there. It does not identify with any fragment, it does that only when it says "I like this, I do not like this". R: What is that "I"? A: It is my own past.
阿：在认同开始的那一刻，其意义在于我把我自己与这个部分相等同。 那一刻就是分裂的转折点。 克：不要断言任何事情。意识的内容就是意识。 当没有内容时，就没有意识。其中蕴含着巨大的冲突因素和分裂因素。 一个碎片具有权威性，一个碎片不等同于其它的碎片。 它感到不安全 —— 那里有如此巨大的冲突。 它不认同任何碎片，只有当它说‘我喜欢这个，我不喜欢这个’的时候，它才会这样做。 拉：那个‘我’是什么? 阿：它是我拥有的过去。
J: "I" is the fragment. A: Buddha said it is the totality of all impressions, the complex of impressions, which has created an identity for itself but which has no true identity. R: There is consciousness and it has immense diversity. K: There are many fragments. How is it that one fragment becomes important, and the importance then goes on? (Pause) I see something. There is the whole field of fragmentation, which is consciousness. When does the "I" come into being? A: Is it not implied in the field of consciousness itself? The "I" which comes out of it is latent in it. K: There are all these fragments. Why does the mind not leave it alone? I see my consciousness is made up of various fragments. Why does it not leave it alone? What takes place?
贾：‘我’是这个碎片。 阿：佛陀说，它是所有印象的总和，印象的复合体， 它为自己创造出一个身份，但那个身份却没有真实性。 拉：意识是存在的，它有着巨大的多样性。 克：存在着许多的碎片，为什么一个碎片变得重要，并将这种重要性持续了下去？(停顿) 我看到某些东西。这一整片分裂的领域，那就是意识。‘我’是什么时候出现的？ 阿：它不就隐含在意识领域内吗？从意识中冒出来的‘我’潜伏在意识里面。 克：那些碎片都在里面。为什么这颗头脑不让它在那呢？ 我看到我的意识由不同的碎片组成。为什么它要去管它呢？是什么情况？
A: Identification. K: There is fragmentation, contradiction, there is conflict. That is all that takes place. Conflict takes place. Within that conflict is the desire to end conflict. A: Where there is conflict, if I am not identified, it does not affect me. At that point it does not become conflict. K: There is only conflict, opposition, contradiction in consciousness. There is this field of consciousness which we have described. Where there is opposition, contradiction, that is the field of conflict. There may be fragments. Each fragment being fragmentary will produce conflict, pain, pleasure, sorrow, agony, despair. That is the field. Then what takes place?
阿：认同。 克：有分裂，矛盾，冲突。那就是所发生的一切。在发生冲突。 在这场冲突中，存在着结束冲突的的欲望。 阿：当出现了冲突，如果我没有产生认同，那么它就不会影响我。在那一点上，它没有变成冲突。 克：在意识中，只有冲突，对立和矛盾。也就是我们所描述的意识领域。 哪里存在对立和矛盾，哪里就有冲突。 可能存在着这些碎片，每一个碎片处于一种残破的状态，会产生冲突、痛苦、快乐、悲伤、挣扎、绝望。 那就是这个领域。然后，在发生什么？
A: I want to end it. K: Here this whole structure of consciousness is a battlefield. A: Why do you say so? Consciousness is full of irreconcilables. The moment I use the word "conflict" I have identified myself. K: This field of consciousness being divided is the source of conflict - India and Pakistan. I am a Hindu and you are a Muslim. The fact is, division inevitably brings conflict.
阿：我想结束它。 克：在这里，整个意识结构是一个战场。 阿：你为什么要这样说？意识中充满了不可调和之物。 当我使用‘冲突’这个词的那一刻，我就已经认同了我自己。 克：这片被分割的意识领域就是冲突的根源 —— 印度和巴基斯坦。 我是印度教徒，你是穆斯林。这个事实是：有分裂就有冲突。
A: That is so till you come to the point of naming; naming changes the quality. K: Look at the field of conflict. There is division. Where there is division there must inevitably be conflict - my family, your family, my God, your God. A: Does every divided fragment become aware?
阿：在你走到命名的地步之前就是那样；命名改变了这种品质。 克：看着这片冲突的领域 —— 分割。 哪里有分割，就必然有冲突 —— 我的家庭、你的家庭、我的上帝、你的上帝。 阿：每个分裂的碎片都会意识到吗？
K: I see the fact that where there is division there must be conflict. In this consciousness where there are so many fragments, there must be conflict. In the phenomenal world he is a Hindu and I am a Muslim, and that is breeding war and hatred. This is a simple, straight phenomenon. We all talk of unity and keep on with our divisions.
克：我看到了这个事实，哪里有分裂，哪里就一定会有冲突。 在这片有这么多碎片的意识中，必定有冲突。 在这纷繁的世界中，他是印度教徒，我是穆斯林，正在滋生战争和仇恨。 这是一个简单的、直接的现象。我们都在谈论团结，却维持着我们的分裂。
See, Sir, what takes place. In this field there is conflict, contradiction, fragmentation, division; when the conflict becomes acute then comes the "me" and "you". Otherwise I leave it alone. I float along in this conflict, but the moment conflict becomes acute - there is war, the Hindu-Muslim war, then I am a Hindu and you are a Muslim; identification takes place with something which I think is greater - with God, nation, idea.
看，先生，正在发生什么情况。在这个领域中存在着冲突、矛盾、碎片、分裂； 当冲突变得尖锐时，就出现了‘我’和‘你’。否则我就让它去吧。 我在这场冲突中随波逐流，在冲突变得尖锐的那一刻 —— 就是战争，印度教—穆斯林战争， 那时，我是印度教徒，你是穆斯林；认同发生了： 我与我认为更伟大的东西 —— 上帝、国家、理想，产生了认同。
So long as the conflict is mild, I leave it alone. My point is, as long as there is no conflict, there is no "I". There is no "I" if there is no conflict. We are saying, therefore, conflict is the measure of the "I". There was no conflict yesterday, there is conflict today, and I hope there will not be conflict tomorrow. This movement is the "I". This is the essence of the "I".
只要冲突是温和的，我就不管它。 我的观点是，只要没有冲突，就没有‘我’。 没有‘我’，如果没有冲突。因此，我们说，冲突是衡量‘我’的标准。 “昨天没有冲突，今天有冲突；因而，我希望明天不会有冲突。” 这个运动就是‘我’。这就是‘我’的本质。
A: There are many other facets. K: Is the tree different from the branches? It may have ten hundred branches. The structure of consciousness is based on this conflict. We are not discussing how to end conflict. R: The traditional view is, division is the "I" and the separation from the conflict is also "I". A: As long as conflict is not observed, is hidden, "I" is not. R: Does this all begin here or does the arising of "I" go deeper? K: Is there a self, the "I", which is to be studied, or is the "I" a movement?
阿：还有许多其他的方面。 克：一棵树可能有一万条分支，但是树与树枝不同吗？ 意识的结构就是以这种冲突为基础的。我们不是在讨论如何结束冲突。 拉：传统的观点认为，分裂就是‘我’，与冲突的分离也是‘我’。 阿：只要冲突没有被观察到，处于潜伏状态，就没有‘我’。 拉：这一切都是从这里开始的吗，还是‘我’的产生更深？ 克：这个自我，这个‘我’，这个要研究的，是否存在？或者，这个‘我’是一种运动？
A: You say the "I" begins as a movement in consciousness. K: No. There is an assumption that the "I" is static. Is it so? Is the "I" something to be learnt about? Or is the "I" a movement? Do I learn about something or do I learn in movement? The former is non-existent. It is fallacious, it is an invention. So the central fact is division. It is the source of all conflict. That conflict may take different shapes, levels, but it is the same. Conflict may be pleasant, I may like to be bullied, beaten by my wife, but it is a part of the structure of conflict.
阿：你说‘我’始于意识的运动。 克：不是。有一种假设是‘我’是静态的。它是吗？ 这个‘我’是某个需要学习的东西吗？还是说‘我’是一个运动？ 我是在学习某个东西呢，还是我在运动中学习？ 前者是不存在的，它是骗人的，是一个虚构出来的发明物。 所以核心事实是分裂。它是所有冲突的根源。 那个冲突可能具有不同的形式和层次，但它是是相同的。 冲突可能是快乐的，我可能喜欢被妻子欺负、打骂，但它是冲突结构的一部分。
R: The nature of consciousness is conflict. K: It is not its nature. Consciousness is conflict. If I have no conflict, what happens to me? A: You say there is no "I" if there is no conflict. Does that mean the state of non-conflict is non-consciousness? R: The state of non-conflict is beyond conflict. The dimension in which we live is conflict. A: Sir, I said intensification of conflict includes naming. K: Naming is all included in this. The average man swims along till a conflict becomes acute.
拉：意识的性质是冲突。 克：这不是它的性质。意识就是冲突。如果我没有冲突，我出现了什么情况？ 阿：你说，如果没有冲突就没有‘我’。那是否意味着没有冲突的状态是无意识的？ 拉：没有冲突的状态超越了冲突。我们生活的维度就是冲突。 阿：先生，我说过冲突的激化包括命名。 克：命名都被包括在其中。普通人一直随波逐流，直到冲突变得尖锐。
A: When conflict becomes acute, then naming starts. K: What is naming? Why do we need naming at all? Why do I say "my wife", why? Investigate it. A: At one level it is for communication, at another level it is subtle. K: Why do I say "She is my wife?" R: We want to prolong that "which is". A: Because I want a continuity in that. K: Sir, I say "my wife; why? A: Security, I want to hold on to her.
阿：当冲突变得尖锐时，命名就开始了。 克：什么是命名？为什么我们要命名？为什么我说“我的妻子”，为什么？调查它。 阿：在一个层面上，是为了沟通，在另一个层面上，就很是微妙。 克：我什么我说‘她是我的妻子’？ 拉：我们想延长这种身份。 阿：因为我想要一种延续。 克：先生，我说她是我的妻子；为什么？ 阿：为了安全，我想抓住她。
K: Look, I say the word is not the thing. It never is. The word is only a means of communication. The fact is not the word. The fact that she is "my wife" is legally true, but what have I done when I say it? Why have I named it? To give continuity, to strengthen the image I have built? I possess her or she possesses me, for sex, for comfort and so on. All these strengthen the image about her. The image is there to establish her as mine. In the meanwhile, she is changing; is looking at another man. I do not acknowledge her freedom, and I do not acknowledge freedom at all, for myself. So what have I done when I say she is my wife?
克：看吧，我说这个名字不是这个东西。它永远不是。 这个文字只是一种交流手段。这真实的东西不是这个词。 她是‘我的妻子’这个事实在法律上是真实的，但是当我说出来时，我做了什么？为什么我要给它命名？ 为了延续，为了加强我建立起来的印象？我占有她或者她占有我，为了性，为了舒服等等。 这一切都强化了关于她的印象。这个印象是为了将她确定为我的。 与此同时，她在变化；她在看别的男人。 我不承认她的自由，为了我自己，我根本不承认自由。 那么，当我说她是我的妻子的时候，我做了什么？
A: You are saying we do not like movement, we like everything static. K: I want to possess her, and that is why I need her. The brain cells establish a pattern of habit and refuse to leave habit. A: The entire consciousness is words, knowledge. I want to understand this, what you are saying. K: Knowledge is put together. Knowledge horizontally or vertically is put together. Knowledge is a process. Process implies time. Time implies thought. So through thought, through knowledge, through time, you are trying to find something which is out of time, which is not knowledge, which is not thought. You cannot. A: The whole process which we have described must also be non-verbal.
阿：你说我们不喜欢动态的，我们喜欢静止的东西。 克：我想占有她，这就是我为什么需要她。脑细胞建立起一个习惯的模式并且拒绝离开这个习惯。 阿：整个意识是言词、知识。我想理解这，你所说的话。 克：知识是组装起来的。通过水平排列，或垂直叠加，被放在一起。知识是一种过程。 过程就意味着时间。时间意味着思想。 因此，通过思想，通过知识，通过时间，你试图找到某种超越时间的、不属于知识的、不属于思想的东西。 你不可能做到。 阿：我们描述的整个过程必定也是非语言的。
K: The use of words is to communicate, to share together something common between two people. The common factor between human beings is despair, agony, sorrow. Can this be dispelled through time or can they be dispelled instantly? Is this process to be ended with words or without words? The word is not the thing. You may describe the most marvellous food, but the description is not the food. A: Use of words demands a complete understanding of the field of knowledge.
克：使用语言是为了交流，一起分享两个人的共同点。 人类之间的共同因素是绝望、痛苦、悲伤。 这可以通过时间来消除吗？还是可以立即消除？ 这个过程的结束，是使用言词还是不用言词？词不是这个东西。 你可以描述最美味的食物，但是描述本身并不是食物。 阿：要使用言词，必须对知识领域有一个完全的理解。
K: Words are necessary to communicate. Communication means sharing together common problems. The word is not the thing, but we have to use the word in order to understand the thing. Why do we make words so important? Words are meant to communicate. We have to be precise. A: In order that communication takes place there have to be words. K: When does communication take place - the sharing together of a common problem? A: It can take place non-verbally.
克：在交流中，需要语言。 交流意味着一起分享共同的问题。 这个词不是这个东西，但我们必须使用这个词来理解这个东西。 为什么我们把文字变得如此重要？文字是为了交流。我们必须精确。 阿：为了进行交流，必须有文字。 克：什么时候交流 —— 共同分享一个共同的问题？ 阿：可以用非语言的形式进行交流。
K: To me communication means sharing together, thinking together, creating together, understanding. When are we together? Surely, not on the verbal level alone. We are together to share the problem, when we are tremendously vital, passionate, at the same level with the same intensity. When does this happen? It happens when you love something. When you love, it is finished. I kiss you, and I hold your hand, it is finished. When we lack that thing, we spin around with words. I am sure all the professionals miss that.
克：对我来说，交流意味着一起分享，一起思考，一起创造，一起理解。 我们什么时候在一起？当然，不仅仅是在言词层面上。 我们在一起分享问题，当我们非常有活力，充满激情，处于相同的水平和相同的强度时。 什么时候会发生这种情况？当你爱某人时，它发生。 当你爱的时候，它就完成了。我吻你，我握住你的手，就完成了。 当我们缺少那时，我们就用文字兜圈子。 我肯定所有的专家们都错过了那。
So our problem is how to meet, to come together at the same time, at the same level, with the same intensity. That is the real question. We do that when there is sex which we call love. Otherwise you battle for yourself and I battle for myself. This is the problem. Can I, who am in sorrow, say, "Let us come together, let us talk it over", and not talk of what Nagarjuna, Sankara and others say.
因此，我们的问题是，如何在同一时间，同一水平，以同样的强度遇见彼此，走到一起。 这才是真正的问题。当我们有被称之为爱的性行为时，我们会这样做。 否则你为自己而战，我为自己而战。这就是问题所在。 我这个忧愁的人，能不能说“让我们走到一起，让我们来讨论它”， 而不是谈论龙树菩萨、商羯罗和其他人所说的话。