12 THE PARADOX OF CAUSATION 因果关系的悖论

K: All this implies time, does it not? That is, anything put together, horizontal or vertical, is time. Cause and effect are in time. Cause becoming effect and the effect being the cause, are all within the field of time. Whether I move my hand up this way or that, whether the movement is linear or vertical - all these are in within the field of time. Are you asking, Sir, can we move out of time? S: No. The experience of a physical law is within time. One does not ask questions within that law and what option does one have?

克：这一切都意味着时间，不是吗？ 任何水平的或垂直的聚在一起的事物，都是时间。 也就是说，任何拼凑在一起的东西，在水平或垂直方向上，都属于时间。 因果在时间的领域中。原因转化为结果，结果转化为原因。都在时间的范畴之内。 无论我以这样的方式还是以那向上地移动我的手，无论移动是水平的还是垂直的 —— 这一切都在时间的领域内。 先生，你是问我们能不能脱离时间？ 乔：不，对物理规律的经验在时间之内。 一个人不会在那规律内提出问题。那个人有什么选择？

S: Where is the way out of the paradox? K: The intellect, thought functions there. And we are trying to find an answer here as a physicist, biologist, mathematician, as a bourgeois or as a sannyasi. S: But there are laws in physics. K: Of course there are. This is anyhow a madhouse and we are trying to find an answer within this. This is a fact. I have to accept it as it is. Then my question is, is there an action which is not of this? Here all action is fragmentary. You are a religious man, I am a scientist. In this everything is in a state of fragmentation.

乔：摆脱悖论的出路在哪里？ 克：智力和思想在那里发挥作用。 而我们尝试像物理学家、生物学家、数学家、资产阶级印度僧人一样，在这里寻找答案。 乔：但是物理学中存在着规律。 克：当然有。无论如何，这就是一个疯人院，而我们正试图在里面寻找答案。这是一个事实。 我必须接受它。那么我的问题是，有没有一个行动不属于这儿？在这儿，所有行动都是破碎的。 你是一个有宗教信仰的人，我是一个科学家。在这里面，一切都处于一种破裂的状态。

S: Fragmentation carries laws. K: Of course, but these laws have not solved human problems. Apart from physics you are a human being. Take the problem as it is, that human beings live in fragments, that society is broken up. There is fragmentation. And thought is responsible for this. S: Thought is also responsible for all the other things. K: Surely. The priests, the inventions, the discoveries, the Gods, the yogis, everything. So that is what actually is. The problem is how we live here and find something else. You cannot. The question is not how to integrate the various fragments, but how is it possible to live without fragmentation?

乔：分裂是有规律的。 克：当然。但是这些规律并没有解决人类的问题。除了是一名物理学家，你也是一个人。 就拿这个问题来说吧，人类生活在碎片中，社会是破碎的。 存在着碎片化。思想对此负有责任。 乔：思想也对所有其他事情负有责任。 克：当然。思想对发明、发现、神、瑜伽师，对一切负有责任。 那么，那就是实际状况。问题是我们要如何在这里生活并找到另一种东西。你不能。 问题不在于如何整合各种碎片，而在于如何没有碎片化地生活。

S: To the extent to which it is possible, you have no questions. At that point it ceases to be physics. At that level I am no longer a physicist. K: Of course. You are first a human being, a non-fragmentary human being. Your action can then be a non-fragmentary action. S: For the non-fragmented person physics does not exist.

乔：在可能的范围内，你没有问题。 在那一点上，它不再是物理学。在那个层面上，我不再是一名物理学家。 克：当然，你首先是一个人，一个非碎片化的人。你的行为可以是非碎片化的行为。 乔：对于非碎片化的人而言，物理学是不存在的。

K: What is the importance of an artist? S: He transports people into states which they themselves are not able to reach. Still fragmentary, but different. K: Being fragmented, he needs self-expression and the self is part of the fragmentation. So would you deny the artist his function? Now the physicist is important. But he does not come before the universe, the human heart, the human mind. He is as important or not important as the artist.

克：艺术家的重要性是什么？ 乔：他将人们引入到他们自己无法到达的状态。依旧是零碎的，但有所不同。 克：处在破碎中，他需要自我表达，而这个自我就是碎片的一部分。 那么，你会否认艺术家的功能吗？现在，物理学家很重要。 但是他没有领先于宇宙、心灵和头脑。他和艺术家一样重要或者不重要。

S: There is a difference in the quality. The artist is usually non-clear. K: The artist is clear in his feeling, but the expression goes wrong because he is conditioned to objectivism, non-objectivism and all that. So, can I live in this world non-fragmentarily; not as a Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, communist, but as a human being?

乔：在品质是有区别的。艺术家通常是不清晰的。 克：艺术家的感觉是清晰的，但是表达出了问题， 因为它被客观主义、非客观主义等等所限制。 因此，我能不分裂地活在这个世界上，不去做印度教徒、佛教徒、基督教徒、共产主义者，而是做一个人类？

S: Why not just live; why the word "human"? K: The way we live is not human at all. It is a battle - country, wife, children, the boss - we live that way. We are at war with each other. If you call that living, I say that is not it. This perpetual struggle is not living. S: Life is not a perpetual struggle all the time. K: But most of the time it is. The window is closed.

乔: 为什么不这样活着；为什么用‘人类’这个词？ 克：我们的活法根本不是人类的活法。它是一场战斗 —— 国家、妻子、孩子、老板 —— 我们就是这样生活的。 我们彼此在交战。 如果你把它称为生活。我说它不是。它是一种无休止的争斗，不是生活。 乔：生活不总是一场不休的挣扎。 克：但大多数时间是这样，这扇窗被关闭了。

S: But why the word "human"? K: Sir, I did not use the word "individual". You know the meaning of the word "individual" - one who is indivisible. Man is not. So one realizes this fact of fragmentation, time and the constant battle for position, power, prestige, success, domination and the effort to escape from all this to reach enlightenment through the mantra, through yoga. How is this everlasting chattering, that is going on all the time, to come to an end? Is it at all possible not to be fragmented? How is it possible for the brain cells themselves to be quiet, because that is the mechanism of time, because that is being put together slowly over years. That is what we call evolution. That is the central question.

乔：但是为什么要用‘人类’这个词呢？ 克：先生，我没有使用‘个人’这个词。 你知道‘个人’这个词的含义 —— 一个不可分割的人。而人却不是。 因此一个人意识到这种分裂的事实：时间和不断地争夺地位、权力、威望、成功、统治 以及通过咒语、瑜伽去觉悟，努力地去摆脱这一切。 这种永无止歇的喋喋不休，要如何结束？ 有没有可能不支离破碎？ 脑细胞们能安静下来吗？ 因为那是时间的机制， 因为那是多年来慢慢形成的产物。是我们所谓的‘进化’。那就是问题的核心。

S: And that is rightly so. You bring the problem back to physics, because physics talks about the external universe but it does not talk about brain cells. If you had only a fragment of reality, then you do not accept it as consistent. If it is consistent, then it is fiction. Could the fragment be self-consistent? K: I would put it this way. I would suggest, is it possible for a human being to be a physicist and be self-consistent without fragmenting himself? I see time is the central factor. Thought is the response of memory, thought is time.

乔：没错。 你把这个问题又带回到了物理学，因为物理学讨论外部宇宙，但不谈论脑细胞。 如果你只有现实的一个片段，那么你不会接受它是一致的。 如果它是一致的，那么就是伪造。这个片段能自洽吗？ 克：我会这么说。我会这么建议: 一个人有没有可能成为一个物理学家，在不分裂自己的情况下保持自洽？ 我看到时间是核心因素。思想是记忆的这种回应，思想是时间。

S.: For the experiencer... K: The experiencer is the experienced, the observer is the observed. The observer is over there and looks at it. There is space and time. The observer separates himself through conclusions, images, formulas, etc., and so creates space and time, and this is one of the major fragmentations. Can the observer look without the observed who is the maker of time, space, distance? After all, Sir, how do you discover anything, say, as a physicist? S: I am peculiar, I invent them. K: There must be a period in which the inventor is silent. S: Yes.

乔：对于体验者来说…… 克：体验者是被体验者，观察者是被观察者。观察者在那里，看着它。 那就是空间和时间。 观察者通过结论、图象、规则等将自己划分出来，从而创造出空间和时间，这就是一个主要的碎片。 这个时间、空间和距离制造者，能不携带他的制造品去看吗？ 毕竟，先生，作为一名物理学家，你是如何发现任何东西的？ 乔：我很特别，我发明它们。 克：必定有一段时间，在这段时间里，发明者是安静的。 乔：是的。

K: If he is constantly in movement, there is continuity. There must be a break. In that he sees something new. The observer sees through the image and it is continued in time. And so he cannot see anything new. If I look at my wife with the image of years, and I call that relationship, there is nothing new in that. So is it possible to see something new without the observer? The observer is time. Can I look at "what is", the fragmented without the observer that is time? Can there be a perception without the perceiver? S: There is no perception without the perceiver, but the perceived is sort of waiting to be perceived.

克：如果他一直在动，就会有连续性。 必须有一个断点，在里面，他看见某个新的东西。 观察者透过印象去看，在时间之中，这种印象被延续。因此他不能看到任何新东西。 如果我去看我的妻子，携带着岁月雕琢出来的印象，我称之为‘关系’，那里面没有任何新东西。 因此，有可能不携带着观察者去看某个新的东西？ 观察者是时间。我能不携带这位观察家去看‘什么是’，这破裂的东西吗？ 感知者缺席的时候，能感知吗？ 乔：没有感知者就没有感知，但被感知者似乎在等待着被感知。

K: The tree is there all the time without the perceiver, and the perceiver is looking at it through fragmentation, through the censor. Can the censor be absent and yet be observed? S: Certainly not. Perception is a single act. There is no possibility of breaking it up. K: Who is the censor? Who is the perceiver? Who is using the verb "to perceive"?

克：树一直在那里，没有感知者， 感知者正在通过碎片，通过监察员去看它。 这位审查员可以下台，并且被观察吗？ S：当然不能。感知是一个单一的行为。不可能打断它。 克：谁是监察员？谁是感知者？谁在使用‘感知’这个动词？

S: When you are perceiving, you do not talk about the perceiver. K: I look at the tree with knowledge. Can the observer observe without the past? Who is the thinker, the examiner? S: When you perceive, you do not need all this. K: There is the tree. Can I look at it without the observer? S.: Yes. K: There is only that. Then the perceiver comes into operation. So the image-maker can look without the image. Otherwise you cannot invent.

乔：当你在感知时，你不会谈论感知者。 克：我携带着知识去看那棵树。观察者可以不带过去观察吗？谁是这位思想者，这位检察长？ 乔：当你感知时，你不需要这一切。 克：树在那里。我可以在没有观察者的情况下看它吗？ 乔：可以。 克：只有那个。然后感知者才开始运作。 所以，印象的制造者可以不带着印象去看。否则你就无法发明。

S: We were talking about communication. If time itself is the product of thinking, then how can thinking be imprisoned in time? Then what makes time common to all people? M: Different people have the same notion of time. K: I wonder if they do. M: Can it be answered? K: Why do you want a concept of time? You look at the watch, you have no concept about it. S: The idea of time as movement is associated with the watch. K: Within the rising and setting of the sun, there is numerical time, but is there any other psychological, inward time? S: There is another time when you think of action in the future. K: So time is the movement of the past through the present to the future. That is time. S: Time is part of thought. K: Time is thought. Time is sorrow.

乔：我们谈论的是交流。 如果时间本身是思想的产物，那么思想怎么会被禁锢在时间中呢？ 那么，为什么所有人都这种普遍的时间概念呢？ 莫：不同的人对时间有着同样的概念。 克：我想知道他们是不是这样。 莫：能回答吗？ 克：为什么你想拥有一种时间概念？你看手表，而你对它没有任何概念。 乔：作为运动的时间观念与手表有关。 克：在太阳的升起和落下之中，存在着用数字表示的时间，还有心理的、内在的时间吗？ 乔：当你想到未来的行动时，就有另一种时间。 克：因此，时间是过去从现在到未来的运动。这就是时间。 乔：时间是思想的一部分。 克：时间是思想。时间是悲伤。

S: How can thought transcend itself? What is the significance of saying that thought cannot transcend itself? K: But it is all the time trying it. Let me put it this way. What is the validity of time? I have to go from here to there, from this house to the other house, from one continent to another continent; I will be a manager of this factory - all that involves time, which is being put together, in sequence or not in sequence.

乔：思想如何超越自身？声称‘思想不能超越它自己’有什么意义？ 克：但它一直在尝试。让我这样说吧，时间的有效性是什么？ 我必须从这里到那里，从这间屋子到另一间屋子，从一个大陆到另一个大陆； 我会成为这个工厂的经理 —— 所有这一切都涉及时间，这些时间是按顺序或不按顺序排列的。

S: There is a great limitation to this. Time is single but experiences are not single. Time is one dimensional: one string with beads collected on it. Experience connected together gives you an impression of time, but time itself is one dimension, a single string. You can think of different strands and scales of time. They are a string of time. The connectivity of things can be complex. We do not experience the multiple connectivity of it. We can, of course, experience several things together; for example, I am listening to you, part of my mind may be thinking of something else, I may be shaking my toe; because my understanding is functioning, I watch all that. I see a series of pictures but I do not live anything.

乔：这有很大的局限性。时间是单一的，然而体验却不是。 时间是一维的，如一条穿着珠子的线。 串在一起的体验给你一种时间的印象，但是时间本身是一维的，是单独的一条线。 你可以想到不同的时间线和尺度。 它们是一串时间。事物的联系可能很复杂。我们没有体验到它多重的关联性。 当然，我们可以同时体验几种事物， 例如，我在听你说话，我的一部分头脑可能在想别的事情，我可能在晃动我的脚趾； 因为我正在理解，我看到那一切。我看到一系列的画面，可我却没有生活于其中。

K: That means the self is absent. S: There is no single self. K: That is, there is no centre. S: There is no centre which has time in it. K: That means in oneself there is no fragmentation at all. At the very core of one's being, there is no fragmentation. S: Put that way, one sees there is a state in which there is no fragmentation.

克：那意味着自我是缺席的。 乔：没有单一的自我。 克：是的，没有中心。 乔：它里面没有时间。 克：这意味着一个人本身根本没有碎片。一个人存在的核心是没有分裂。 乔：那样的话，一个人看到一种没有碎片的状态。

K: Can one find out a quality in which there is no fragmentation, which means the ending of thought; thought breeds fragmentation, which is time? Look, Sir, when you go through the world there are separate actions - social, political, communal, the hippy action - all fragmented. Is there an action which is not fragmented but which will cover all that? S: When you use the word "action", action is associated with time. K: I mean the active present. S: Yes, it is.

克：一个人能找到一种没有分裂的状态，也就是思想的结束吗？ 思想滋生分裂，也就是时间。 看，先生，当你走过这个世界时，有各种分裂的行为 —— 社会的、政治的、公开的、嬉皮士的行为 —— 都是支离破碎的。 是否有一个行为，不是支离破碎的，却会涵盖所有这些？ 乔：当你使用‘行为’这个词时， 行为与时间有关。 克：我是指处于活动状态的现在。 乔：是的，它是。

K: It means there is a quality of mind in which there is no fragmentation at all. It is active present all the time. What relationship has all this with love? What is the relationship between me, you and the artist? I think that is the core of relationship. Love has been reduced to sex and all the morality round it. If love is not there, fragmentation will go on. You will be a physicist, I will be something and we will communicate, discuss, but they are mere words. S: How do you communicate? There has been some communication after you have talked. How do I understand that? How is it that I understand it? K: What does the word "communication" mean? You and I have something in common. Common implies sharing.

克：那意味着存在一种完全没有分裂的品质。它一直处于活动状态。 这一切与爱有什么关系？我、你和艺术家之间是什么关系？ 我认为这是关系的核心。爱已经沦为性和围绕它的所有道德观念。 如果没有爱，分裂就会继续下去。 你会成为一个物理学家，我会成为别的某个人物，我们会交流、讨论，却仅仅是一些空话。 乔：你是如何交流的？当你说了之后，就有了某些交流。 我怎么理解呢？我理解了它又会如何？ 克：‘交流’这个词是什么意思？你和我有一些共同点。共同意味着分享。

S: How is it possible to share? K: Wait, we are using time to communicate. "Common" implies that both of us want to understand, examine, share an issue together. I am not giving, you are not receiving. We are sharing. So a relationship of sharing is established. You are not sitting on the platform and I on the ground. What really happens when you share a problem like sorrow in human beings? It is tremendous. S: At the time you are sharing sorrow, after a while you do not see the person. I can understand that with deep personal emotions, but with an idea it is not possible.

乔：怎样才能分享？ 克：等一等，我们正在利用时间进行交流。 而‘共同’意味着我们俩想要一起理解、检查、分享一个问题。 我不是在给与，你也不是在接受。我们正在分享。因此建立了一种共享关系。 你不是坐在台上，我不是坐在地上。 当你分享人类的悲伤等问题时，到底在发生什么？它是巨大的。 乔：在你分享悲伤的时候，过了一会儿，你就看不到那个人了。 我能用深刻的个人情感来理解这一点，但是当有了想法后，就不可能理解它了。

K: What is the point of sharing ideas? S: We share insights. K: Which is understanding. But ideas are not understanding. On the contrary, formulas about understanding prevent understanding. Sir, when you share together, what takes place? Both of us have the same intensity, at the same time, at the same level. That is love. Otherwise there is no sharing. After all, Sir, to understand something together, I must forget all my experiences, prejudices, and so must you. Otherwise we cannot share. Have you ever discussed with a Communist, with a Catholic? S: I try to understand him. K: But he will not understand you. That is simple. Take Chardin. He may have travelled extensively, covered a wide canvas, but he was fixed as a Catholic. You cannot share with a man who is fixed. Sharing implies love. Can a man who is fixed in a certain attitude, can he love?

克：分享想法有什么意义？ 乔：我们分享洞察。 克：也就是理解。但想法不是理解。 相反，关于理解的规则阻碍了理解。 先生，当你一起分享时，会发生什么？我们俩的热情相同、时间相同、水平相当。 那就是爱。否则没有共享。 毕竟，先生，要一起理解某个东西，我必须忘记我所有的经历和偏见，你也必须忘记。 否则我们无法分享。 你有没有和共产党员、天主教徒讨论过？ 乔：我试着理解他。 克：但是他不会理解你。这很简单。 以查尔丹为例。他可能旅行过很多地方，游历广泛，但他固守为天主教徒。 你不能和一个固定的人分享。分享意味着爱。 一个固执于某种态度的人，能爱吗？

S: He can have mystical experiences. K: Because he is conditioned. He sees Krishna, Christ. He sees what he wants to. The question is whether the mind can uncondition itself? Not through time, for when the mind uses time to undo time, it is still within time. Real understanding is out of time. There is so little of love, of sharing, but of the other there is plenty. (Pause) Sir, here we ask the question what is meditation? Whether the mind can be free of all its content because consciousness is made up of the content? M: Most often when you talk of understanding you think of one individual. To have communication you must have two minds. Also there are some thoughts which occur to me. I may later on find out it has already occurred to other people, but are there thoughts which arise only when two people are together? S: M says there are situations when two people have ideas together which neither could have got independently.

乔：他可能有神秘的经历。 克：因为他被局限了，所以他看到克利须那，基督，他看到了他想要看到的东西。 问题在于头脑能使自己不受约束？不是通过时间，因为当头脑用时间去消除时间，它依然处于时间之内。 真正的理解脱离了时间。 爱和分享是如此之少，而其它的却有很多。（暂停） 先生，在这里我们问一个问题，什么是冥想？ 头脑是否可以摆脱它的所有内容，因为意识是由内容组成的？ 莫：大多数时候，当你谈到理解时，你会想到一个人。要交流，就必须有两颗头脑。 我自己也有一些思想冒出。 之后，我可能会发现别人已经想到了， 但是，只有当两个人在一起时才会产生思想吗？ 乔：莫里斯说，有些想法只有当两个人一起交流时才会产生，而一个人无法独自获得那个想法。

S: Neither for good nor evil. K: Yes, like a flower - take it or leave it, because through communication we discover something together, and without communication can I discover something without verbalizing? When you and I have a common interest, and intensity at the same level and at the same time, then communion is possible non-verbally. I do not have to tell you "I love you". I think we are caught so much in words, in linguistic, semantic enquiry. The word is not the thing. The description is not the described.

乔：既非为了善，也非为了恶。 克：是的，就像一朵花 —— 要么接受它，要么离开它，因为通过交流，我们一起发现了一些东西， 没有交流，我可以在没有语言的情况下发现一些东西吗？ 当你和我有共同的兴趣，并且处于同一层次和同一时刻，那么非语言的共融是有可能的。 我不必告诉你‘我爱你’。 我认为我们被语言，语义学的探究所困。文字不等于事物。描述不等于被描述的事物。

S: And since this high level of communication is not a technique or a skill, the question arises, how does one learn anything? A child is able to learn. K: Is learning a process of accumulation? That is what we do. I learn Italian, store up the words, then I speak. This is what we call learning. Is there learning which is non-accumulation? The two are totally different actions. S: May I ask something? It may be totally irrelevant, but you will understand. Is there "the other"? Are there "other" people? K: It all depends upon what you mean by "the other", "the other people". S: Most times there is multiplicity - but there is also aloneness. K: Obviously.

乔：既然这种高水平的沟通不是一种技术或技能，那么问题来了，一个人如何学习任何东西？孩子是能够学习的。 克：学习是一个积累的过程吗？那就是我们所做的。我学习意大利语，储存单词，然后我说话。 这就是我们所说的学习。有没有非积累的学习？两者是完全不同的行为。 乔：我可以问一下吗？这个问题可能完全无关紧要，但是你会理解的。有‘另一个’吗？有‘别人’吗？ 克：这完全取决于你所说的‘另一个’、‘别人’的含义。 乔：大多数的时候有相重性，但也有独立性。 克：当然。

S: Since aloneness is real... K: Why do you call aloneness real and the other unreal? We know loneliness, resistance, the dual movement of action, defensive or aggressive action, being caught in thought, and that brings greater isolation - we and they, my party and yours. Now can the mind go beyond isolation, beyond resistance which means can it be completely alone? Not in the sense of isolation. It is only then that I discover something new, that which is real.

乔：因为独立是真实的…… 克：为什么你把独立称为真实的，而说其它的是不真实的？ 我们知道孤独、反抗、行为上的矛盾运动，防卫或攻击性行为，被思想所困， 那带来了更大的孤立 —— 我们和他们，我的党和你的党。 现在，头脑能走出孤立，远离抵抗吗？也就是它可以完全独立吗？不是那种隔离的感觉。 只有在那时，我才发现某些新东西，那真实的东西。

S: I have experience of that state, but you caught me at that point when you asked me, "why do you divide". There are two situations. There are states when I do not see multiplicity and there are states in which I see multiplicity. I have a feeling that the states in which I see multiplicity are falling off.

乔：我经历过那种状态，但当你问我‘为什么要分裂’时，你困住了我。 存在两种情况，一种是我没看到相重性，一种是我看到了相重性。 我有一种感觉，我看到的相重性正在降低。

K: Be careful, Sir. You are caught. Falling off - what do you mean, that is time. Anything that you can get rid of slowly is time, whereas the other does not involve time at all. So do not get caught, Sir. (Pause) So is there a perception and action without time? I see danger, physical, and there is instant action. I do not say I will gradually withdraw from danger. So is there a perception of this sense of loneliness, resistance? Is there a perception, a seeing the danger of it completely, and the very seeing is the getting rid of it? S: If you see the whole thing completely, there is no falling off. It is not there. M: That is, there is no preparing for it.

克：当心，先生。你陷进去了。降低 —— 你是指什么意思？那是时间。 你可以慢慢降低的任何东西都是时间，而另一个则根本不涉及时间。 所以不要被困住，先生。(停顿) 那么，有没有非时间的感知和行动呢？我看到危险，在身体上的，并且立即采取行动。 我不说我会逐渐脱离危险。 那么，有对这种孤独感、抗拒感的感知吗？ 有没有一种感知，一种完全看到它的危险，而看见就是摆脱它？ 乔：如果你完整地看到整个事情，就没有降低。它不存在。 男：也就是说，不存在准备。

S: This statement is at variance with my experience. I have experienced timeless moments. I loved it. I have a memory of it. K: Leave it alone, Sir. S: When I hold it, then it is pleasure. K: That is what it is. Pleasure is the one main ruling principle.

乔：这种说法与我的经历不符。我经历过时间的消失。我爱它。我拥有对它的记忆。 克：别管它，先生。 乔：当我握住它的时候，它就是快乐。 克：那就是它。快乐是一个主要的统治原则。