P: Where is the resting place of beauty? Where does it reside? Obviously, the outer manifestations of beauty are observable; the right relationship between space, form and colour and between human beings. But what is the essence of beauty? In Sanskrit texts three factors are equated - the Truth, the Good, the Beautiful - Satyam, Sivam, Sundaram. K: What are you trying to find out? Do you want to find out the nature of beauty? What do the professionals say? P: Traditionalists would say - Satyam, Sivam, Sundaram. The artist today would not differentiate between the seemingly ugly and the seemingly beautiful, but would regard the creative act as the expression of a moment, of a perception that gets transformed within the individual and finds expression in the action of the artist.

普：美的栖居之地在哪里？它驻留在哪里？ 显然，美的外在表现是可以观察到的； 空间、形式和色彩之间以及人与人之间的正确关系。但美的本质是什么？ 在梵文文本中，有三个因子是等同的 ——真理、善、美 ——萨蒂扬、西瓦姆、桑达拉姆。 克：你在找什么？你想找出美的本质吗？专业人士怎么说？ 普：传统主义者会说 —— 萨蒂扬、西瓦姆、桑达拉姆。 今天的艺术家不会区分看似丑陋和看似美丽的东西， 而是把创造性的行为看作是一瞬间的表达， 一种属于个人的内在转化的感知的表达， 在艺术家的行为中，表达了出来。

K: You are asking what is beauty, what is the expression of beauty, and how does the individual fulfil himself through beauty? What is beauty? If you started as though you knew nothing about it, what would your reaction be? This is a universal problem with the Greeks, the Romans and with modern people. So what is beauty? Does it lie in the sunset, in a lovely morning, in human relationship, in the mother and the child, husband and wife, man and woman? Does it lie in the beauty of an extraordinarily subtle movement of thought and the beauty of clear perception? Is that what you call beauty?

克：你问什么是美， 什么是美的表达，个人如何通过美实现他自己？ 美是什么？如果你一开始好像对它一无所知，你会有什么反应？ 这是一个普遍的问题，希腊人、罗马人和现代人都在问。 那么，什么是美？ 它是否存在于夕阳中，存在于一个美好的早晨， 存在于人类的关系中，存在于母亲和孩子，丈夫和妻子，男人和女人的关系中？ 它是否存在于一种极其微妙的思想运动的美和清晰感知的美？ 这就是你所说的美吗？

P: Can there be beauty also in the terrible, the ugly? K: In murder, in butchery, in throwing bombs, in violence, in mutilation, torture, anger, in the brutal, violent, aggressive pursuit of an idea, in wanting to be greater than somebody - is there beauty in that? P: In all these acts there is no beauty. K: What is beauty if a man hits another?

普：在可怕的、丑陋的事物中，也能有美吗？ 克：在谋杀、屠杀、投掷炸弹、暴力、残害、折磨、愤怒中， 在观念上的野蛮、暴力、攻击性的追求中， 在想要比某个人更伟大的渴望中 —— 这一切之中，有美吗？ 普：所有这些行为都没有美。 克：如果一个人击打另一个人，那有什么美？

P: In the creative act of the artist who interprets the terrible, like the Guernica of Picasso, is there beauty? K: So we have to ask what is expression, what is creativeness. You are asking what is beauty? It lies in a sunset, in the clear light of the morning, the evening, the light on the water, relationship and so on. And does beauty lie in any form of violence, including competitive achievement? Is there beauty per se: and not in how the artist expresses himself? A child tortured can be expressed by the artist, but is it beauty?

普：在艺术家诠释恐怖的创造性行为中，比如毕加索的《格尔尼卡》，有美吗？ 克：所以我们要问什么是表达，什么是创造性。你在问什么是美？ 它躺在夕阳下，在清晨的清光里，在黄昏的光线中，在水面的色彩上，在关系中，等等。 美是否存在于任何形式的暴力中，包括竞争性的成就？ 美有本质吗，而不是艺术家如何表达他自己？ 艺术家可以表达一个被折磨的孩子，但这是美吗？

P: The expressions of other people are the only sources of beauty that are available to us. K: Which means what? P: In seeing the bridge a certain quality arises within me which we call beauty. It is only in the perception of something beautiful that the quality of beauty arises in many individuals. K: I understand that. I am asking, is beauty in self-expression? P: One has to start with what exists.

普：别人的表达是我们唯一可用的美的源泉。 克：这意味着什么？ 普：在看到这座桥时，我内心产生了某种品质，我们称之为美。 只有在对美的事物的感知中，美的品质才会在许多人的身上产生。 克：我明白，我在问，美存在于自我表达中吗？ 普：一个人必须从存在的事物开始。

K: Which is other people's expression. Not having the perceptive eye, the strange inward feeling of beauty, I say how beautiful that picture is, that poem, that symphony. Remove all that, the individual knows no beauty. Therefore he relies for his appreciation of beauty on expression, on object, on a bridge or a good chair. Does beauty demand expression, especially self-expression? P: Can it exist independent of expression?

克：也就是别人的表达。 因为没有敏锐的双眼，没有那奇特的内在美感，我说‘那幅画，那首诗歌，那支交响乐是多么的美’ 除去这一切，这个人就不知道美。 因此，他对于美的欣赏依赖于表达，对象，一座桥或一把漂亮的椅子。 美需要表达吗，尤其是自我表达？ 普：它能独立于表达而存在吗？

K: Perception of beauty is its expression; the two are not separate. Perception, seeing, acting - perceiving is expressing. In that there is no time interval at all. Seeing is doing, acting. There is no gap between seeing and doing. I want to see the mind that sees, where seeing is acting; I want to observe the nature of the mind that has this quality of seeing and doing. What is this mind? It is essentially not concerned with expression. Expression may come but it is not concerned. Because expression takes time - to build a bridge, to write a poem - but the mind which sees, the mind to which perceiving is doing, to such a mind there is no time at all, and such a mind is a sensitive mind. Such a mind is the most intelligent mind. And without that intelligence there beauty?

克：对美的感知就是它的表达，两者不是分开的。 感知，看，行动 —— 感知就是表达。 那里面根本就没有时间间隔。看就是做，就是行动。看和做之间没有间隙。 我想去看这颗头脑，那个‘看’，看就是行动； 我想去观察这颗头脑的性质，这种有能力去看和做的品质。具有这种品质的头脑是什么？ 在本质上，它与表达无关。表达可能出现，但它并不关心。 因为表达需要花费时间 —— 去搭建一座桥梁，去写一首诗 —— 但是这颗在看的头脑，感知即是行动的头脑， 对于这样的头脑，根本不存在时间。这样的头脑是一颗灵敏的头脑， 这样的头脑是最智慧的头脑。没有那种智慧，还有美吗？

P: What is the place of the heart in this? K: Do you mean the feeling of love? P: The word "love' is a loaded term. If you are still, there is a strange feeling; a movement takes place from this region of the heart. What is this? Is this necessary or is it a hindrance? K: This is the most essential part of it. There is no perception without that. Mere intellectual perception is no perception. Mere action of intellectual perception is fragmentary, whereas intelligence implies affection, the heart. Otherwise you are not sensitive. You cannot possibly perceive. Perceiving is acting. Perceiving, acting without time is beauty. P: Do the eyes, heart, do they operate at the same time in the act of perception? K: Perception implies complete attention - the nerves, the ears, the brain, the heart, everything, is at the highest quality. Otherwise there is no perceiving.

普：心灵在这其中的位置是什么？ 克：你是说爱的感觉吗？ 普：‘爱’这个词是一个沉重的术语。如果你停下来，就有一种奇怪的感觉； 从心脏的这个区域生发。这是什么？它是必要的吗，还是一种阻碍? 克：这是最核心的部分，没有它就没有感知。 仅仅在理智上的认知不是感知。 理智上的认知行为是零碎的，而智慧却意味着感情、心灵。 要是你不敏感，你就不可能感知。感知是行动。 感知，无关于时间地行动，就是美。 普：眼睛和心灵，它们在感知行为中是否同时在起作用？ 克：感知意味着完整的注意力 —— 神经、耳朵、大脑、心脏、一切，都处于最高品质。否则就没有感知。

P: The quality, the fragmentary nature of sensory action is that the whole organism does not operate at the same time. K: The whole thing - the brain, the heart, nerves, eyes, ears, are never completely in attention. If they are not, you cannot perceive. So what is beauty? Does it lie in expression, in fragmentary action? I may be an artist, an engineer, a poet. The poet, engineer, artist, scientist, are fragmentary human beings. One fragment becomes extraordinarily perceptive, sensitive and its action may express something marvellous, but it is still a fragmentary action. P: When the organism perceives violence, terror or ugliness, what is that state? K: Let us take violence in its multifarious forms, but why are you asking that question? P: It is necessary to investigate this.

普：感官行为的零碎性，是由于整个有机体没有同时运作。 克：这个整体 —— 大脑、心脏、神经、眼睛、耳朵，从来没有全然地关注。如果它们不关注，你就无法感知。 那么，什么是美？它在于表达，在于零碎的行动吗？我可能是一个艺术家，一个工程师，一个诗人。 诗人、工程师、艺术家、科学家都是零碎的人类。 一块碎片变得非常敏锐、敏感，它的行动可能表达出一些奇妙的东西，但它仍然是一个破碎的行动。 普：当有机体感知到暴力、恐怖和丑陋的时候，那是什么状况？ 克：在这众多的情形中，让我们来看暴力，但是你为什么要问这个问题？ 普：有必要对此进行调查。

K: Is violence part of beauty, is that what you are asking? P: I will not put it that way. K: You see violence. What is the response of a perceptive mind in the sense in which we are using the word "perceptive" to every form of destruction, which is part of violence? (Pause). I got it. Is violence an act which is totally perceptive, or is it a fragmentary action?

克：暴力是美的一部分吗？这就是你要问的吗？ 普：我不会那样说。 克：你看暴力。 感知每一种形式的破坏， 这颗有感知力的头脑的回应是什么？ 是暴力的一部分？（暂停）。 我抓住它了。暴力是一种完全敏锐的行动，还是一种零碎的行为？

P: It is not clear; it is not that. K: You brought in violence. I want to investigate violence. Is violence the act of a totally harmonious perception? P: No. K: So you are saying it is a fragmentary action, and fragmentary action must deny beauty. P: You have inverted the situation. K: What is the response of a perceptive mind when it sees violence? It looks at it, investigates it and sees it as a fragmentary action, and therefore it is not an act of beauty. What happens to a perceptive mind when it sees a violent act? It sees "what is".

普：不清楚；它不是那。 克：你引入了暴力。我想调查暴力。暴力是完全和谐的感知行动吗？ 普：不是。 克：所以你说它是一种碎片化的行为，碎片化的行为必然否定美。 普：你反转了这个情况。 克：当一颗有感知力的头脑看见暴力的时候，它的回应是什么？ 它看它，调查它，看见它是一种碎片化的行为，因此不是一种美的行动。 当一个有感知力的头脑看到一个暴力行动时，什么在发生？它看见‘什么是’。

P: As such, to you the nature of the mind does not change? K: Why should it change? It sees "what is". Go a step further. P: The seeing of "what is", does it change the nature of "what is"? There is perceiving. There is violence which is fragmentary. The perceiving of that, does it change the nature of violence? K: Wait a minute. You are asking what is the effect of the perceiving mind when it observes violence?

普：因此，对你来说，头脑的性质没有改变？ 克：它为什么要改变？它看见‘什么是’。更进一步。 普：看见‘什么是’，会改变‘什么是’的性质吗？ 存在着感知，存在着作为暴力的碎片。 感知到那，会改变暴力的性质吗？ 克：等一下。你是问: 当有感知力的头脑观察暴力的时候，会产生什么影响？

P: You said it sees "what is". Does it alter "what is"? The perceiving mind, observing violence and seeing "what is", the very act of seeing, does it act on violence, changing its nature? K: Are you asking whether the perceiving mind seeing the act of violence, of "what is" asks what shall I do? Is that it? P: Such a mind does not do, but there must be action from the perceiving mind changing the nature of the act of the other. K: The perceiving mind sees a violent act. Such an act is fragmentary. What action can there be by the perceiving mind? P: The perceiving mind sees violence on the part of X. Seeing is acting.

普：你说它看到‘什么是’。那么它改变‘什么是’吗？ 这颗有感知力的头脑，观察暴力，看到‘什么是’，这种看的行动，会作用于暴力并改变它的性质吗？ 克：你是问，有感知力的头脑看到这个暴力行动，这个‘什么是’时，会不会问我该怎么办？是这样吗？ 普：这样的头脑不这样做，但必定有发源于感知的行为，使得另一种行动的性质发生改变。 克：有感知力的头脑看见一个暴力行动，这个行动是碎片化的。这个有感知力的头脑有什么动作？ 普：这颗有感知力的头脑看到张三的暴力。看就是行动。

K: But what can it do? P: I would say if the perceiving mind acts, it must change the violence in X. K: Let us get this clear. The perceiving mind sees another acting violently. To the perceiving mind, the very seeing is the doing. That is one fact. Perception is doing. This perceiving mind sees X in violence. What is the action involved in that seeing - stop violence? P: All those are peripheral actions. I am saying that when a perceiving mind is confronted with an act of violence, the very act of perceiving will alter the action of violence. K: There are several things involved. The perceiving mind as it walks along sees an act of violence. The man who is acting violently may respond non-violently, because the perceiving mind is near him, close to him, and suddenly this happens.

克：但是它能做什么？ 普：我想说，如果有感知力的头脑在行动，它必定改变张三的暴力。 克：让我们把这一点说清楚白。有感知力的头脑看到另一个人在粗暴地行动。 对于有感知力的头脑来说，看就是做。那是一个事实。感知正在做。 这颗有感知力的头脑看到张三处于暴力状态。在那看的行动中，有什么行为 —— 停止暴力？ 普：这些都是外在行为。我是说，当一个有感知力的头脑面对暴力行动时， 这种感知行动会改变暴力的行为。 克：这其中涉及到几点。有感知力的头脑在行走时看到了一个暴力行动。 行动粗暴的这个人可能会做出非暴力的回应，因为有感知力的头脑就在他附近，靠近他，突然间，这发生了。

P: One comes to you with a problem - jealousy. What happens in an interview with you when a person comes to you who is confused? In the very act of perceiving, the confusion is not. K: Obviously it happens because of contact. You have taken the trouble to discuss violence and something happens because of direct sharing together of the problem. There is communication, sharing. That is simple. You see a man far away acting with violence. What is the action of the perceiving mind there? P: There must be tremendous energy from a perceiving mind. That must have some action.

普：一个人带着一个问题来找你 —— 嫉妒。 当一个困惑的人找到你，在他与你会面时会发生什么？ 在感知的行动中，困惑就不在了。 克：显然，它的发生是因为接触。 你不厌其烦地讨论暴力， 正是因为在直接地分享这个问题，使某些事情发生了。 有交流，有分享。这很简单。 你看到一个远处的人在暴力地行动。那颗有感知力的头脑的行为是什么？ 普：必定有来自于头脑的巨大能量。必定有某些行为。

K: It may act. You cannot be certain of that as you can be closeness. The other may wake up in the middle of the night, he may be aware of the strange response coming later, depending upon his sensitivity. It may be due to the perceiving mind and its impact, whereas this close communication is different. It does change. Let us come back. You were asking what beauty is. I think we can say the mind which is not fragmentary in itself, which is not broken up, has this beauty.

克：它可能行动。你可以做非常接近的推测。但你无法确定。 那个人可能会在半夜时醒来，他或许随后会意识到这种奇怪的回应，这取决于他的敏感程度。 这或许可以归因于有感知力的头脑及其影响，尽管它与这种密切的交流不同， 它确实会带来改变。 让我们回过头来。你在问什么是美。 我想我们可以说，自身没有破碎的、没有分裂的头脑，具有这种美。

P: Has it any relationship to sensory perception if you close your eyes, your ears...... K: It is independent of that. When you close your ears, eyes, there is no fragmentation and so it has this quality of beauty, of sensitivity. It is not dependent on external beauty. Put the instrument of such a mind in the middle of the noisiest city. What takes place? Physically it gets affected but not the quality of the mind, which is not fragmented. It is independent of the surroundings, therefore does not concern itself with expression.

普：这种美与感官知觉有关系吗？如果你闭上眼睛，捂起耳朵…… 克：它与那无关。 当你闭上眼睛，捂起耳朵，没有分裂，所以，它有这种美和敏感的品质。 它不依赖于外在的美。 把这样的头脑放在最嘈杂的城市中，出现什么情况？ 身体上会受到影响，但是头脑的品质不会受到影响，它不是破碎的。 它独立于周围的环境，因此它不关心表达。

P: You have still not answered one aspect of the question. There is such a thing as creative talent; the ability to put together things in a manner which gives joy. K: The housewife baking bread, but "not in order to". The moment you do that you are lost. P: Creating joy.

普：你还没有回答这个问题的某个方面。 有一种创造性天赋；这种能力能够以欢乐的方式把东西组合在一起。 克：家庭主妇烘烤面包，但不是‘为了’什么。当你这样做的那一刻，你就迷失了。 普：创造欢乐。

K: Not because of something else. The speaker does not sit on the platform and speak because he gets joy. The source of water is never empty. It is always bubbling, whether there is pollution or the worship of water; it is bubbling, it is there. Most people who are concerned with self-expression have self-interest. It is the self which makes for fragmentation. In the absence of self, there is perception. Perception is doing and that is beauty. I am sure the sculptor who carved the Mahesha Murti at Elephanta created it out of his meditation. Before you put your hand to a stone or a poem, the state must be of meditation. The inspiration must not be from the self.

克：不是为了别的什么。讲话人不会在讲台上说，因为他高兴。 水源永不枯竭，它总在冒泡，无论是污染还是对水的崇拜； 它冒出来，它就在那里。 大多数关心自我表达的人都带着自我利益。 正视自我造成了分裂。 没有自我，就有感知。感知是行动，那就是美。 我敢肯定，雕刻出像岛石窟中的湿婆像的雕刻家，是在他的冥想中创造出它的。 在你雕刻一块石头或者创作一首诗之前，必须在冥想的状态。 灵感一定不会来自于自我。

P：印度雕塑家的传统就是这样。 克：小画家、小画家、大画家都属于这一类——自我表达。 美是完全的自我抛弃，完全没有自我，就有“那个”。

P: The tradition of the Indian sculptor was that. K: And the petty, the little, the big painter are all of that category - of self-expression. Beauty is total self-abandonment and with total absence of the self there is "that". We are trying to catch "that" without the absence of the self and creation then becomes a tawdry affair.

普：印度雕塑家的传统就是那样的。 克：那些低微的、不知名的、伟大的艺术家们，都属于那类人 —— 这位自我表达者。 美是完全的自我抛弃，完全没有自我，就有‘那’。 我们试图在没有自我缺失的情况下捕捉‘那’，然后创造就变成了一件粗俗的事情。