P: There must be a way of learning how to die. To know how to die is of tremendous importance to each one of us. K: How do the traditionalists and the professionals - and by the professionals I mean the gurus, the Sankaracharyas, the Adi Sankaracharyas, the yogis - how do they answer this question? P: Tradition divides life into various stages. There is Brahmacharya, a stage of celibacy, when as a student, the boy learns from a guru. The second stage is that of Grihastha, where man gets married, has children, seeks accumulation of wealth and so on. He also supports the sannyasi and the children and thereby supports society. In the third stage, the Vanaprastha, man walks out of the pursuit of worldly things and faces the stage of preparation for the final one which is Sannyasa, in which there is a giving up of name-home identity - a symbolic donning of the saffron robe.
普：必定有一条学习如何死亡的路径。 对我们每个人来说，知道如何去死，是极其重要的。 克：传统主义者和专业人士 —— 我说的专业人士是指上师、诸神、阿谛诸神、瑜伽师 —— 他们是怎么回答这个问题的？ 普：传统把人生分为不同的阶段。 第一阶段是梵行期(Brahmacharya)，这是一个独身生活的阶段，小男孩向一位上师学习。 第二个阶段是格里哈萨期(Grihastha)，在这个阶段，男人结婚、生子、寻求财富的积累等等。他也为桑雅生、孩子们和社会提供支持。 第三阶段是瓦纳普拉斯塔(Vanaprastha)，人脱离对世俗之物的追求，进入这个预备阶段 最后一个阶段是桑纳萨(Sannyasa)，在这期间，放弃姓氏的身份 —— 穿上藏红花长袍，就象征着这个意思。
There is also a belief that at the moment of death, all man's past comes into focus. If his karma as actions within this life have been good, then that which is the last thought which remains with him at the time of death, continues. That is carried over into the next life. They also speak of the essential need for the mind to be quiet at the time of death, for the quenching of karma, for the mind to be fully awake at the moment of death.
还有一种信念，在人死亡的那一刻，他过去的一切都会浮现。 如果他此生的行为，也就是这辈子造的业，做得好， 那么，在他死的时候，他最后一个念头将保留，并延续到下一世。 他们也提到了基本的要求：在死亡的时候，这颗头脑要安静，以便于业火的熄灭， 使头脑在死亡的那一刻完全清醒。
K: Will a traditional man go through all this or is it just a lot of words? P: Generally, Sir, the orthodox Hindu has the Gita chanted at the time of death so that his mind cuts itself away from the immediacy of family, fear, wealth, etc. This does not answer my question. How is the individual to learn how to die?
克: 一个传统的男人会经历这一切吗，还是一堆文字？ 普：一般来说，先生，正统的印度教徒在死亡的时刻会吟诵吉塔， 那么做，是让他的头脑切断它自己，远离家庭、恐惧、财富等的眼下的一切。 这没有回答我的问题。人如何学习怎样去死？
K: Take a leaf in the spring - how delicate it is and yet it has extraordinary strength to stand the wind; in summer it matures and in autumn it turns yellow and then it dies. It is one of the most beautiful things to see. The whole thing is a movement of beauty, of the vulnerable. The leaf that is very very tender, becomes rich, takes shape, meets summer and then when autumn comes it turns gold. There is never any sense of ugliness, never a withering away in mid summer. It is a perpetual movement from beauty to beauty. There is fullness in the spring leaf as well as in the dying leaf. I do not know if you see that. Why cannot man live and die that way? What is the thing that is destroying him from the beginning till the end? Look at a boy of ten or twelve or thirteen - how full of laughter he is. By forty he becomes tough and hard, his whole manner and face change. He is caught in a pattern. How does one learn to live and die, not just learn to die. How does one learn to live a life in which death is a part; in which the ending, the dying, is an innate part of living?
克：以春天的一片叶子为例 —— 它是多么娇嫩，却有非凡的力量，经受风霜； 夏天成熟，秋天变黄，然后它死亡。 它是最美的东西之一。 整个过程是一场美的运动，一种脆弱的运动。 这片叶子非常非常的柔嫩，变得丰盈、成形，遇见夏天，当秋天来临，它转为金黄。 从来没有任何丑陋的感觉，从来没有在仲夏枯萎。 这是一个从美到美的永恒运动。 春天的叶子和消逝的叶子都有一种满足。我不知道你是否看到了。 为什么人不能那样生长和死亡呢？ 是什么东西在从头到尾在摧毁他？ 看看一个十岁、十二岁或十三岁的男孩 —— 他是多么地欢笑。 到了四十岁，他变得坚硬和粗暴，他的整个举止和面孔都变了。他陷入了一种模式。 一个人如何学习生命和死亡，而不仅仅是去学死亡。 一个人如何学习过一种以死亡为一部分的生命 —— 在那生命中，这种结束、这种消逝，是它天然的一部分。
P: How is dying an innate part of life? Dying is something in the future, in time. K: That is just it. We put death beyond the walls, beyond the movement of life. It is something to avoid, to evade, not to think about. The question is what is living and what is dying. The two must be together, not separate. Why have we separated the two? P: Because death is a totally different experience from life. One does not know death. K: Is it? My question is why have we separated the two; why is there this vast gulf between the two? What is the reason why human beings divide the two? P: Because in death, that which is manifest becomes non-manifest. Because both in birth and in death there is an essential mystery; an appearance and a disappearance. K: Is that why we separate the two - the appearance of the child and the disappearance of the old man? Is that the reason why man has separated life from death? The organism biologically comes to an end - birth, adolescence and death - the young appearing and the old disappearing. Is that the reason? You are saying the reason for division is because there is a beginning and an ending; there is birth, childhood, maturity and death. Is that the basic reason for the fear of death? There is obviously a beginning and an ending. I was born, I will die tomorrow - there is a beginning and an ending. Why do I not accept that?
普：消逝怎么会成为生命中天然的一部分？在时间上，死亡是将来发生的事情。 克：没错。我们把死亡放在墙外，排除在生命之外。 它是某个要去避免、躲闪、不要去想的东西。 问题在于: 什么是生活，什么是消逝？ 这两者必须在一起，而不是分开。我们为什么要把它砍成两截？ 普：因为死亡是一种与生命截然不同的体验。一个人并不知道死亡。 克：是吗？我的问题是，为什么我们要把这两者分开；为什么两者之间会有这么大的鸿沟？ 人类把两者分开的原因是什么？ 普：因为在死亡中，现有的变得不复存在； 因为出生与死亡之中，都蕴涵着的一种本质上的玄奥；一个显现，一个消逝。 克：那就我们把两者分开的原因吗 —— 小孩子的显现和老人的消逝？ 那就是人把生命从死亡之中分开的原因吗？ 很显然，存在着开始和结束； 我出生，我会死于明天 —— 出生和结束。为什么我不接受那？
P: In death is involved the cessation of the "me" - of all that I have experienced. The final cessation of the "me" takes place. K: Is that the reason for the inward division? That does not seem to be the entire reason why man has divided life from death. P: Is it because of fear? K: Is it fear that makes me divide the living and the dying? Do I know what living is and what dying is? P: Yes. K: Do I know the joy, the pleasure, that is life and do I regard dying as the ending of that? Is that the reason why we divide a movement called living and the movement called death? The movement which we call living, is it living? Or is it merely a series of sorrows, pleasures, despairs? Is that what we call living?
普：死亡涉及到‘我’的消逝 —— 我所经历的一切。这是我的终结。 克：那就是这种内在划分的原因吗？那似乎并不是人把生命从死亡之中分开的全部原因。 普：是因为恐惧？ 克：是恐惧使我把生活和消逝分开？我知道什么是生活，什么是消逝吗？ 普：是的。 克：我知道喜悦、快乐，那就是生命，我把那些的终结视为消逝吗？ 那就是我们把这一个运动划分为生命与死亡的原因吗？ 我们称之为生活的运动，它是生活吗？或者它仅仅是一系列的悲伤、快乐、绝望？ 那是我们所说的生活吗?
P: Why do you give it special meaning? K: Is there any other form of living? This is the lot of every human being. Man is afraid that this with which he had identified himself will come to an end. So he wants a continuity of this thing called life, never of ending. He wants a continuity of his sorrows, of his pleasures, miseries, confusions, conflicts. He wants the same thing to go on, that there never be an ending. And the ending of all that, he calls death. So now what is the mind doing in this? The mind is confused; it is in conflict, in despair. It is caught in pleasure, in sorrow. The mind calls that living and the mind does not want it to come to an end because it does not know what would happen if it ended. Therefore it is frightened of death. I am asking myself, is this living? Living must have quite a different meaning than this.
普：为什么你要赋予它特别的意思？ 克：还有其他的生活方式吗？这是每个人类的宿命。 人害怕他所认同的这种生活会结束。 因此他想要延续这个叫做生命的东西，让它永远不要结束。 他想要延续他的悲伤、快乐、痛苦、困惑、冲突。 他想继续这样的生活，永远不结束。 那一切的结束，他称之为死亡。那么，现在，这颗头脑在其中做了什么？ 这颗头脑糊涂了；它处于矛盾，处于绝望之中，它陷入快乐和悲伤之中。 这颗头脑把这称之为生活，还不想让它结束， 因为，如果它结束，这颗头脑不知道会发生什么。 因此，它害怕死亡。 我问我自己，这是生活吗？它必定与这有相当不同的意义。
P: Why? Why should it have a different meaning? K: Living is fulfilment, frustration, and all that is going on. My mind is used to that and has never questioned whether that is living. My mind has never said to itself why do I call this living? Is it a habit? P: I really do not understand your question. K: After all I must ask the question. P: Why should I ask? K: My life, from the time I am born till I die is one eternal struggle. P: Living is acting, seeing, being: the whole of that is there. K: I see beauty, the sky, a lovely child. I also see conflict with my child, with my neighbours; life is a movement in conflict and pleasure.
普：为什么？为什么它有不同的意义？ 克：生活是满足、受挫，以及正在发生的那一切。 我的头脑习惯了那些，从不质疑那是不是生活。 我的头脑从未问过它自己‘为什么我要称它为生活？是一种习惯吗？’ 普：我真的无法理解你的问题。 克：毕竟，我必须问这个问题。 普：为什么我要问？ 克：我的生命，从我的出生直到死亡，是一段无尽的挣扎。 普：生活是行动，看，存在：这一切都包含在里面。 克：我看到美，天空，一个可爱的孩子。我也看到与我的孩子、与邻居的冲突； 生命是一场有着冲突与快乐的运动。
P: Why should I question that? The mind questions only when there is sorrow, when there is a lot of pain. K: Why not ask when you have pleasure? When there is no pleasure there is pain. P: Sir, life is not a series of crises. Crises of pain are few. They are rare occasions. K: But I see this is happening in life. I see it happening and therefore question this division of living and dying. P: You do but others do not. We see there is a division; it is a fact to us. K: At what level, at what depth, with what significance are you making this statement? Of course it is a fact. I am born and I will die. Then there is nothing more to be said. P: It is not enough. The very fact we have asked how to learn to die........ K: I say learn also how to live. P: And I have listened. I have not asked that question to myself.
普：为什么我应该询问它？只有当存在着悲伤，存在着很多痛苦的时候，这颗头脑才会询问。 克：当你快乐的时候，为什么你不去询问？当没有了快乐，就是痛苦。 普：先生，生命不是一系列的危机。痛苦的危机是很少的。它们很罕见。 克：但是我看到它确实正在生命中发生。 我看到它正在发生，因此询问生活与消逝的这种划分。 普：你是看到了，但别人不是。我们看到这种划分，对我们而言，它就是一个事实。 克：你是在什么层面，在什么深度，带着怎样的意义，作出了这样的陈述？ 当然，它是一个事实。我出生，我会死亡，然后，再也不需要更多话语了。 普：这还不够。事实上，我们在问怎样去学习死亡…… 克：我说，也要学习怎样去生活。 普：我听到了。我自己没问过那个问题。
K: Learn how to live. Then what happens? If I learn how to live, I also learn how to die. I want to learn how to live. I want to learn about sorrow, pleasure, pain, beauty. I learn. Because I am learning about life I am learning about death. Learning is an act of purification, not the acquiring of knowledge. Learning is purgation. I cannot learn if my mind is full. The mind must purgate itself to learn. Therefore the mind when it wants to learn has to empty itself of everything that it has known, then it can learn.
克：学习怎样去生活。那么，发生了什么？如果我学习怎样去生活，我也在学习怎样去死。 我想要学习生活。我想去学习悲伤、快乐、痛苦和美。 我学。因为我在学习生命的同时，就在学习死亡。 学习是一种净化的行为，不是获取知识。学习就是净化。 如果我的头脑被填满了，我就无法学习。要去学习，这颗头脑必须净化它自己。 因此，当头脑想去学习的时候，它必须清空它自己，清空它所知道的一切，然后它才能学习。
So there is the living which we all know. There has to be first of all a learning about this daily living. Now, is the mind capable of learning, not accumulating? Without understanding what is implied in the first act of learning, can it learn? What is implied? When I do not know, then my mind, not knowing, is capable of learning. Can the mind not know so that it can learn about living - living in which there is sorrow, agony, confusion, struggle? Can it come to it in a state of not knowing and so learn? Such a mind capable of learning about life is also capable of learning about death.
那么，我们大家都知道这种生活。首先得学习这种日常生活。 现在，这颗头脑有能力去学习，而不是去累积吗？ 如果不理解学习的第一步是什么，它有能力去学习吗？学习的第一个动作是什么？ 当我不知道，那么我的头脑，处于不知道的状态，就有能力去学习。 头脑能够不知道吗？ 那样它才有能力去学习这种生活 —— 这种包含了悲伤、痛苦、困惑、矛盾的生活。 它能进入一种‘不知道’的状态并由此而学习吗？ 这样的头脑有能力学习生命，也有能力学习死亡。
What is important is not the learning about something, but the act of learning. The mind can only learn when it does not know. We approach life with knowledge of life - with knowledge of cause, effect, karma. We come to life with the sense of the "I know", with conclusions and formulas and with these we fill the mind. But I do not know about death. So I want to learn about death. But I cannot learn about death. It is only when I know learning that I will understand death. Death is the emptying of the mind, of the knowledge which I have accumulated.
重要的不是学什么东西，而是学习的这种行为。 这颗头脑只有在不知道的时候，才能学习。 我们携带着知识来靠近生命 —— 带着原因、结果、业力等等知识。 我们走进生命，带着‘我知道’的感觉，带着结论、规律和那些塞进头脑里面的东西。 但是我不知道死亡。因此我想去学习什么是死亡，但是我无法学习死亡。 只有当我知道怎样去学习的时候，我才会理解死亡。 死亡就是这颗头脑的清空，清空里面的知识，那些我积攒下来的东西。
P: There can be learning of living in the learning about death. Deep down in human consciousness there is this nameless fear of ceasing to be. K: The nameless fear of not being. The being is the knowing that I am this, that I am happy, that I had a marvellous time. In the same way I want to know death. I do not want to learn, I want to know. I want to know what it means to die. P: So that I am free of fear.
普：在学习死亡的同时，能够学习生活。 在人类的意识深处，有对死亡的莫名恐惧。 克：对不存在的莫名恐惧。 存在就是知道这些：我是这样的人，我很快乐，我有一段奇妙的时光。 以同样的方式，我想知道死亡，我不想学习，我想知道。我想知道死亡的含义。 普：那样我就可以摆脱恐惧了。
K: If I do not know how to drive a car, I am frightened. The moment I know, it is over. Therefore my knowing about death is in terms of the past. Knowledge is the past, so I say I must know what it means to die so that I can live. Do you see the game you are playing upon yourself, the game which the mind is playing upon itself?
克：如果我不知道如何驾驶汽车，我会害怕。一旦我知道，这种害怕就结束了。 因此，我所拥有的关于死亡的知识，属于过去。 知识就是过去，因此我说，我必须知道死亡的含义，那样我就能生活。 你看见了你和你自己玩的这场游戏吗？这场头脑在和它自己玩的游戏？
The act of learning is something different from the act of knowing. You see, knowing is never in the active present. Learning is always in the active present. The learning about death - I really do not know what it means. There is no theory, no speculation that will satisfy me. I am going to find out, I am going to learn in which there is no theory, no conclusion, no hope, no speculation, but only the act of learning; therefore there is no fear of death. To find out what it means to die, learn.
学习的行为与认识的行为是不同的。 你看，认识永远不处于活跃的现在，而学习始终处于活跃的现在。 对死亡的学习 —— 我真地不知道它的含义。没有可以使我满意的理论和推测。 我要去找出，我要去学习， 在学习中，没有理论、没有结论、没有希望、没有推断，只有学习的行为； 因此，没有对死亡的恐惧。 找出什么是死亡，学习。
In the same way I really want to know what living is. So I must come to living with a fresh mind, without the burden of knowledge. The moment the mind acknowledges it knows absolutely nothing, it is free to learn. But there is nothing to learn.
同样，我真地想要知道什么是生活。 因此我必须有一个清新的头脑来生活，不携带知识的包袱。 一旦这颗头脑承认它什么都不知道，它就自由地去学习了。 但是，没有去学习任何东西。
There is absolutely nothing to learn except the technological learning how to go to the moon. Freedom of learning about what - the thing that I have called living, the thing that I have called death. I do not know what it means. Therefore there is living and dying all the time. There is no death when the mind is completely free of the known - the known being the beliefs, the experiences, the conclusions, knowledge, the saying I have suffered and so on.
根本就没有什么东西可学，除了技术上的学习，比如怎么去月球。 自由地学习‘什么’ —— 这个被我唤作生活的东西，这个被我唤作消逝的东西。 我不知道它的含义是什么。因此，总是在生活与消逝。 当这颗头脑完全从已知中解放，就没有死亡。 —— 已知就是信念、经历、结论、知识、‘我受过苦难’等等。
Intellectually we have carved life out beautifully according to our conditioning. To achieve God "I must bc celibate", "I must help the poor," "I must take a vow of poverty." Death says you cannot touch me. But I want to touch death; I want to shape it into my pattern. Death says you cannot touch me, you cannot play tricks upon me. The mind is used to tricks - the carving something out of experience. Death says you cannot experience me.
在理智上，我们根据我们的条件，雕刻出美好的生命； 为了实现上帝，‘我必须独身’，‘我必须帮助穷人’，‘我必须发誓贫穷’。 死亡说，你碰不到我。但是我想摸一下死亡；我想把它塑造成为我的模式。 死亡说，你摸不到我，你无法算计我。 这颗头脑习惯了算计 —— 凭借体验，去雕刻某个东西。 死亡说你没法体验我。
Death is an original experience in the sense that it is a state I really do not know. I can invent formulas about death - the last thought is that which manifests itself - but they are other people's thoughts. I really do not know. So I am starkly frightened. Therefore can I learn of living and therefore of dying? So deny knowing - see what takes place. In that there is real beauty, real love, the real thing takes place.
死亡是一种原始的体验，一种‘我真地不知道’的状态。 我能发明关于死亡的规律 —— 比如人死前最后一个想法显现出它本身 —— 但这些都是别人的思想。 我真地不知道。因此我被吓懵了。 那么，我能够学习生活，学习消逝吗？ 所以，否定已知 —— 看看在发生什么？那里有真实的美，真实的爱，真实的东西在发生。