P: The key to your teachings appears to be in the understanding of time. The human mind, the structure of the brain cells have come to their present state with an in-built sense of time - as the yesterday, the today and the tomorrow. It is along this axis that the mind sustains itself. You appear to explode this process, to break through and therefore give the mind a new state of time. How is the time cycle to end? (Pause) What is your concept of time? The Buddha talks of the endless cycle of births and deaths, which is the yesterday, the today and the tomorrow, and the liberation from this cycle.
普；你教诲的关键，似乎在时间的理解之中。 人类的头脑、脑细胞的这种结构，它们的现状具有一种内建的时间感 —— 被称之为昨天、今天和明天。沿着这根时间轴，这颗头脑维系着它自己。 你似乎在爆破这个过程，打断，从而给这颗头脑以一种新的状态。 如何结束时间的轮回？(停顿) 你关于时间的概念是什么？ 佛陀讲生与死的不断的轮回， 也就是昨天、今天和明天，以及从轮回中解脱。
K: What is time to you? Is it the movement of the past through the present to the future; not only in space and time, but also inwardly from the yesterday, to today and tomorrow? Or is time that which is invo1ved in covering physical or psychological distance; the time to achieve, to fulfil, to arrive? Or is time an ending as death? Or is time the memory of a pleasant or unpleasant happening; time to learn a technique or time to forget? All these involve time. Time is not a concept. P: We know time as a sense of duration, as clock time.
克：对你来说，什么是时间？ 它是从过去，经过现在，抵达未来的这种移动吗；不只是外在的时空，也包含内在的昨天、今天、明天？ 或者，时间涉及到覆盖物理上的或心理上的距离；用以获取、完成和抵达？ 或者，时间是一种结束，像死亡一样？ 或者，时间是回忆那曾经的悲喜；用以学习一种技能或忘却？ 这些都是涉及到时间。时间不是一个概念。 普：我们知道时间是一种延续感，像钟表上的时间。
K: Time as duration, a process, a continuity and an ending. There is not only physical time by the watch but also the psychological inward time. Time by the watch is very clear - going to the moon requires clock time. Is there any other time?
克：时间作为延续，一种过程，一种连续和一种结束。 不仅有钟表上的物理时间，还有内在的心理时间。 钟表上显示的时间是很清楚的 —— 登月需要钟表上的时间。还有其他的时间吗？
P: We see time by the clock, the sun setting and rising. Psychological time is not different from that. If physical time has validity, my stating that I shall be tomorrow also has validity, not only physically but psychologically. All becoming is related to the tomorrow. K: All becoming is not only clock time but also the desire to become. P: The latter is possible only because there is tomorrow.
普：我们通过钟表，日出和日落看到时间。心理的时间与那并没有什么不同。 如果物理上的时间有效，那么，明天我还在的说法同样也有效，不仅是在物理上，也在心理上有效。 所有的成为，都与明天相关。 克：所有的成为，不仅属于钟表上的时间，也归属于想要成为的欲望。 普：后者之所以有可能实现，是因为明天的存在。
K: That means, you think if there was no physical time, there would be no psychological time. P: I question the distinction you draw between the two - the physical and psychological time. K: I go to Madras; that needs time as today and the tomorrow. We can also see that because there is time - as yesterday, today and tomorrow - one will be different, one will change one's character, one will become so-called perfect. P: It is easy to see that time does not bring perfection. But the nature of the movement of thought, the sprouting, is a projection in time. I question the distinction you make.
克：那意味着，你认为如果没有物理上的时间，就没有心理上的时间吗？ 普：我质疑你对物理时间与心理时间的区分。 克：我去马德拉斯；那需要像今天和明天这样的时间。 我们也可以看到，因为存在像昨天、今天和明天这样的时间， —— 一个人会变得不同，一个人会改变自己的性格，一个人会变得所谓的完美。 普：很容易看到，时间并不能带来完美。 但是思想活动的这种性质，这种萌发，是时间中的一个投影。 我质疑你所做出的这种区分。
K: I know that physical time exists. Even if I do not think about tomorrow, there would be tomorrow. Why am I sure that there will be a tomorrow apart from the chronological time? It is fairly clear. This evening I will be going for a walk and between now and the walk there is an interval of ten hours. In the same way I am something and I want to be something else. In that also there is time involved. I am asking myself if there is such time at all. If I do not think about the walk, or about my becoming something else, is there time?
克：我知道物理上的时间存在。即使我不去思考明天，明天还是存在。 为什么我确信，除了钟表上的时间之外，还会有一个明天呢？ 它很清楚。我今晚要去散步，现在距离散步的时间有十小时的间隔。 同样，我现在是这样，我想要变成另一种样子。那也涉及到时间。 我问我自己：究竟有没有那种时间？ 如果我不去考虑散步，或者不去想我要成为的另一种样子，还有那种时间吗？
P: Certain measurements have to be made. K: I need only physical measurement, no psychological measurement. I do not have to say I will become that; I will fulfil; I will achieve my ideal. All that involves time. If it does not enter my consciousness, where is time? It is only when I want to change this into that, there is time. I have no such desire. P: So long as there is desire for improvement, a change for the better, which to me is a fact, there is validity to the sense of time.
普：某一些衡量是需要的。 克：我需要的只是物理上的衡量，不是心理上的衡量。 我不需要说‘我会成为那样’；‘我会完成’；‘我会达到我的理想’。那一切都涉及到时间。 如果它不进入我的意识，那么时间在哪里？ 当我想要把‘这’改变成‘那’，就出现了时间。我没有那样的欲望。 普：只要存在改进的欲望，为了更好而改变，这对我来说是个事实。那么这种时间感就是有效的。
K: That is, two years ago, I did not do my exercises properly. In two years, I have learnt, improved. I apply the same kind of argument to an inward process, which is, I say I am this and I will improve in two years time. I know only physical time and I do not know any other time. And why do you have any other time except the physical; any other time except the chronological? Why?
克：是的，两年前，我自己没有恰当地练习。在这两年里，我在学习，并有所改善。 我把同样的说法应用到内在的过程中，也就是，我说: 我是这样，我会用两年的时间来改善。 我只知道物理上的时间，不知道任何其它的时间。 除了物理上的时间，为什么你还有其它的时间？除了顺序上的时间，为什么你还有其它的时间？
You see, what is really involved is movement - the movement of improvement; the putting together involves time, both physical and psychological. Is there any other movement except the movement of thought? And thought is time - thought which says I have been and I will become. If thought functioned only in the movement of the physical, is there any other time?
你看，这里涉及的问题其实是运动 —— 改善的运动， 这种聚合需要时间，包含了物理上和心理上的时间。 除了思想运动之外，还有其它运动吗？ 思想就是时间 —— 思想说，我是这个样子，我会成为那样的。 如果思想只在物理运动中发挥功能，那么还存在其它的时间吗？
If there is no psychological being, psychological ending, is there time? We always associate physical time with psychological time, and therefore say: "I will be". The verb "to be" is time. Now what happens when you do not want to do anything, one way or the other?
如果没有心理上的存在，心理上的结束，还有时间吗？ 我们总是把物理时间和心理时间联系在一起，因此说‘我将要实现’。这个动词‘去实现’，就是时间。 现在，当你不想做任何事情的时候，发生了什么？
P: What would have happened if man did not have this movement of becoming as time? K: He would have been destroyed. So the movement of becoming was a movement of protection. P: Then the movement of protection as time is necessary. K: Agreed, protection against fire. But is there any other form of protection? P: Once you admit protection against fire, the other protection is of the same nature. K: If the psychological is non-existent, is there need for protection?
普：如果人没有这种成为的运动，会发生什么？ 克：他会被摧毁。因此这个成为的运动是一种保护性的运动。 普：那么，这种被称之为‘时间’的保护性运动就是必需的。 克：没错，防火保护是必需的。但是，还有其它种类的保护吗？ 普：一旦你承认了防火保护，那么其他的保护就具有类似的性质。 克：如果心理是不存在的，还需要保护吗？
P: What you say is true. If the other is non-existent there is nothing to protect. But we see that there is the other. K: You accept that there is the other. You take it for granted that there is. But is there the "other"? I need only physical protection - food, clothes and shelter. Physical protection is absolutely necessary. And nothing else. Physical protection involves time. But why should there be protection about something which may not exist at all? How can you protect me psychologically? And that is what we are doing. We are doing something to protect that which does not exist and we therefore invent time. So, psychologically there is no tomorrow but there is tomorrow because I need food.
普：你所说的没错。如果另一个不存在的话，就没有可保护的东西。但是我们看到另一个是存在的。 克：你接受有另一个。你理所当然地认为它存在。但是，有‘另一个’吗？ 我需要物理上的保护 —— 食物、衣服和住处。物理上的保护是绝对必要的； 除此之外什么都没有。物理上的保护涉及到时间。 但是，为什么要对某个可能根本不存在的东西进行保护呢？ 你能在心理上保护我吗？而那就是我们正在做的事。 我们在保护那个不存在的东西，因此，我们发明了时间。 所以，在并没有心理上的明天，但明天是存在的，因为我需要食物。
P: If one sees that, in that is there the ending of time? K: This is it. (Pause.) Shall we investigate further? Consciousness is made up of content. Content makes consciousness. They are not separate. The content is made up of time. Consciousness is time and that we are trying to protect. And we are using time to shield time as a conditioned state. We are trying to protect that which has no existence.
普：如果一个人看见那一点，那是时间的终结吗？ 克：这就是。(停顿) 我们要深入下去吗？ 意识由内容组成。内容制造出意识。它们分不开。 内容由时间构成。意识是时间，是我们在试图保护的。 而我们用时间来保护时间 —— 一种受限状态的时间。 我们在试图保护那种不存在的东西。
If we look at the content of consciousness, we find memories, fears, anxieties, the "I believe", the "I do not believe`', which are all the product of time. And thought says this is the only thing I have, I must protect it, shield it against every possible danger. What is it that thought is trying to protect? Is it words? Dead memories? Is it a formula or a movement; the formula which encourages movement; which makes it move from here to there? Is there such movement except as an invention of thought? The movement of thought which is born of memory, though it thinks of freedom is still of the past. Therefore, it cannot bring about radical change. Therefore, it is deceiving itself all the time. When you see that, is there time at all which needs self-protection?
如果我们看意识的这个内容， 我们找到记忆、恐惧、焦虑、我所相信的、我所不相信的，这一切都是时间的产物。 而思想说：‘这是我唯一所拥有的，我必须保护它，保卫它，远离每种可能存在的危险。’ 思想要保护的是什么？是言词？是死去的记忆？ 是一种准则，或者一种运动；一种鼓舞运动的准则；一种把它从‘这’搬到‘那’的运动模式？ 除了思想的发明，有这样的运动吗？ 思想运动诞生于记忆，尽管它思考自由，它依然属于过去。 因此，它无法带来根本的改变。因此，它总是在欺骗它自己。 当你看到那一点，究竟有没有‘需要自我保护’的时间？
If one really understood this, then one's whole activity would be entirely different. Then I would protect only the physical and not the psychological. P: Would that not mean a state of emptiness inside; a meaningless emptiness inside? K: If I only protect the physical and nothing else, obviously it is like a glass which is being protected. Therefore, one is frightened of being empty, of meaningless emptiness. But if one sees the whole thing, there is an emptiness which is tremendously significant.
如果一个人真的理解这，那么，一个人的整个行为会全然地不同。 那么，我会只保护物体，而不是心理。 普：那岂不意味着一种内在的虚无，一种内在的无意义的空虚吗？ 克：如果我只保护物理上的，不去管其余的，显然，它就如同在保护一个玻璃杯。 因此，一个人害怕虚无，一种没有意义的空无。 但是，如果一个人看到这整个东西，就有一种虚无，这种虚无有巨大的意义。
S: Does time have a point at all, at which there is an impact? How does one know the texture of time? K: We live between regret and hope. If there is no movement, psychological movement backwards or forwards, then what is time? Is it height, which again means measurement? If there is no measurement, no movement, no backward or forward movement, no height and depth, actually no movement at all, is there time? And also, why do we give such extraordinary importance to time?
苏: 究竟有没有一个时间点，在那一刻能产生一种影响？一个人如何认识时间的纹理？ 克：我们活在后悔与希望之间。如果不移动，没有心理上的反复，那么，什么是时间？ 它有高度吗，有可衡量的高度吗？ 如果没有衡量，没有移动，没有往复运动，没有高度和深度，真正地完整的不动，还有时间吗？ 同样，为什么我们赋予时间如此非凡的重要性？
P: Because time is age, decay, deterioration. K: Follow it up. Time is decay. I see this body, young and healthy, getting older, dying, the whole mechanism unwinding. That is all I know. Nothing else. P: The mind also deteriorates. K: Why not? It is part of the decaying process. I brutalize the mind to achieve, to succeed, which are all factors of unnatural deterioration. Then what have I left? The body grows old. I have regrets - I cannot walk up the hill any more. The whole psychological struggle comes to an end and I am frightened. So I say "I must have a next life."
普：因为时间是年龄，衰败，恶化。 克：接着追问。时间是衰败。 我看到这个年轻的、健康的身体在变老，死亡，整个机能在松弛。 那就是我所知道的一切。没有其它的。 普：这颗头脑也再恶化。 克：为什么不呢？它是这个衰败过程的一部分。 我把这颗头脑变得残酷，以便于获取，成功，这一切都是非自然衰败的因素。 那么，我剩下什么？身体变老。我后悔了 —— 我再也不能爬山了。 整个心理上的挣扎来到了终点，我感到恐惧。所以我说：“我必定有另一条命。”
P: Does age diminish the capacity to see, to perceive? K: No, if you have not spoilt it by scars, memories, quarrels. P: If not? K: Then you are going to pay for it.
普：年龄的增长会减弱看和感知的能力吗？ 克：不会，如果你没有被伤疤、记忆、争吵所损坏。 普：如果损坏了？ 克：那么你就得为它付出代价。
P: Then there is no redemption. K: At any point the first step is the last step. P: So time can be wiped out at any point. K: Anyone who says let me be aware of this whole movement and perceives totally for one second, the mind becomes young again for that second. Then the mind carries that over and again deteriorates. P: The carrying over is karma, karma is also time.
普：那就没办法补救了。 克：在任何一点上，这第一步即是这最后一步。 普：因此时间可以在任何一点上被清除。 克：任何一个人说 "让我意识这整个运动，在这一秒种彻底地感知"，在那一秒种，这颗头脑就变得年轻。 当这个头脑把那个经历保留起来，它就再一次衰败。 普：这种包袱就是‘业’，‘业’也是时间。
K: There is past action, present action and future action. Cause is never a static thing. There are so many things happening. The effect becomes the cause. So there is a constant movement undergoing change all the time. P: Karma in itself has validity. K: I plant the seed, it will grow up. I plant the seed in the woman and the child grows. P: So psychological time has existed as karma. It has reality. K: No. Is it the real? When you look, it ceases. Let us look at this question of cause and effect. I plant a seed in the earth and it grows. If I plant an acorn, it cannot grow to be anything but the oak. P: I do a certain action. The seed is already planted. That will have its effect. K: There I can change the effect. I plant the seed. What the seed is, the bush will be, or the tree will be. I cannot change that.
克：有过去的行为，现在的行为和将来的行为。原因从不是一个静态的东西。 有如此众多的事物在发生。结果变成原因。 因此，一直在经历一种持续的变动。 普：‘业’本身具有有效性。 克：我种下种子，它会成长。我在女人的体内播下种子，孩子就会成长。 普：因此，心理上的时间作为‘业’而存在。它有真实性。 克：不。它是真实的吗？当你看的时候，它消亡。让我们来看因果问题。 我在土壤中播下一颗种子，它成长。如果我种的是橡子，那么它只能长出橡树。 普：我做了某种动作。种子就被播下。将会收获它的结果。 克：我能改变这个结果。我播下这颗种子。有什么样的种子，就会长出什么样的树。我无法改变它。
S: Can the effect be changed in psychological action? K: Yes, of course. You have hit me for whatever reason - either hit physically or used words. Now, what is the response from me? If I hit you back, the movement continues. But if I do not react when you hit me, then what happens? Because there is observing, watching, I am out of it. P: I understand at that level. I set a movement in motion. I observe. The process has ended. That act affects another. It is going to affect others.
苏: 在心理行为中，结果能够被改变吗？ 克：当然可以。不管出于什么原因，你打了我 —— 不管是身体上的还是言语上的。 现在，我的回应是什么？如果我还击你，这个运动就在持续。 但是，如果在你打我的时候，我没有反应，那么，发生了什么？因为这种观察，这种看，我从中出来了。 普：我理解那个层面。我开启一个运动过程。我观察，这个过程被结束。 那个行为影响另一个人。它会影响其他人。
K: It will affect your family, the world around you, and others. P: The causation, action and reaction arising out of that action are in a sense independent of my action. K: The wave goes on. P: If that is so, that is karma. A certain energy has been released. It will work itself out unless it meets other minds which quench it. K: The wave can only end when both of us see it at the same level at the same time with the same intensity. This means love. Otherwise you cannot end it.
克：它会影响你的家人，你周围的世界，以及他人。 普：那个行为所引发的原因、动作和反应，在某种感觉上，独立于我的行为。 克：这个波动会传递。 普：如果是那样，那就是‘业’。一种能量被释放出来。它自己会产生结果，直到遇见平息它的另一个头脑。 克：这个波动的结束，只有当我们两个人在同样的层面，同样的时间，带着同样的强度看见它。 这意味着爱。否则你不能结束它。