P: We have talked several times, and so far the discussions have been related to the mind and its problems. What we have not discussed is the movement of the heart. K: I am glad you have raised that. P: Is the movement of the heart a different movement from the movement of the mind? Are they one movement or two movements? And if they are two movements, what are the elements which make these two movements different? I use the words mind and heart, because these are the two focal points around which certain sensory responses appear to focus. Are the two movements in fact one movement?
普：到目前为止，我们所讨论的话题都是关于头脑和与它相关的问题。 我们还没有讨论过心灵的运动。 克：我很高兴你提出这个问题。 普：心灵的运动与头脑的运动是不同的吗？它们是同一个运动还是两个运动？ 如果它们是两个运动，那么，是什么因素使这两个运动不同？ 我之所以使用‘头脑’和‘心灵’这两个词， 因为，它们似乎是某些感官反应汇聚的两个焦点。 这两个运动实际上是一个运动吗？
K: Let us begin. What do you mean by movement? P: Any kind of emotional response which we call love, affection, goodwill, compassion, seems to ripple, to move from a focal point which we identify as the region of the heart. These ripples affect the heart, make it physically beat faster. K: Which is the physical, the physiological movement of the brain cells? D: Or is it the nerves which have an impact on the heart?
克：让我们开始吧。运动是什么意思？ 普：任何一个我们称之为爱、亲情、善意、同情的情感反应， 如同涟漪，从一个焦点处散开，我们把这个焦点称之为心脏。 这些涟漪会影响心脏，使其身体跳动更快。 克：脑细胞的生理运动是什么？ 德：是神经在影响心脏吗？
K: It is a response of the nerves, the heart, the brain, the whole organism, the psychosomatic organism. Now, is the movement of the mind separate from the movement which is generally called the heart? We are not speaking of the physical heart, but of the emotions, the sentiments, the angers, the jealousy, the feeling of guilt - all the emotions that make the heart throb and beat faster. Are the movements of the mind and heart separate? Let us discuss it. P: What we have been saying all along is that if one can strip oneself till nothing remains but the movement of survival, the only factor which distinguishes man is this strange movement of the heart. K: I think this division is artificial. First of all, we should not start that way.
克：它是神经、心脏、大脑、整个有机体、心身有机体的一种回应。 现在，头脑的运动与通常称为心灵的运动，这两者是分开的吗？ 我们不是在谈论肉体的心脏，而是在谈论感情、情绪、愤怒、嫉妒、内疚感。 —— 所有使心脏悸动和跳动更快的情感。 头脑和心灵的运动是分开的吗？让我们讨论一下。 普：我们一直在说， 如果一个人可以剥离自己，直到只剩下生存的运动， 区分人的唯一因素是心灵的这种奇怪的运动。 克：我认为这种划分是人为的。首先，我们不应该以这种方式开始。
P: While we have been discussing with you, there has been a silencing of the brain cells, there has been tremendous clarity, yet there has been no response from the heart; there have been no ripples. K: So you are separating the two. There is the movement of the mind and the movement of the heart: let us question whether they are separate? And if they are not separate, then when the mind is empty of consciousness in the sense in which we have used that word, what is the quality of the mind that is compassion - that is love, empathy? Let us begin by asking whether the movement of the heart is separate. Is any movement separate? P: What identity has anger with the movement of affection?
普：当我们和你讨论的时候， 脑细胞安静了，极为清澈， 然而，却不是发自心灵的；那么没有涟漪。 克：所以你把两者分开了。有头脑的运动和心灵的运动： 让我们质疑：它们是不是分开的？如果它们不分开， 那么，当头脑中清空了意识，就像我们曾经使用这个词一样， 那个头脑的品质，慈是什么意思 —— 那是爱、共鸣吗？ 让我们先问一下心灵的运动是否是分开的。任何运动都是分开的吗？ 普：愤怒与感情有什么相同之处？
K: I am asking, is any movement separate? P: Separate from what? K: Is all movement unitary, like all energy is unitary, though we may divide it up, fragment it? All movement is one; a unitary movement. One has broken movement up as the movement of the heart, the movement of different categories; but we are asking, "Is the movement of the heart separate from the movement of the mind?" Is there such a movement of the heart separate from the mind, mind being the brain? I do not know if I can verbalize this - the mind, the heart, the brain, are they one unit? And from that unit, movement flows; a movement which is unitary. But we divide emotions, sentiments, devotion, tenderness, compassion, enthusiasm from their opposites.
克：我在问，任何运动都是分开的吗？ 普：与什么分开？ 克：所有的运动都是单一的，就像所有的能量都是单一的，尽管我们可以把它割开、分裂？ 所有的运动都是一体的；一个单一的运动。 一个人是把运动分解为心灵的运动，不同类别的运动； 但是我们要问的是，“心灵的运动与头脑的运动是分开的吗？” 有没有这样一种与头脑分离的心灵运动？这里的头脑是大脑。 我不知道我是否可以用语言表达 —— 头脑、心脏、大脑，它们是一个统一的单元吗？ 从那个单元，运动流转；一个单一的运动。 但是，我们划分出情感、情绪、奉献、温柔、同情、热情与它们的对立面。
P: As also evil, cruelty, vanity. There is a pure intellectual movement which is neither one nor the other; the pure technological movement. K: Is the technological movement different from the movement of the mind? P: I think thought has its own technology. It has its own momentum, it has its own reason for existence, its own direction, its own speed at which it operates, its own motives and its own energy. F: You cannot measure thought. Do not call it technology. D: Thought-waves have been measured. Technology means measurable.
普：还有邪恶、残忍、虚荣。 有一种纯粹的智力运动，它既不是其中之一，也不是另一个；纯技术运动。 克：技术运动与思想运动不同吗？ 普：我认为思想有自己的技术。它有自己的动力，它有自己的存在的理由， 它自己的方向，它自己的运作速度，它自己的动机和它自己的能量。 莫：你无法衡量思想。不要称之为技术。 德：思想波已经被测量了。技术意味着可衡量。
K: We said just now that compassion, love, tenderness, care, consideration and politeness are one movement. The opposite movement is contrary to that - it is violence and all that. So there is the movement of the mind, the movement of affection, love and compassion; and the movement of violence. So there are now three movements. Then there is another movement which says this must be or this must not be; has the assertion that this must be or this must not be, anything whatsoever to do with the mental movement? D: Then there is the movement of the coordinator apart from the three.
克：我们刚才说过，同情、爱、温柔、关怀、体贴和礼貌是一个动作。 相反的运动与此相反 —— 它是暴力等等。 因此，有头脑的运动，感情、爱和慈的运动；以及暴力运动。 所以现在有三个运动。然后，还有另一个运动，它说‘这必定是’或者‘这一定不是’； 断言这必定是或一定不是，与心理运动有任何关系吗？ 德：然后，是除了三个运动之外的协调者的运动。
K: Now we have the fourth movement - the coordinator. The movement of affection as the movement of the heart, then the movement of violence, callousness, depression, vulgarity and all that; then the mental, intellectual movement and the movement of the coordinator. So there are now four movements and every one of these movements has its own subdivisions. See how complex it becomes, and each subdivision is in contradiction with its opposite. So it becomes multiple. This psychosomatic organism has got dozens of con- tradictions, not just mental movements, intellectual movements, emotional movements, etc. There are simultaneous and contradictory movements, multitudinous movements and there is the coordinator trying to arrange things so that he can operate.
克：现在我们有第四个运动 —— 协调者的运动。 感情的运动作为心灵的运动，然后是暴力、冷酷、沮丧、粗俗等等的运动； 然后是精神、智力运动和协调者的运动。 所以现在有四个运动，每个运动都有自己的细分。 看看它变得多么复杂，每个细分都与其相反的矛盾。 所以它变成了多重。 这个心身有机体有几十种结构，不仅仅是心理运动、智力运动、情感运动等。 有同时和矛盾的运动，众多的运动 还有协调者试图去安排事物，以便于他能操作。
F: Is there not a selective mechanism, which picks up and calls it thought, mind, heart and so on? Is that not the coordinator? K: Coordinator, chooser, integrater, selecter, call it what you will, they are all in contradiction with each other. F: Why do you say they are in contradiction, because each one is an independent movement? D: But as one lives they seem to be in contradiction. F: But each one is moving in its own. P: As "F" says, at any given point if one is, the other is not. F: Then there cannot be contradiction.
莫：难道没有一种选择性机制，它拾取并称之为思想、头脑、心灵等等吗？那不是协调者吗？ 克：协调者、选择器、集成者、选择器，随便你怎么称呼，它们都是相互矛盾的。 莫：你为什么说它们是矛盾的，因为每一个都是一个独立的运动？ 德：但是作为一个人的生活，它们似乎是矛盾的。 莫：但是每个人都在他自身内移动。 普：正如“莫”所说，在任何给定的点上，如果一种（运动）在，另一种就不在。 莫：那就不会有矛盾了。
K: When one is, the other is not. But the coordinator weighs these two - I want this and I do not want that. F: That is the whole movement of life. P: We started by saying that so far we have gone into the movement of the mind. Is there such a thing as the movement of the heart? B: Is it a nourishing movement? Is it a movement of sustenance - this which we call the movement of the heart? Is this not necessary in order to see that the movement of the brain does not remain sterile? D: We are not in the field of contradiction at all. K: Contradiction is not when one is, and the other is not, but when the coordinator says I would rather not have this but have that; then begins the contradiction, the opposition as choice.
克：当一个在，另一个不在的时候。但是协调者权衡了这两个 —— 我想要这个，我不想要那个。 莫：那就是生命的整个运动。 普：我们一开始就说，到目前为止，我们已经进入了头脑的运动。有心灵运动这样的东西吗？ 芭：它是一种滋养的运动吗？它是一种营运的运动 —— 我们称之为心灵的运动吗？ 为了看见大脑的运动不会保持枯燥，它不是必需的吗？ 德：我们根本不在矛盾的领域。 克：矛盾不是‘一个在，另一个不在’，而是当协调者说我宁愿没有这个，而是拥有那个； 然后，矛盾开始，这种对抗就是选择。
A: If I am full of hate, etc., I cannot take two steps beyond. The question is, is the movement of the heart distinct from that of the mind? Or does it have its own quality? K: That is what "P" is saying. There is the movement of the mind, the intellectual, technological movement; there is the movement of the heart and there is the movement of violence. Then there are several multitudinous movements in us and the coordinator selects one or two to sustain himself. From there what is the next question?
阿：如果我充满仇恨，我无法再多走两步。 问题是: 心灵运动与头脑运动是不同的吗？或者它有它自己的品质？ 克：那就是普普尔所说的。有头脑的运动，智力的，技术的运动； 有心灵运动，还有暴力运动。 那么，在我们身上有多个运动，协调者选择一两个来维持他自己。 从那里开始，下一个问题是什么?
P: Are these movements parallel to each other? Ultimately they are either the one movement or the other. K: I am not sure. P: Is the movement of the brain basically that which excites emotions? A: Though one may not have personal hate or anger, when I read about Bengal, certain emotions come and they are social responses. I do not do a thing about it, whereas to have love, affection is a definite quality of enrichment; a sustenance; which the mind cannot give you.
普：这些运动是平行的吗？最终，它们要么是一个运动，要么是另一个运动。 克：我不确定。 普：大脑的运动基本上是激发情感的运动吗？ 阿：虽然一个人可能没有个人的仇恨或愤怒， 当我读到孟加拉时，某些情感来了，它们是社会性的回应。我对此无能为力， 然而，要有爱，感情是一种确切的、丰饶的品质；它是一种滋养物；是头脑无法提供的。
D: We have already agreed that the perception of the brain is thought. K: Let us get the meaning of the words clear. The response to various forms of stimuli we call emotion. Is perception an emotion? Now what is the next question? You ask, are there two movements with their subdivisions; are they parallel? P: Parallel means separate; they never meet. K: Or are they really one which we do not know?
德：我们已经一致同意大脑的感知是思想。 克：让我们把这些词的含义弄清楚。 对各种形式的刺激的回应，我们称之为情感。 感知是一种情感吗？ 现在，下一个问题是什么？你问，它们的细分有两种运动吗？它们是平行的吗？ 普：平行表示分离；它们从不相遇。 克：或者，它们真的是同一个运动，而我们却不知道？
P: Take desire. Which category would you put it in - emotion or thought? B: Desire is from the heart. P: Take the arising of desire. After a while it becomes thought. Where will you put it? A: It arises only as a thought. F: The arising of desire as an immediate emotional response of the heart, is not separate from thought. With the word "anger", the heart beats faster. All that is one movement.
普：以欲望为例。你会把它归入哪一类 —— 情感还是思想？ 芭：欲望是发自内心的。 普：以欲望的生起为例。过了一会儿，它变成了思想。你会把它放在哪里？ 阿：它只是作为一种思想而生起的。 莫：欲望的产生是心灵的直接情感反应，与思想是分不开的。 ‘愤怒’这个词的刺激，使心跳加快。所有这一切，都是一个运动。
K: Desire, hate, love, we say, are emotive and mental movements. Therefore there are these two movements. You ask, are they parallel and therefore separate or is it all one movement? I am not saying it is or it is not so. P: I think that is not a valid question. The valid question is if they are two separate movements, is it impossible for them ever to come together? Or is it the very cause of the misfortune that we have kept them separate? F: That which perceives the pattern is thought. That which perceives without the pattern is emotion. P: The moment you make such a statement either this is so to us and therefore the duality has ceased, or otherwise it is a theory.
克：欲望、恨、爱，我们说，是情感和心理的运动。因此，有这两个运动。 你问，它们是平行的，因此是分开的，还是都是一个运动？我不是说‘是’或‘不是’。 普：我认为这不是一个有效的问题。 有效的问题是，如果它们是两个独立的运动，它们是否永远不可能走到一起？ 或者，正是由于我们把它们分开，造成了它们的不幸？ 莫：带着模式去感知，就是思想。不通过模式去感知，就是情感。 普：当你做出这样的声明的那一刻，要么对我们来说就是这样，因此，二元性已经停止，要么它是一个理论。
K: It is a theory. Conclusions, formulas mean nothing. I say I do not know. I know only these two movements the one the thinking, the intellectual, the rational movement; the second the feeling of kindliness, gentleness, that is all. Are they two separate movements? Or because we have treated them as two separate movements, our whole misfortune, our confusion arises. You see, "P", you can see we have till now divided the body and the soul. The whole religious tendency in the west as well as in the east has been this division of the soul and the body and we have maintained that and the scriptures have maintained that.
克：它是一个理论。结论，公式，是毫无意义的。我说我不知道。 我只知道这两种运动，一种思想运动，这种智力上的、理性的运动； 第二种是善良、温柔的感觉，仅此而已。 它们是两个独立的运动吗？ 或者，因为我们把它们当作两个独立的运动来对待，我们的整个不幸，我们的困惑就出现了。 你看，普普尔，你可以看到，到现在为止，我们已经把身体和灵魂分开了。 西方和东方的整个宗教倾向都是灵魂和肉体的分裂。 我们一直坚持这一点，圣经上，也坚持这一点。
It is really a psychosomatic state, not one or the other, but it is a psychosomatic movement which invents the soul, etc. And so the question is, are they two movements or have we accustomed ourselves to the thought that the two are separate - the body and the soul - till somebody says it is a psychosomatic state and I say "yes", I understand.
它实际上是一种心身状态，不是非此即彼，而是一种身心的运动，被发明出灵魂等等概念。 所以问题是，它们是两个运动吗？ 还是我们已经习惯性的认为两者是分开的 —— 身体和灵魂 —— 直到有人说这是一种身心状态，然后我说“是的”，我理解。
P: But how can you neglect the fact that an emotional intensity brings a new quality of being, a complete experience of what the other person feels; a sense of unspoken understanding? K: Do not bring that in yet. We are asking, are these two movements separate? Or because we are so habit-ridden we have accepted that they are two separate movements? If they are not, what is the one unitary movement that includes thought as the movement of the brain and the movement of the heart? How do you investigate this question?
普：但是，你怎么能忽视这样一个事实呢？ 一种情感的强度，带来了新的存在品质，对他人的一种完全感觉的体验；一种心照不宣的理解？ 克：先别带那个东西进来。我们在问，这两个运动是分开的吗？ 还是因为我们习惯性太深，我们已经接受了它们是两个独立的运动？ 如果不是， 什么是单一的运动，包含了作为大脑运动的思想和心灵的运动？ 你如何调查这个问题？
I can only investigate it from fact to fact. I can have no theories about it. I see the fact of perception. I see the fact of the movement of thought. And I ask when there is no movement of thought, is there a movement which is nonverbal? Have I explained myself?
我只能从一个事实到另一个事实进行调查。我对此没有任何理论。 我看到了感知的事实。我看到了思想运动的事实。 我问，当没有思想的运动时，有没有一种运动是非语言的？我解释清楚了吗？
If there is complete cessation of thinking which is movement, is there a movement which is an emotive movement as love, devotion, tenderness, care? Is there a movement separate from thought; thought being verbal meaning, explanation, description, etc? Or when the movement of thought comes to an end without any compulsion, is there not a totally different movement which is not that or this?
如果思想完全停止，就是这种运动， 有没有一种运动，一种爱、奉献、温柔、关怀的情感运动？ 有没有与思想分离的运动；思想就是言语上的意义、解释、描述等等？ 或者，当思想运动在没有任何强迫的情况下结束时， 难道没有一个完全不同的、非彼非此的运动吗？
P: That is so, Sir, and I am saying this very very hesitantly. There is a state when it is as if an elixir is released, when one is overflowing; a state in which the heart is the only thing that is there - I am using metaphors - and there can be action in that state, doing in it, thinking in it, and everything in it, and there is a state when thought has ceased and the mind is very clear and alert, but the elixir is not present. K: Let us stick to one thing. Just what is the factor of division?
普：是那样的，先生，我说这句话时，非常非常地犹豫。 有一种状态，好像释放了一剂丹药，当药效溢出时； 一种心灵唯一存在的状态 —— 我在用隐喻 —— 在那种状态下可以有行为，在其中运作，在其中思考，以及其中的一切， 有一种状态是当思想消逝，这颗头脑非常清晰和警觉，但丹药却不存在。 克：让我们坚持一样东西。分裂的因子到底是什么？
P: What divides is an actual tactile sense. Here it is not something which is mental. There is a certain ripple; a ripple is very real. K: I am not talking about that. What is the factor in us that divides one as the emotive movement and the other as the intellectual-thought movement? Why is there the soul and the body? D: Would you admit that the very faculty of intellect sees that there is a movement which emerges from thought and another that emerges from the heart. It is observable.
普：在进行划分的，是实际的触觉。在这里，它不是精神上的东西。 有一定的涟漪；涟漪是非常真实的。 克：我不是在谈论那个。 我们里面的哪一个因素，将一个划分为情感运动，另一个划分为智力-思想运动？ 为什么存在着灵魂和身体？ 德：你会承认这个吗， 智力本身就看到，有一种运动是从思想中产生的，另一种运动是从内心产生的？ 它是可观察的。
K: I say, why is there a division? D: The hand is different from the leg. K: They have different functions. D: There is the function of the brain and there is the function of the heart. A: As far as my experience goes, when the verbal movement ceases, there is an awareness of the entire body in which emotional content is and it is pure feeling. It is no more thinking, but pure feeling.
克：我说，为什么会有分界？ 德：手和脚不同。 克：它们有不同的功能。 德：有大脑的功能，也有心灵的功能。 阿：就我的体验而言，当言语运动停止时， 有一种对整个身体的觉察，其中有情感内容，它是一种纯粹的感觉。 它不再是思想的运动，而是纯粹的感觉。
P: In the tradition there is a word called Rasa. It is very close to what Krishnaji says. But rasa is a word which needs to be investigated. Rasa is essence, it is that which fills. The tradition differentiates different types of rasa but rasa is essence; that which fills, that which permeates. D: It is emotion.
普：在传统中有一个词叫Rasa。 这与克里希那吉所说的非常接近。但rasa是一个需要调查的词。 拉萨是精髓，能充实。 传统区分不同类型的拉萨，但拉萨是精髓；充满，渗透。 德：它是情感。
P: It is much more; rasa is essence. K: Keep to that word essence, perfume. Essence means what it is. Now what happens? In observing the whole movement of thought, in observing the content of consciousness, the essence comes out of it. And in observing the movement of the heart, in that perception, there is the essence. Essence is the same whether it is this or that. A: That is what the Buddhists also say.
普：它远不止于此；拉萨是精髓。 克：保持“精髓”这个词，香水。精髓意味着它是什么。现在，在发生什么？ 在观察整个思想运动中，在观察意识的内容时，精髓从中产生。 在观察心灵的运动中，在这种感知中，有精髓。无论是这还是那，精髓都是一样的。 阿：佛教徒也是这么说的。
K: When you use the word "essence", it is the essence of all the flowers that makes the perfume and the quality. In perceiving the whole movement of thought as consciousness - consciousness with its content which is consciousness - and in observing that, in that very observation is the external refinement which is the essence. Right? In the same way there is the perception of the whole movement of the body, love, joy. When you perceive all that, there is the essence and in that there are no two essences. Essence has to come into being. Now how do you produce it? Distil it? When the flowers are distilled, the essence of the flowers is the perfume.
克：当你使用“精髓”这个词时，它是所有花朵的精髓，造就了香水和品质。 感知整个思想运动，也就是意识 —— 意识及其内容就是意识 —— 在那观察中，正是这种观察，这种外在的精炼，就是精髓。对吗？ 同样，还有对身体、爱、喜悦的整个运动的感知。 當你感知到所有這些時，就有精髓，其中没有两种精髓。 精髓必须产生。现在你如何生产它？ 提炼出来？当花被蒸馏时，花的精髓是香水。
D: When the pollution goes, it is essence. F: There is the essence of friendship, of affection. K: No, no, I would not use essence of friendship, essence of jealousy. No, no. F: What do you mean by essence? K: Just look. I have watched what we have been doing during these discussions. We have observed the movement of thought as consciousness; the whole of it and the content of the movement is consciousness. There is perception of that. The perception is the distillation of that and that we call essence which is pure intelligence. It is not my intelligence or your intelligence but it is intelligence, it is essence. And when we observe the movement of love, hate, pleasure, fear, which are all emotive, there is perception and, as you perceive, the essence comes out of that. There are no two essences. D: Here comes my question. What is the relationship between essence as you perceive it and uniqueness? I think they are interchangeable. K: I think I would rather use the word essence.
德：当污染消失了，就是精髓。 莫：有友谊的精髓，感情的精髓。 克：不，不，我不会用友谊的精髓，嫉妒的精髓。不，不。 莫：你说的精髓是什么意思？ 克：去看。在这些讨论中，我看到了我们一直在做的事情。 我们观察到作为意识的思想运动； 它的全部和运动的内容是意识。那是对它的感知。 感知就是对它的提炼，我们称之为精髓，它是纯粹的智慧。 它不是我的智慧或你的智慧，而是智慧，它是精髓。 我们在观察爱、恨、快乐、恐惧的运动，这些都是情感上的， 那里有感知，在你的感知中，精髓从中而出。没有两种精髓。 德：我的问题来了。 在你的感知中，出现的精髓和唯一性，两者之间有什么关系？ 我认为它们是可以互换的。 克：我想我宁愿用“精髓”这个词。
P: The great masters of alchemy were called rasa-siddhas. D: They who are established in rasa, that is, those who have attained, who have their being in that. K: During these days and before, one has watched the movement of thought. One has watched it, and watched it without any choice and in that is the essence; out of that choiceless observation comes the essence of the one and the essence of the other. Therefore what is this essence? Is it a refinement of emotions, or is it totally unrelated? And yet it is related because it has been observed. Right? P: So energy which is attention.... K: Energy is essence.
普：伟大的炼金大师被称为rasa-siddhas（精髓的大师）。 德：他们在精髓中建立，即那些已经达到的人，他们在其中存在。 克：在这些日子里和以前，一个人一直在观察思想的运动。 一个人观察了它，而且毫无选择地观察它，其中就有精髓； 从这种无选择的观察中，产生了一个的精髓和另一个的精髓。 那么，精髓是什么？ 是情感的提炼，还是与它完全无关？然而，它是相关的，因为它已经被观察到了。对吗？ 普：所以能量是注意…… 克：能量是精髓。
P: Though operating on matter, essence is unrelated to both. K: Let us begin again slowly with essence. Is it unrelated to consciousness? I am taking it that one has observed consciousness. There has been a perception of movement as consciousness, as thought and the content of that consciousness which is time and the very observation of that, the flame of observation distils. Right? In the same way the flame of perception brings the essence of emotive movement. Now having this essence, what relationship has it to that and to this? I do not know if you see this. That was your question. Right? None whatsoever. Essence has nothing to do with the flower. Right. Though it is part of the flower, the essence is not of it.
普：虽然它对物质起作用，但精髓与这两者无关。 克：让我们慢慢地从精髓重新开始。它与意识无关吗？ 我拿它来说，一个人已经观察到了意识。 对意识，对其中的思想及其内容，也就是对时间的感知。 那个观察的动作，观察的火焰在提炼。对吗？ 同样，感知的火焰带来了情感运动的精髓。 现在有了这个精髓，它与那个，它与这个有什么关系？ 我不知道你是否看到这点。那是你的问题。对吗？ 都无关。精髓与花无关。对。 虽然它是花的一部分，但精髓不属于它。
F: Even grammatically it is not all right: although it is part of the flower it is not of the flower. K: Look, Sir, the other day I saw they were taking the bark of a tree to produce some kind of alcohol; that essence is not the bark. F: But it is in the bark. D: It is realized because of the heat. K: Heat of perception produces essence. So what is the question? Is essence related to consciousness? Obviously not. So the whole point in this is the flame of perception and the flame of perception is the essence.
D: It creates the essence and it is the essence. K: It is the essence. P: Is perception creation, the moment of creation? D: Do we create what we perceive? P: Is perception creation? K: I do not know what you mean by creation. P: Bringing into being something which is not there.
德：它创造精髓，它就是精髓。 克：它是精髓。 普：感知创造，创造的时刻吗？ 德：我们创造我们感知的东西吗？ 普：感知是创造吗？ 克：我不知道你说的创造是什么意思。 普：带来不存在的东西。
K: Is perception creation? What do you mean by creation? I know what perception means. Let us stick to that word. I do not know what the meaning of creation is. Producing a baby? Baking bread? D: No, I would not say that. Moving from here to there is also producing. K: Do not reduce everything to creation. Going to office is not creation. You are asking what is creation? To create, to produce, to create something which has not existed before. When we use the word "creation', to create something different, to create a statue, to bring into being, what does that mean? Is it essence? To bring into being what? It can bring into being only two things: thought or emotion. D: Bringing into being means, essence manifest.
克：感知是创造吗？你说的创造是什么意思？我知道感知意味着什么。让我们坚持这个词。 我不知道创造是什么意义。生孩子？烤面包？ 德：不，我不会这么说。从这里搬到那里也是生产。 克：不要把一切都归结为创造。上班不是创造。 你在问什么是创造？创造，生产，创造以前不存在的东西。 当我们使用“创造”这个词，创造不同的东西，创造雕像，创造，这意味着什么？ 是精髓吗？带来了什么？它只能带来两样东西：思想或情感。 德：带来意义，精髓显现。
K: I ask of you what is meant by creation? I do not know. Bringing into being something new or bringing into being in the mould of the known. P: Creation must be bringing into being the new, not the old. K: Therefore let us be clear. Bringing into being something totally new. At what level? Watch it. At the sensory level, at the intellectual level, at the memory level; where? Bringing into being something new; where? So that you see it, so that you can visualize it? The man who produced the jet because he was familiar with the piston, the internal combustion engine, was that totally new? So when you say bringing into being something totally new, at what level? P: At the sensory level. K: At the sensory? Can you paint a new picture which is non-verbal? Can you paint something that is totally new? Which is, can you bring into being something which is not self-expression? It is not new if it is self-expression.
克：我问你，创造是什么意思？我不知道。 把新的或现存的事物带入已知的模式中。 普：创造必须带来新的，而不是旧的。 克：所以，让我们明确一点。带来全新的东西。在什么级别？小心。 在感官层面，在智力层面，在记忆层面；在哪里？ 带来新事物；哪里？这样，你就能看到它，就可以想象它？ 生产喷气式飞机的人，因为他熟悉活塞，内燃机，那是全新的东西吗？ 所以，当你说带来一个全新的东西时，是在什么层面上？ 普：在感官层面。 克：在感官上？你能画一幅非语言的新图画吗？你能画一些全新的东西吗？ 也就是说，你能带来一些不属于自我表达的东西吗？如果是自我的表达，它并不新鲜。
P: If creation is something entirely new which is unrelated to any self-expression, then probably all self-expression ceases, all manifestation ceases. K: Wait, wait. P: I will say that because there does not exist anything which is not self-expression........ K: That is what I want to get at. The man who discovered the jet - at the moment when he discovered it, there was no self-expression. He translated it into self-expression. It is something discovered, then it is put into a formula. I only know that the flame of perception has brought about the essence, and now the question is, has that essence any expression? Does it create anything new?
普：如果创造是与任何自我表达无关的全新事物， 那么，可能所有的自我表达都停止了，所有的显现都停止了。 克：等等，等等。 普：我会这么说，因为不存在任何不是自我表达的东西…… 克：这就是我想说的。发现喷气式飞机的人 —— 在他发现它的那一刻，没有自我表达。 他把它翻译成自我表达。某个东西被发现了，然后，被放入一个公式中。 我只知道，感知的火焰带来了精髓， 现在的问题是，这个精髓有什么表达吗？它创造出什么新东西？
D: It creates a new perception. K: No. There is no new perception. The flame is the perception. Flame is flame all the time. One moment pure flame of perception, then forgotten, and again pure flame of perception, then forgotten. Each time the flame is new. D: Perception touches matter, and there is an explosion and there is mutation. Now that which emerges out of it, you cannot postulate. It is the discovery of the jet engine. K: Let us put it this way. In that essence when there is action, that essence is not concerned with self-expression. It is concerned with action. Action then is total, not partial. P: I want to ask one more question. The manifestation of this...... K: Which is action. P: It has contact with matter. K: There is action.
德：它创造了一种新的感知。 克：没有。没有新的感知。火焰就是感知。火焰一直都是火焰。 那一刻，纯粹的感知之火，然后被遗忘，再一次是纯粹的感知之火，然后被遗忘。每一次，火焰都是新的。 德：感知触及物质，有爆炸，有突变。 现在，从中浮现出来的东西，你不能假设。这就是喷气发动机的发现。 克：这么说吧。在那个精髓中，当有行动时，那个精髓与自我表达无关。 它与行动相关。因此，行动是完全的，而不是局部的。 普：我想再问一个问题。这种表现形式…… 克：也就是行为。 普：它与物质有接触。 克：那是行为。
A: Up to perception we go with you. K: No, Sir. You have gone further. There is a perception which is flame, which has distilled the essence. You cannot say I have got it. There is only essence. Now that essence acts or may not act. If it acts, it has no frontiers at all. There is no "me" acting. Obviously. P: That itself is creation. Creation is not something apart from that. K: The very expression of that essence is creation in action, not new action or old action. The essence is expression.
阿：到达感知，我们与您同行。 克：不，先生。你走得更远。有一种感知，它是火焰，它提炼出精髓。 你不能说我抓住它了。只有精髓。现在精髓在行动，或者没有行动。 如果它采取行动，它根本没有边界。没有“我”在演戏。明显地。 普：这本身就是创造。创造不是除此之外的东西。 克：这种精髓的表达是行为中的创造，而不是新的行为或旧的行为。精髓是表达。
P: Then is perception also action? K: Of course. See the beauty of it. Forget action. See what has taken place in you. Perception without any qualification is a flame. It distils whatever it perceives. Whatever it perceives it distils because it is the flame. It is not a sensory perception. When there is that perception which distils at every minute, when you say I am a fool, to perceive that - and in that perception there is the essence - that essence acts or it does not act, depending upon the environment, depending upon where it is; but in that action there is no "me", there is no motive at all. BOMBAY 19th February, l971
普：那么感知也是行为吗？ 克：当然。看它的美。忘记行为。看看你在发生什么。 没有任何限定的感知是火焰。它提炼出它所感知到的任何东西。 无论它感知到什么，它都会提炼，因为它是火焰。 它不是一种感官知觉。 当有那种感知，每时每刻都在提炼，当你说我是个傻瓜时，感知它 —— 在这种感知中，有精髓 —— 精髓行动或不行动，取决于环境，取决于它在哪里； 但在那个行动中没有“我”，根本没有动机。 孟买 1971.2.19