1-15 the function of a teacher 教师的职责

knowledge 知识
the other part of life 生命的另一部分
what part does knowledge play 知识所扮演的角色
three streams 三条流
a miracle 一个奇迹
sentiment 情绪

1-15 1973.5.25

K: I don't know if you were considering what we were talking about the other day: how knowledge conditions the mind and whether it is possible to teach facts, give information and so on - all of which is knowledge - without conditioning the mind. One has given such tremendous importance to knowledge. To some Indian minds knowledge is a way to God. In the East, I think, knowledge represents a way of life in which the very studying of the sacred books - the Talmud, the various Sutras and the Koran - memorising and repeating the texts, brings you nearer to what they call God, or Allah, or Jehovah.

克里希那穆提：你们在考虑我们前几天谈论的内容吗： 知识如何限制这颗头脑，以及是否有可能讲授事实、提供信息等等 —— 这一切都是知识 —— 与此同时，避免它对这颗头脑的限制。 一个人赋予知识如此巨大的重要性。对一些印度人的头脑来说，知识是通往上帝的一种方式。在东方，我认为，知识代表了一种生命方式，在这种生命方式中，通过研究神圣的书籍 —— 塔木德、各种经典和古兰经 —— 背诵和重复这些文本，让你更接近他们所谓的上帝、阿拉、耶和华。

We are saying that conditioning takes place not only culturally, in the sense of religion, social morality and so on, but also through knowledge itself. Is it possible to teach students and ourselves to free the mind from knowledge and yet use knowledge without causing the mind to function mechanically? If I were a teacher here, I would be greatly concerned how to bring about this unconditioning in myself and in the student. We went into that: in the very act of teaching I learn about my own conditioning and see the conditioning of the child and learn how to uncondition the mind. Now, can we go into this question of whether knowledge conditions the mind, and if it does, how to prevent it; how not to shape the mind in the very act of teaching and giving information.

我们说，条件限制不仅体现在文化、宗教、社会道德等层面上，而且还体现在知识本身。在教育学生和我们自己时，能不能把这颗头脑从知识中解放出来，同时又能使用知识，而不使这颗头脑机械地运作？如果我是这里的老师，我会非常关心：怎么使我自己和学生不受知识的限制？我们深入过那：在教学过程中，我学习到我自身的条件限制，同时看到孩子们的这种局限，并学习如何解除头脑的局限。现在，我们可以进入这个问题吗？知识是否在限制这颗头脑，如果它是，如何阻止它？如何在传授和提供信息的过程中，却不限制这颗头脑？

Q: Knowledge itself doesn't condition your mind. It's your attitude to knowledge which conditions it; just having the facts in your head doesn't condition your mind.

发问者：知识本身并没有限制你的头脑。你对知识的态度限制了它；仅仅将事实记在脑袋中，并不会限制您的头脑。

K: Why should I carry the facts in my mind? They are in the encyclopaedia, in the books - why should I carry all this in my mind?

克里希那穆提：我为什么要把事实记在我的头脑中？它们在百科全书中，在书上 —— 我为什么要把这些都记在我的头脑里？

Q: A great deal of the function of the mind is on a level where knowledge as a tool is necessary.

发问者：这颗头脑的大部分功能是，在某个层面上说，把必要的知识作为工具来使用。

K: If I want to build a bridge I must have a certain knowledge and experience, I need technical information. I use that knowledge to build a bridge. I see the necessity of a certain knowledge being held in the mind, but how am I to prevent that knowledge being misused by the engineer who says, "I am going to use this for self-advancement?" Is that the problem?

克里希那穆提：如果我想建一座桥我必须有一定的知识和经验，我需要技术方面的信息。我用这些知识来建一座桥。我看到，在头脑中保留某种知识的必要性，但是我如何防止那些知识被滥用？ —— 被工程师认为：“我将用它来提升自我”，是那个问题吗？

Q: (2) Isn't it also that the mind can't keep still? One goes for a walk and one is thinking about building the bridge, not looking at the trees.

发问者2：这样做，不就使这颗头脑不能保持安静了吗？一个人在散步，却在考虑建桥，而没有去看那些树。

克里希那穆提：但如果我必须建造一座桥，我必须考虑很多与之相关的东西。

Q: It would seem that the more knowledge and information I can comfortably carry in the mind the better off I am, because I don't have to look it up in a book. I can refer to it very easily.

发问者：似乎是这样的，我越是能轻松地记住的更多的知识和信息，我就越能做好，因为我不必在书中查找。我可以很容易地引用它。

K: So what is the function of knowledge? Here you are, teaching mathematics, geography, biology and so on; what is the function of it in life?

克里希那穆提：那么，知识的功能是什么？你在这儿，传授数学、地理、生物等；它在生命中的作用是什么？

Q: It's the background you draw from in your action, whether it's knowledge from experience or from a book.

K: I was talking yesterday to some parents in London. Their son is nineteen. When he was eighteen he was going to university and suddenly he dropped it all, took to drugs and gave whatever money he had to a particular guru, and he is meditating for an hour a day. The parents are concerned, they ask, "What is going to happen to him?"

克里希那穆提：我昨天在伦敦，和某些家长谈话。他们的儿子十九岁了。当他十八岁上大学的时候，突然间，他辍学、吸毒，把他所有的钱都给了一位特别的上师，他每天冥想一个小时。父母很担心，他们问到：“他会发生什么？”

What is going to happen to these boys and girls we have here after you have taught them, given them all the information about art, music, geometry, history and English, whatever it is?

在我们这儿，当你教过这些男孩和女孩，传授了他们关于艺术、音乐、几何、历史和英语等课程的所有的信息之后，他们会怎么样？

They have acquired all that marvellous technical knowledge and then what happens to them? Will it make them glorified clerks in a rotten society? What for? If a boy does not go to university and get a degree, he finds it very difficult to get a job unless he has got some particular quality. So what is it we are trying to do? We give them all that knowledge and then leave a vast field, the other part of life, completely disregarded. Do you know what I mean?

他们获得了所有不可思议的技术知识，然后，他们在发生什么？他们会在一个腐朽的社会中，成为光荣的员工吗？传授这些知识的意义何在？ 如果一个男孩没有上大学并获得证书，他会发现很难找到工作，除非他有某种特殊的品质。因此，我们正在尝试什么？我们给了他们所有的知识，然后他们离去，去了广阔的领域，生命的另一部分，被彻底地忽视了。 你懂我的意思吗？

Q: (1) I don't know if it's disregarded completely. The students find out in the course of this what they enjoy doing, where they can put their energy. They are finding out gradually what they can spend their life doing.

发问者1：我不知道它是否被彻底地忽视了。在这个过程中，学生们会发现他们喜欢做什么，他们该把精力放在什么地方。他们正在逐渐发现他们这辈子可以做些什么。

Q: (2) They are also coming into contact with other values because we listen to your talks together and as far as we can, we bring those to bear on our relationship with the student.

发问者2：他们也接触到其他有价值的因素，因为我们一起听你的讲话，并尽我们所能，把那些因素放入我们与学生的关系中。

Q: (3) But the student has to get a sense of purpose in life that goes beyond the intellectual accomplishments which will take care of his daily living. He has to see the whole picture of living: " What am I living for?"

发问者3：但是学生必须有一种生命的使命感，它超越了智力上的成就，并将照顾他日常生活。他必须看到生命的全貌：“我活着是为了什么？”

Q: (6) There is a great deal of uncertainty in young people and in other people's minds too, about the area where knowledge is good and useful and where it is irrelevant, where it goes wrong. I think the confusion between these two is constantly coming up among young people, among people who listen to you and have read your books. In a way it is clear and yet there is confusion about where the frontier lies between the two.

发问者6：在年轻人和其他人的头脑中，关于如何去区分知识的好与坏、有用与无用等等，有很多的不确定性。我认为，这两者之间的混淆正在不断地出现，它出现在青年人身上，出现在听过你的讲话和读过你的书的人身上。在某种程度上，它很清楚；但是，两者之间的边界在哪里，存在着混淆。

克里希那穆提：除了“讲课”之外 —— 教师还有什么作用？

Q: Could it possibly be to inspire the student with the kind of energy which he can then continue on his own?

发问者：有没有可能激励学生去产生一种能量，然后，他可以自己继续保持下去？

K: Do you inspire your students? I dislike that word 'inspire'. I don't want to inspire somebody - who am I?

克里希那穆提：你激励你的学生吗？我不喜欢“激励”那个词。我不想激励某个人 —— 我是谁？

Q: You don't inspire them, you release them to their own energy. You remove the thing which is impeding them.

发问者：你不是在激励他们，而是将他们自己的能量释放出来。你移除阻碍他们的东西。

K: Is that the function of a teacher? - to make them study, to inspire them, encourage them, or stimulate them to study when they are not interested? You say that we have to help them to find their purpose in life.

克里希那穆提：那是一个教师的职责吗？ —— 让他们学习，激励他们，鼓励他们，或者在他们不感兴趣的时候刺激他们学习？你说，我们必须帮助他们找到生命的使命。

Q: To find out what life is about in the sense of where I, as an individual, fit into the whole of life.

发问者：去找出什么是生命作为一个个体，我在其中的位置，如何融入整个生命。

K: Look at what is happening in the world. Thousands of boys are leaving university, taking to drugs, having individual sex or group sex, they run away, join appalling communities, sects, shave their heads, dance in the streets, give all their money to some guru.

克里希那穆提：看看这个世界上正在发生的事情。成千上万的孩子们正在离开大学，吸毒，发生个人性行为或集体性行为，他们逃跑，加入令人震惊的社区、教派，剃光头，在街上跳舞，把所有的钱都交给某个大师。

K: No, not that they won't do it. What are we trying to do as teachers? We give them vegetarian food, ask them to get up in time, to be clean, keep their hair tidy, try to tell them to adjust themselves. What is it we are basically attempting to do here?

克里希那穆提：不，不是他们不会这样做。而是作为一名教师，我们试图做什么？我们给他们提供素食，让他们按时起床，保持干净，保持头发整洁，试着告诉他们调整自己。我们在这里主要尝试做什么？

Q: The primary thing is to be aware of our conditioning in our relationship with the child.

发问者：首要的事情是在与孩子们的交往中，要觉察到我们所存在的局限。

Q: As it is, we have to spend so much time in relationship with the children, pointing out all these things which they do daily, like running along the corridors. In that way you are almost bound to spoil your relationship with the child. You see, a child here hasn't got one mother, he's got twenty, thirty mothers - all take it in turn to point out to him what he is doing wrong. What I want to know is, what kind of education, what approach do we have to the child that would make him not want to run down the corridor any longer.

发问者：事实上，我们必须花很多时间处理与孩子们的关系，指出他们每天做的所有这些事情，比如在走廊上跑。那样的话，你几乎肯定会破坏你与孩子的关系。你看，这个孩子不止一个母亲，他有二十个、三十个母亲 —— 所有这些都显示、并指出他做错了。我想知道的是，我们对孩子采取什么样的教育，采取什么样的方法，才能让他不想再在走廊上跑了。

K: No. I would like to look at it this way - I may be wrong. You know what's happening in the world; politically all governments are corrupt, really corrupt, not superficially but deeply. And there are all these gurus going round the world, collecting money and followers, distorting the minds of young people; there are the drugs of various kinds, there is the army, there is business. Seeing what is going on, not abstractly but actually, what are we trying to do with these children? Make them fit into that?

克里希那穆提：不。我会这样来看 —— 我可能是错的。你知道世界上正在发生什么；在政治层面上，所有政府都是腐败的，真正的腐败，不是在表面上，是深层的腐败。还有这些大师们，在世界各地收割金钱和追随者，扭曲年轻人的头脑；各种毒品、军队、商业。看到正在发生的事情，不是抽象地，而是真实地看到，我们试图对这些孩子做什么？让他们融入其中吗？

Q: Partly to make them see all that as well; it's partly reflected in our own environment.

发问者：一部分工作是：让他们也看到那一切；另一部分工作是：看到我们自己所处的环境。

K: No. Do let's be a little more concrete, a little more direct about it. What are we trying to do?

克里希那穆提：不。让我们更具体一点，更直接一点。我们试图去做什么？

Q: (1) I want to encourage them to look at life with a greater seriousness. They seem very casual and relaxed, particularly the young ones.

发问者1：我想鼓励他们更严肃地看待生命。他们看起来很随意和放松，尤其是年轻人。

Q: (2) When education was most significant to me it was in moments when my mental horizon was suddenly expanded through the influence of a teacher or through some cultural impact. There was an expansion of a sense of values which put things into perspective.

发问者2：当教育对我来说最重要的时候，在那一刻，通过一位老师或某些文化的影响，我的精神视野会突然扩大。存在一种价值感的扩展，使得事情变得更加清晰。

Q: (4) Aren't we trying to find out how to live differently? Ways have started which are so ugly, the ways of doing whatever you want, which is so shallow and pointless. Maybe there is another way for the child in which there is infinite depth.

发问者4：我们不是在尝试去找出一种不同的生活方式吗？方式已经开始了，它那么丑陋，做你想做的任何事情，那么的肤浅和毫无意义。也许有另一种方式，可以让孩子拥有无限的深度。

Q: (5) The personality of the person who brings something to the child has to be acceptable to him. The child feels we are rather ordinary - I don't see why he should listen to us. I feel we have to bring into being a new quality in ourselves, primarily.

发问者5：给孩子传授东西的人的性格必须被他接受。孩子觉得我们很普通 —— 我看不出他为什么要听我们的。我觉得我们必须首先在自己身上产生一种新的品质。

Q: (1) Not in a self-centred sense, but primarily to find out, certainly for ourselves, a better way of actually living together.

发问者1：不是在以自我为中心的意义上，而主要是为了找到一种能更好地在一起生活的方式。

Q: (2) Well, if we find that out for ourselves, aren't we finding it out as a whole, not just for our own selves?

发问者2：好吧，如果我们自己发现了这一点，难道我们不是作为一个整体地发现了它，而不只是为了我们自己吗？

Q: (3) Nothing is for our own, of course; we are not subtly trying to glorify our individual selves, on the contrary. But I feel that the quality of the being of each one here needs to be immensely more vital.

发问者3：当然不是为了我们自己；相反，我们没有试图巧妙地去美化我们的自我。但我觉得这里的每个人，需要拥有更多的活力。

克里希那穆提：我想解决它。我在这里，作为一位老师 —— 我试图去做什么？

Q: So many of the students are already aware of the happenings in the world outside, I think that's why some of the older ones are questioning the corruption of the government.

发问者：这么多学生已经知道外面世界发生的事情，我想，这就是为什么一些年长的学生质疑政府的腐败。

K: Yes, then what? When they are faced with all this, when they go out into the world, will they be absorbed by it? Or just say, "Sorry, I won't have anything to do with that", and move away from it?

克里希那穆提：是的，然后呢？当他们面对这一切，当他们离开校园走进这个世界，他们会被它同化吗？或者只是说，“对不起，我不会与它有任何关系”，然后远离它？

K: How will they find out, what will give them the light, the insight to say, "I won't"?

克里希那穆提：他们将如何发现，是什么会带给他们这种光，这种洞察去告诉他们：“我不会”？

Q: (1) That is what we are attempting to do here, and that is what they are also challenging.

发问者1：那就是我们在这里试图去做的，也是他们所面临的挑战。

K: Now let's be clear - is that what we are trying to do? Helping them to see 'what is', the corruption and all the rest of it, and not to enter into that trap at all?

克里希那穆提：现在，让我们弄清楚 —— 那就是我们想要做的吗？ 帮助他们看到“什么是”、这里面的腐败和其余的一切，并且，完全地不掉进那个陷阱？

K: What is the other part? Giving them knowledge? Helping them to have courage to battle? I asked the principal of one of the schools in India. I said, "You have been doing this for nearly forty years, you have spent your life in this, has it been worthwhile?" He answered, "Yes." So I asked, "In all those forty years has there been a boy or girl who was outstanding, who did not enter into this terrible morass of iniquity?" He answered, "I don't know, very few were." So I said, "You mean in all those forty years you spent here only one or two have kept out of it?"

克里希那穆提：另一部分是什么？给他们知识？帮助他们拥有战斗的勇气？我在印度，问过一位中学校长。我说：“你做了近四十年的校长，你的一生都花费在这上面，值得吗？” 他回答：“是的。” 于是我问：“在这四十年里，有没有一个杰出的男孩或女孩，没有陷入到这种可怕的罪恶的泥沼中？” 他回答说：“我不知道，可能很少。” 所以我说，“你的意思是，你在这里度过的这四十年，只有一两个人没有陷进去吗？”

发问者：这种困难在哪里？—— 在老师这里，还是在受教育者身上？

K: Both. You haven't got the material. If you want to make a good suit you must have good material.

克里希那穆提：两者都有。你还没拿到这块料。要想做一件好西装，必须要有好的材料。

Q: (2) It's no good at all if you don't take any material you can find anywhere; the whole thing goes by the board if you are only having the best. But pick the first child you can from the slums of London. If it can be done at all, it can be done with that child.

发问者2：如果你不带走任何你能找到的材料，那就没有好处；如果你只拿最好的，那么整个事情都得由这块材料决定。但是从伦敦的贫民窟中拣一个孩子来教育。如果能教育好，那么，其他的孩子也能做到。

Q: (3) I wouldn't use that phrase - good material or bad material - I would just say they are all human beings.

发问者3：我不会用那个词 —— 好的材料或坏的材料 —— 我只想说：他们都是人类。

Q: (4) Then it has the implication that society is human beings all of whose intention is to do the right thing, to act intuitively, to be sensitive, aware, to be conscious of their actions. If that is so, then it seems to me that it defeats the purpose of having such a school, if we just take the mass of humanity and say everyone's intention is to be awake and to be sensitive, that influence plays such a small part. I think there is certainly a difference. I think it is a question of who comes here, who is here - whether it be staff or student - and what is their intention in being here.

发问者4：那么，它暗示着社会就是人类，他们所有人的意图都是做正确的事情，凭直觉行事，敏感，清醒，意识到他们自己的行为。如果是这样，那么在我看来，设立这样的学校，其目的就落空了，如果社会中的多数人，他们每个人的意图都是清醒的和敏感的，那么学校就起了很小的作用。我认为一定有某种区别。我认为这是一个问题：谁来了，谁在这儿 —— 不管是教职工，还是学生 —— 以及他们来这里的意图是什么。

Q: (5) There are some who have shown a predisposition to live in a different way, they have shown interest. There is an intelligence already.

发问者5：有些人表现出了对不同的生活方式的爱好，他们表现出兴趣。已经有早慧的苗头了。

Q: A flower, a dog, has no knowledge and therefore it lives the sort of life it does. You need knowledge; how you use that knowledge gives the measure of you.

发问者：一朵花，一只狗，没有知识，因此它过着它所拥有的那种生活。你需要知识；你使用那些知识的方式可以衡量你。

K: So you are saying, how a human being uses knowledge is the really important thing.

克里希那穆提：所以你说，一个人如何使用知识才是真正重要的事情。

Q: Knowledge which is academic knowledge, which is scientific knowledge; it is part of what we are. At this moment we are using it for insight, if you like.

发问者：知识即学术知识，即科学知识；它是我们的一部分。如果您愿意，目前我们正在使用它来获得洞察力。

K: Let's call it academic knowledge; that's one thing. Knowledge of how to live using that knowledge is another thing. Or is knowledge the whole thing? And where does freedom, where does spontaneity come in this? There is academic knowledge; if I learn about myself and use that knowledge about myself there is no freedom in that. I don't know if I am conveying this?

克里希那穆提：我们称之为学术知识；那是一部分。如何使用这些知识去生活的知识是另一部分。或者，知识包含了上述的一切？自由和自发性从何而来？有学术性的知识；如果我学习我自己并使用关于我自己的知识，那么，其中就没有自由。我不知道我是否传达出了这个意思？

K: So there is self-knowing and academic knowledge, which is always the past, adding to it, taking away from it, moulding it - all that. If I say "I know myself," it is the knowledge which I have acquired in observing myself. That doesn't give me freedom - I am still caught in knowledge of myself.

克里希那穆提：所以，有自我认识和学术知识，它们总是属于过去，增加它，剔除它，塑造它 —— 所有的那些。 如果我说“我知道我自己”，它就是知识，是在我观察我自己的时候所获得的知识。但那并不会给我自由 —— 我依然陷入在这些知识中。

Q: That is using the ways of scientific knowledge and applying it to self-knowledge; that is the problem.

发问者：那是使用科学知识的方式，并将其应用于自我认识；那就是问题所在。

K: No. Suppose somebody has never been to university, he can learn about himself in his relationship to everybody.

克里希那穆提：不。假设一个人从未上过大学，在他与每个人的关系中，他能学习他自己。

发问者：但是他是否以此为基础，他是否将这些知识储存起来？

K: The moment he stores it, then that becomes an impediment, therefore he is never free. I wonder if I am making myself clear?

克里希那穆提：当他储存它的那一刻，它就会成为一个障碍，因此他永远不自由。我想知道我是否说清楚了？

Q: Are you saying that in learning about yourself there are two things. One is picking up little facts about yourself and storing them up and saying, "I do this and this." The other is a perception of that total process to a profound depth in which you suddenly see the whole thing and have then finished with it.

发问者：你是说，在学习你自己的过程中，有两种情形。一种是收集关于你自己的琐碎的事实，把它们储存起来，然后说：“我做了这个和那个。” 另一种是对整个过程的深刻感知，在这个过程中，你突然看见了整个事物，并了结了它。

克里希那穆提：也就是说，与你所积累的关于你自己的知识无关。

Q: You mean you see to a degree that makes all the knowledge of the little pieces put together disappear, because you have seen them.

发问者：你的意思是，你看的深度让所有碎片化的知识都消失了，因为你已经看到了它们。

K: That's right. That is freedom. If I learn about myself and say, "I mustn't do this, I must do that" - you know all the petty little things that go on - that knowledge is going to completely cripple me: I daren't do anything freely, spontaneously. Now I think we begin to see what the different kinds of knowledge are. So what is it we are trying to bring about in the student? We don't only teach book knowledge, that is understood. Then what is the other? Are you trying to help the student to know himself little by little? - collect knowledge about himself through little actions? Or are we trying to help him to have an insight into the whole of it? I think this is important. How is he to have a total insight into himself so that everything falls into place? - all the little things - how to behave, how to have good relationships, everything falls into place. Now, how am I to convey this and help him to it?

克里希那穆提：没错。那就是自由。如果我学习我自己并说：“我不能做这个，我必须做那个” —— 你所知道的所有琐碎的东西 —— 这种知识会彻底削弱我：我不敢自由地、自发地做任何事情。现在，我想，我们开始看到不同种类的知识是什么。那么，我们尝试给学生带来什么？我们不仅要教书本上的知识，那一点大家已经理解。那么另一种是什么呢？您是否正在尝试帮助学生一点一点地理解他自己？ —— 通过细碎的行为收集关于他自己的知识？或者，我们试图帮助他对整个过程有一种洞察？我认为这是重要的。他如何才能对他自己有一个完全的洞察，让一切都井井有条？ —— 所有的小事情 —— 如何行动、如何拥有良好的人际关系，一切事情都水到渠成。现在，我如何传达这一点并帮助他做到这一点？

Q: If one is indicating an action, a process in the present tense, it seems that one must be in that process oneself; one must be actively exploring it in oneself, otherwise it becomes just another fact that is added to all the others.

发问者：如果一个人在示范一个动作，也就是，一个正在发生的过程，它看起来，一个人必须自己处于那个过程中；一个人必须亲自积极地探索，否则它就变成了另一个事实，变成了附加物。

K: Just another series of ideas; I understand that. Listen: I am trying to teach mathematics and also I am telling the student to get up early, to go to bed at the right time, eat properly, wash, etc. And yet I want to help him to have an insight which will enable him to get up at the proper time and do all the other things easily. Now there are three things I'm involved in: academic learning, telling him what to do, and at the same time I say to him, "Look, if you get the insight everything falls into place." I have all the three streams harmoniously running together. Now how am I to convey this? How am I to help him?

克里希那穆提：仅仅是另一个系列的想法；我理解那一点。听：我正在尝试教数学，同时，我告诉学生早点起床，按时睡觉，正确饮食，洗手等生活上的细节。另外，我想帮助他拥有一个洞察，这将使得他在恰当的时间起床，并轻松地完成所有其余的事情。现在我这里有三件事：学习知识，告诉他该做什么，同时我告诉他，“看，如果你有这种洞察，一切会水到渠成。” 我要让这三条事件流，一起和谐地流动。现在我该如何传达这些？我该怎么帮助他？

K: No, no. Again you are fitting him into this. Then he will say, "All right, I'll fit into this."

克里希那穆提：不，不。你又让他适应了这个。然后他会说，“好吧，我会适应这个的。”

Look at the problem first. Academic learning is one stream. The other is the details, such as, "Get up, don't do this, don't do that" - which you also have to do. And the third stream is to say, "Look, to be so supremely intelligent means you'll instinctively do the right thing in behaviour." Let all three streams run together harmoniously.

首先来看问题。学术知识的学习是一个流。另一个是行为上的细节，比如，“起来，不要做这个，不要做那个” —— 你也必须教给他们这些内容。第三条流就是告诉他们， “看，这样的超级智慧，意味着在行为上，你会本能地做正确的事情。” 让这三条流汇合在一起，和谐地奔流。

K: No, don t say it's difficult, don't say anything, but first see the thing. If you say it is very difficult, it is finished.

克里希那穆提：不，不要说它难，不要说任何话，而是先看这件事情。如果你说它很困难，它就结束了。

K: No, it is not a concept, it is not an idea - concept means an idea, a conclusion. I see the three things: the insight or the intelligence, the detailed behaviour, and academic learning; and I feel they are not moving together, they are not forming one harmonious river. So I say to myself: what am I to do, how am I to teach these three things so that they make a whole? When you listen to this you conclude, you say, "Yes, I accept that as an idea." I say it is not an idea. Then it becomes difficult, then you say, "I don't know what to do." But if it is a reality, how am I to convey the reality of it to the student - not the idea. Personally I have never had a problem or a conflict about all this.

克里希那穆提：不，它不是一个概念，也不是一个想法 —— 概念意味着一个想法，一个结论。我看到三件事：洞察或智慧、详细的行为和学术知识的学习；我觉得它们没有一起运动，它们没有形成一条和谐的河流。所以我对我自己说：我该怎么办，我怎么教这三件事，使它们成为一个整体？当你听完后，得出结论，你说：“是的，我接受这个想法。” 我说，这不是一个想法。然后，它变得困难，接着你说，“我不知道该怎么做。” 但如果它是一个现实，我该如何向学生传达它的真实性 —— 而不是这个想法。就我本人而言，关于这一切，我从来没有遇到过问题或冲突。

Now how am I as a teacher, living here in a rather intimate relationship with the students - intimate in the sense of daily contact - how am I to show this? I am asking you, how will you show this to the child? - but not as an idea. If it is an idea, then it means you must practise it, you must battle with it, all that nonsense begins.

现在，我作为一名老师，与学生们保持着相当亲密的联系 —— 日常接触意义上的亲密 —— 我该如何展示这些？我问你，你将如何向孩子展示这些？—— 但不是作为一个想法。如果它是一个想法，那么这意味着你必须去实践它，你必须与它战斗，那所有的废话都开始了。

克里希那穆提：以什么方式？你什么时候用“有意义”这个词？

K: Sir, do you know what you are saying? I won't listen, I am looking at that bird and you say, "See the beauty of this." Let the seed be born in him. How are you going to plant that seed? You understand?

克里希那穆提：先生，你知道你在说什么吗？我不想听，我看那只鸟，你说，“看它的美。” 让种子在他的里面生发。你打算如何播下那一粒种子？你理解吗？

Q: Yes, I understand. But I also see that if you can only plant the seed, and if relationship is not a meeting of one balanced mind with another balanced mind, then nothing comes of it.

发问者：是的，我理解。但我也看到，如果你只能播下种子，如果这种联系不是一个平衡的头脑与另一个平衡的头脑之间的，那么它就不会产生任何结果。

K: I agree. Now how do you propose this to happen? Take a boy, you help him, you give him everything he wants in the sense of good environment and good food, you tell him what to do, teach him academically and all the rest of it; then something happens and everything goes totally wrong for the rest of the boy's life. He takes to drink, women or drugs, cheats, does the most appalling things possible - he is finished. I have seen this happen. If you plant a seed in the ground it may die, but the seed itself is the truth of the tree, of the plant. Now, can this be done with us, with the children, with you and me?

克里希那穆提：我同意。现在你有什么提议，以便于这种情况发生？拿一个男孩来说，你帮助他，给他他想要的一切，比如好的环境和好的食物，你告诉他该做什么，教他学业等等；然后发生了一些事情，并且在男孩的余生中一切都变得完全错误。他酗酒，女人或毒品，作弊，做最骇人听闻的事情 —— 他完蛋了。我见过这种情况。如果你在地里播下一粒种子，它可能会死，但种子本身就是树的真理，植物的真理。现在，我们、孩子们、你和我能一起完成这件事情吗？

Q: (2) A child comes here perhaps from a very disturbed background for a very short time; we can only offer what we have. If we are fairly balanced, if we are very serious about it, if there is a right relationship, he takes that away when he goes out into the world.

发问者2：一个孩子可能来自于一个非常不安的背景，在这儿待很短的时间；我们只能提供我们所拥有的。如果我们相当平衡，如果我们对此非常严肃，如果有正确的关系，他会在他走出去的时候把它带走。

克里希那穆提：你是说，“如果我们是严肃的，如果我们是平衡的” —— 但我们是吗？

K: Am I, are you, are we basically serious and balanced? - serious enough to say, "Look", and convey it verbally and non-verbally?

克里希那穆提：我，你，我们在本质上是严肃和平衡的吗？ —— 严肃地说，“看”，在言语上和非言语上传达它吗？

K: To convey non-verbally one must be astonishingly clear oneself, limpid, and have that real seriousness, all that we said just now. Am I, are you?

克里希那穆提：要以非语言的方式传达，一个人必须惊人地清晰、明澈他自己，并具有我们刚才所说的那种真正的严肃性。我和你，是这种人吗？

Q: Aren't we teaching and learning together? Aren't we giving attention to every detail that happens during the day? So all the time you take the instance that presents itself. Because you feel so strongly about this the force is there and so you are dealing with every moment of the day. And it's not a correction, that is insight, if you like. And it's also linked with knowledge.

发问者：我们不是在一起教和学吗？难道我们没有关注白天发生的每一个细节吗？因此，您一直都在通过呈现它自身，来举例子。因为对这些，你感到如此地强烈，力量就在那里，在一天的每一刻，你正在处理。如果您愿意，它不是一种更正，那是洞察。它也与知识有关。

K: I understand that. But I am trying to find out how I am to convey this thing? - the three streams moving together.

克里希那穆提：我理解那。但我试图找出我如何传达这件事？—— 三个流一起运动。

Q: You deal with the fact. To take one example: someone asked, "Can I put the tent up?" And I said, "Don't put it near the road." She said, " Why not? I'm a free person" - in other words, "You needn't tell me." So I told the person why. You go into it so that she understands the situation, which is factual; it includes the academic side and the intonation of the voice comes in too.

发问者：你处理这个事实。举个例子：有人问：“我可以把帐篷搭起来吗？” 我说，“不要把它放在路边上。” 她说，“为什么不呢？我是一个自由的人” —— 换句话说，“你不必告诉我。” 所以我告诉她为什么。你参与，让她理解这种情况，也就是实际情况；它包括学术方面的，也包含声音的语调。

Q: It does sometimes and it doesn't at other times. You have to work at it and go into it again.

Q: All the time. Not in the sense of: " You haven't done that." That's pigeonholing and petty and gives a wrong feeling, not insight. It's as though you came into a room and said, "You don't do it that way."

发问者：一直。不是从某种意义上说：“你还没有那样做。” 那是在分割，是琐碎的，给人一种错误的感觉，而不是洞察。就好像你走进一个房间，说：“你不要那样做。”

K: I see that. I'm not questioning it, I think it's all right - I don't mean that in a patronizing way.

克里希那穆提：我看到了。我不是在质疑它，我认为这很好 —— 我没有高人一等的意思。

Q: The other side of it is, that if we only stay at that level and that becomes the element in which we are working in relating to the other, if that is so, then again it comes back to ourselves and our relationship - a balanced relationship between balanced people, if it is possible. If not, it is always a corrective measure and never a penetrating gesture, a penetrating relationship.

发问者：它的另一方面是，如果我们只停留在那个层面上，那就成为了这种因素，也就是：我们处于与他人相互联络的工作状态中，如果是那样，那么它又回到了我们自己身上而我们的关系 —— 一种平衡者之间的平衡关系，如果可能的话。如果不是，它始终是一种纠正措施，而不是一种穿透性的姿态，一种穿透性的关系。

Q: (2) It depends whether it goes to that level and you can feel it. Perhaps I am talking too much about a specific example, because I know the situation and I know that child and I know my own relationship with that child on that level. Perhaps I am questioning whether or not it ever has penetrated the surface. I don't always feel that is true in relationship with a young child. Do we have the right to select and say: it seems that there is a possibility of insight in one child, or that in another child there isn't that possibility. Do we reject the child, or do we say: this is what this child needs and relate it to that?

发问者2：这取决于它是否达到了那个层面，你能感觉到它。也许我在一个具体的例子上说得太多了，因为我知道那种情况，我知道那个孩子，我知道我自己和那个孩子在那个层面上的关系。也许，我在质疑它是否曾经穿透了这层表面。在与年幼的孩子的关系中，我并不总是觉得这是真的。我们是否有权选择并说：似乎在一个孩子身上，有洞察的可能性，而在另一个孩子身上，没有这种可能性。我们是在拒绝这个孩子呢？还是说：这就是这个孩子所需要的，并与之相处？

K: Sir, all you have said is right. Is there a different approach to this? What I mean is very difficult to put into words. Can this seed be born without your doing anything about it? We are doing something about it: my relationship with the child, how I behave, what I do, how I am - sentimental or balanced - learning about myself and then helping the child - all that. We know that as probably the only way. I am asking if there is another way at all, in which this thing takes place without us doing something about it - yet it takes place.

克里希那穆提：先生，你说的都是对的。对此还有不同的方法吗？我的意思很难用语言表达。这颗种子可以在你不做任何事情的情况下生发吗？我们正在为此做一些事情：我与孩子的关系，我的行为方式，我的行为，我的情绪 —— 情绪化或平衡的 —— 学习我自己然后帮助孩子 —— 所有的这些。我们知道那可能是唯一的方法。我在问，是否还有另一种方式，在这种方式中，无需我们采取任何措施就发生 —— 它也能发生。

Q: Is there a way for a person to have a deep understanding of the significance of his life? Is it possible to see...

发问者：有没有一种办法让一个人深入地理解他生命的意义？能不能去看……

Q: Surely a relationship in any situation is only a secondary thing - the insight is by definition itself. So if we are talking about education being basically self-understanding and awareness, then a community, an environment, a relationship can indicate something; but the individual must see, that must be the spring, it comes from inside, not from outside.

发问者：当然，在任何情况下，关系都是次要的 —— “洞察”本身就说明了这点。因此，如果是我们正在谈论的教育，其基础在于自我理解和觉察，那么，这个社区、环境、关系可以表明某个东西；但作为个人，必须看，那必须是源泉，它来自于内部，而不在外面。

K: I understand all that. I am trying to find out something else. A student comes here, terribly conditioned, or the family is broken up - this and that. And as a teacher, I also come here conditioned. I am learning about myself, I am helping in our relationship, I am quiet and so on. I am unconditioning myself and him in our relationship. We know that, we have discussed it, we have seen it. Now I am asking myself: is there a way of doing something which will bring about the seed to be born naturally in the person?

克里希那穆提：我理解那一切。我试图找出别的某个东西。一个学生来到这里，经受了极大的扭曲，或者家庭破裂之类的事故。而作为一名老师，我也是受到某种局限才来到这里的。我在学习我自己，在我们的关系中，我提供帮助，我很安静等等。在我们的关系中，我正在给我自己和他解除限制。我们知道那些，我们已经讨论过，我们已经看到了它。现在，我问我自己： 有没有一种方式，能让种子自然地在这个人的身上生发？

Q: What you are trying to say is: is there a way when a person can't say it for you? - yet you show me the way. Do you mean that?

发问者：你想说的是：当一个人没有对你说起它时， —— 你却把它展示了出来。你是那个意思吗？

K: I think both are involved - a miracle is also necessary. Do you understand what I mean by miracle? I don't mean something like Lourdes.

克里希那穆提：我认为两种都要涉及 —— 一种奇迹也是必要的。你理解我说的奇迹是什么意思吗？我不是指卢尔德说的那样的东西。

Q: Are you saying: if the seed is there, just like the seed in the ground, and the conditions are right, then it will flower?

发问者：你是说：如果种子在那里，就像地里的种子一样，而条件合适，那么它就会开花吗？

K: I don't mean it that way. We know the child as well as the teacher comes here conditioned and has to learn to uncondition himself. This unconditioning means: the academic side, behaviour in detail as well as seeing the totality, all of that running together. This is what I am trying to convey to the student and in that I am learning how to live that way. That takes too long. So I say to myself, "A miracle must happen to change it instantly." May be both together are necessary - the miracle as well as the other. Can we produce both? I think we can. And that's why, as you said just now, if we are balanced, serious - which means not sentimental, not verbal, not ideational but factual - if we are dealing with it in that way, the miracle comes.

克里希那穆提：我不是那个意思。我们知道孩子和老师来到这里都是受到了局限，必须学习解除他自己的局限。这种解除意味着：学术知识方面、行为细节以及看到整体，所有这些都在一起流动。这就是我试图传达给学生的，我正在学习如何以这种方式生活。这需要太长的时间。所以，我对自己说，“一种奇迹必须发生，立即改变它。” 或者，这两种都是必要的 —— 这种奇迹以及另一种。我们可以同时提供吗？我认为我们可以。那就是为什么，正如你刚才所说的，如果我们是平衡的、严肃的 —— 不是情绪化的，不是言语上的，不是观念上的而是真实的 —— 如果我们以这种方式处理它，奇迹就会出现。

K: Yes, Sir. I think that is what is necessary here - a miracle in that sense. That can only happen if we are really tremendously serious and not anything but factual. Can we convey to the student the factual? - never the ideal, never the 'what should be' - the sentiment involved in what 'should' be. I think then the miracle comes about. If you tell me I am a fool and I see it as a fact - the miracle then takes place. We are all brought up on 'what should be,' on ideation, a sentimental way of living, and these boys and girls are also used to that; they face facts only for a little while and turn it into sentiment. Can we convey to them never to enter into that field at all?

克里希那穆提：是的，先生。我认为那就是这里所必需的 —— 从那个意义上说，就是一种奇迹。 只有当我们真正地非常地严肃，并且除了事实之外，把所有其余的一切都彻底清除的时候，它才会发生。 我们能向学生传达真实的事实吗？ —— 从来没有理想，从来没有‘应该是’ —— 这种情绪被包含在‘应该’这个词的里面。我想，那么奇迹就来临了。如果你告诉我，我是个傻瓜，而我如实地看它 —— 这种奇迹就发生了。 我们所有人从小就在‘应该是’，在观念，在一种多愁善感的生活方式中被抚养长大， 而这些男孩和女孩也习惯了那些；他们只面对事实一小会儿，接着就把它变成了情绪。我们能否传达给他们：“永远不要进入那个领域”？

Q: It means that as a community we must put all this aside altogether, because otherwise our relationship is one of constant interpretation of another's behaviour, rather than actual awareness and deep understanding.

发问者：它意味着作为一个社区，我们必须将一切情绪完全地搁置一旁，因为不这样做，我们的关系就变成了一种持续的解释 —— 持续地对别人的行为进行解释，而非真正地觉察和深刻的理解。