the beginning of learning 学习入门
K: I have just come back from India. I have noticed that things are getting very bad, the world is in a very peculiar, destructive state, it is degenerating people don't want to work, there are strikes. Apparently the war is over in Vietnam, but there is really no peace there. The communist world is also very disturbed; there is corruption everywhere, corruption in the sense not only of passing money under the table, but also in the sense that everybody is thinking selfishly, fragmentarily and thinking in circles. Also our artists can't go any further, they have come to the end of things. They have tried every kind of expression and they too have come to a point when they can't go any further. And poverty, as in India, of which you know absolutely nothing, is spreading, especially where there are severe droughts. With poverty goes degradation, every kind of violence goes on. Terrible things are happening in South America, in Brazil, and so on. I do not know if you are aware of all this: probably you are studying current history, current events, and one wonders what is going to be the outcome of it all. You are going to face all this when you leave this place.
克里希那穆提：我刚从印度回来。 我注意到事情变得非常糟糕， 世界处于一种非常奇怪的破坏性状态，它正在退化， 人们不想工作，罢工。 显然，在越南的战争已经结束，但那里真的没有和平。 共产主义世界也很不安；腐败无处不在， 腐败不只是指在桌子底下传递钱财， 而且还在于每个人都自私地、零散地思考和绕圈。 同时，我们的艺术家也不能再进一步了，他们已经走到了尽头。 他们尝试了各种表现形式，也已经到了无法再深入的地步。 而贫穷，如同印度的情形，你们对它一无所知，正在蔓延， 特别是在发生严重干旱的地方。 随着贫困恶化，各种暴力仍在继续。 可怕的事情正在南美、巴西等地发生。 我不知道您是否觉察到这一切： 您可能正在研究当前的历史、时事， 并且想知道这一切的结果会是什么。 当你离开这个地方，你将会面对这一切。
So what is the relationship between the community here and the vast community of the world? What is going to happen to you all? This isn't a rhetorical, or merely an intellectually stimulating question. When you leave this place, what will be your fate - if I can use that word - what is going to happen? Do you know how to work, both intellectually and physically, and therefore are able to stand on your own against this current that is carrying people away? - the current of commercialism and vast selfishness. Either you are going to be drawn into it unknowingly, or knowingly, and if you know how to work, how to study, how to use your mind, then you may fit into it. Are you going to be sucked into the current, or stand alone?
因此，这个的社区和世界上广大的社区有什么联系？ 你们都将会发生什么事？ 这不是一个浮夸的，或者仅仅是一个趣味性的智力问题。 当你离开这个地方，你的命运是什么 —— 如果我可以用这个词 —— 将会发生什么？ 您可知道，怎么在智力和体力上工作， 从而能够独自应对这种把人冲走的潮流 —— 这种商业主义和无边的自私的潮流？ 你要么不知不觉地，要么有意地被它拖下水， 如果你知道如何工作，如何学习，如何使用你的头脑，那么你可能会适应它。 你会被卷入潮流呢，还是独自站立？
So when one comes to Brockwood and sees the beauty of the winter, the bare trees, the lovely lines of the branches, the peace and quiet, the beauty of the place, one is rather shocked by the contrast of it all. And one wonders whether Brockwood offers you the opportunity - or it may and you do not utilize it - to really use your brain, your highest capacities, intellectual, physical and psychological. One wants to cry about the things that are happening, and here is a group, a community of fairly serious, fairly thoughtful people, where ideas and freedom and so-called discipline go together. Or is freedom a word that is misused and means doing what one wants to do?
所以，当我来到这里，看到冬天的美景， 光秃秃的树，可爱的枝桠，这个宁静、祥和、美丽的地方， 不经意间的对比，使我震撼了。 我想知道这里是否为您提供了这个机会 —— 或者它提供了，而您没有利用它 —— 真正地使用您的大脑，在理智、身体和心理层面上，发挥您最高的能力。 我想为这些正在发生的事情哭泣， 这里有一个团体，一个由相当严肃、相当有思想的人们组成的社区， 在这里，思想、自由与所谓的纪律同行。 或者自由是一个被滥用的词，意味着做自己想做的事？
What is it we are doing here together? Brockwood is a community, a so-called educational centre. I wonder if the word 'education' is the right word at all. When one uses that word as it is generally understood, it means learning out of books, storing up information and using it either selfishly or for a particular cause or a particular sect, and making oneself important in that sect or organization. Generally that is what is happening. Are we using our minds to their highest capacity, or are we just slowing down? Come on, I want to find out what you say, what you think. I'm afraid one has to be terribly serious, although you can laugh and play and have a good time; at the core one has to be terribly serious in this world - you are up against it.
在这里，我们一起在做什么？ 这是一个社区，一个所谓的教育中心。 我想知道“教育”这个词是否完全正确。 当一个人使用这个词，它的普遍含义， 意味着从书本中学习、储存信息， 并自私地、或者出于某种原因、或者为某个的派别而使用它， 并让自己在该派别或组织中发挥重要作用。 通常，这就是正在发生的事情。 我们是在最大限度地发挥我们的头脑，还是使它迟缓了？ 来吧，我想知道你会说什么，你是怎么想的。 恐怕一个人必须非常严肃，虽然你可以欢笑和玩耍，拥有美好的时光； 在核心问题上，一个人必须非常地严肃对待这个世界 —— 你要反抗它。
How will you respond later on? That depends on what you are doing now. Whether you have observed what is happening in the world, how it is fragmented, broken up, each one fighting the other commercially, intellectually and emotionally; the different types of war, economic, social, class warfare, and the ordinary war of butchery, and the worship of success. You must face this. Have you the capacity to see it and not enter into the game at all? I think Brockwood offers an opportunity for you to have this inward strength to stand against all this. Whether you use that opportunity is up to you, and of course up to the grown up people too. That is why I feel it is very important to know what it means to work; physically with your hands, psychologically with your mind - to work hard. Are you doing that here? Or is it all rather slack? Or do you say, "We are free to do what we want?"
以后你会如何回应？那取决于你正在做什么。 不管你是否观察到世界上正在发生的事情， 它是多么的支离破碎，在商业上、在智力上和情感上相互争斗； 不同类型的战争：经济、社会、阶级战争， 普通的屠杀战争，还有对成功的崇拜。你必须面对这些。 你有能力看到它而完全地不参与这场游戏吗？ 我认为这里为你提供了一个机会，让你拥有这种内在的力量来对抗这一切。 你是否利用这个机会取决于你自己，当然也取决于这里的成年人。 这就是为什么我觉得知道“工作意味着什么”，这一点非常重要； 在身体上，用你的手；在心理上，用你的头脑 —— 艰苦地工作。在这里，你正在做吗？还是这一切都相当地松懈？ 或者你说，“我们做什么是我们的自由。”
Q: What work is there to do besides just seeing all the problems? I mean that is the work, isn't it?
发问者：除了看所有的问题，还有什么工作要做？ 我的意思是这就是工作，它不是吗？
K: But how do you see the problems? Everybody who is at all alive, a little watchful, sees these problems.
克里希那穆提：但是，你怎么看这些问题？ 每一个活人，只要稍微警觉一些，都会看到这些问题。
Q: Well, you have to see how you react, or how you act.
发问者：嗯，你必须看你怎么反应，或者你如何行动。
K: How do you react? Do you see all this as though it were 'out there', or do you see it in relationship?
克里希那穆提：你是怎么反应的？ 你是把这一切看作是“在外面的”，还是在关系之中看它？
Q: I see it as an expression. I see it like art. All the problems are expressions.
发问者：我看到它是一种表现。 我把它看成艺术。所有的问题都是各种表现。
K: Do you consider all that is part of you? Or don't you belong to it? Are you an outsider looking in? Or are you looking without being an outsider? You observe it all: the worship of success, the brutality, the intellectual worship of things, the storing of knowledge. Are you all that, or are you different from all that?
克里希那穆提：你认为所有那一切都是你的一部分吗？或者，你不属于它？ 你是局外人吗？还是你不是作为一个局外人在观察？ 你观察这一切：对成功的崇拜、对事物的残暴、对智力的崇拜、知识的累积。 你就是那一切，还是你与那一切是不同的？
Q: I don't feel either way.
发问者：我没有任何感觉。
K: All that is the result of our greed, our ambition, competitiveness, worship of success, asserting oneself, thoughtlessness - are you free of all that?
克里希那穆提：那一切就是出于 我们的贪婪、野心、竞争、对成功的崇拜、坚持自我、粗心 —— 你摆脱了那一切吗？
Q: Maybe we are not free of it, but we are not part of it right now.
发问者：也许我们没有摆脱它，但我们现在不是它的一部分。
K: You may be free of it. But if you are not free of it, are you aware that you are part of it?
克里希那穆提：你可能摆脱了它。 但如果你没有摆脱它，你是否觉察到你就是它的一部分？
Q: Every day you might say, "I am not a part of this smoking, this drinking" - but it can happen to you any day. Even when you are in your room and you are quiet inside, you still can be selfish....
发问者：每天你可能会说，“我不是抽烟、喝酒的一部分” —— 但它可能在任何一天发生在你身上。 即使你在你的房间里，你里面很安静，你仍然能够自私……
K: What I mean is: do you look at all this as something different from you, or are you part of it? There may be moments when you are not - you may not be when you are thinking quietly - but as long as one is selfish, ambitious, greedy, possessive, one is that.
克里希那穆提：我的意思是： 你看到的这一切与你不同吗，或者，你是其中的一部分？ 可能有的时候你不是 —— 当你安静地思考时，你可能不是 —— 但只要一个人是自私的、野心的、贪婪的、占有欲的，一个人就是其中的一部分。
Q: At Brockwood we may feel we are not part of it, or we somehow fool ourselves that we are not part of it.
发问者：在这个学校，我们可能觉得我们不是它的一部分， 或者，我们以某种方式愚蠢地认为我们不是它的一部分。
K: I don't know, I am asking you. You may be fooling yourself thinking, "We are different, we are young, therefore it is not yet our job to be concerned with it." If you don't lay the foundation now, when you are young, I don't see how you are going to lay it later. In about ten years' time you will all be married and have children.
克里希那穆提：我不知道，我在问你。 您可能会愚蠢你自己：“我们是不同的，我们还年轻， 因此，去考虑它，还不是我们的工作。” 现在，趁你年轻的时候不打下这个基础，我看你以后怎么办？ 大约十年后，你们都会结婚生子。
Q: There is some tendency to discriminate between what is nasty and what is necessary. To get down to practical things we have to associate ourselves, or be involved with everything that is here. A simple example is work in the garden - it is nice to work out there when it is sunny and warm...
发问者：存在某种倾向：即区分“什么是讨厌的”和“什么是必要的”。 为了深入实际情况，我们必须团结，或者参与到这里的一切事情。 一个简单的例子：在花园里工作 —— 在阳光明媚和温暖的时候，在那里工作是令人愉快的……
K: Yes, but it is awful on a day like this. Look, what are you all going to do? What is your future? What do you want to do? Or haven't you thought about it? If you haven't thought about it, just leave it alone, may be you are too young to think about it. But if you do think about it, what is going to happen to you?
克里希那穆提：是的，但在这样的天气情况下，就挺讨厌。 看，你们都打算怎么办？你们的未来是什么？你们想做什么？ 或者你们没有想过？如果你没有想过它，就别管它， 可能你太小，还不必考虑它。 但如果你确实考虑过，你将会发生什么？
Q: I don't quite understand what you mean. Is it what you can do, or what you think you want to do?
发问者：我不太理解你的意思。 是你能做什么，还是你认为你想做什么？
K: Both. Can you separate what you can do from what you want to do? What is it you want to do?
克里希那穆提：两者都有。你能把“你能做什么”和“你想做什么”分开吗？你想做什么？
Q: I could tell you what I don't want to do. I don't want to be part of what I see.
发问者：我会告诉你，我不想做什么。 我不想成为我所见的一部分。
K: I may not want to be part of all this mess, but I have to do something. I can't just say, "I don't want to be that" and stay in my room. I have to eat, I have to clothe myself, I have to have shelter.
克里希那穆提：我可能不想成为这一切混乱的一部分，但我必须做点什么。 我不能只是说，“我不想成为那样”，然后呆在我的房间里。 我必须吃饭，我必须穿衣，我必须有住所。
Q: You can work. You can leave here and just get a job.
发问者：你能够工作。你可以离开这里去找份工作。
K: What is it the mind wants to do in this world?
克里希那穆提：这颗头脑想在这个世界上做什么？
Q: You can get a job.
发问者：你可以找到一份工作。
K: A job isn't the point. You can get a job if you are lucky enough, or you can live on somebody else. I met a man who had hitch-hiked from New York and worked his way across the sea and hitch-hiked from Paris to Delhi. You understand what that means? He was a Brahmin and a strict vegetarian, therefore all through the voyage he lived on cucumbers, a few fruits, an occasional orange for the three weeks. He said, "I want to go to India, and when I get there I am going to spend my life as a really religious man" - whatever that may mean. Now what is going to happen to you? - I am really interested.
克里希那穆提：工作不是这个重点。 如果你足够幸运，你可以找到一份工作，或者你可以依靠别人生活。 我遇到了一个人，他从纽约搭便车， 漂洋过海，从巴黎搭便车到德里。你明白这是什么意思吗？ 他是一个婆罗门，而且是一个严格的素食主义者， 因此在整个航程中，他在那三个星期里，以黄瓜、一些水果和一个橙子为食。 他说：“我想去印度，当我到达那里时，我将作为一个真正的宗教人度过我的一生” —— 不管这意味着什么。现在你会发生什么事情？—— 我真的很感兴趣。
Q: It seems as though the more I look at things the less I want to do.
发问者：似乎我看到的东西越多，我想做的事情就越少。
K: The less you want to do anything.
克里希那穆提：你越来越不想做任何事情。
Q: In a sense, yes. Not anything to do with business, most things are involved in this.
发问者：在某种意义上说，是的。 商业上的任何事情都不想做，大部分事情都涉及到这个。
K: I know, but nonetheless what will you do? You can't just sit back and say, "I won't do anything". You have got to eat, you have got to dress yourself and have got to pay to sleep somewhere.
克里希那穆提：我知道，但你会怎么做？你不能只是坐下来，说， “我不会做任何事情”。 你必须吃饭，你必须穿衣，必须付钱才能睡在某个地方。
Q: There are so few things you can do.
发问者：你能做的事情太少了。
K: Are there so few things? Do you want to hitch-hike to India? No, don't do it! Are there so few things to do in life without getting involved in all this mess?
克里希那穆提：有这么少吗？你想搭便车去印度吗？不，不要这样做！ 在生命中，要不卷入这些所有的混乱，真的只有很少的事情可做吗？
Q: I would rather look at everything you can do, but everything seems to be contaminated by this mess.
发问者：我宁愿看看你能做的一切， 但这一切似乎都被这种混乱污染了。
K: So that means that everything you do will be contaminated - is that it?
克里希那穆提：因此，那意味着你所做的一切都会被污染 —— 是吗？
Q: Well, you have to deal with it.
发问者：嗯，你必须处理它。
K: So how will you deal with it? You have to pay taxes and so on. Will you join a monastery - many people are doing that - but will you like that kind of living? Or is that question rather irrelevant to people who are still very young? But you are old enough to know that unless you lay a foundation now, and see how you observe - not analytically - what your reactions are, and why those reactions exist, unless you do that, it will be very difficult to face this.
克里希那穆提：因此，你会怎么处理？你必须缴税等等。 你会加入修道院吗 —— 很多人都在那么做 —— 但你会喜欢那种生活吗？ 或者这个问题对还很年轻的人来说是无关紧要的吗？ 但是你已经足够大了，除非你现在打下基础，看你怎么观察 —— 不是分析 —— 你的反应是什么，为什么有这些反应存在， 除非你那么做，否则很难面对这些。
Q: I wonder whether one can survive when one is put in a place where everybody is fighting with another.
发问者：我在想一个人是否能够存活下来， 当他被放到一个每个人都在与另一个人战斗的地方的时候。
K: Yes, put yourself in that position. Have you thought about violence? What is involved in violence, how does it arise, what is the structure of violence? There is physical violence and there is the violence of obedience - are you obeying and therefore being violent? Do you understand what I mean? When I obey you and suppress what I think, that suppression will burst out one day. So there is physical violence and violence brought about through obedience, the violence of competitiveness, of conformity. When I conform to a pattern I am violent - you see the connection? When I live a life of fragmentation - that is, when I think one thing and say another, do another - that is fragmentation and that also breeds violence. I may be very quiet, gentle, do all the work I am asked to do, but I flare up: which indicates there has been suppression in me. So violence is not just physical violence, it is a very complex question. And if you haven't thought about it, when you are faced with violence you will react most unintelligently.
克里希那穆提：是的，把你自己放在那个位置。 你考虑过暴力吗？在暴力中，涉及到什么内容？ 它是如何产生的，暴力的结构是什么？ 有身体上的暴力，也有服从的暴力 —— 你是否在服从，并因此变得暴力？ 你理解我的意思吗？ 当我服从你，并压抑我的想法时，这种压抑在某一天会爆发。 因此，存在身体上的暴力和由于服从而产生的暴力， 竞争的暴力，服从的暴力。 当我服从某种模式的时候，我就会变得暴力 —— 你看到其中的关联了吗？ 当我过着碎片化的生活 —— 也就是说，当我想一套，说另一套，做第三套 —— 那就是碎片，还在滋生暴力。 我可能很安静，很温柔，做着我被要求做的所有工作， 但我突然爆发：这表明我受到了压抑。 所以，暴力不只是身体上的暴力，它是一个非常复杂的问题。 如果你没有想过它，当你面对暴力的时候，你会做出最不明智的反应。
Q: Can one live in this world without any violence at all?
发问者：一个人可以在没有任何暴力的情况下生活在这个世界上吗？
K: Find out, work. Find out how to live a life in which there is no violence.
克里希那穆提：找出来，工作。找到如何过一种没有暴力的生活。
Q: A minute ago you spoke about suppression. Maybe here, if we discuss things, it can come out and not be suppressed. I don't know if that is a form of suppression.
发问者：一分钟前你谈到压抑。 或许在这里，如果我们讨论这些，就可以宣泄出来，不再受压抑。 我不知道这是不是一种压抑。
K: Let us take it one by one. You know what physical violence is, getting angry, hitting each other, or somebody is bullying you verbally. That is one kind of violence.
克里希那穆提：让我们一步一步来。 你知道什么是身体上的暴力：生气，打架，或者在言语上欺负你。 那就是一种暴力。
Obedience is violence, isn't it? Or would you say that is not violence? I obey when I keep to the left side of the road - is that violence?
服从是暴力，难道它不是吗？或者，你会说它不是暴力吗？ 当我保持在公路左侧，我服从 —— 这是暴力吗？(英国的交通规则是：靠左侧行驶)
Q: No. That is intelligence, if you didn't you would get run over.
发问者：不。那是智慧，如果你不这样做，你会被碾压。
K: Yes, which means what?
克里希那穆提：是的，这意味着什么？
Q: It is a fact.
发问者：它是一个事实。
K: So there are facts and what else? Go on.
克里希那穆提：所以它是事实，还有什么？继续。
Q: And things that we produce in our head that don't really exist.
发问者：那些我们在头脑中产生，却实际上并不存在的东西。
K: I obey the law which says keep to the right in Europe and to the left in England. Is that violence? Obviously not. If you obey somebody who you think is superior in knowledge, is that violence? I teach you mathematics and you will discuss it with me, but in that there is some sort of imitation, conformity and obedience, isn't there? Is that violence? Society says you must go and kill the Muslims or the Communists - is that violence?
克里希那穆提：我服从在欧洲靠右行驶、在英国靠左行驶的法律。 那是暴力吗？显然不是。 如果你服从某个你认为知识渊博的人，那是暴力吗？ 我教你数学，你和我讨论， 其中也存在某种模仿、顺从和服从，不是吗？那是暴力吗？ 社会说你必须去杀死穆斯林或共产党人 —— 那是暴力吗？
Q: Yes.
发问者：是的。
K: Why? There is not only physical violence involved in it, but also so-called love of country, nationalism, a division of yourself as an Englishman, a German, a Russian, or a Muslim - which is a form of violence. So how will you have the insight to see where obedience is not violence and where it is? Do you see the difference? I conform, I imitate when I drive on the left. I put on trousers in this country, but when I go to India I put on Indian dress - is that a kind of conformity? And inwardly I conform to being a Hindu, to my tradition, to my beliefs - isn't that violence? So where is the line between violence and seeing for oneself where freedom is order? All violence is disorder. Don't misunderstand what I am saying and afterwards say, "I won't conform" and go and do something silly. The whole world is involved in violence, in disorder of different categories. In the business world there is tremendous disorder, although there are marvellous companies run most efficiently; but they fight each other - there is disorder.
克里希那穆提：为什么？其中不仅涉及身体上的暴力， 还涉及所谓的爱国、民族主义、 将自己划分为英国人、德国人、俄罗斯人或穆斯林 —— 也就是另一种类型的暴力。 那么，您将如何洞察哪些服从不是暴力，以及哪里是暴力？ 你看得到差别吗？我服从，当我在左侧开车时我会模仿。 我在这个国家穿裤子，但当我去印度时我穿印度衣服 —— 那是一种服从吗？ 在内心，我服从印度教徒的身份，顺从我的传统，服从我的信仰 —— 那难道不是暴力吗？ 因此，暴力的界限在哪里，当一个人亲眼看到自由即秩序的时候？ 所有的暴力都是无序的。不要误解我的话，然后说： “我不会服从”，然后去做某些愚蠢的事情。 整个世界都卷进了暴力之中，处于不同类别的失序之中。 在商业世界中，虽然有最有效率的公司，但也存在巨大的失序； 他们也互相争斗 —— 产生了失序。
So I see disorder, and that freedom from disorder is order - right? There has to be the intelligence or insight to see that any movement towards disorder is violence. If I put on trousers in this country, is that conformity? To me it is not. But it is conformity to say, "I am a Hindu, it is my tradition, my belief, my custom." So I won't conform, because conformity there leads to disorder. So I wipe out Hinduism from my blood. That is real freedom. What does it mean to obey? "You should do this", "Keep to the left", "Go to church", or "You are an Englishman". When you are aware of the factors of disorder, then you are free because there is order in your life.
因此，我观看失序，解散失序就是秩序 —— 对吗？ 必须具备智慧或洞察力，看到任何走向失序的运动都是暴力。 如果我在这个国家穿裤子，那是服从吗？对我来说，它不是。 但是，说“我是印度教徒，它是我的传统、我的信仰、我的习俗”，就是服从。 所以我不会服从，因为服从会导致失序。 所以，我从我的血脉中清除了印度教。那是真正的自由。 服从是什么意思？ “你应该这样做”、“靠左走”、“去教堂”或“你是英国人”。 当你觉察到失序的因素时，那么你就自由了，因为在你的生命中，有了秩序.
This is real education: to live a life of tremendous order in which obedience is understood, in which it is seen where conformity is necessary and where it is totally unnecessary, and to see when you are imitating.
这是真正的教育：过一种非常有秩序的生活 在这种生活中，服从是被理解的， 它看到了服从的必要性和非必要的， 也看到了什么时候应该模仿，什么时候不应该去模仿。
Q: Would you say that when you are imitating inwardly then you have conflict? For instance, when you learn a language and you do it because you feel you have to do it.
发问者：当你在内心模仿的时候，你会有冲突吗？ 例如，当你学习一门语言，你这样做，是因为你觉得你必须这样做。
K: There is nothing you have to do. If you are forced by circumstances, that is violence. To belong to a sect, to a group, to a country, that is really violence because it separates people. I see this happening - am I doing this? To find out if I am doing it, that is real work, that is what I mean by work, not merely gardening, cooking and studying; that is part of it, but the real work is to see, to understand whether you live in disorder. You may have tremendous order outwardly, put on clean clothes, wash and be punctual at all meals, but the real order is inside. And because you are in order you will do things in an orderly way. If you say, "I will garden", you will garden whether it is foul or fair weather. Oh, you don't work - I have done all these things!
克里希那穆提：不存在你必须去做的事情。 如果你被环境强迫，那就是暴力。 属于一个教派、一个组织、一个国家，那真的是暴力，因为它把人们分开了。 我看到这种情形正在发生 —— 我在这样做吗？ 发现我是否在这么做，那就是真正的工作，那就是我所说的工作， 而不仅仅是园艺、烹饪和学习；那是其中的一部分， 但真正的工作是“看”，是理解您是否活在失序中。 你可能外面秩序井然，穿上干净的衣服，洗漱，准时吃饭， 但真正的秩序在里面。因为你有秩序，你才会有条不紊地做事。 如果你说，“我会打理花园”，那么无论是恶劣的天气还是晴朗的天气，你都会去打理。 哦，你不用打理 —— 我已经完成了所有这些事情！
Q: We learn it in doing it. We are not suggesting that we retire to our rooms and find out.
发问者：我们在做事的时候学习它。 我们并没有提议：回我们的房间去找它。
K: Good God, no! You learn while you are doing. The doing is the learning.
克里希那穆提：天哪，不！你边做边学。做就是学习。
Q: To find out whether we are cooperating or conforming: if we are cooperating, then it really doesn't lead to contradictions.
发问者：找出我们是合作还是服从： 如果我们合作，那么它真的不会导致矛盾。
K: Either you have to cooperate because you are compelled, or violent circumstances compel you. Or you want to cooperate, you love to cooperate, you want to do things together. That is order; I can't live by myself in my room.
克里希那穆提：要么你受到暴力或环境的压力而被迫合作。 要么你想合作，你喜欢合作，你想一起做事。 那就是秩序；我不能独自生活在我的房间里。
Q: And there is no contradiction there at all?
发问者： 那里根本没有矛盾吗？
K: Obviously not. But if you compel me, or circumstances compel me, or I feel that if I don't I will be looked down upon, that is violence. But not if I see we must work together, that life is working together, that I can't live by myself. After all, I find out whether I am violent in doing things with you - how I play, how I talk, how I listen to you. In relationship I find out. Otherwise I can't find out, I can't sit in my room and try to find out whether I am violent. I can imagine I'm not violent, but the real test, the real action comes in relationship, to see if I am like that. That's real work. And if you do that you have tremendous energy because your life is in order.
克里希那穆提：显然没有。 但是如果你强迫我，或者环境强迫我， 或者我觉得如果我不这样做，我会被人看不起，那就是暴力。 但反过来，如果我看出我们必须一起工作，生活就是一起工作，我不能独自生活。 毕竟，我与你一起工作的时候，我才能发现自己是否暴力 —— 我是怎样玩耍的、我是怎么说话的、我怎么去听你的。 在相互的接触过程中，才有发现。否则我发现不了， 我不能坐在我的房间里试图发现我是否暴力。 我可以想象我没有暴力，但真正的考验，真正的行为来自于相互的关系， 看“我是不是这样的人？”。那是真正的工作。 如果你那么做，你就会拥有巨大的能量，因为你的生活有秩序。