the beginning of learning 学习入门
K: The other day we were talking about sanity and mediocrity, what those words mean. We were asking whether living in this place as a community we are mediocre. And we also asked whether we are sane totally, that is bodily, mentally, emotionally. Are we balanced and healthy? All that is implied in the words sane, whole. Are we educating each other to be mediocre, to be slightly insane, slightly off balance?
克里希那穆提：前些天，我们在谈论理智和平庸， 那些词是什么意思。我们问：作为生活在这个地方的一个团体，我们是平庸的吗？ 我们还问到：在身体、精神、情感方面，我们是否完全地清醒？是否平衡和健康？ 所有这一切都隐含在“理智”、“整体”这两个词中。 在相互的教育中，我们是不是平庸的，有些轻微地疯狂和失衡？
The world is quite insane, unhealthy, corrupt. Are we bringing about that same imbalance, insanity and corruption in our education here? This is a very serious question. Can we find out the truth of it? - not what we think we should be in terms of sanity, but actually discover for ourselves if we are educating each other to be really sane and not mediocre.
这个世界非常疯狂、不健康、腐败。 在这里的教育中，我们是否正带来了那种同样的失衡、疯狂和腐败？ 这是一个非常严肃的问题。我们能找出它的真理吗？ —— 不是我们认为我们在理智方面应该是什么， 而是真实地发现，在我们的相互教育中，我们是不是真正的理智而非平庸。
Q: Many of us will have a job to which we have to go every day, many people will get married and have children - those are things that are going to happen.
发问者：我们中的许多人每天都会有一份工作， 许多人会结婚生子 —— 那些都是在持续发生的事。
K: What is your place in this world as a human being who is supposed to be educated, who has got to earn a livelihood, where you may, or may not marry, have the responsibility of children, a house and mortgage and may be trapped in that for the rest of your life?
克里希那穆提：作为一个人类，你在这个世界上的位置是什么？ 一个人接受了所谓的教育，获得一种谋生技能， 你可能会，也可能不会结婚，拥有抚养孩子的责任， 拥有房子和抵押贷款，然后可能使你的余生都被困在那里吗？
Q: Perhaps we are hoping somebody will look after us.
发问者：也许我们希望某个人会照顾我们。
K: That means you must be capable of doing something. You can't just say, "Please look after me" - nobody is going to do it. Don't be depressed by it. Just look at it, be familiar with it, know all the tricks people are playing on each other. The politicians will never bring the world together, on the contrary; there may be no actual war but there is an economic war going on. If you are a scientist you are a slave to the government. All governments are more or less corrupt, some more, some less, but all are corrupt. So look at all this without getting depressed and saying, "What am I going to do, how am I going to face this, I haven't the capacity?" You will have the capacity; when you know how to look you will have tremendous capacity.
克里希那穆提：那意味着你必须有能力做某事。 你不能只是说，“请照顾我” —— 没有人会去做它。 不要为此而沮丧。 只是看它，熟悉它，了解人们互相玩弄的所有把戏。 政客们永远不会把世界团结起来，恰恰相反。 可能没有真正的战争，但有一场经济战正在进行。 如果你是科学家，你就是政府的奴隶。 所有政府都或多或少地腐败，有的多一些，有的少一些，但都是腐败的。 所以看着这一切，不要沮丧，不要说， “我该怎么办，我将如何面对，我难道没有这种能力吗？” 你将有这种能力；当你知道如何去看，你将拥有无穷的能力。
So what is your place in all this? If you see the whole, then you can ask that question, but if you merely say to yourself, "What am I going to do?", without seeing the whole, then you are caught, then there is no answer to it.
那么，在这一切中，你的位置是什么？ 如果你看这个整体，那么你能够问这个问题，但是如果你只是对你自己说： “我要做什么？”，而没看这个整体，那么你就被困住了，也就无法回答它了。
Q: Surely the first thing is for us to discuss these things openly. But I think people are a little frightened to discuss freely. Perhaps the thing they really care about will be threatened.
发问者：当然，第一件事是让我们公开讨论这些事情。 但我认为人们有点害怕自由地讨论。 或许他们真正关心的东西会受到威胁。
K: Are you frightened?
克里希那穆提：你害怕吗？
Q: If I say what I want is a fast car, then perhaps somebody will question that.
发问者：如果我说，我想要一辆快车，那么也许有人会质疑。
K: It must be questioned. I get letters questioning me all the time; I have been challenged since my childhood.
克里希那穆提：它必须质疑。我总是收到质疑我的信件； 我从小就受到挑战。
Q: Sir, there is something which always bothers me when these things are discussed. It is said we live in a highly mechanised industrial society and if some of us can opt out of it, it is because there are other people who do go to the office and work and become mechanical.
发问者：先生，当讨论这些事情时，总有一些事情困扰着我。 据说，我们生活在一个高度机械化的工业社会， 如果我们中的一些人可以选择退出， 那是因为还有其他人会去办公室工作并变得机械化。
K: Of course.
克里希那穆提：当然。
Q: We couldn't opt out of it without those people fulfilling their mechanised, miserable existence.
发问者：如果那些人没有完成他们机械化的、悲惨的存在，我们就不能选择退出。
K: No. How to live in this world without belonging to it, that is the question. How to live in this insanity and yet be sane?
克里希那穆提：不。如何在不属于这个世界的情况下生活，那才是问题所在。 如何生活在这疯狂的世界中，却又保持理智？
Q: Are you saying that the man who goes to the office and leads an apparently mechanical life could do all that and yet be a different sort of human being? In other words, it isn't necessarily the system...
发问者：你是说，去办公室过着看似机械化的生活的人 可以胜任这一切，却又是不同类型的人？ 换句话说，它不必属于这个系统……
K: This system, whatever it is, is making the mind mechanical.
克里希那穆提：这个系统，不管它是什么，都让头脑变得机械化。
Q: But does it have to make the mind mechanical?
发问者：但它是不是必定导致这颗头脑机械化？
K: It is happening.
克里希那穆提：它正在发生。
Q: All young people are faced with growing up, they see they may have to take a job which entails that. Can there be another response to it?
发问者：在成长中，所有的年轻人都会面临这个社会， 他们看到：他们可能必须接受这样一份工作。对此，能有另一种回应吗？
K: My question is: how to live in this insane world sanely. Though I may have to go to an office and earn a livelihood, there must be a different heart, a different mind. Is this different mind, this different heart happening here in this place? Or are we just treading the mill and getting thrown out into this monstrous world?
克里希那穆提：我的问题是：如何理智地生活在这个疯狂的世界中。 虽然我可能不得不去办公室谋生， 但必须有不同的心灵，一颗不同的头脑。 这种不同的头脑，不同的心灵能在这种地方发生吗？ 或者，我们只是踏入这个工厂，被扔进这个野兽般的世界中？
Q: (1) There is no need any more to have a nine-to-five, six day a week job because of automation. What is happening is that this age is now giving us the extra time to attend to our other side.
发问者1：由于自动化，不再需要每周朝九晚五，六天的工作。 正在发生的事情是，这个时代现在给了我们额外的时间来照料我们的另一面。
Q: (2) But we were saying we want leisure and we don't know how to use leisure.
发问者2：但我们说我们想要休闲，但我们不知道如何使用休闲。
Q: (3) There is nothing wrong, surely, in earning a livelihood?
发问者3：当然了，谋生是没有错的吧？
K: I never said it's wrong to earn a livelihood; one has to earn a livelihood. I earn my livelihood by talking to people in many places. I have been doing it for fifty years and I am doing what I love to do. What I am doing is really what I think is right, is true; it is the way of living for me - not imposed on me by somebody - and that is my way of earning a livelihood.
克里希那穆提：我从未说过谋生是错误的； 一个人必须谋生。我通过与许多地方的人谈话来谋生。 我已经这样做了五十年，我正在做我喜欢做的事情。 我所做的事情确实是我认为正确的和真实的； 它是我的生活方式 —— 不是别人强加给我的 —— 那就是我的谋生方式。
Q: I just want to say that you are able to do that because there are people who fly the aeroplanes.
发问者：我只想说，你能够做到这一点，是因为有人驾驶飞机。
K: Of course, I know that: without them I couldn't travel. But if there were no aeroplanes I would remain in one place, in the village where I was born and I would still be doing the same thing there.
克里希那穆提：当然，我知道那一点：没有它们我就无法旅行。 但如果没有飞机，我会留在一个地方， 在我出生的村庄，我仍然会在那里做同样的事情。
Q: Yes, but in this highly mechanised society, where profit is the motive, this is the way things are organized.
发问者：是的，但在这个高度机械化的社会， 利润是动机，这就是事物的组织方式。
K: No, other people do the dirty work and I do the clean work.
克里希那穆提：不，别人做丑陋的工作，我做干净的工作。
Q: So one tries to do the clean work?
发问者：所以，一个人去尝试做干净的工作？
K: It comes to that.
克里希那穆提：就是如此。
Q: But apart from earning a living, we have to begin to realize that to live sanely and yet earn a living in this world, there has to be an inner revolution.
发问者：但是除了谋生之外， 我们必须开始就意识到： 要在这个世界上理智地生活并谋生，必须有一场内在的革命。
K: I am putting the same question differently. How am I to live sanely in this world which is insane? It doesn't mean I am not going to earn a livelihood, that I am not going to marry, that I am not going to take responsibilities. To live in this insane world sanely, I must reject that world and a revolution in me must come about so that I become sane and operate sanely. That's my whole point.
克里希那穆提：我以不同的方式提出了这个问题。 在这个疯狂的世界里，我该如何理智地生活？ 它并不意味着我不会谋生，我不会结婚，我不会承担责任。 为了理智地生活在这个疯狂的世界，我必须拒绝那个世界， 我必须发生一场革命，这样，我才能变得理智并理智地操作。 那就是我的全部观点。
Q: Because I've been brought up insanely I have to question everything.
发问者：因为我被不理智地抚养长大，所以我必须质疑一切。
K: That's what education is. You have been sent here, or you came here, contaminated by an insane world. Don't fool yourself, you have been conditioned by that insane world, shaped by past generations - including your parents - and you come here and you have to uncondition yourself, you have to undergo a tremendous change. Does that change take place? Or are we just saying: "Well, we are doing a bit of good work here and there, day after day," and by the time you leave in two or four years time, off you go with a little patchwork done?
克里希那穆提：那就是教育的意思。 你被送到这里，或者你来到这里，被一个不理智的世界所污染。 不要欺骗你自己，你已经被那个疯狂的世界，被过去的几代人所局限 —— 包括你的父母 —— 你来到这里，你必须解除你自己的局限， 你必须经历一场巨大的变化。这种变化会发生吗？ 或者我们只是说：“好吧，我们会日复一日地在这里和那里做着一些不错的工作”， 两年或四年后，当你要离开的时候，你仅仅做了些零星的事情吗？
Q: There seems to be a conflict - between what we want to do, what we desire to do, and what is necessary.
发问者：这里似乎存在一种冲突 —— 在我们想要做什么，和需要做什么之间。
K: What is it you desire to do? I want to be an engineer because I see it brings in a great deal of money, or this or that. Can I rely on that desire? Can I rely on my instincts which have been so twisted? Can I rely on my thoughts? What have I to rely on? So education is to create an intelligence which is not mere instinct or desire or some petty demand, but an intelligence that will function in this world.
克里希那穆提：你想要做什么？ 我想成为一名工程师，因为我看到它带来了很多钱，或者这个或那个。 我可以依靠那个欲望吗？我可以依靠我如此扭曲的直觉吗？ 我可以依靠我的思想吗？我有什么可依靠的？ 因此，教育是要创造一种智慧，它不只是本能、欲望或一些碎小的要求， 而是一种能在这个世界上运用的智慧。
Is our education at Brockwood helping you to be intelligent? I mean by that word: to be very sensitive, not to your own desires, to your own demands, but to be sensitive to the world, to what is going on in the world. Surely education is not merely to give you knowledge, but also to give you the capacity to look at the world objectively, to see what is happening - the wars, the destruction, the violence, the brutality. The function of education is to find out how to live differently, not merely to pass exams, to get a degree, become qualified in certain ways. It is to help you to face the world in a totally different, intelligent way, knowing you have to earn a livelihood, knowing all the responsibilities, the miseries of it all. My question is: is this being done here? Is the educator getting educated as well as the student?
在这里，我们的教育是否有助于您变得有智慧？ 我用这个词的意思是指：变得非常敏感，不是对你的欲望、你的要求， 而是对这个世界、对世界上正在发生的事情敏感。 当然，教育不只是给你知识， 还要给你客观地去看这个世界的能力， 看正在发生的事情 —— 战争、破坏、暴力、野蛮。 教育的职能是发现如何以一种不同的方式去生活， 而不只是通过考试、获得学位、通过某种方式获得资格证书。 它是帮助你以一种完全不同的、智慧的方式来面对这个世界， 当你知晓了你自己必须谋生，知晓了所有的责任、所有的悲伤。 我问：这种教育会在这里完成吗？教育工作者和学生都得到了教育吗？
Q: Your question is also my question, I ask whether this education is happening here.
发问者：你的问题也是我的问题，我问，这种教育是否正在这里发生。
K: You are asking whether such education is taking place here at Brockwood to help you to become so intelligent, so aware that you can meet this insanity? If not, whose fault is it?
克里希那穆提：你是在问，这样的教育是否正在发生？ 在帮助你变得非常智慧，非常有觉察力，使你能应对这种疯狂的世界？ 如果没有发生，那是谁的错？
Q: What is the basis which makes this education possible?
发问者：使这种教育成为可能的基础是什么？
K: Look, why are you being educated?
克里希那穆提：看，你为什么要接受教育？
Q: I really don't know.
发问者：我真地不知道。
K: Therefore you have to find out what education means, mustn't you? What is education? Giving you information, knowledge about various subjects and so on, a good academic training? That has to be, hasn't it? Millions of people are being turned out by the universities and colleges.
克里希那穆提：因此，你必须弄清楚教育意味着什么，不是吗？ 什么是教育？为您提供有关各种学科的信息、知识等，是一种良好的学术培训吗？ 那是一定的，它不是吗？数以百万计的人被大学和学院淘汰。
Q: They give you the tools to live with.
发问者：它们给了你生活的工具。
K: But what are the hands that are going to use them? They are the same hands that have produced this world, the wars and all the rest of it.
克里希那穆提：但是，要使用它们的那双手是什么？ 他们是创造这个世界、这些战争和所有其它东西的同一双手。
Q: Which means the tools are there but if there is no inner, psychological revolution you will use those tools in the same old way and keep the rottenness going. That's what my question is about.
发问者：这意味着工具在那里，但如果没有内在的、心理的革命， 你会以同样的旧方式使用这些工具，并使得腐败延续。 那就是我的问题。
K: If this revolution does not take place here, then why doesn't it? And if it does, is it actually affecting the mind, or is it still an idea and not an actuality, like having to eat three meals a day. That is an actuality, somebody has to cook, that's not an idea.
克里希那穆提：如果这场革命没有在这里发生，那它为什么没有发生？ 如果发生了，它是否真的在影响这颗头脑， 或者，它只是一个想法而不是现实，就像一天必须吃三顿饭一样。 那是一个现实，有人必须做饭，那不是一个想法。
So I am asking you, is this kind of education we are talking about taking place here? And if it is, let us find out how to vitalise it, give life to it. If it is not, let's find out why.
因此我问你，我们正在谈论的这种教育，在这里发生着吗？ 如果它是，让我们找出怎么激发它的活力，赋予它生命。 如果不是，让我们找出为什么。
Q: It doesn't seem to be happening in the whole school.
发问者：它似乎并没有发生在这整个学校里。
K: Why not? It may be happening with a few individuals here and there - why isn't it happening with all of us?
克里希那穆提：为什么没有？它可能会发生在某些人身上 —— 为什么它没有发生在我们所有人的身上？
Q: I feel it's like a seed which wants to germinate but the top soil is too heavy.
发问者：我觉得它就像一粒想要发芽的种子，但表层的土壤太重了。
K: Have you seen grass growing through cement?
克里希那穆提：你见过水泥里长出的草吗？
Q: (1) Well, this is a weak seed, you see. (Laughter.)
发问者1：嗯，这是一颗弱种子，你看。（笑声。）
Q: (2) But do we realize that we are mediocre and do we want to get out of it? - that's the point.
发问者2：但是我们是否意识到我们是平庸的，而我们想要摆脱它？—— 那就是这个重点。
K: I am asking you: Are you mediocre? I am not using that word in any derogatory sense - I am using the word "mediocre" as it is described in the dictionary. You are bound to be middle class if you merely pursue your own little activities instead of seeing the whole - the whole world and your particular little place in the whole, not the other way round. People don't see the whole, they are pursuing their little desires, their little pleasures, their little vanities and brutalities, but if they saw the whole and understood their place in it, their relationship to the whole would be totally different.
克里希那穆提：我问你：你平庸吗？ 我没有以任何贬义的方式使用这个词 —— 我使用的是字典中所描述的“平庸”。 你被绑在中间阶层，如果你只追求自己的小生活而不看整体 —— 这整个世界和这个整体中你所在的某个特定的角落，而不是相反。 人们不看这个整体， 他们在追求他们自己的小欲望、小快乐、小虚荣和野蛮， 但如果他们看到整体并理解他们在其中的位置， 他们与整体的关系就会完全地不同。
You, living at Brockwood as a student in a small community, in relationship with your teachers and your fellow students, do you see the whole of what is going on in the world? That is the first thing. To see it objectively, not emotionally, not with prejudice, not with a bias, but just look at it. The various governments will not solve this problem, no politician is interested in this. They want more or less to maintain the status quo, with a little alteration here and there. They don't want the unity of man, they want the unity of England. But even there the different political parties don't say, "Let's all join together and find out what is best for man."
你，作为一个小社区的学生，住在学校里， 与你的老师和同学有着关联， 你是否看见这个世界上正在发生的一切？那是第一件事。 客观地看它，不带情绪，不带偏见，不带一丁点成见，而只是去看它。 各国的政府们不会解决这个问题，没有政客对此感兴趣。 他们或多或少希望维持现状，只是在这里和那里稍作改动。 他们不想要人类的统一，他们想要英国的统一。 但即使在那里，不同的政党也不会说， “让我们一起来找出对人最好的东西。”
Q: But you are not saying it's not possible?
发问者：但你没有说它是不可能的。
K: They are not doing it.
克里希那穆提：他们没有这样做。
Q: Are we?
发问者：我们呢？
K: We are observing, we are first looking at the world. And when you see the whole thing, what is your desire in relation to the whole? If you don't see the whole and merely pursue your particular instinct or tendency or desire, that is the essence of mediocrity, that's what is happening in the world.
克里希那穆提：我们在观察，首先，我们看这个世界。 当你看到这整个事物，在与这个整体的关系中，你的欲望是什么？ 如果你不看这个整体，只追求你自己的本能、倾向、欲望， 那就是平庸的本质，那就是这个世界正在发生的事情。
You see, in the old days the really serious people said, "We will have nothing to do with the world, we will become monks, we will become preachers, we will live without property, with out marriage, without position in society. We are teachers, we will go round the villages and the country, people will feed us, we will teach them morality, we will teach them how to be good, not to hate each other." That used to happen but we can't do that any more. In India one still can. You can go from the north to the south and from east to west, begging. Put on a certain robe and they will feed you and clothe you because that is part of the tradition of India. But even that is beginning to fade, for there are so many charlatans.
你看，在过去，真正严肃的人们说： “我将在这个世界上不做什么事，我们将成为和尚，我们将成为传教士， 我们将过着没有财产、没有婚姻、没有社会地位的生活。 我们是教师，我们会走遍这些乡村和这个国家， 人们会养活我们，我们会教他们道德， 我们会教他们如何做好人，而不是互相仇恨。” 那些事曾经发生过，但我们不能再那样做了。在印度，一个人仍然可以。 你可以从北到南，从东到西，乞讨。 穿上某件长袍，他们会给你吃和穿， 因为这是印度传统的一部分。 但即使这种方式也开始消退，因为有太多的江湖骗子。
So we have to earn a livelihood, we have to live in this world a life that is intelligent, sane, not mechanical - that is the point. And education is to help us to be sane, non-mechanical and intelligent. I keep repeating this. Now how do we, you and I, discuss this thing and find out first what we actually are and see if that can be totally changed? So first look at yourself, don't avoid it, don't say, "How terrible, how ugly." Just observe whether you have got all the tendencies of the insanity which has produced this ugly world. And if you observe your own particular quirks, find out how to change. Let's talk about it, that is relationship, that is friendship, that is affection, that is love. Talk about it and say, "Look, I am greedy, I feel terribly silly". Can that be changed radically? That is part of our education.
因此，我们必须学习谋生， 我们必须在这个世界上过一种智慧、理智、而非机械化的生活 —— 那就是重点。 教育是为了帮助我们保持理智、非机械化和智慧。我一直在重复这。 现在我们，你和我，如何讨论这件事， 首先找出我们的实际情况，看是否可以完全地改变？ 所以，先看你自己，不要回避它，不要说，“多么可怕，多么丑陋。” 只是看：看你是否已经拥有那些来源于这个丑陋的世界的不理智的一切倾向。 如果您观察到你自己特殊的毛病，找出如何去改变。 让我们来谈论它，那就是关系，那就是友情，那就是感情，那就是爱。 谈论它并说，“看，我很贪婪，我觉得非常地愚蠢”。 那个毛病能从根本上改变吗？那就是我们教育的一部分。
Q: It's when I feel insecure that I become silly.
发问者：当我感到不安全时，我就会变得愚蠢。
K: Of course. But are you sure? Don't theorize about it. Are you seeking security? - in somebody, in a profession, in some quality, or in an idea?
克里希那穆提：当然。但是你确定吗？不要理论化它。你在寻求安全吗？ —— 在某个人、某个职业、某个品质或一个想法中？
Q: One needs security.
发问者：一个人需要安全。
K: You see how you defend it? First find out if you are seeking security; don't say one needs it. Then we will see whether it is needed or not, but first see if you are seeking security. Of course you are! Have you understood the meaning and the implications of that word 'depending'? - depending on money, depending on people, on ideas, all coming from outside. To depend on some belief, or on the image you have about yourself, that you are a great man, that you have this or that, you know all this nonsense that goes on. So you have to understand what the implications of that word are and whether you are caught in those things. If you see you depend on somebody for your security than you begin to question, then you begin to learn. You begin to learn what is implied in dependency, in attachment, In security, fear and pleasure are involved. When there is no security you feel lost, you feel lonely; and when you feel lonely you escape, through drink, women or whatever you do. You act neurotically because you haven't really solved this problem.
克里希那穆提：你看看，你是如何捍卫它的？ 首先，确定您是否正在寻求安全；不要说一个人需要它。 然后，我们来看它是否需要，但是，首先看你是否在寻求安全。 你当然是！你理解“依赖”这个词的意思和内涵吗？ —— 依赖于金钱，依赖于人们，依赖于各种观念，所有这些都来自外部。 依赖于某种信念，或者一种你对自己的印象， 那就是：你是一个伟大的人，你拥有这个或那个，你清楚其中的所有乱七八糟的东西。 因此，您必须理解那个词的含义，以及您是否陷入到那些东西之中。 如果你看到你依赖某个人来保证你的安全，而不是一开始就质疑，那么，你就开始学习了。 你开始学习：在依赖、依恋之中，暗含着什么内容，在安全中，隐含着恐惧和快乐。 当没有了安全，你会感到迷茫，你会感到孤独； 当你感到孤独时，你会通过喝酒、女人或你所所做的任何事情来逃避。 你的行为是神经兮兮的，因为你没有真正地解决这个问题。
So find out, learn what the meaning, the significance and the implications of that word are in actuality, not in theory. Learn: that is part of our education. I depend on certain people. I depend on them for my security, for my safety, for my money, for my pleasure, etc. Therefore if they do something which upsets me I get frightened, irritated, angry, jealous, frustrated, and then I rush off and put my claws into somebody else. The same problem goes on all the time. So I say to myself, let me first understand what this means. I must have money, I must have food, clothes and shelter, those are normal things. But when money is involved the whole cycle begins. So I have to learn and know about the whole thing; not after I have committed myself, then it is too late. I commit myself by getting married to somebody and then I am caught, then I am dependent, then the battle begins, wanting to be free yet being caught by responsibility, by the mortgage.
因此，找出、学习那个词暗含的意义和内容，通过实际的行为，而不是在理论层面上。 学习：就是我们的教育的一部分。我依赖某些人们。 我依赖他们来保障我的安全、我的钱、我的快乐等等。 因此，如果他们做了让我不安的事情，我会感到害怕、恼怒、生气、嫉妒、沮丧， 然后，我会匆匆忙忙地把我的爪子伸到别人身上。 同样的问题一直存在。所以我对自己说，让我先理解这意味着什么。 我必须有钱，我必须有食物、衣服和住所，这些都是正常的。 但是当涉及到钱的时候，整个循环就开始了。 所以，我必须学习和理解整个事情；不是等我陷进去之后，那就为时已晚。 我通过与某人结婚来承担义务， 然后我陷入其中、产生了依赖，接着战斗开始了， 想获得自由，又被困于责任和贷款。
Here is a problem: Tungki says, "I must have security." I answered: before you say "I must", find out what it means, learn about it.
这里有一个问题：东基说，“我必须有安全。” 我回答：在你说“我必须”之前，先找出它的意思，理解它。
Q: I must have food and clothes and a house.
发问者：我必须有食物、衣服和房子。
K: Yes, go on.
克里希那穆提：是的，继续。
Q: To have that I need to earn enough money.
发问者：要拥有它，我需要赚到足够的钱。
K: So you do whatever you can. Then what happens?
克里希那穆提：所以你尽力去做。然后会发生什么？
Q: To earn this money I depend on someone...
发问者：为了赚这些钱，我依赖某人...
K: You depend on society, on your patron, on your employer. He chases you around, he is brutal, and you put up with it because you depend on him. That is what is happening right round the world. Please look at it first, as you look at a map. You say: I have to earn a livelihood. I know in earning a livelihood I am dependent on society as it exists. It demands so many hours a day for five or six days a week and if I don't earn a livelihood I have nothing. That's one thing. And I also depend inwardly on my wife or a priest or a counsellor - you understand?
克里希那穆提：你依赖社会、你的赞助人、你的雇主。 他在到处驱赶你，他很残忍，你忍受它是因为你依赖他。 那就是世界各地正在发生的事情。 请先看它，就像看地图一样。你说：我要谋生。 我知道在谋生的时候，我依赖于现有的社会。一周有五六天，每天需要这么多小时， 如果我不谋生，我就一无所有。 那是一件事情。而且我内心也依赖我的妻子、牧师或顾问 —— 你明白吗？
Q: So knowing all that I won't marry. I see the dependency, all the trouble that will come.
发问者：所以知道了那一切，我不会结婚。我看到这种依赖，所有的麻烦都会来。
K: You are not learning. Don't say you won't marry, see what the problem is first. I need food, clothes and shelter, those are primary needs and for those I depend on society as it is, whether it is communist or capitalist. I know that and I am going to look in other directions; I need security emotionally, that means dependence on somebody, on my wife, friends, neighbours, it doesn't matter who it is. And when I depend on somebody, fear always exists. I am learning, I am not saying what to do yet. I depend on you, you are my brother, my wife, my husband, and the moment you go away I am lost, I am frightened - I do neurotic things. I see dependence on people leads to that.
克里希那穆提：你没有在学习。别说你不会结婚，先看看这个问题。 我需要食物、衣服和住所， 这些是我依赖于社会的主要需求，无论是在共产主义还是资本主义社会。 我知道这一点，我将转向另一个方向看； 我在情感上需要安全，那意味着依赖某人，依赖我的妻子、朋友、邻居，无论是谁。 当我依赖某人时，恐惧总是存在。 我正在学习，我还没说要做什么。 我依赖你，你是我的兄弟，我的妻子，我的丈夫，你一离开，我就迷失了， 我很害怕 —— 我做出某些神经质的事情。我看到对人的依赖导致了这一点。
Also I ask: do I depend on ideas? On a belief that there is a God - or not - that we must have universal brotherhood, whatever it is; that is another dependence. And you come along and say, "What rubbish this is, you are living in a world of illusion." So I get shaken and I say, "What am I to do?" Then instead of learning about it I join some other cult. Do you see all this? Do you discover that in yourself you are insufficient and therefore you are dependent? Then you seek sufficiency in yourself: "I am all right, I have found God, what I believe is true, my experience is the real thing." So you ask: what is there that is so completely secure that it is never disturbed?
我还要问：我是否依赖于想法？依赖一种信仰：相信上帝 —— 或者不信 —— 我们必须拥有普遍的兄弟情谊，无论它是什么；那是另一种依赖。 然后，你走过来说，“这是什么垃圾，你生活在一个幻觉的世界里。” 所以我动摇了，我说：“我该怎么办？” 然后，我没有学习它，而是加入了一些其他的邪教组织。你看到这一切了吗？ 你有没有发现，你自己是不足的，因此你在依赖？ 然后，你在你自己的里面寻求充足： “我很好，我找到了上帝，我所相信的都是真实的，我的体验是真实的。” 所以你问：有没有某个绝对安全的，绝不会被打扰的东西？
Q: I don't see the dependency on the two things you were talking about...
发问者：我没有看到对你所说的这两种依赖......
K: We re asking what the implications of wanting security mean. We're looking at the map of security. It shows that I depend on food, clothes and shelter by working in a society that is corrupt - and I see what depending on people does. I am not saying this should be or that should not be. The map says: look, this road leads to fear, pleasure, anger, fulfilment, frustration and neurosis. And it also says: look at the world of ideas, depending on ideas is the most flimsy form of security, they are only words which have become a reality as an image; you live on an image. And that map says: be self-sufficient. So I depend on myself, I must have confidence in myself. What is yourself? You are the result of all this. So the map has shown you all these things and you ask now, "Where is there complete security - including a job and all the rest of it?" Where will you find it?
克里希那穆提：我们问的是，想要安全的含义是什么。 我们正在查看这张“安全”的地图。 它展示出，我在一个腐败的社会中工作，依赖食物、衣服和住所 —— 我看到了“依赖他人意味着什么”。我并没有说不应该这样，或应该这样。 地图上说：看，这条路通向恐惧、快乐、愤怒、满足、沮丧和神经症。 它还说：看，这是一个观念的世界，依靠观念是最脆弱的安全形式， 它们只是一堆文字，作为一种“印象”幻化到现实中；你生活在一个印象里。 那张地图说：自给自足。所以我要靠我自己，我必须对我自己有信心。 什么是你自己？你就是这一切的结果。 所以地图向你展示了所有这些东西， 你现在问，“完整的安全在哪里 —— 拥有一份工作以及相关的所有东西吗？” 你会在哪里找到它？
Q: You find it when you have no fears.
发问者：当你没有恐惧的时候，你会发现它。
K: You haven't understood what I am saying. Put a map of this in front of you. Look at it all: physical security, emotional security, intellectual security, and security in your own thoughts, in your own feelings, in your self-confidence. You say, how flimsy all this is. Looking at it all and seeing the flimsiness, the invalidity, the lack of reality behind it, where is security then? It is learning about this which brings intelligence. So in intelligence there is security. Have you understood it?
克里希那穆提：你没明白我在说什么。 把这张地图放在你面前。看这一切： 身体的安全、情感的安全、理智的安全， 以及在你自己的思想、你自己的感觉和你的自信中的安全。 你说，这一切是多么的脆弱。 看着这一切，看到它背后的脆弱、无效、非真实性，那么安全在哪里？ 正是这种学习状态，带来了智慧。 因此，在智慧中，存在安全。你理解吗？
Q: Can one live without security?
发问者：一个人可以没有安全地生活吗？
K: You haven't learned to look first. You have learned to look through your particular image; that image has given you the feeling of security. So first learn to look at the map, put aside the image of what you think is security - that you must have it - and just look. What are the implications of wanting security? When you find there is no security in anything that you have sought, that there is no security in death, no security in living, when you see all that, then the very seeing of the fact that there is no security in the things in which one had sought it, is intelligence. That intelligence gives you complete security.
克里希那穆提：你还没学会，先看。 你已经学会了看你特定的印象；那个印象给了你安全感。 所以首先要学会看这张地图，放下那个你所认为的“安全”的印象 —— 你以为你必须拥有的那个印象 —— 然后，只是看。 想要安全的含义是什么？ 当你发现，在你所寻求的任何事物中，都没有安全， 在死亡中，没有安全；在生活中，没有安全， 当你看到这一切时，那么你就会看到这个事实： 在这个人所追寻的事物中，都没有安全，这就是智慧， 那个智慧能为您提供了完全的安全。
So learning is the beginning of security. The act of learning is intelligence, and in learning there is tremendous security. Are you learning here?
所以学习就是安全的开始。学习的行为就是智慧， 在学习中，有极大的安全。你正在学习吗？
Q: In the family they say one must manage to earn a living, have a certain amount of knowledge. There is this idea about security, this basic necessity.
发问者：在家庭中，他们说必须想办法谋生， 有一定的知识。有一个关于安全的想法，这是基本的需要。
K: Yes, Tungki, that's quite right. Your family, the tradition says you must have physical security, you must have a job, you must have knowledge, a technique, you must specialise, you must be this, you must be that, in order to have that security.
克里希那穆提：是的，通基，说得很对。 你的家人，传统说你必须有身体的安全， 你必须有工作，你必须有知识，有技术，你必须专精， 你必须是这个，你必须是那个，才能有那种安全。
Q: It's an idea.
发问者：这是一个想法。
K: I need money, that's not an idea - everything else is an idea. The physical continuity in security is the real thing; everything else has no reality. And to see that is intelligence. In that intelligence there is the most complete security; I can live anywhere, in the communist world or in a capitalist world.
克里希那穆提：我需要钱，那不是一个想法 —— 其余的一切都是一个想法。 在考虑安全的时候，身体的延续性是真实的；其余一切都没有真实性。 看到那一点，就是智慧。 在那个智慧中，有最完整的安全； 我可以生活在任何地方，在共产主义世界或资本主义世界。
Do you remember we said the other day that meditation is to observe? That is the beginning of meditation. You cannot observe this map if you have the slightest distortion in your mind, if your mind is distorted by prejudice, by fear. To look at this map is to look without prejudice. So learn in meditation what it is to be free of prejudice; that is part of meditation, not just sitting cross-legged in some place. It makes you tremendously responsible, not only for yourself and your relationship but for everything else, the garden, the trees, the people around you - everything becomes tremendously important.
你还记得前些天我们说过，冥想就是去观察吗？ 那就是冥想的开始。 如果你的头脑有一丝的扭曲，你就无法观察到这张地图。 如果你的头脑被偏见、被恐惧扭曲，你就无法观察到这张地图。 因此，在冥想中学习‘什么是’，就是摆脱偏见； 那是冥想的一部分，而不仅仅是盘腿坐在某个地方。 它让你承担巨大的责任，不仅对你自己和你的关系， 而且对其余的一切：花园、树木、你周围的人 —— 一切都变得非常重要。
To be serious is also to have fun. You can't be serious without having fun. We talked the other day about yoga, didn't we? I showed you some breathing exercises. You must do it all with fun, enjoy things - you follow?
保持严肃也是为了玩得开心。 没有乐趣，你就不能严肃。 前几天我们谈到了瑜伽，不是吗？ 我向你展示了一些呼吸练习。你必须带着乐趣去做这一切，享受事物 —— 你懂吗？
Q: There are certain things like learning. I don't think it's possible to discuss them with a sense of fun.
发问者：有一些事情，比如学习。 我认为不可能带着乐趣来讨论它们。
K: Oh yes! It is. Look, Tungki, learning is fun. To see new things is great fun; it gives you tremendous energy if you make a great discovery for yourself - not if someone else discovers it and tells you about it, then it's secondhand. When you are learning it is fun to see something totally new, like discovering a new insect, a new species. To discover how my mind is working, to see all the nuances, the subtleties: to learn about it is fun.
克里希那穆提：哦，可以的！看，东基，学习就是乐趣 看到新事物是非常有趣的；如果你自己有一个重大的发现，它会带给你巨大的能量 —— 而不是别人发现了它，再把它告诉你，那么它就是二手的。 当你学习的时候，看到一些全新的东西，那是非常有趣的， 比如发现一种新的昆虫，一个新的物种。 发现我的头脑是如何工作的，看到所有的细微差别，这种微妙之处：学习它就是乐趣。