During the past four decades, the talks and writings of Krishnamurti have stimulated and profoundly challenged audiences in Asia, Europe and America. During the series of public talks given in the Ojai Valley in California, Krishnamurti for the first time permitted to presence of film cameras. This series of 8 programs in the result.

在过去的四十年里，克里希那穆提的演讲和著作激励并深刻挑战了亚洲、欧洲和美洲的听众。 在加州奥哈伊山谷举行的一系列公开演讲中，克里希那穆提首次允许电影摄像机在场。 这八集系列节目就是其结果。

As always, Krishnamurti addresses himself to questions which most directly affect our lives. This subject of this the 5th program in the series is: "What is love?"

一如既往，克里希那穆提探讨那些最直接影响我们生活的问题。 本系列第五集的主题是：“什么是爱？”

The mind becomes naturally expectant, awaiting, and therefore not clear, decisive, and capable of discovery. And when one asks questions, one has also to find out why one asks it.

头脑会自然地变得期待、等待，因此不再清晰、果断，也无法去发现。 而当一个人提问时，他也必须弄清楚自己为什么要问。

I feel one should ask questions about everything, but it matters very much why one is asking those questions, what's the background?

我觉得一个人应该对一切事物都发问， 但为什么问那些问题、背后的背景是什么，这非常重要。

what is the state of the mind that is asking those questions? Is it awaiting an answer, or expecting to be told? If it is waiting for an answer, who is going to answer it?

提问时的心智状态是怎样的？ 它是在等待一个答案，还是期待被告知？ 如果它在等待答案，谁会来回答它呢？

And a mind that is waiting to find the answer, is not an active mind, it's just waiting, expecting.

而一个等待找到答案的心智，不是一个活跃的心智， 它只是在等待、在期待。

I think then, when we do put a question, it becomes very important. Then such questions, those such questions have a catalystic effect. Then such questions do produce an answer in themselves.

我认为，当我们真正提出一个问题时，它就变得非常重要。 这样的问题具有催化作用。 这样的问题本身就能产生答案。

So, let's proceed to find out the questions we're asking. We know what aggression is, we know what violence is, jealousy, and all the rest of it, which is again a form of energy, an expression of energy.

所以，让我们继续去弄清楚我们正在问的问题。 我们知道什么是攻击，我们知道什么是暴力、嫉妒等等， 这同样是一种能量形式，能量的表达。

And we must also find out, mustn't we, what love is? Now, how does one find out? Not if the energies are similar, but what love is?

我们也必须弄清楚，不是吗，爱是什么？ 那么，一个人如何发现它？ 不是看能量是否相似，而是爱到底是什么？

Is love pleasure, desire? Are you waiting for me to answer it?

爱是快乐吗？是欲望吗？ 你在等我来回答吗？

So, how does one find out? Or is love an energy in a different field altogether? of a different quality, of a different dimension?

那么，一个人如何才能发现？ 或者，爱是否完全是另一个领域的能量？ 拥有另一种品质、另一个维度？

And, how does one find out what love is? Not intellectually, not argumentatively, not splitting it up, saying it is divine, physical, and you know all the rest of it. How does one find out the nature of that thing?

而且，一个人如何发现爱是什么？ 不是通过智力、不是通过辩论、不是把它分割开来，说它是神圣的、肉体的，你知道等等。 一个人如何发现那东西的本性？

Will the conscious mind find it out? The conscious mind being the educated, sophisticated, the mind that has so many experiences, memories, stored up resentments, hatreds.

意识能发现它吗？ 那颗受过教育的、复杂的， 拥有众多经验、记忆、积攒的怨恨和仇恨的心智。

Q: Love is a surplus when your own problems have been solved. K: Love is a surplus when one's own problems are solved. We are trying to find that out, sir. Please, don't let us speculate what love is, that becomes childish.

问：当自己的问题解决后，爱就是一种充盈。 克：当自己的问题解决后，爱就是一种充盈。 我们正在试图弄清楚这一点，先生。 请不要让我们去猜测爱是什么，那会变得幼稚。

How does the mind come upon that thing without conscious effort? You? Am I making...

心智如何在无需意识努力的情况下遇见那？ 你？我是不是……

If I make a conscious effort to find it out, then my conscious effort must have a recognition of what it is, you understand?

如果我有意识地努力去发现它， 那么我的有意识努力必须已经认出了它是什么，你明白吗？

I must have already known it, I must have already smelled it, tasted it, known the quality of it, and if I know it, it's merely a memory. And is memory which is of time, and has that memory and time, anything to do with love?

我必须已经知道它了， 我必须已经闻到过它、尝到过它、知道它的品质， 而如果我知道它，那它仅仅是记忆。 而记忆属于时间，那么那份记忆和时间，与爱有任何关系吗？

So how does one find it out, come upon it? You understand my... Am I making myself clear, the question?

那么一个人如何去发现它、遇见它呢？ 你理解我的……我把问题讲清楚了吗？

It's like enquiring into if there is such thing as "God". I put it in quotes, that word "God" is so heavily loaded, that it has almost lost all its meaning.

这就像在探究是否存在“上帝”这样的东西。 我把它放在引号里，因为“上帝”这个词承载了太多，几乎失去了所有意义。

If one wants to discover it, if there is or if there is not, How does one proceed? Obviously, to find out, all types of belief must come to an end, and therefore, which means, all forms of fear must come to an end. Surely, no?

如果一个人想要去发现它是否存在或不存在，他该如何进行？ 显然，要弄清楚，所有类型的信仰都必须终结， 因此，这也意味着所有形式的恐惧都必须终结。 当然了，难道不是吗？

Belief is a form of hope, and I hope, because I am in despair, and I invent a belief, a security, a state of mind which says: there is something which is permanent, and I believe in that.

信仰是希望的一种形式。我因为绝望而希望， 于是我发明了一种信仰、一种安全感、一种心智状态，它说： 有某种永恒的东西，我相信它。

And that belief obviously not only conditions all examination, all perception, but it prevents the total inaction.

而这种信仰，显然不仅制约了所有的检视、所有的感知， 而且阻碍了彻底的`无以为`。

You understand? Well, I'd better go into it.

你明白吗？好吧，我最好深入讲一下。

I must not only be free of every form of belief, and therefore fear, and also my mind must be so sharp, so sensitive.

我不仅必须摆脱每一种形式的信仰（从而摆脱恐惧）， 而且我的心智必须如此锐利、如此敏感。

The sensitivity brought about right eating and, you know, behaviour and physical condition, and all that. And then only there is a possibility of discovering something.

这种敏感来自于正确的饮食， 你知道，还有行为、身体状况等等。 只有如此，才有可能发现某些东西。

So it seems to me, in the same way, to find out or come upon this thing called love, which is so heavily loaded, one must inquire into this question of pleasure and desire.

所以在我看来，同样地，要发现或遇见这个叫做爱的、被严重滥用的东西， 一个人必须探究快乐和欲望这个问题。

You know, we're not trying to suppress desire. The monks throughout the world have tried that. and those so-called religious people have attempted to control desire, because some authority, religious authority has said "Be free of desire." Because desire leads to bondage.

你知道，我们并不是要压抑欲望。 全世界的僧侣都尝试过那样做。 那些所谓的宗教人士也试图控制欲望， 因为某个权威、宗教权威说过“摆脱欲望”，因为欲望导致束缚。

So, so-called spiritual people, whatever that word may mean, those people have tried either to suppress, eliminate, or sublimate it by identifying themselves with a greater desire, but they are still within the pattern, within the area of desire. And what's wrong with desire?

所以，所谓的灵性人士（无论这个词可能意味着什么）， 那些人要么试图压抑、消除欲望， 要么通过将自己认同于一个更大的欲望来升华它， 但他们仍然在那个模式里、在欲望的领域内。 那么，欲望有什么问题呢？

I see something nice, pleasant, striking. By the very looking at it, there is sensition, there is desire out of that. Isn't that so? Please, this is not a talk, we must...

我看到一些美好、愉快、引人注目的东西。 仅仅通过看它，就产生了感觉，并由此产生了欲望。 难道不是这样吗？请注意，这不是一场演讲，我们必须……

And thought comes and gives that desire a continuity and vitality, and from that, there is this seeking of pleasure. I think this is fairly simple, isn't it?

然后思想介入，赋予那个欲望延续性和活力， 由此产生了对快乐的寻求。 我认为这相当简单，不是吗？

the verbal explanation. but the explanation is not the fact, is not what you discover. If you discovered it, it'll become tremendously vital.

这是口头上的解释。 但解释不是事实，不是你所发现的东西。 如果你发现了它，它会变得极其鲜活。

If I discover how thought strengthens desire by thinking about something which has pleased me - sensually or intellectually, or a sunset, or anything. By thinking about it, it has strengthened the nature of desire, and has given it a continuity, and that continuity becomes pleasure.

如果我去发现思想是如何通过思考那些曾让我快乐的事物（感官上或智力上的快乐、一次日落或任何东西）来强化欲望的。 通过思考它，思想强化了欲望的本性，并赋予了它延续性，而那种延续性就变成了快乐。

All of our attitudes and values and demands are based on this search for comfort and pleasure. And, is it possible for thought not to interfere?

我们所有的态度、价值观和需求都建立在这种对舒适和快乐的寻求之上。 那么，思想是否可能不介入呢？

I see something very beautiful, and there is an immediate sensation, and a desire to touch it, hold it, to own it, to possess it. Then thought comes in.

我看到非常美丽的东西，立刻产生一种感觉， 以及触摸它、握住它、拥有它、占有的欲望。 然后思想介入了。

Is it possible to look at something extraordinarily beautiful - man, woman, child, tree, a house, a picture, whatever it is - and merely observe without the interference of thought?

是否可能看着某个异常美丽的东西 —— 男人、女人、孩子、树、房子、画，无论什么 —— 只是观察，而没有思想的介入？

And when thought interferes, there is a totally different kind of action, as when thought doesn't interfere with desire. You understand? Right?

当思想介入时，就会产生一种完全不同的行动， 而不是思想不介入欲望时的行动。 你明白吗？对吗？

When thought interfere with the desire, which becomes pleasure, then activity has a different meaning altogether, action.

当思想介入欲望（欲望变成了快乐）时， 那么行动就有了完全不同的意义。

And when thought doesn't interfere with the desire, there is again a totally different action which is not time-blinding.

而当思想不介入欲望时， 又会产生一种完全不同的行动，它不会被时间所蒙蔽。

So all this is we are inquiring into the nature or come upon that thing which we call love. And we are asking if that love is something not of the same energy as hate. We must bear that in mind, otherwise we will wander away from the central question.

所以，我们所有这些都是在探究那个我们称之为爱的本質，或者说遇见它。 我们在问，那份爱是否是一种与仇恨不同能量的东西。 我们必须记住这一点，否则我们就会偏离核心问题。

And to answer that question really, one has to, hasn't one, to free the mind from desire and pleasue to find out.

而真正要回答那个问题， 一个人必须，难道不是吗， 让心智从欲望和快乐中解脱出来，才能去发现。

The gentleman ask how, is there a how? Is there a method - listen to the question - Is there a method to free the mind from pleasure?

那位先生问“如何”，存在一个“如何”吗？ 是否存在一种方法 —— 听清楚这个问题 —— 是否存在一种能让心智从快乐中解脱的方法？

And the following of a method in order to achieve the result is again based on pleasure. No? So there is no how, there is only a state of listening. And when one listens so totally, this question is answered.

而遵循一种方法以期达到结果，这又建立在快乐之上了。不是吗？ 所以没有“如何”，只有一种聆听的状态。 当一个人如此全然聆听时，这个问题就被解答了。

You see, first of all, sir, how do you look at anything totallly? You say it's not possible, and when you say it is not possible, you have already blocked yourself from finding out.

你看，首先，先生，你如何完整地看待任何事物？ 你说这不可能， 而当你这样说的时候，你已经阻断了自己去发现。

So to find out, you have to look at your own mind, looking at your friend or somebody, or a tree, how you look at it, why do we create an image of another and hold it?

所以要发现，你必须观察自己的心智，观察你看待朋友或某人、或一棵树的方式， 你如何看待它，我们为什么制造另一个人的形象并且抓住它不放？

And is it not possible at the moment of experience, to live it so completely, or let it go through you, so that no image remains, no mark remains?

是否有可能在体验发生的当下，如此完全地活在其中，或让它穿过你， 以至于没有形象留下、没有痕迹留下？

Please, these are all questions that really have to an answered not by words, but by actual direct perception and discovery.

请注意，这些全都是真正需要回答的问题，不是通过言语， 而是通过实际直接的感知和发现。

And, to find out anything new, requires tremendous inquiry, meditation. You don't just get it by, just coming to a meeting for an hour and thinking. One has to work tremendously hard.

而且，要发现任何新的东西，需要巨大的探究和冥想。 你不可能仅仅通过来参加一小时的会议并思考就能得到它。 一个人必须非常努力地工作。

You do work very hard to earn a livelihood, to go to the office every day. But this requires much more alertness, much more careful examination.

你为了谋生、每天去上班，确实工作非常努力。 但这需要更多的警觉性、更仔细的审视。

And one is not, one does not have the energy, the patience or the interest, because this is non-profitable. It doesn't bring you any profit, financial or any other way.

而人们并没有，人们没有精力、耐心或兴趣，因为这是无利可图的。 它不会给你带来任何物质或其他方面的利益。

Q: Is the action of love a permanent escape of suffering? K: Do we know what suffering is? Do you really know what suffering is? Only we know it when we remain with is, Right? We don't remain with anything. Oh load! Do we?

问：爱的行动是对痛苦的一种永久性逃避吗？ 克：我们了解什么是痛苦吗？你真的了解痛苦是什么吗？ 只有当我们就与痛苦待在一起时，我们才知道它，对吗？ 我们不会与任何东西待在一起。 哦，天哪！我们能做到吗？

Q: We only think about it. K: We think about it. Let us take the question of suffering. Hmm? First of all, is it possible to end it totally, without becoming hard, brutal, brittle, and all the rest of it.

问：我们只是想到了它。 克：我们想到了它。 让我们来看看痛苦这个问题。嗯？ 首先，是否有可能彻底终结它，而不会变得冷酷、残忍、脆弱等等？

And, to go to the very end of it, and find out. Can we do that one thing this afternoon? Ah? shall we? Hmm?

并且，要走到它的尽头，去发现。 我们今天下午能做好这一件事吗？ 啊？我们可以吗？嗯？

I suffer. Why do I suffer? And what is this nature of suffering? I suffer because I have lost my son, my mother, sister, or somebody doesn't love me, or I cannot fulfil, or I'm thwarted, I haven't got a good brain and somebody else has a good brain.

我受苦。我为什么受苦？ 痛苦的本性是什么？ 我受苦是因为失去了儿子、母亲、姐妹，或者某人不爱我， 或者我无法实现，或者我受挫， 我没有一个好头脑而别人有好的头脑。

And I know what it means to suffer. In suffering, there is a great deal of self-pity.

我知道受苦意味着什么。 在痛苦中，有大量的自怜。

And, suffering, I want to escape from it, because I don't know how to resolve it. And I, and so I have network of escapes.

而且，对于痛苦，我想要逃避它，因为我不知道如何解决它。 所以我有一整套逃避的网络。

Now, can I stop from escaping? And it's very difficult, because escaping is so subtle.

那么，我能停止逃避吗？ 这非常困难，因为逃避是如此微妙。

I can escape by turning on the radio, a magzine, talking to somebody, and so on, so on, but the thing remains, and I don't want to get in touch with it, it's too painful, too agonising, I push it away.

我可以打开收音机、看杂志、与人聊天等等来逃避， 但那个东西还在， 而我不想与它接触，它太痛苦、太折磨人了，我推开它。

So, can I stop from escaping altogether, and just look at it, live with it, know it? Not suppress it, not control it, not sublimate it, not do all that kind of idiotic stuff, but get to know it, live with it, go into it.

那么，我能否完全停止逃避， 只是看着它、与它共处、了解它？ 不去压抑它、控制它、升华它，不做所有那些愚蠢的事情， 而是去了解它，与它共处，深入其中。

Q: You say be quiet. You do give an answer. K: Hmm. Q: And yet why just be quiet, why not speak, why not see, why not hear, why not do, why not think?

问：你说“安静”。你确实给出了一个答案。 克：呵呵。 问：但为什么只是安静？为什么不说、不看、不听、不做、不想？

K: Sir, we went into that. We have thought a great deal about suffering - volumes have been written by religious people and all the rest of it, and yet we suffer. Suffering, apparently, is a daily affair.

克：先生，我们探讨过那一点。我们对痛苦思考了很多 —— 宗教人士等等写了很多著作，然而我们仍在受苦。 显然，痛苦是日常事。

And a man asks: "Is it possible to end it?" And when he says "Please tell me how to end it?" then, is that thinking? is that examing? or you're merely wanting a result, which would be greatly pleasurable?

于是一个人问：“有可能终结它吗？” 当他说“请告诉我如何终结它？”时，是在思考吗？是在审视吗？ 还是你仅仅想要一个结果，一个会带来巨大快乐的结果？

When the suffering ends, obviously you think it will be tremendous, there'll be great pleasure. So one follows the method in order to have that pleasure, but there is no understanding of suffering. And so, when there's no understanding of suffering, it comes in another form.

当痛苦结束时，显然你认为那将是巨大的、会有很大的快乐。 所以一个人遵循那个方法是为了得到那份快乐，但却没有理解痛苦。 因此，当没有理解痛苦时，它会以另一种形式出现。

So what we are trying to do, is to find out for oneself, whether it is possible to end this thing that we call suffering, in which is involved self-pity, loneliness, all that.

所以我们试图做的，就是自己去发现， 是否有可能终结这个我们称之为痛苦的东西， 其中包含着自怜、孤独等等。

Q: Is it necessary to suffer in order to understand suffering? K: Is it necessary to suffer in order to understand? in order to understand, Hmm, I think, Christianity has made suffering into something holy. By suffering, we say we are going to... Oh, you know, reach heaven. I think a mind that suffers is the most stupid mind. It doesn't end it.

问：为了理解痛苦，有必要受苦吗？ 克：为了理解，有必要受苦吗？ 为了理解，哼，我认为，基督教把痛苦变成了某种神圣的东西。 通过受苦，我们说要……哦，你知道，到达天堂。 我认为一个受苦的心智是最愚蠢的心智。 它没有终结痛苦。

So please, sir, we come back, what is it we are asking about? What is it we're all wanting to find out?

所以，先生，我们回到原处，我们到底在问什么？ 我们到底都想弄清楚什么？

What is the mind when it is not quiet? All right? Most of our minds are not quiet, are they?

当心智不安静时，它是什么状态？好吧？ 我们大多数人的心智都不安静，不是吗？

Ceaselessly agitated, active, thinking about something, or soliloquizing, talking to itself, imagining, it is endlessly restless, isn't it? Hmm?

不停地激动、活跃、想这儿想那儿， 或者自言自语、与自身对话、想象， 它无休止地躁动不安，不是吗？嗯？

And how do we know any quiet when a mind is so restless? And it may be the nature of the mind never to be quiet. And why are we so restless, especially the modern world?

当一个心智如此躁动不安时，我们又如何知道任何安静呢？ 也许心的本性就是永远不安静。 而且，为什么我们如此躁动不安，尤其是在现代世界？

My tendency, my demand for a particular satisfaction has not been satisfied. And I'm always seeking something which will give me immense satisfaction and I know there isn't any. So the restless mind may be the result of a neurological state, or restless because we haven't found an answer to anything, an answer, in the deep sense of the word, to fundamental issues. Therefore it has nothing to do, It's like a leaf driven all over the place.

我的倾向、我对某种特定满足的需求没有得到满足。 我总是在寻求能给我巨大满足的东西，而我知道没有任何东西能。 所以躁动的心智可能是一种神经状态的结果， 或者是因为我们还没有找到任何答案 —— 从深刻意义上说，对根本问题的答案。 因此它无所适从，就像一片被吹得到处打转的叶子。

And without understanding the nature of one's own thinking which is self-knowing, quietness of the mind is not possible. And to know oneself is the beginning of wisdom - not in a book, not in psychology, professors, all that. Wisdom is in knowing oneself, it comes out of the soil of self-knowing. Right, sirs.

而不了解自己思考的本性（即自知），心智的安静是不可能的。 了解自己是智慧的开端 ——不是从书本、心理学、教授那里。 智慧在于了解自己，它来自于自知的土壤。 对吧，先生们。

Aside: This has been the 5th of 8 programs presenting the talks of Krishnamurti. Subsequent programs in this series are titled: Questioning, Living and Death and The end of Conflict.

旁白：以上是克里希那穆提八集系列演讲中的第五集。 本系列后续节目的标题为：《质疑》、《生与死》和《冲突的终结》。