Aside: The speaker is Krishnamurti, one of the more challenging and creative men of our times. During the past four decades, the writings and talks of Krishnamurti have attracted an increasing audience in Europe, Asia and America. This series represents the first time that Krishnamurti has allowed his talks to be filmed.

旁白：演讲者是克里希那穆提，他是我们时代最具挑战性和创造力的人物之一。 在过去四十年里，克里希那穆提的著作和演讲在欧洲、亚洲和美洲吸引了越来越多的听众。 这一系列节目是克里希那穆提首次允许将自己的演讲拍摄下来。

In this 2nd of 8 programs, filmed principlly in the Ojai Valley in California. Krishnamurti, in public talks and in informal conversation, speaks directly to the fundamental problems of today. In particular, he speaks of the problem of change, and suggests that the real problem is not changing society, but changing ourselves.

在这八集系列节目的第二集中，影片主要在加利福尼亚州的奥哈伊山谷拍摄。 克里希那穆提在公开演讲和非正式对话中，直接探讨了当今的根本问题。 他特别谈到了改变的问题，并指出真正的问题不在于改变社会，而在于改变我们自己。

Is it possible to empty the mind of the known? One must have asked this question vaguely, or with a purpose, because one suffers, one has anxieties, whether it's possible to go beyond, or one has vague hints of it.

是否有可能清空头脑中已知的一切？ 人们一定是模糊地或带着某种目的问过这个问题， 因为人痛苦、焦虑，想知道是否可能超越，或者对此有一些模糊的暗示。

Now we are asking it, as a question which must be answered, as a challenge which must be responded to. And this challenge is not an outward challenge, but a psychological, inward challenge. And we're going to find out, whether it is possible to empty the mind of the known.

现在我们提出这个问题，把它当作一个必须回答的问题，一个必须回应的挑战。 而这个挑战不是外在的挑战，而是心理上、内在的挑战。我们将去弄清楚，是否可能清空头脑中已知的一切。

Look at that oak tree, actually look at it. You are the observer and the oak is the observed. There is a space between you and the thing, which is the tree. In that interval of space, is time, Right? The time that has to be covered to see that object. In that interval of space, there are all kinds of ideas, which actually prevents me from seeing the fact of the tree.

看看那棵橡树，真正地看它。 你是观察者，橡树是被观察者。你和那棵树之间有一个空间。 在那个空间间隔中，存在着时间，对吗？ 为了看到那个物体所需花费的时间。 在那个空间间隔中，有各种各样的观念，这些观念实际上阻止了我看到那棵树的真实面目。

When you no longer name, no longer thought functioning as knowledge about the tree, then, is there a space between you and the tree? Then, if you go into it very deeply and observe all this, then the observer is the observed - which is not the observer identifies himself with the tree.

当你不再命名，不再让思想作为关于树的知识而运作时，那么你和树之间还有空间吗？ 然后，如果你非常深入地探究并观察这一切， 那么观察者就是被观察者 —— 这并不是说观察者将自己等同于树。

K: Observer is the image, which has been created. Q: The observer is the image that has been created. K: He is the censor, the entity that judges, compares, all that.

K：观察者就是那个被制造出来的形象。 Q：观察者就是那个被制造出来的形象。 K：他是审查者，是那个判断、比较等等的实体。

Now, and then he looks at the object, either the tree or his own experience, or his image, his relationship with somebody, another. so the observer is the image, looking at the image which he has created about the other. So the relationship between the observer and the observed, is not a relationship, it is two images looking at each other.

然后，他看着那个物体，要么是树，要么是他自己的经验，要么是他的形象，或者他与某人、另一人的关系。 所以观察者是那个形象，他看着自己关于他人所制造的形象。 因此观察者与被观察者之间的关系并不是真正的关系，而是两个形象在相互注视。

Now, if the observer, when the observer has no image at all, which is quite a tremendous problem, inquiry, which is meditation, all that, then the observer is the observed. what is, is the observer, not the observer is looking at what is. Right?

那么，如果观察者——当观察者完全没有形象时（这本身就是一个巨大的问题、探究，也就是冥想等等），那么观察者就是被观察者。 实然就是观察者本身，而不是观察者在看着实然。对吗？

When the observer is the observed, and the observer has always acted - as though the observed is something different from himself, then he could act.

当观察者就是被观察者时，而观察者过去一向行动时 ——就好像被观察者是与他不同的东西，那样他才能行动。

But when he realises that `the obsever is the observed`, all action ceases on his part. and therefore all effort, and therefore there is no fear at all.

但是当他意识到“观察者就是被观察者”时，他那边的一切行动就停止了， 从而一切努力也停止了，因此根本没有恐惧。

This requires a great deal of inward inquiry, inward observation, step by step, without coming to any conclusion.

这需要大量的内在探究、内在观察，一步一步地进行，而不得出任何结论。

Why do you choose? What is the necessity of choice? If you see something very clearly, as we just now saw what freedom implied, when the mind is only free that it can see the total. when you see that clearly, there is no choice. It's only the confused mind that chooses.

你为什么要选择？选择的必要性是什么？ 如果你非常清楚地看到某件事，就像我们刚才看到自由所蕴含的意义那样 ——只有当心智自由时，它才能看到整体。 当你清楚地看到这一点时，就没有选择了。只有困惑的心智才会选择。

Awareness takes place only when there is no choice, or when you are aware of all the conflicting choices, conflicting desires, the strains, just to observe all this movement of contradiction. and knowing that the observer is the observed, and therefore, in that process, there is no choice at all, but only watching what is.

觉知只有在没有选择时才会发生， 或者当你觉察到所有相互冲突的选择、矛盾的欲望、紧张压力时， 只是去观察这整个矛盾的运动。 并且知道观察者就是被观察者，因此在那个过程中，根本没有选择，只有对实然的观看。

And that is entirely different from concentration. And that awareness brings a quality of attention, in which there is neither the observer nor the observed. When you really attend, completely attend, like now, if you are really listening, there is neither the listener nor the speaker.

这完全不同于专注。 那种觉知带来一种全神贯注的品质，在这种专注中，既没有观察者也没有被观察者。 当你真正地、完全地专注时，就像现在，如果你真的在倾听，那么既没有听者也没有说者。

And that state of attention brings about an extraordinary freshness, youth - not youth, in America, they use that word terribly - an extraordinary sense of freshness, qulity of newness to the mind. And this emptying of the mind, with all the experiences it has had, is meditation.

那种专注的状态会带来非凡的新鲜感和活力 ——不是年轻（在美国，他们滥用那个词） ——而是一种非凡的新鲜感，一种心智的新颖品质。 而清空心智及其所拥有的一切经验，就是冥想。

If you observe very closely, and that's one of the most arduous things, and that doesn't need effort at all, just to sit of an afternoon, whenever you have time and leisure, to look at it, to look at flower, to look at yourself, to look at all the movement of your thought and your feelings and your reactions. just to observe without any choice, which is the beginning of self-knowing. And without self-knowing, man is caught everlastingly in confusion and misery.

如果你非常贴近地观察 —— 那可是一件最艰巨的事，却也不需要一丁点儿努力。 只需在某个下午，当你有时间和闲暇时，坐下来看看它， 看看花朵，看看你自己，看看你的思想、感受和反应的全部运动。 只是没有任何选择地观察，这就是自知的开端。 没有自知，人就永远陷入困惑和痛苦之中。

Q: The thing that so strikes me in the talks and in the conversations that I've listened to is the contemporaneity, the immediacy and directness of our problems, of what you are talking about, and of our problems.

问：在您所讲的以及我所听到的对话中，让我如此震撼的一点是，我们的问题 —— 您所谈论的问题以及我们自身的问题 —— 所具有的时代性、即时性和直接性。

And at the same time, so struck by the fact that most of the things of the world in which we live are designed in one sense, simply to distrack us from an understanding of the problem.

与此同时，我也被这样一个事实所震撼： 我们所生活的世界中的大多数事物，从某种意义上说， 其设计只是为了让我们分心，无法去理解问题本身。

K: Yes, quite, quite, Sir, isn't it really, we have developed a whole network of escapes, and we're caught in those escapes, Hmm? and those escapes are preventing us from understanding the problems.

克：是的，没错，先生，难道不是吗？ 我们已经发展出一整套逃避的网络，而我们被困在这些逃避之中，嗯？ 这些逃避阻止了我们理解问题。

The problems are there, you know, India, here or Russsia, anywhere, but I am not at all sure if religions, organised religions, dogmas, sects, have not taken us away from the central fact of being able to face these problems - not translate them, you follow what I mean? - not try to go beyond them, but actually face them, and see if we can dissolve them.

问题就在那里，你知道，印度、这里、俄罗斯，任何地方。 但我完全不确信宗教、有组织的宗教、教条、宗派是否没有把我们带离那个核心事实 ——即能够面对这些问题，不是去诠释它们，你明白我的意思吗？ 不是试图超越它们，而是实际地面对它们，看看我们能否化解它们。

And thought creates the past, the present and the future - which is time. There is time by the clock, chronological time - we are not concerned with that. If you have to keep an appointment, and so on, you must have the chronological time of yesterday, today and tomorrow, But we are talking about the psychological time, which thought has bred, and that time is the product of thought.

思想创造了过去、现在和未来——也就是时间。 有钟表时间、编年时间 —— 我们不关心那个。 如果你要赴约等等，你必须拥有昨天、今天和明天的编年时间。 但我们谈论的是心理上的时间，那是思想所孕育的，那个时间是思想的产物。

I have had that pleasure, I am going to have it, and I shall have it. This time quality is created by thought - bred, put together by thought, and thought is time, and it's time that creates fear.

我曾经有过那种快乐，我将要拥有它，我会拥有它。 这种时间品质是由思想创造的 —— 由思想孕育、组装起来的，而思想就是时间，正是时间创造了恐惧。

And without probing into this `time, pleasure, thought`, we're always bound by time, and therefore time has never a stop. It's only when there is an end to time, there is something totally new.

如果不深入探究这“时间、快乐、思想”， 我们就总是被时间束缚，因此时间永不停息。 只有当时间终结时，才会有全新的东西。

Q: You speak of creating not a new consciousness, but a new society. K: New society in relation to a mind that has completely undergone a revolution, with regard to the psychological structure of society. Q: Yes. Which would mean a society which is not in time?

问：您谈到要创造的不是一种新意识，而是一个新社会。 克：新社会是与一个在心理结构上经历了彻底革命的心智相关联的。 问：是的。那是否意味着一个不在时间中的社会？

K: No, it has to be also. Society has to be in time, but the individuals who have freed themselves from the structure, psychological structure, will be freed of time. Therefore, they won't be a slave to time, but yet obey the laws of time in society.

克：不，社会也必须在时间中。社会必须在时间中， 但是那些从心理结构中解脱出来的个体，将摆脱时间。 因此，他们不会成为时间的奴隶，但在社会中仍会遵守时间的法则。

Q: It certainly isn't modern man who has invented time, but the concept has an awful lot to do with time.

问：时间肯定不是现代人发明的，但这个概念与时间有着极大的关系。

K: Yes, time. I think it is because he made himself incapable of facing what is, the fact. Therefore he has a concept about the fact - the fact inwardly, psychologically. and according to that concept, formula, he functions. Therefore the fact, the formula and action are contradictory with each other. And therefore he is in constant battle within himself.

克：是的，时间。我认为这是因为他自己让自己没有能力去面对实然、事实。 因此他对事实 —— 内在的、心理上的事实 —— 持有一种概念，并依据那个概念、那个公式来运作。 因此事实、公式和行动彼此矛盾，所以他内心一直在交战。

So, is it possible to act without idea? Ah? Idea being organised thought, and therefore formula, You follow? Q: Yes, yes.

那么，有没有可能不带观念地行动？啊？ 观念就是组织化的思想，也就是公式，你明白吗？ 问：是的，是的。

K: It's only the free mind can see the whole, right? Q: But he must have some experience of the whole in order to see that thing. K: Ah, no, no. To see the whole thing, you need a very sharp mind, very clear mind, a mind that's not biased, a mind that doesn't say "This I like, this I don't like."

克：只有自由的心智才能看到整体，对吗？ 问：但他必须对整体有一些体验才能看到那个东西。 克：啊，不，不。要看到整体，你需要一个非常敏锐、非常清晰的心智， 一个没有偏见的心智，一个不会说“我喜欢这个，我不喜欢那个”的心智。

Q: You have eliminated the mind that is in a pattern or expects to be led - It won't ever see the complete truth. But does that necessarily mean that the mind that is free will see the Truth?

问：你已经排除了那种处于模式中或期待被引导的心智 —— 它永远看不到完整的真相。 但是这是否必然意味着自由的心智就会看到真相？

K: Look, if you want to see the view of that valley from the hill, you take a survey of the whole thing, don't you? That means your mind is no longer merely fixed on the Thacher School or a particular school, you look at the whole valley. So here is a whole complex map of life, - business... all the rest of that, very complex, and to understand the whole of that, you must be free to look.

克：你看，如果你想从山上看那个山谷的景色，你会纵观整个景象，不是吗？ 那意味着你的心智不再仅仅固定在撒切尔学校或某个特定的学校，你看到的是整个山谷。 所以这里有一张完整的、复杂的生活地图——商业……所有其他一切，非常复杂， 而要理解那整个，你必须自由地去看。

Therefore I say, therefore we say, free the mind from fear. As long as there is fear, that fear will take shelter in a belief - Christian, or doesn't matter what belief. Because fear demands comfort, security, hope, and all the rest of it.

因此我说，因此我们说，让心智从恐惧中解脱出来。 只要存在恐惧，那份恐惧就会躲进某个信仰里 —— 基督教或任何信仰都无所谓。 因为恐惧需要舒适、安全、希望等等。

So, being afraid of something - death or something else, that fear must take shelter in something. Therefore, whether you believe in reincarnation or not, or some other belief - it's the same, all belief are the same, because they are essentially born out of this fear. So really, the question is: Can fear be eliminated altogether?

所以，对某事——死亡或其他事情 —— 感到恐惧，那份恐惧必须躲进某个东西里。 因此，无论你是否相信轮回或其他信仰——都一样，所有信仰都一样，因为它们本质上都源于这种恐惧。 所以真正的问题是：恐惧能否被彻底消除？

It's like inquiring into if there is such thing as 'God'. I put it in quote, that word 'God' is so heavily loaded that it has almost lost all its meaning. If one wants to discover it, if there is, or if there is not, how does one proceed? Obviously, to find out, all types of belief must come to an end, and therefore which means all forms of fear must come to an end.

信仰是希望的一种形式。我因为绝望而希望，于是我发明了一种信仰、一种安全感 —— 一种心智状态，它说“有某种永恒的东西，我相信它”。 而这种信仰，显然，不仅制约了所有的检视、所有的感知，而且还阻碍了彻底的灵动。

Belief is a form of hope. And I hope because I am in despair, and I invent a belief, a security - a state of mind which says "There is something which is permanent, and I believe in that." And that belief, obviously, not only conditions all examination, all perception, but it prevents the total inaction.

这就像在探究是否存在“上帝”这样的东西。 我把它放在引号里，因为“上帝”这个词承载了太多东西，几乎失去了所有意义。 如果一个人想要去发现它是否存在，或者不存在，他该如何进行？ 显然，要弄明白，所有类型的信仰都必须终结，因此这意味着所有形式的恐惧都必须终结。

Q: Sir, what is thinking?

问：先生，什么是思想？

K: You asked me what is thinking, so my mind begins. Let's go into it a little bit. First I can say: I really don't know. Then we can begin to analyse, and say: It is response of memory. You ask me: What is my name? and I know, because I have repeated it so often, I tell you immediately.

克：你问我什么是思想，于是我的心智开始运作。让我们稍微探究一下。 首先我可以说：我真的不知道。然后我们可以开始分析， 并说：它是记忆的反应。 你问我：我的名字是什么？ 我知道，因为我经常重复它，我立刻告诉你。

Now, you ask me a little more complex question, it takes a time interval. In that time interval, the mind is in operation to find the answer.

现在，你问我一个稍微复杂一点的问题，这需要一个时间间隔。 在那个时间间隔中，心智在运作以找到答案。

But if you ask me something which I don't know, which nobody knows, Hmm? Which no book or philosophy answered it, then I can only say "I don't know."

但是如果你问我一些我不知道、没有人知道的事情，嗯？ 没有哪本书或哪种哲学回答过它，那么我只能说“我不知道”。

Q: You pose then a significant question and a significant answer.

问：那么你提出了一个重大的问题和重大的答案。

K: I really don't know. Now, when I say "I don't know." I really mean I don't know. That means I'm not waiting for an answer, or expecting someone to answer me, or looking for an answer, which means my mind is completely alert, but I'm not looking, because I don't know where to look, or to whom to ask. Now, in that state, I begin to discover, because that state is real freedom.

克：我真的不知道。 现在，当我说“我不知道”时，我真的意思是不知道。 那意味着我没有在等待一个答案，没有期待别人回答我，也没有在寻找答案， 这意味着我的心智是完全警觉的，但我没有在寻找，因为我不知道该往哪里看，也不知道该问谁。 在那种状态下，我开始发现，因为那种状态是真正的自由。

Such a mind is the religious mind - no longer seeking, no longer demanding experiences, he's not caught in visions. And such a mind has an activity totally different, at a different dimension, which thought can never possibly reach.

这样的心智就是宗教心智 —— 不再寻求，不再要求体验，他不会被幻象所困。 这样的心智拥有一种完全不同的活动，在另一个维度上，那是思想永远无法触及的。

Thought has a place, very small place, but, when one realises that, thought has no place at all. which doesn't mean you live on ugly little sentiments, emotions. So one can function normally, healthily, sanely in this world with a mind that is not cluttered up by thought. And it is only such a mind, the religious mind, that can know something beyond all the imaginations and structure of man's hope.

思想有一个位置，一个非常小的位置，但是当一个人意识到这一点时，思想就根本没有位置了 —— 这并不意味着你活在丑陋的小情绪和情感中。 因此一个人可以正常、健康、清醒地在这个世界上运作，带着一个不被思想塞满的心智。 而只有这样的心智，宗教心智，才能知晓超越人类所有想象和希望结构之外的东西。

K: There is no perfect society, And society doesn't want man to be free. Q: society does not want man to be free.

克：没有完美的社会，而且社会不想要人自由。 问：社会不想要人自由。

K: Because freedom means, according to social, freedom means disorder, revolt means disorder, revolution means disorder. So society forbids that.

克：因为自由在社会看来意味着混乱，反抗意味着混乱，革命意味着混乱。所以社会禁止这些。

But man is always seeking freedom, but freedom merely outwardly, in relation to the social structure. Therefore he is in revolt against society, but not revolt against the inner psychological structure - which has created the society, I don't know...

但人总是在寻求自由，但只是外在的、与社会结构相关的自由。 因此他反抗社会，但并不反抗内在的心理结构 —— 正是这个结构创造了社会，我不确定……

Q: Yes. Therefore the genuine radical, is the revolution occurs within the human being.

问：是的。因此真正的革命者是革命发生在人的内部。

K: Within the skin rather than within the framework of social order.

克：是在皮肤之内，而不是在社会秩序的框架之内。

We are taking a journey together into the whole psychological structure of man. Because in the understanding of that structure, and the meaning of it, we can then, perhaps, bring about a change in society. And society, God knows, needs a total change, a total revolution.

我们正在一起进入人类整个心理结构的旅程。 因为只有理解了那个结构及其意义，我们或许才能带来社会的改变。 而社会，天知道，需要彻底的改变，彻底的革命。

K: All similarity should be distrusted. You know what I mean? Q: Yes.

克：所有相似之处都应当被怀疑。你明白我的意思吗？ 问：是的。

K: So, you know I mean? psychologically, man has built this extraordinary structure called society, because inwardly, he is that; and but outwardly, he has laid down laws how to control that. but inwardly, we haven't... Q: Yes. I follow. K: Inwardly we are just wild!

克：所以你明白我的意思？ 心理上，人类建造了这个叫做社会的非凡结构，因为内在地，他就是那个结构； 而外在地，他制定了"如何去控制它"的法律。 但在内心里，我们还没有…… 问：是的，我明白。 克：内在地，我们简直是野性未驯！

Q: It seem to me that society and the individual's inner make-up. that a society and the individual's inner make-up can be governed by quite different laws. they can be two quite different things, And I know much less about the laws that may govern an individual inwardly than I do about the laws of society. K: Quite, quite, naturally.

问：在我看来，社会与个人的内在构造，它们可以由完全不同的法则所支配。 它们可以是两个截然不同的东西。 对于可能支配个人内在的法则，我了解的远不如我对社会法则了解的多。 克：没错，没错，自然如此。

Q: And yet at the same time, from what little I know about the laws that govern society, I find I have a profond pessimism in respect to creating a new society.

问：但与此同时， 根据我对支配社会的法则那一点点了解，我发现自己在创造一个新社会方面深感悲观。

K: Quite, quite. Sir, that's why the problem is not changing society at all. And we always go off, talking about changing society, good society, great society and all that. I think the real problem is: Can there be a real mutation in the human mind? That is the real question. When that takes place, society will look after itself.

克：没错，没错。先生，这就是为什么问题根本不在于改变社会。 我们总是跑偏，谈论改变社会、好社会、伟大社会等等。 我认为真正的问题是：人类的心智能否发生真正的突变？ 那才是真正的问题。当那发生时，社会会自己照顾自己。

Q: It is as if the human society may have evolved, but the human being as such has not. K: has hardly evolved. And that, of course, we can brings up the problem: is there evolution psychologically? Not outwardly, there is, but psychologically, is there such thing as evolution? that is, becoming better, changing from this to that, or creating an inward perfection? All that implies time. And time is essentially, through time, you can't possibly change the psychological factor.

问：仿佛人类社会可能已经进化了，但人类本身却没有。 克：几乎没有进化。而这，当然，引出了一个问题：心理上存在进化吗？ 外在的进化是存在的，但心理上，存在进化这样的事情吗？ 也就是变得更好、从此变为彼、或者创造一种内在的完美？ 所有这些都意味着时间。 而时间，本质上，通过时间，你是不可能改变心理因素的。

Q: No. K: So, if one can put away all idea of gradual revolution inwardly, then we have to face the fact, what is inwardly, each minute. and see if that fact, if what is cannot absolutely be eliminated, immediately. That is the real question. I don't know...

问：不能。 克：所以，如果一个人能够摒弃所有关于内在渐进式革命的想法， 那么我们就必须面对事实，面对每一刻内在的实然。 并且看到那个事实，看看实然是否能当下被彻底消除。 那才是真正的问题。我不知道……

There is no end to talking, to words, to attending meetings, and reading, But attending meetings, reading, discussing, has very little value.

谈话、言语、参加会议和阅读是没有尽头的。但是参加会议、阅读、讨论，价值微乎其微。

If attending meetings, discussions and all the rest of it is merely a stimulus, then you are dependent, as people are dependent on LSD, on music, on pictures, on doing something. And as long as one is dependent, one is in conflict, one is in despair.

如果参加会议、讨论等等仅仅是一种刺激， 那么你就会依赖，就像人们依赖LSD、音乐、图片、做某事一样。 只要一个人有所依赖，他就处于冲突中，他就处于绝望中。

And one has to come, not through reading, to discover the whole process of knowing oneself. For the knowing of oneself is the beginning and the end of all misery.

而一个人必须 —— 不是通过阅读 —— 而是去发现自我的整个运转过程。 因为自知是一切痛苦的开始和终结。

Aside: This has been Program 2 in a series of 8 programs presenting Krishnamurti whose singularly challenging approach to the problem of our time places him outside of any simple category, like philosopher or religious leader. Subsequent programs will explore love, fear, conflict, the aging of the body, and death. In his next talk, Krishnamurti will speak of 'Freedom from Fear'.

旁白：以上是八集系列节目中的第二集，呈现了克里希那穆提的思想。 他以独特而富有挑战性的方式探讨我们这个时代的问题，这使他无法被简单地归入任何类别，如哲学家或宗教领袖。 后续节目将探讨爱、恐惧、冲突、身体衰老以及死亡。 在下一讲中，克里希那穆提将谈论“摆脱恐惧”。