We were saying how very important it is to bring about in the human mind a radical revolution. the crisis - and there are always crises in the world - especially now, it seems to me, is a crisis in consciousness - a crisis that cannot anymore accept the old norms, the old patterns, the ancient traditions, a particular way of life, whether is American way or the European or Asiatic way. And considering what the world is now, with all the misery, conflict, destructive brutality, aggression, tremendous advancement in technology, and so on. It seems to me, though man has cultivated the external world, and more or less mastered it, inwardly he is still as he was - a great deal of animal in him, he is still brutal, violent, aggressive, acquisitive, competitive, and he has built a society along these lines.

我们之前说过，在人类心智中带来一场彻底的革命是多么重要。 危机 —— 世界上总会有危机 —— 尤其是现在，在我看来，这是一场意识层面的危机 —— 一场不再能接受旧规范、旧模式、古老传统、某种特定生活方式（无论是美国方式、欧洲方式还是亚洲方式）的危机。 看看当今世界的状况：所有的苦难、冲突、破坏性的残暴、侵略、科技的巨大进步，等等。 在我看来，尽管人类开垦了外部世界，并或多或少地掌握了它，但在内心里，他依然如故 —— 身上还残留着大量的动物性，他依然残忍、暴力、好斗、贪婪、竞争，并且沿着这些路线建立了一个社会。

K: What do you think is happening to the whole American people as a whole? With the automation, with electronic brains... you know what I mean, the whole setup, what is happening and where are they going? You understand me? Q: I think an increasing number of them are beginning to ask themselves the question as to whether there may be alternative forms of human behaviour. because they...

克：你认为整个美国人民整体上正在发生什么？ 随着自动化、电子大脑……你明白我的意思，整个体制，正在发生什么，他们又将去向何方？你理解我的问题吗？ 问：我认为他们中越来越多的人开始问自己这样一个问题：是否存在其他形式的人类行为？因为他们……

K: And what do they do? Because by then, after asking questions and all the rest of it, they are almost finished, they are ready for the grave. And in Europe, the phenomenon there is the same as here, more or less. The production is more, perhaps, than in America even. Q: In Germany, West Germany. K: In Germany. and Russia is now doing the same. So, take all these parts, put them together - China, Japan, whole of Asia, India included, and then Europe, America, China. where is it all moving?

克：那他们做了什么？ 因为到那时，问了问题等等之后，他们几乎完蛋了，快进坟墓了。 而在欧洲，那里的现象或多或少和美国一样。产量甚至可能比美国还多。 问：德国也是如此，西德。 克：在德国。俄国现在也在做同样的事。所以，把这些部分都加起来 —— 中国、日本、整个亚洲（包括印度），然后欧洲、美国、中国 —— 这一切正走向何方？

What we are concerned with is the understanding of the whole process of life with its complexity, with its aggressions and miseries, with its sorrows and confusions and agonies. And to understand this vast field of life, which is a constant movement, one must not only hear the words, but also go beyond the words.

我们所关心的是理解整个生命的过程，包括它的复杂性、它的侵略与苦难、它的悲伤、困惑与痛苦。 而要理解这个广阔的生命领域 ——它是一个持续的运动 —— 一个人不仅必须听到话语，还必须超越话语。

Because words, the explanations are not the facts. But most of us are caught in words, and one must be free of the word - the symbol, the idea, the conclusion. Then one can look, then one can listen.

因为词语、解释并不是事实。 但我们大多数人都被困在了词语里，一个人必须摆脱词语 —— 摆脱符号、观念、结论。然后他才能看，然后他才能听。

And that act of listening is really a miracle. Perhaps it's the greatest miracle. when one can listen totally, without any defence, without any barrier - neither agreeing nor disagreeing, which doesn't mean the mind is open, on the contrary, the mind is extraordinarily alert then.

而那个聆听的行为真的是一种奇迹。也许是最伟大的奇迹。 当一个人能够全然聆听，没有任何防御，没有任何屏障 —— 既不同意也不反对（这并不意味着心智是开放的，相反，那时心智是异常警觉的）。

I hope when one is listening to this talk, or to the various other talks that are coming. One hears a lot of words, and hearing many words is not listening, it's like a noise among the leaves, it soon passes away.

我希望当一个人聆听这次演讲，或后面其他的各种演讲时，他听到了很多词语。 但听到很多词语并不是聆听，那就像树叶间的噪音，很快消散。

When we hear, we either accept or reject, or we translate what we hear according to our knowledge, our background. or we compare what is being said to what is already known. or we oppose one idea by another. All these characteristics of hearing denies the act of listening.

当我们听时，我们要么接受要么拒绝， 或者根据我们自己的知识、背景来翻译所听到的内容， 或者将所说的与已知的东西进行比较，或者用一种观念反对另一种观念。 所有这些听的特征都否定了聆听的行为。

The act of listening is entirely different, when one listens, there is no comparison, there is no acceptance or rejection. The quality of listening is attention. And when you attend totally, with your whole mind, with your heart, with your nerves, with your eyes and ears completely. in that state of attention, there is the act of listening,

聆听的行为是完全不同的。当你聆听时，没有比较，没有接受或拒绝。 聆听的品质就是专注。 当你完全地、用你整个心智、用你的心、用你的神经、用你的眼睛和耳朵全然专注时， 在那种专注的状态中，就有了聆听的行为。

And that act of listening puts away anything that is not true, When you give your whole attention to something, that is when you are completely listening, you listen to the totality of the thing. When you attend, there is no borders of inattention.

而那个聆听的行为会去除一切不真实的东西。 当你把全部的注意力给予某事物时，那就是你在完全地聆听，你听到了那件事的整体。 当你专注时，就没有疏忽的边界。

When you so intensely listen, you are listening to the birds, to the wind, to the breeze among the leaves. you listen to the slightest whisper that's about you.

当你如此强烈地聆听时，你听到了鸟儿、风声、树叶间的微风。你听到了周围最轻微的耳语。

So in the same way, when one listens, that very act of listening, brings about a total attention, in which you see the totality and the whole significance and structure of what is being said.

所以同样地，当一个人聆听时，那个聆听的行为本身就带来了全然的专注， 在这种专注中，你看到了所说话语的整体、全部意义和结构。

K: When you say "I can't", you block, you have blocked yourself. Q: But you can understand more and more of it. K: Not by blocking yourself.

克：当你说“我不能”时，你就堵塞了，你堵塞了自己。 问：但你可以越来越多地理解它。 克：不是通过堵塞自己。

Look, sir, if I say there is no God, Hmm? I've blocked myself, haven't I? Or if I say there is God. I've blocked myself. But if I say I really don't know, let's find out. then I've the energy to go into it, right?

看，先生，如果我说没有上帝，嗯？我堵塞了自己，不是吗？ 或者说有上帝，我也堵塞了自己。 但如果我说我真的不知道，让我们去弄清楚，那么我就有能量去探究它，对吗？

Now, so, don't let's say yes or no. don't let's take sides about it. Now, how would you see the totality of something, of life? You know, get a grasp, a feeling of it, a touch of it, a smell of it?

所以，现在我们不要说对或错，不要在这上面选边站。 那么，你怎样才能看到某事物、生命的整体呢？ 你知道，抓住它、感受它、触摸它、嗅到它？

Q: Well, as I said, by trying to take more and more of it. and understand more and more of it. K: Ah! You have no time.

问：嗯，就像我说的，通过试图一点一点地把握它，越来越多地理解它。 克：啊！你没有时间。

Q: I know, that's the problem. K: That's the problem, of course. Q: You're saying that you can't look at it that way. K: That's what I said at the beginning.

问：我知道，这就是问题所在。 克：当然，那就是问题所在。 问：你是说你不能那样看待它。 克：我一开始就说了。

I mean, if I take time, you know, it will be impossible. Follow it up, follow it up, step by step. You have approached this problem with the habitual tools, and you have eliminated these tools, not because you are prejudiced against them, but you see they won't answer. Now, when you have eliminated them, because they do not answer, your mind is sharper, isn't it?

我的意思是，如果我花时间，你知道，那是不可能的。 一步步地追踪它，追踪它。 你一直用习惯性的工具来处理这个问题，而你已经摒弃了这些工具， 不是因为你对他们有偏见，而是你看到它们无法解答。 现在，当你摒弃了它们，因为它们无法解答，你的心智更敏锐了，不是吗？

Q: If you're on the right track. K: Of course, you have eliminated them.

问：如果你在正确的轨道上。 克：当然，你已经摒弃了它们。

Q: Of what significance is hope and faith to living? K: What significance is hope and faith to living? I hope you won't think me hash if I say there is no significance at all.

问：希望和信仰对生活有何意义？ 克：希望和信仰对生活有何意义？ 我希望如果我说它们毫无意义时，你不要觉得我苛刻。

We've had hope, we've had faith - faith in church, faith in politics, faith in leaders, faith in gurus, because we have wanted to achieve a state of bliss, of happiness, and so on. And hope has nourished this faith. And when one observes through history, through our life, all that hope and faith have no meaning at all.

我们有过希望，有过信仰 —— 对教会的信仰、对政治的信仰、对领袖的信仰、对上师的信仰， 因为我们想要达到一种至福、快乐的状态等等。 而希望滋养了这种信仰。 当一个人通过历史、通过我们的生命来观察时，所有这些希望和信仰根本没有意义。

Because what is important is what we are, actually what we are, not what we think we are, or what we think we should be, but actually what is. If we know how to look at 'what is', that will bring about a tremendous transformation.

因为重要的是我们是什么，实际上我们是什么， 不是我们认为自己是什么，或者我们认为自己应该是什么，而是实际的实然。 如果我们知道如何去看待“实然”，那将带来巨大的转变。

K: Would you say, they are America or even California, there's something new stirring, or the same old pattern being repeated? Q: It seems to me to be the same old pattern. K: Oh. Say in California, you live in California, is the climate, being so marvellous here, Is it productive of some new state of human being, new human?

克：你会说，在美国甚至在加州，有什么新的东西在涌动，还是同样的旧模式在重复？ 问：在我看来还是同样的旧模式。 克：哦。比如说在加州，你住在加州，这里的气候如此美妙， 它是否产生了某种新的人类状态、新的人类？

We are the product of the society in which we live - the experience, the knowledge, and all the rest of it. And there is nothing original, we repeat, repeat, repeat. And to find out anything new, requires tremendous inquiry and meditation. You know? You don't just get it by, just coming to a meeting for an hour and thinking. One has to work tremendously hard.

我们是我们所生活的社会的产物——经验、知识等等。 没有任何原创性，我们重复再重复。 而要发现任何新的东西，需要巨大的探究和冥想。你知道吗？ 你不可能仅仅通过来参加一小时的会议并思考就能得到它。 一个人必须非常努力地工作。

You do work very hard to earn a livelihood, to go to the office every day. But this requires much more alertness, much more careful examination. And one is not... One doesn't have the energy, the patience or the interest. Because this is non-profitable, it doesn't bring you any profit, financial or any other way.

你为了谋生、每天去上班，确实工作非常努力。 但这需要更多的警觉性、更仔细的审视。而人们并没有…… 人们没有精力、耐心或兴趣。 因为这是无利可图的，它不会给你带来任何物质或其他方面的利益。

Here is the question: I suffer, physically, psychologically. And I can do something physically. Psychologically, I don't know what to do.

问题在这里：我受苦，身体上、心理上。 对于身体上的, 我能做些什么。 而心理上的，我不知道该怎么办。

And not knowing what to do, I escape, or I go to somebody who will tell me what to do, or I put up with it, getting more and more and more bitter, dull, stupid, full of animosity, and all the rest of it.

由于不知道该怎么办，我就逃避， 或者去找能告诉我该怎么办的人，或者我忍受它， 变得越来越痛苦、迟钝、愚笨、充满敌意等等。

K: Without doing any of those things, can one look at that thing, neither enjoy it, nor pushing it away? Which means, can I look at it without any demand to overcome it, to justify it, to control it? just to observe it.

克：不做任何这些事，一个人能否看着那个东西，既不享受它，也不推开它？ 这意味着，我能否不带任何克服它、证明它、控制它的要求去看它？只是观察它。

Q: How is it possible to do what you say, even for a few seconds? K: how is it possible to do what I say for ... ? Q: I said, it would seem that I would have to start by doing it for a few seconds. K: Do it. Do it. Do it for a second. Do it.

问：怎么可能做到你说的，哪怕只是几秒钟？ 克：怎么可能做到我说的……？ 问：我说，似乎我必须先从做几秒钟开始。 克：去做。去做。做一秒钟。去做。

Q: how? K: You know, as I said the other day, the word 'how' is the most mischievous word, because somebody wants somebody else to tell you how to do it.

问：怎么才能做到？ 克：你知道，就像我前几天说的，“怎么”这个词是最麻烦的词， 因为有人希望别人告诉他怎么做。

Q: We have to be willing to continue to suffer. K: Sir, we suffer, Not willing to suffer - there is suffering. And we are asking: Can you look at it and remain with it? Be quiet with it. Neither accepting nor rejecting, just be quiet with it.

问：我们必须愿意继续受苦。 克：先生，我们受苦，不是“愿意受苦”——苦就在那里。 我们问的是：你能看着它并与它待在一起吗？ 与它安静地待在一起。既不接受也不拒绝，只是与它安静地待在一起。

Q: Doesn't this require extensive meditation? K: Please, Doesn't this require great meditation? No, please do it.

问：这难道不需要大量的冥想吗？ 克：请问，这难道需要大量的冥想吗？ 不，请去做。

If one does it, you will find that you derive from that very observation a great energy, don't you? You are not dissipating any energy - it is there.

如果一个人去做，你会发现， 从那个观察本身你就会获得巨大的能量，不是吗？ 你并没有消耗任何能量——它就在那里。

Q: When the question, such as `what am I to do with myself?`, or `however the question may be framed?`, there is always someone there, whether it's the advertising man on the television, or the Zen master to... K: Tell you what to do Q: to give him, hmm, you know, a set of answers, and somebody follows them and nothing happens. Because there is nothing in this culture that we are talking about that prompts people to listen, really to come into relation with themselves in a tough minded way.

问：当问题出现时，比如“我自己该怎么办？”或者“无论问题如何表述”， 总有某个人在那里，无论是电视上的广告人，还是禅宗大师…… 克：告诉你该怎么做。 问：给他，嗯，你知道，一套答案，然后有人遵循它们，却什么也没发生。 因为在我们谈论的这种文化中，没有任何东西能促使人们去聆听， 去以一种坚韧的方式, 真正地与自身建立联系。

K: This is a young nation, you follow what I mean? Q: A young nation. K: A mixture of extraordinary thoughts, feelings and cultures. I should have thought they would produce something, you know?

克：这是一个年轻的国家，你明白我的意思吗？ 问：一个年轻的国家。 克：一个混合了非凡思想、情感和文化的国家。 我原以为他们会孕育出一些东西，你知道吗？

Q: You don't know quite what will happen when this nation faces up to the external crisis. They never have. K: Would you say, she has reached immaturely, forced by circumstances, a pinnacle of maturity, and now declining? Q: This I would say yes. K: You would say that.

问：你不太清楚当这个国家直面外部危机时会发生什么。他们从未真正面对过。 克：你会不会说，她在不成熟的情况下，被环境逼迫着达到过成熟的顶峰，而现在正在衰退？ 问：我会说是的。 克：你会这么说。

When you are really faced with a problem of war, of famine, of death, of poverty and so on. you can't argumentatively discuss about them. One has to deal with them. One has to put one's teeth into them.

当你真正面对战争、饥荒、死亡、贫困等问题时，你不能只是争论性地讨论它们。 一个人必须处理它们。一个人必须咬紧牙关去解决它们。

And you can not artificially, intellectually have teeth to put into problems that are vital. So I hope when we ask questions and go into those questions. I hope they'll not be merely intellectual or curious, but serious enough to investigate for ourselves what lies behind these questions, and their import.

而且你无法人为地、智力地拥有“咬紧牙关”去解决重大问题的能力。 所以我希望当我们提问并深入探讨这些问题时，希望它们不仅仅是智力上的或出于好奇， 而是足够严肃，让我们自己去探究这些问题背后是什么，以及它们的重要性。

what is the problem? Hunger, lack of clothes, shelter, all that. Now, how is going to be solved? Not by a particular nation. As you and I can't solve, if we went to India, we couldn't solve it. No sovereign government is going to solve this. No Indian government is going to solve it. They can pretend, and they do. Hmm?

问题是什么？饥饿、缺乏衣物、住所等等。 那么，要如何解决？不能靠某个特定的国家。 就像你和我无法解决，如果我们去了印度，我们也无法解决。 没有一个主权政府能解决这个问题。没有哪个印度政府能解决它。 他们可以假装，他们也确实在假装。嗯？

So what is preventing the solution of this problem is nationalism - my flag, your flag, my country, your country and the division that takes place geographically, which is exploited by the politician.

所以，阻碍这个问题解决的是民族主义 ——我的国旗、你的国旗、我的国家、你的国家，以及地理上的分裂，这些被政客利用。

That is the factor, one of the major factors, of preventing the solution of starvation, of feeding the people. Now, science has means of giving food, clothes and shelter practically to everybody, hmm? It's not being done because you are a British, I'm an Indian or Russian. So it's a world problem, not individual or nationalistic problem.

这就是阻碍解决饥饿、养活人类问题的主要因素之一。 现在，科学有办法实际给每个人提供食物、衣服和住所，嗯？ 但没有做到，因为你是英国人，我是印度人或俄国人。 所以这是一个世界问题，不是个人或民族主义问题。

Q: All right. but How do you suppose that we overcome these nationalistic barriers? K: First, one has to be free of it oneself. Q: I don't see how I can... K: Wait, wait, wait.

问：好吧。但你建议我们如何克服这些民族主义障碍？ 克：首先，一个人必须自己从中解脱出来。 问：我不明白我怎么能…… 克：等等，等等。

One has to be free of it oneself neither American nor Indian nor... then get up and talk, shout, do anything, not for the little things, but for the major issues. Then perhaps you'll sow some seed that will take root. That's all.

一个人必须自己从中解脱出来，既不是美国人也不是印度人…… 然后站起来说话、呐喊、做任何事，不是为了小事，而是为了重大问题。 那么也许你会播下一些会生根的种子。仅此而已。

Now, if every human being, educated, cultured, who is really serious, wants to solve this problem, he will do something. Like war, We have accepted war as the way of life. All man has, throughout centuries. And to stop war, if one is concerned with the whole process of living, as a human being, then perhaps we will be able to solve this question of war.

现在，如果每一个受过教育、有教养、真正认真的人想要解决这个问题，他就会做些什么。 就像战争，我们已经接受了战争作为生活方式。这是整个人类几千年来一直如此。 而要停止战争，如果一个人作为人类，关心整个生活的过程，那么也许我们就能解决战争这个问题。

Q: Potentially, the society has solved the problem of food, clothing and shelter. Once you've solved those problems, what do you have to look... What else? K: I don't quite understand 'what else'. You know, do you mean what is beyond these three? Q: Yes.

问：从潜力上说，社会已经解决了食物、衣服和住所的问题。 一旦你解决了这些问题，你还得寻找……还有什么？ 克：我不太明白“还有什么”。你是说超越这三者的东西吗？ 问：是的。

K: Sir, what is man seeking, basically? Basically, he's seeking these three. Because these are absolute necessities, whether in California, India, Russia, anywhere else. So, beyond that, he says after satisfying that `let's seek something else, let's go after something else`. Hmm? Is that the way to begin? Is it bread first and then the other, or the other first and bread afterwards? I don't know if you...

克：先生，人类在基本层面寻求什么？基本层面，他寻求的就是这三样。 因为无论在加州、印度、俄国还是其他地方，这些都是绝对的必需品。 所以，在那之后，他说满足了这些之后“让我们去寻求别的东西，让我们去追求别的东西”。嗯？ 那是开始的方式吗？是先有面包再有其他，还是其他在先面包在后？ 我不知道你是否……

Q: I follow you. I believe. K: Yes. So, in getting bread we get lost, we get superficial. We get caught in the trap of amusement and religiosity. You know all that.

问：我明白你的意思。我相信。 克：是的。所以，在获取面包的过程中我们迷失了，变得肤浅。 我们陷入了娱乐和宗教虔诚的陷阱。你知道那些。

But if we were seeking - not seeking so much - if we were after something more than bread and butter, in the more included the bread and butter, then I think this problem would never arise.

但是，如果我们寻求的 ——不是那么急切地寻求—— 如果我们追求的是超越衣食之类的东西，而那个“更多”已经包含了衣食， 那么我认为这个问题就永远不会出现。

What we are trying in all these discussions and talks here, is to see if we cannot radically bring about a transformation of the mind - not accept things as they are, nor revolt against them. Revolt doesn't answer a thing. But to understand it, to go into it, to examine it, give your heart and your mind, with everything that you have, to find out a way of living differently. But that depends on you and not somebody else.

我们在所有这些讨论和演讲中所尝试的，就是看看我们能否根本地带来心智的转变 —— 既不是接受事物的现状，也不是反抗它们。反抗解决不了任何问题。 而是去理解它，深入它，审视它，付出你的心和你的头脑，付出你所有的一切，去找到一种不同的生活方式。 但那取决于你自己，而不是别人。

Because in this there is no teacher, no pupil, there is no leader, no guru, there is no master, no saviour.

因为在这里面没有老师，没有学生，没有领袖，没有上师，没有大师，没有救世主。

You have to, you yourself are the teacher and the pupil, you are the master, you are the guru, you are the teacher, you are everything. And to understand, is to transform what is. I think that will be enough, won't it?

你必须 —— 你自己是老师也是学生，你是大师，你是上师，你是老师，你就是一切。 而理解，就是转化实然。我想那已经足够了，不是吗？