K: I wonder if we could discuss this morning what perception means. Apart from what the traditionalists and the professionals and the commentaries have said, what does perception mean? What is it to perceive? Is it a mere intellectual process or is it visual perception or is it a combination of both? Is it a psychosomatic state or is it something entirely different? The mind takes in much more than the eye does. So when we talk about perception, what do we mean by that word? Is it an intellectual perception, a verbal conclusion, a verbal comprehension? Does the eye see in a linear or horizontal dimension? B: You mean the eye as the sense-organ here? K: Yes.

克：我想，在今天上午，我们可以讨论感知意味着什么吗？ 除了传统主义者、专业人士和评论家所说的之外，感知意味着什么？ 感知是什么？它仅仅是一个智力过程，还是视觉上的感知，或者，是两者的结合？ 它是一种身心状态，还是某种完全不同的东西？ 这颗头脑比眼睛所吸收的要多得多。那么，当我们谈论感知时，这个词是什么意思？ 它是一种智力上的感知，一种言词上的结论，言词上的理解吗？ 眼睛的视觉，是线性的，还是水平的？ 芭：你是指作为感觉器官的眼睛？ 克：是的。

SW: Is the perception of the eye, the visual, sensory perception of the eye not uniform? We come to this room, I see the design of the carpet. Very soon I am seeing and not seeing. The physical eye is also not seeing all in a uniform state. There must be some factor other than the contact of the object and the senses in the awareness of "I see". The first awareness of inattention comes to me that way.

斯：眼睛的感知，眼睛的视觉、感官知觉是不均匀的吗？ 我们来到这个房间，我看到了地毯的设计。我很快就看到了，然后就不看它了。 作为生理上的眼睛，也不是总处于一种均匀地看的状态。 在觉察到“我在看”的那一刻，除了对象和感官的接触之外，一定有某个因素。 当我第一次意识到疏忽的那一刻，就是那样的。

K: I have not come to that point. I am trying to understand what that word perception conveys. I am not speaking of attention and inattention. All that I know is that I see. There is visual perception. There is sensory perception. I see you sitting there. Then there is the image which sensory perception plus the intellectual capacity of thought holds. That is what we generally call perception, is it not?

克：我还没有走到那个地步。我试图理解感知这个词在传达什么。 我不是在谈论注意和疏忽。我只知道我在看。 有视觉上的感知。有感官上的感知。我看到你坐在那里。 然后是这个印象，它由感官上的感受和思想上的智力合成。 这就是我们通常所说的感知，不是吗？

A: What is the meaning of the word "perception"? K: To perceive: where does inattention or attention come into this? A: I see an object. Then there is an image of that object. Then there is the memory of that image. Then I see something else and again the whole process begins.

阿：“感知”一词的含义是什么？ 克：感知，在感知的途中，疏忽或注意从何而来？ 阿：我看到一个对象。然后，有那个对象的形状。接着，有了那个形状的记忆。 然后，我看其它的东西，整个过程再一次开始。

K: All the sensory impressions, the impressions that are recorded, the conscious and the unconscious, the various images, conclusions, prejudices, all that is involved in perception. Look, there is visual perception and the various images that perception, association, prejudices, have built up. And I see you and I have another series of images, and so thousands and thousands of images are recorded, taped and held in the brain cells. And when I meet you I turn on attention and the images emerge. This is what we call perception, is it not? This is the machinery that is in operation in the word "perception", is it not? This is the ordinary operational process of perception. I want to see. That is all I know. Where does the trouble begin? Now, what is wrong with it?

克：所有的感官印象，被记录的印象， 这些有意的和无意的，各种的形状、结论、偏见，所有那些，都涉及到感知。 看，有视觉上的感知和各种观念 —— 通过抓取、联想、成见被建立。 我看见你，而且我还有另外的一系列的印象， 有成千上万的形状被记录，被录制并保存在脑细胞中。 当我遇见你，我调动注意力，这些印象浮现。 这就是我们所说的感知，不是吗？ “感知”这个词，就是指这种运转机制，不是吗？ 这是感知的普通运作过程。我想去看。那就是我所知道的一切。 这个麻烦从哪里开始？现在，它有什么问题？

A: The factor of sensitivity and the varying degrees of sensitivity, are they not a vital element in perception? My perception of squalor is different from that of yours. Can you separate perception from the degrees of sensitivity? Perception is not the same to you and me. K: When I have all these accumulated images, conscious or unconscious, my mind is loaded with them. Where is the place for sensitivity?

阿：敏感性的因素和敏感性的变化程度，它们不是感知中的重要因素吗？ 我对肮脏的感知，与你对它的感知，两者是不同的。 你能将感知与敏感度分开吗？对于你和我来说，感知是不一样的。 克：当我拥有所有这些积累的印象，无论是有意的还是无意的，我的头脑就被它们装满。 哪里还有敏感的立足之地？

A: Perception is not a passive act of memory. There is always something new which is there with every new perception. With every new response, which I call perception, the factor of degree is inherent. I do not understand why and from where the degree comes, because ignorance is imponderable. B: Even this seeing is like a camera; it sees its shutters, not the object. A: I look through the idea; then there is no perception.

阿：感知不是一种被动的记忆行为。 在每一次新的感知中，总有新的东西。 并具有一个新的回应，我称之为感知，程度的因素（敏感度）是固有的。 我不理解为什么有这种程度，以及它来自于哪里，因为无知是不可估量的。 芭：甚至，这样的看就如同照相，只看见按下快门的瞬间，而不是这个对象。 阿：我透过观念去看；那么，就没有感知。

K: The mind which is crowded with impressions and information about the object, sees. The mind, the brain, the whole structure is never empty. It is full and through this burden it looks. It looks at you with its associations, with jealousy, pleasure, pain. What is wrong with that? R: I am never face to face. I see there is sensory perception, then the images, then the like, dislike; those are facts also. They are facts which I do not realize. K: They are facts, as much as the fact that you are sitting here. Then what takes place? Each time I see you through a screen. What is wrong with that? Is it not a natural process? SW: In that state I do not see at all.

克：这是一颗充斥着与对象相关的印象和信息的头脑，看。 这颗头脑，这个脑袋，这整个框架从来不是空的。它是满的，透过这些负担，它去看。 它带着它的联想、嫉妒、快乐、痛苦来看你。这有什么问题？ 拉：我没有面对面地看。我看到，有感官上的感知，然后有这些画面，然后是喜欢或不喜欢；这些也是事实。 它们是事实，尽管我没有意识到。 克：它们是事实，就像你坐在这里一样。然后，在发生什么？ 每一次，我都透过屏幕来看你。这有什么问题？这不是一个自然的过程吗？ 斯：在那种状态中，我根本看不到。

SW: How is there safety? Am I really safe? K: Do not question it yet. Look at it. Otherwise you would not know your name, you would not know how to go to Bangalore, recognize your husband or wife. In that tradition, knowledge, experience, conclusions, there is nothing new, therefore there is nothing disturbing, therefore there is the feeling of complete safety. That is absolutely right.

斯：怎么会安全？我真的安全吗？ 克：先不要质疑它。看它。 否则你不会知道你的名字，你不会知道如何去班加罗尔，认出你的丈夫或妻子。 在那个传统、知识、体验、结论中，没有什么新鲜事， 因此，没有什么令人不安的，因此，有一种完全安全的感觉。那是绝对正确的。

SW: There is nothing to disturb. K: Anything new is disturbing and as the brain cells need order they find order in the past. A: But to come back to your question, what is wrong with that? K: There is nothing wrong in that. I am enquiring into the nature of sensory, visual perception, into the operations of the brain, the mechanism of thought, and how the mind operates; there is safety in sensory perception, image, conclusion, the past. All that is tradition. In tradition there is safety: In the past there is complete security.

斯：没有什么可打扰。 克：任何新事物都是令人不安的，因为脑细胞需要秩序，它们在过去找到了秩序。 阿：但是又回到你的问题，那有什么问题？ 克：没有错。 我正在探究感官的本质，视觉的感知，大脑的运作，思想的机制以及头脑如何运作； 在感官的知觉、印象、结论、这个过去中，是安全的。 这一切都是传统。传统里有安全：这个过去里，有完全的安全。

SW: Security implies struggle. K: Security implies the sense of not wanting to be disturbed. I do not know if you have noticed it: the brain needs order. It may establish order in disorder which is neurosis. It needs order and therefore it will find order in disorder and become neurotic. See this? The brain demands order because in order there is security. SW: That is perfectly clear.

斯：安全意味着挣扎。 克：安全意味着不想被打扰的感觉。我不知道你有没有注意到它： 大脑需要秩序。 它可以在神经症的紊乱中建立秩序。 它需要秩序，因此它会在失序中找到秩序，并变得神经质。看到这点了吗？ 大脑需要秩序，因为在秩序中有安全。 斯：那是非常清楚的。

K: In tradition there is order. In continuity there is order. The brain seeking order creates security, a harbour where it feels safe. And K comes along with revolutionary ideas and tells you, this is not order, and so there is conflict between you and him. You reduce the new in terms of the old and there find safety, security. Why does the mind do this? The Russian revolution and the French revolution upset the whole established structure but soon the brain created order out of disorder, and there was an end to revolution. A: We have discovered something - that the moment I see something new which creates a disturbance, perception is the instrument by which I convert the new into the old.

克：在传统中有秩序。在延续性中有秩序。 寻求秩序的大脑创造出安全，一个让人感觉到安全的港湾。 K带来了革命性的想法，并告诉你，这不是秩序，所以你和他之间存在着冲突。 你用旧的来缩减新的，在那里找安全、保障。这颗头脑为什么要这样做？ 俄国革命和法国大革命颠覆了整个既定的结构 但是，很快，大脑就从失序中创造出秩序，革命就此结束。 阿：我们发现了某个东西 —— 当我看到这个新东西那一刻，它造成一种干扰， 感知就是我把新东西转化为旧东西的工具。

K: That is the biological process of the brain. It is a biological necessity for the brain, because in that it finds the most efficient way of working. A: Will you examine the inbuilt incapacity of the brain to see and distort the new? K: Wait, Sir. Unless I see that the brain cells themselves understand the danger of the past, the danger of seeking security in the past, the brain cells will not see anything new. If they see something new they will translate it in terms of the old. Therefore, the brain cells themselves have to see the immense danger of what they consider security in the past. A: Which means a total change.

克：那就是这颗大脑的生理过程。 它是大脑的生理需要，因为它找到了最有效的工作方式。 阿：你会检查大脑的内在缺陷吗，看它是如何扭曲新事物的吗？ 克：等等，先生。除非我看到： 脑细胞亲自理解这个过去的危险，在这个过去中寻求安全是危险的， 否则，脑细胞们不会去看任何新东西。 如果它们看到新东西，他们会用旧的东西来翻译它。 因此，脑细胞本身必须去看，它们所认为的安全，也就是这个过去，有巨大的危险。 阿：那意味着彻底的改变。

SW: There is a modified continuity in this process. This creates a feeling of progress. K: The moment you have knowledge it can be continued, modified, but it is still within the field of knowledge; the whole thing is there. What is wrong with this? SW: All that you say is fact. However, there is another factor. This is not the whole thing: There is something radically wanting in this. K: What is wanting in this? Go step by step. This is the structure. What is the something which is not quite right? Find out. I will show it to you.

斯：在这个过程中，有一个修改的延续性。这创造出一种进步的感觉。 克：当你拥有知识的那一刻，它可以被延续，可以被修改，但它仍然在知识领域之内； 整个东西都在那里。这有什么问题？ 斯：你说的都是事实。但是，还有另一个因素。 这不是整个东西：这里面有某个根本性的东西。 克：这里面缺什么？一步一步来。 这个结构。有什么不太对劲的地方？找出来。我将展示给你看。

SW: Yes, of course. K: Do not agree. "See." Can the brain cells seek security in knowledge, and know that in knowledge there is danger of division? A: Knowing that knowledge is necessary here.... K: And also knowledge is danger because it divides. SW: To see both at the same time is difficult. K: "See" it at the same time. Otherwise you will not "see" it.

斯：是的，当然了。 克：不要同意。“看。” 脑细胞们能在知识中寻求安全，并认识到在知识中存在分裂的危险吗？ 阿：认识到知识是必要的…… 克：同时，知识也是危险的，因为它在分裂。 斯：同时看到这两方面是很困难的。 克：在同一时刻“看”它。否则你会“看”不到它。

SW: There are two types of image-making. In technological knowledge also there is a recording, and that is also a form of image-making. A: I think we were using the word "image-making" where there is some emotional content. In the other it is not so. As an escape out of this, the projection of freedom comes. K: It knows in this there is no freedom and therefore it has to invent a freedom outside the prison. When you see the whole structure of knowledge, then it is all understood.

斯：有两种类型的图像制作方式。 在技术知识中也有一种录制，那也是一种图像制作方式。 阿：我认为我们使用“图像制作”这个词，是在某些包含了情感内容的地方。其它地方则并非如此。 为了摆脱这种情况，就产生了一种逃避，投射出自由的影子。 克：它知道这里面没有自由，因此它必须在监狱之外发明一种自由。 当你看到知识的整个结构时，它就被理解了。

A: There is a question which I want to ask: Is it that the mind has a capacity to verbalize something which it does not experience, but would like to experience? K: We have not yet finished, Sir. Psychological, technological, biological knowledge is included in the word "knowledge". I see, the mind sees, knowledge is divisive and unifying. In this is the bondage of time. But, the brain cells also know that in this there is no freedom, and they want freedom. In freedom may be the super-security. And that is why man has from immemorial times talked of freedom. But as freedom is not within the prison, man has always thought of freedom outside. And we are saying freedom is here, not outside, right?

阿：我想问一个问题： 克：先生，我们还没有说完，心理的、技术的、生物的知识都包含在“知识”一词中。 我看到，这颗头脑看到，知识在分裂和统筹。这就是时间的束缚。 但是，脑细胞们也知道，这里面没有自由，它们想要自由。 在自由中，可能有超级安全。这就是为什么人类从远古时代开始，就在谈论自由。 但是，由于自由不在监狱里，人总是在想外面的自由。 我们说，自由在这里，而不是外面，对吧？

SW: Desire for freedom, is it a biological characteristic? The desire for super-security is it also not biological? K: So, is there freedom in all the things which thought has built including the thought of freedom? Look at it. In this it cannot find freedom. So it says because thought has constructed this freedom within the prison, therefore freedom must be outside. SW: In other words is there freedom in knowledge? K: Is there freedom in the past? Knowledge is the past. Knowledge is the accumulation of a million years of experience. Does experience give freedom? Obviously not. So is there such a thing as freedom? SW: I do not know. I see freedom is not outside. It is a projection. And yet there is no freedom inside.

斯：对自由的渴望，是一种生理特性吗？对超级安全的渴望也不是生理上的吗？ 克：因此，思想所建立的这一切，包括自由的思想，这里面有自由吗？ 看着它。在这里，它无法找到自由。 所以，它说，因为思想在监狱里构建了这种自由，所以自由必定在监狱之外。 斯：换句话说，知识中有自由吗？ 克：这个过去有自由吗？知识是这个过去。知识是一百万年体验的积累。 体验能给人自由吗？显然不能。那么，有自由这样的东西吗？ 斯：我不知道。我看到自由不在外面。它是一个投影。然而，里面没有自由。

K: I do not know. I have always thought of freedom outside. All the religious books, practices, have thought of it over there. There may be absolute freedom here. I have got it: I know, the brain knows, thought is aware that it has created this prison. All that thought knows is that demanding security, it has created the prison. And it must have security, otherwise it cannot function. So thought enquires where is freedom? It seeks it somewhere where it is perceivable, where it is not projected, not formulated, not invented, where it is not the projection of the past which is still knowledge. Freedom must be somewhere.

克：我不知道。我一直关心外面的自由。 所有的宗教书籍，训练，都认为它在那里。这里可能有绝对的自由。 我抓住了它：我知道，这颗大脑知道，思想觉察到它创造出这座监狱。 所有的想法都知道，是这种对要求的安全，创造出这座监狱。 它必须要有安全，否则它将无法运行。 所以，思想询问到：自由在哪里？ 它在某个可感知到的地方寻找， 那里不是被投射出的，不是被公式化的，不是被发明的， 那里不是这个过去的投射 —— 也就是知识。 自由必定在某个地方。

A: Is it an act of perception? K: This is an act of perception. Visually I perceive you. Visual perception has created all this. It is this knowledge that has created all this. Knowledge and non-knowledge are still projections of thought. R: What is non-knowledge? A: We say all knowledge, the past is the present and we are thinking of the unknown as freedom.

阿：它是一个感知行动吗? 克：这是一种感知行动。在视觉上，我感知到你。视觉感知创造了这一切。 正是这种知识创造了这一切。知识和非知识，仍然是思想的投射。 拉：什么是非知识? 阿：我们说所有的知识，这个过去就是这个现在，我们把未知当成自由。

K: Therefore the unknown is the known. It is very simple now. This is the structure of the brain cells with their memories which are responsible for thought. This is the structure of thought. Thought says knowledge is necessary. Thought says, because you have questioned it, there is no freedom either. So what is freedom? Is there such a thing at all? A: We only see that whatever thought produces is not freedom. K: So, what does it say? Is there security in thought? Thought has created all this. Is there security in the very thinking itself? SW: It is thinking which has done all this.

克：所以，未知就是已知。现在，它很简单。 这是脑细胞们的结构及其它们的记忆，而记忆对思想负责。 这就是思想的结构。 思想说知识是必要的。思想说，因为你质疑了它，所以还是没有自由。 那么，什么是自由呢？到底有没有这样的东西？ 阿：我们只看到思想产生的东西不是自由。 克：那么，它说什么？思想中有安全吗？ 思想创造出这一切。思想在思考它自身时，有安全吗？ 斯：这一切都是思想做的。

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