21 THE GURU, TRADITION AND FREEDOM 上师、传统和自由

K: Cou1d we enquire - not only from the traditional point of view but also relate the who1e field of tradition to what we have been talking about, to see the divergence, the contradictions, the similarities and dissimilarities? And a1so see if there is anything new in what we are saying. Let us discuss this; question it back and forth. A: We might start with the four purusharthas - dharma, artha, kama and moksha. If we examine the traditional approach to living, we see that tradition begins with the fact that human existence has these four aspects and each of them is vital, essential for the development of understanding. K: Should we not begin with the meaning of it all? A: The fundamentalists started with the meaning of it all, with the four aspects. K: Should we not enquire what it all means - human existence, human sorrow, conflict? What does it all mean? How do the professionals answer this question?

克：我们能不能询问 —— 不仅从传统的角度， 而且与我们一直在谈论的所有的传统内容联系起来， 去看这种分歧、矛盾、相似和不同之处？ 同时，看看我们所说的是否有任何新的。让我们讨论这个问题；来回地质疑它。 阿：我们可以从四大般若波罗蜜多开始 —— 佛法、阿萨、卡玛和莫克沙。 如果我们检视传统的生活方式，我们会发现传统始于这样一个事实， 即人类的存在具有这四个方面，每个方面都至关重要，对理解的发展至关重要。 克：我们不应该从这一切的意义开始吗？ 阿：原教旨主义者从这一切的意义开始，从四个方面开始。 克：难道我们不应该探究人类的存在、人类的悲伤、冲突 —— 这一切意味着什么吗？ 专业人士如何回答这个问题？

SW: In the tradition, we find two clear directions. The orthodox direction which goes by verbal interpretation of facts and the breakaway tradition, as seen in Dattatreya and the yoga vasishtha. The seers who broke away, said "no guru", "We have discovered it for ourselves", "I will not swear by the Vedas", "the whole of nature, the whole world is my guru", "observe and understand the world". In Buddha also, there was a breaking away. His teaching represents the core of the breakaway pattern. Those who broke away were closely linked with life.

斯：在传统中，我们找到了两个明确的方向。 一种是通过对有关事实的阐述，这是一种传统方向， 另一种是脱离传统，如在达塔特雷亚和瑜伽瓦西沙中看到的那样。 脱离的先知说“没有大师”，“我们自己发现了它”，“我不会以吠陀经发誓”， “整个自然界，整个世界都是我的导师”，“观察和理解这个世界”。 在佛陀身上，也有一种脱离。他的教诲代表了脱离模式的核心。 那些脱离的人与生命息息相关。

If you read the yoga vasishtha, it says that the mind is full of thoughts, conflicts; and these conflicts arise because of desire and fear; unless you are able to resolve them, you cannot understand. It talks of negative thinking. Max Mueller and some others misinterpreted the word nirodha. The word does not mean suppression, it means negation.

如果你读瑜伽瓦西沙，它说头脑充满了思想、冲突； 这些冲突的产生是因为欲望和恐惧；除非你能够解决它们，否则你无法理解。 它谈到了否定性的思考。马克斯·穆勒（Max Mueller）和其他一些人误解了nirodha这个词。 这个词并不意味着压制，它意味着否定。

A great deal is said about gurus. The yoga vasishtha says that giving initiation and such other actions are meaningless. Awakening of the disciple is in right understanding and in awareness. That alone is the most primary responsible fact. These essentials are the core of the breakaway tradition. R: And yet there are many places in the yoga vasishtha where it says without a guru, you cannot find anything. A: Breakaway from what? If it is a breakaway from the social system, the breakaway tradition also continues the social system.

关于上师的说法很多。瑜伽瓦西沙说，给予灌顶和其他行为是没有意义的。 门徒的觉醒在于正确的理解和觉知。仅此一点才是最重要的负责任的事实。 这些要素是脱离传统的核心。 拉：然而，瑜伽瓦西沙中有很多地方说：没有导师，你什么都找不到。 阿：脱离什么？如果是脱离了社会制度，脱离了传统，社会制度还是在延续。

SW: To the problem of understanding, tradition gives a formal verbal approach. In the breakaway tradition, this is not so. The breakaway is not from society. Both these traditions exist. In the mathas or monasteries, they talked of the Vedas but what they said had nothing to do with life; there were others who related all that they understood to life. But whatever was said had nothing to do with the society. R: How is it that the guru tradition has become so important? K: Shall we discuss this question of guru? Shall we begin with that? What does the word "guru" mean?

斯：对于理解，传统给出了一种正式的言语上的方法。 在这脱离传统的情形中，这并非如此。脱离不是脱离社会。这两种是传统的方式。 在玛萨或修道院中，他们谈论吠陀经，但他们所说的与生命无关； 还有一些人将他们所理解的一切与生命联系起来。 但无论说什么，都与社会无关。 拉：上师传统为什么变得如此重要？ 克：我们要讨论上师的问题吗？我们从这个开始吗？“上师”这个词是什么意思？

SW: "Desika" is the right word, not guru. Desika means one who helps to awaken the disciple; one who helps the seeker to understand. The word means one who learns. R: The disciple is called shishya. Shishya is one who is capable of learning. SW: Guru means vast, beyond, great. K: The guru is one who is great, beyond, one who is profound, then what relationship has he to a disciple?

斯：“Desika”是正确的词，而不是上师。Desika的意思是帮助唤醒门徒的人； 一个帮助寻求者理解的人。这个词的意思是学习的人。 拉：这个弟子叫希什亚（shishya），一个有能力学习的人。 斯：上师的意思是浩瀚、超越、伟大。 克：上师是一个伟大的、超越的、深刻的，那么他和一个弟子有什么关系呢？

SW: In the Upanishads, it is one of love and compassion. The Upanishads maintain that compassion is the contact between the guru and the disciple. K: How has the tradition now become authoritarian? How has a sense of discipline, of following, of acceptance of whatever the guru says, how has that been introduced into the relationship? The authoritarian, compulsive, destructive relationship comes in the way of real thinking, it destroys initiative. How has this relationship come into being?

斯：在奥义书中，它是爱和慈。 奥义书坚持认为，慈是上师和门徒之间的接触。 克：到了现在，传统怎么变得专制了？ 如何有纪律感，跟随感，接受上师所说的一切， 这是如何将它引入到关系之中的？ 专制的、强迫性的、破坏性的关系阻碍了真正的思考，它摧毁了自发性。 这种关系是如何形成的？

SW: It is difficult to say. The two approaches must have existed for a long time. In one tradition, the guru is taken as a friend, as a person the disciple loves; in that the guru is not authoritarian at all. The other tradition exploits. It wants authority, followers. A: Swamiji's main point is that there has not been a homogenous stream. There is the outsider and the conformist. A non-conformist is one who rejects society; he is outside society. R: We come back again to your first question - what is it all about, apart from the question of gurus what is the fundamental answer to life? K: I wonder if we could find out. Could you dig into it? Could you dig everything out of me? You understand what I mean? You come to a well and you get water according to the size of your bucket; whatever vessel you carry, that amount of water you get. You have read a great deal of the ancient literature, you have practised, you have read what we have talked about. You are well-equipped from the traditional point of view, and you know what is happening in the world. Now, you and I meet. Dig out of me as much as you can. Question me about everything, from the beginning to the end. Question deeply as the conformist and as the non-conformist, as a guru, as a non-guru, as a disciple and as a non-disciple. It is like going to a well with tremendous thirst, wanting to find out everything. Do it that way, Sir. Then I think it will be profitable.

斯：很难说。这两种方法肯定已经存在了很长时间。 在一个传统中，上师被视为朋友，作为弟子所爱的人；因为上师根本不是专制的。 另一个传统则剥削。它想要权威，追随者。 阿：斯瓦米吉的主要观点是，没有同质流。 有局外人和墨守成规者。 不墨守成规的人是拒绝社会的人；他在社会之外。 拉：我们再回到你的第一个问题 —— 除了上师的问题之外，生命的根本答案是什么？ 克：我想知道我们能不能找到答案。你能深入研究一下吗？你能从我身上挖出一切吗？ 你理解我的意思吗？ 你来到一口井前，根据水桶的大小得到水；无论您携带什么容器，您都会得到多少水。 你读过大量的古代文献，你实践过，你读过我们所谈论的东西。 从传统的角度来看，你装备精良，你知道世界上正在发生的事情。 现在，你和我相遇了。尽可能多地从我身上挖出来。 从头到尾问我一切。 作为墨守成规者和非墨守成规者，作为上师，作为非上师，作为门徒和非门徒，要深入提问。 这就像带着极大的口渴去一口井，想要找出一切。 先生，就这样吧。那么，我认为这将是有利可图的。

SW: Then can I be absolutely free? K: Break all the windows, because I feel wisdom is infinite. It has no limits, and because it has no frontiers, it is totally impersonal. So with all your experience, knowledge and understanding of tradition and the breakaway pattern which also becomes tradition, with what you know and what you have understood, from your own meditations, from your own life, you come to me. Do not be satisfied by just a few words. Dig deep.

斯：那我能完全地自由吗？ 克：打破所有的窗户，因为我觉得智慧是无限的。 它没有限制，因为它没有边界，所以它是完全是与个人无关的。 因此，凭借您的体验，知识，对传统的理解，以及也变成了传统的脱离模式， 凭借着从你自己的冥想，从你自己的生命中所获的知识和理解，你来到我身边。 不要只满足于几句话。深入。

SW: I would like to know, how you came to it yourself? K: You want to know how this person came upon it? I could not tell you. You see, Sir, he apparently never went through any practice, discipline, jealousy, envy, ambition, competition, wanting power, position, prestige, fame. He did not want any of them. And therefore there was never any question of giving up. So when I say I really do not know, I think that would be the truth. Most of the traditional teachers go through, give up, practice, sacrifice, control; they sit under a tree and come upon clarity.

斯：我想知道，你自己是怎么遇到的？ 克：你想知道这个人是怎么遇到的吗？我不能告诉你。你看，先生， 他显然从未经历过任何实践、纪律、嫉妒、嫉妒、野心、竞争、想要权力、地位、声望、名声。 他不想要它们中的任何一个。因此，从来没有放弃的问题。 所以当我说我真的不知道时，我想应该是这个事实。 大多数传统的教师经历过放弃、实践、牺牲、控制；他们坐在树下，遇到了清明。

SW: Then, another thing I would like to ask is, in your teachings, sensitivity, understanding, passive awareness, are factors that must saturate one's living. How did you come upon this? A: You may have had nothing to give up and therefore no discipline, no sadhana, but what about people who have something to give up? K: You are asking how I came upon this? I really could not tell you. Why do you bother about it? What importance is it how I got it? SW: It is curiosity, it is joy. K: Let us go beyond that.

斯：那么，我想问的另一件事是， 在你的教诲中，敏感、理解、被动地意识，是必须渗透于一个人生命中的因素。你是怎么想到这个的？ 阿：你可能没有什么可以放弃的，因此没有纪律，没有修行，但是那些有东西要放弃的人呢？ 克：你是问我是怎么想到这个的？我真的无法告诉你。你为什么要为此烦恼？我如何获得它的重要性是什么？ 斯：是好奇心，是欢乐。 克：让我们超越那。

SW: The moment you say awareness, attention, sensitivity, one is so full of wonder, appreciation. How did you come to this? How is it that this man is able to talk like this? And when we analyse what you say, it is so scientific, rational and so full of meaning. K: You know the story of how the boy was picked up; he was born in the most orthodox Brahmin family; he was not conditioned by the tradition nor by any other factors through life - as a Hindu, as a theosophist. It did not touch him. First of all, I do not know why it did not touch him. A: This question which he asks may be put in another idiom. How did it happen that a person who was in the midst of an environment which laid maximum stress on phenomenal life did not get caught in that life?

斯：当你说覺知、注意、敏感時，一個人是如此充滿了驚奇、欣賞。你是怎么遇到的？ 这个人怎么会这样说呢？ 当我们分析你说的话时，它是那么科学，理性，那么充满意义。 克：你知道那个男孩是如何被捡起来的故事；他出生在最正统的婆罗门家庭； 他不受传统或生命中任何其他因素的制约 —— 作为一个印度教徒，作为一个神智学家。它没有碰到他。 首先，我不知道为什么没有碰到他。 阿：他问的这个问题可以用另一个成语来形容。 一个身处于花花世界，受到最大环境压力的人，怎么会不被困在那种生活中呢？

SW: K came by it. He is not able to explain but he talks and he uses certain terms and the whole logic of it is there; and it is a wonder to the listener how without anything he has come to it and yet there is logic. K: How is it that a man like K, not having read the sacred books, the scriptures of the east or west, how is it that not having experienced, given up, sacrificed, gone through the gamut of all this, how does he say these things? I really could not say, Sir. A: You gave the answer a minute ago; you said wisdom is not personal. K: But he says how is it that you got the wisdom without all this?

斯：K来了。他无法解释，但他说话，他使用某些术语，整个逻辑就在那里； 对于听众来说，这是一个奇迹，他怎么什么都没有，却有逻辑。 克：没有读过东西方的圣书、经文，怎么有像K这样的人？ 没有体验过，放弃过，牺牲过，没有经历这一切的方方面面，他怎么说出这些话？ 我真的无法说，先生。 阿：你刚才给出了答案；你说智慧不是个人的。 克：但是他说，没有这一切，你怎么能得到智慧呢？

SW: I am not asking how he came by it but in his talk there is such cogency, rationality, such perfect logical sequences. It comes and the listener finds beauty, joy. It is in his heart. K: When you say it has come because it is in his heart, I do not know how to put it. It comes. I do not know how; not from the heart or from the mind, but it comes. Or would you say, Sir, that it would come to any person who is really non-selfish? SW: Perfectly, yes. K: I think it would be the most logical answer.

斯：我不是问他是怎么来的，但在他的讲话中，有如此的连贯性、理性和如此完美的逻辑序列。 它来了，听众找到了美，欢乐。是在他的心里。 克：你说它来了，是因为在他心里，我不知道怎么说。它来了。我不知道怎么做； 不是来自内心或这颗头脑，但它来了。 或者，先生，你会说，任何真正不自私的人，它都会来吗？ 斯：完全可以，是的。 克：我想，这是最合乎逻辑的答案。

SW: Or is it that you saw the misery of mankind and then got it? K: No. To answer this question really properly, completely, one has to go into the whole question - there was that boy who was picked up; he went through all kinds of things - he was proclaimed the Messiah, he was worshipped, enormous amounts of property were given to him, he had a great following. All that did not touch him. He gave up land as he accepted land. There was that boy and he had never read philosophy, psychology, the sacred books and he never practised anything. And there was the quality of speaking from emptiness. SW: Yes, yes.

斯：还是你看到了人类的苦难，然后明白了？ 克：不是。要真正正确地、完整地回答这个问题，就必须进入整个问题 —— 那个被捡到的男孩；他经历了各种各样的事情 —— 他被宣布为弥赛亚，他受到崇拜，大量的财产被给予他，他有很多追随者。 这一切都没有触动他。他放弃了土地，如同他接受了土地。 那个男孩，他从未读过哲学，心理学，神圣的书籍，他从未练习过任何东西。 有这种从虚无中说话的品质。 斯：是的，是的。

K: You understand, Sir, there is never any accumulation from which he speaks. So when you ask such a question, "How do you say these things?," that involves a much greater question, which is, whether wisdom or whatever you would like to call it, can be contained in any particular consciousness or it lies beyond all particular consciousness? Sir, look at this valley, the hills, the trees, the rocks - the valley is all that. Without the content of the valley, there is no valley. Now, if there is no content in consciousness, there is no consciousness - in the sense of the limited. When you ask a question, "How is it that he says these things?" I really do not know. But it can be answered, that when it happens, the mind is completely empty. This does not mean that you become a medium. SW: I derive from this, that infinity is beauty, rationality, logic. It is full of symmetry in its expression. K: Sir, having said that which we just now said, what do you want to find out? You have capacity, you have read a great deal, you have knowledge, experience, you have practised and meditated - from there, ask.

克：你理解，先生，他说话从来就没有任何积累。 所以当你问这样一个问题时，“你怎么说出这些话？ 这涉及到一个更大的问题，那就是，什么是智慧，或者你想称呼它的任何名字， 智慧能被包含在任何特定的意识中吗，还是它超越了所有特定的意识？ 先生，看这个山谷，山丘，树木，岩石 —— 山谷就是这一切。没有山谷的内容，就没有山谷。 現在，如果意识中没有內容，就沒有意識 —— 在这有限的意義上。 当你问一个问题时，“他怎么会说这些话？我真的不知道。 但可以回答的是，当它发生时，头脑完全是空的。这并不意味着你成为一个媒介。 斯：我由此推导出，无限就是美、理性、逻辑。它的表达充满了对称性。 克：先生，刚才说了，你想知道什么？ 你有能力，你读了很多书，你有知识，有体验，你练习和冥想 —— 从那里开始，问。

SW: Consciousness is bondage. Only from emptiness can one have entry into it. K: So you are asking how can a human being empty the mind? SW: There is a traditional idea of the adhikari, the person who can learn. And the traditional idea is that there are levels or differences in the persons who can receive or learn. What he can learn, depends on that difference. There are three levels. In the orthodox texts, they are mentioned as sattva, rajas and tamas. Those who belong to the first category - sattva - can have understanding by listening to a teacher, of understanding. The rajas category have to listen and recollect when they face a problem of life. The tamas ones cannot learn because their minds are too gross. In order to make the mind subtle, there are many methods, upasanas. Yoga starts with breath-control, meditation, the standing on the head. Even then, they say the asanas are only meant as a cleansing. It is said, whatever you do, be passive, observe "what is".

斯：意识是束缚。只有从虚无出发，一个人才能够进入。 克：那么你问的是人要怎样才能清空头脑吗? 斯：有一种传统的关于 "学习者" 的概念，即指具备学习能力的人。 这种传统观点认为，人接受或学习的能力存在等级或差别。 我们能够学习的东西也有赖于这种差别。 存在三个等级。在正统的文献中，他们分别被称为 "纯质学习者"，"激质学习者"，"翳质学习者"。 属于第一类的纯质学习者，可以通过聆听老师的教诲而顿悟。 第二类激质学习者倾听教诲，而当他们面对生活中的问题时就需要回忆。 第三类翳质学习者不能学习，因为他们的头脑太迟钝了。 为了使头脑变得敏感，有许多不同的方法或瑜伽姿势。 瑜伽以呼吸控制，冥想和倒立为起点。 即使那样，他们也认为练习瑜伽姿势是进行净化的一种方法。这种方法主张: 保持被动，观察 "现状"。 克：所以你是问一个人怎么能清空头脑？ 斯：有一个传统的观念，即可以学习的人。 传统观念是，能够接受或学习的人存在着等级或差异。 他能学到什么，取决于这种差异。 有三个级别。在正统文本中，他们被称为sattva，rajas和tamas。 那些屬於第一类的人—— sattva —— 可以通过聆听上师而理解，理解。 rajas类别的，在面对生活问题时必须倾听和回忆。 tamas之类的，就学不了，因为他们的头脑太粗鄙了。 为了使头脑变得微妙，有很多方法，upasanas。 从控制呼吸、冥想、头部倒立的瑜伽体势开始。 即便如此，他们说体式只是为了净化。 是这么说的，无论你做什么，都要被动，观察“什么是”。

K: You say, as human beings are constituted, there are levels, gradations of receptivity. They are not through with the becoming process and for such people, is it possible to come upon this? SW: That is one part of it. The other is that with most people, there are moments of understanding. But they slip away. It is a constant struggle. What does one do? K: What is the question? SW: What is such a person to do? K: Knowing there are levels, is it possible to cut across these levels? A: Is that a question of time? SW: Can we cut across these levels or are there processes by which we can transcend the levels? R: Tradition says that a long process of time is necessary.

克：你说，人类是有层次的，接受性是有层次的。 他们还没有经历成为的过程，对于这样的人，有可能遇到这吗？ 斯：那是其中的一部分。另一部分是，对于大多数人来说，都有理解的时刻。但它们溜走了。 这是一场持续的斗争。一个人做什么？ 克：问题是什么？ 斯：这样的人该怎么做？ 克：知道有层次，有没有可能跨越这些层次？ 阿：这是时间问题吗？ 斯：我们能否跨越这些层次，或者是否有可以超越这些层次的过程？ 拉：传统上说，漫长的时间过程是必要的。

SW: I do not agree with that. R: One must have the competence to understand. A: I say my life is a life of becoming. When I come and sit with you, you say time is irrelevant. I say "yes" because it is clear, but I am back again in the field of time, effort, etc., and this thing which I feel I understand, slips away. K: The question is fairly clear. The question is that when I listen, I seem to understand and when I go away it is gone. And the other point is, how is one who is not bright, who is not rational, to break through his conditioning and come upon it? What is your answer to this? SW: My answer from experience, the traditional answer, let man do some type of meditation by which the mind is made much more alert.

斯：我不同意那种说法。 拉：一个人必须有能力理解。 阿：我说我的生活是成为的生活。当我来和你坐在一起时，你说时间无关紧要。 我说“是”，因为它很清楚，但我又回到了时间、努力等领域， 我觉得，我所理解的这种东西溜走了。 克：这个问题相当清楚。问题是，当我听的时候，我似乎理解了，当我离开时，它就消失了。 另一点是，一个不聪明的人，一个不理性的人，如何突破他的制约并遇到它？ 你对此的回答是什么？ 斯：我从体验中得到的回答，传统的答案是，让人做某种类型的冥想，使头脑更加警觉。

A: The point that it is not a fixed thing should be explored. K: I say my mind is confused, is disturbed, I do not understand. You tell me to understand by doing these things. So you have established understanding as a fixed point, and it is not a fixed point. SW: It is not a fixed point. K: Obviously. If it is a fixed point, and I am going towards it, there are other factors which enter in my journey towards it and these factors are going to influence me much more than the end. A: That end is a projection of the unknowing mind.

阿：它不是固定的点，这一点应该探讨。 克：我说我的头脑很混乱，很不安，我不理解。 你告诉我通过做这些事情来理解。所以你已经把理解确立为一个固定点，它不是一个固定点。 斯：它不是一个固定的点。 克：显然。如果它是一个固定点，那么我正在走向它， 还有其他因素进入了我的旅程，这些因素对我的影响将远远超过终点。 阿：这个终点是无知的头脑所投射出来的。

K: That way is not the way at all. First see it. It is not a fixed point, and it can never be a fixed point; therefore, I say that is a false thing altogether. Then as it is not the way, since you are denying the whole thing, you have wiped away a tremendous field - all practices, all meditations, all knowledge. Then what have I left? I am left with the fact that I am confused, that I am dull. Now, how do I know I am dull, how do I know I am confused? Only through comparison, because I see that you are very perceptive and I say, through comparison, through measurement, I am dull.

克：那条路根本不是路。首先看见它。 它不是一个固定点，也永远不可能是一个固定点；因此，我说这完全是一件错误的事情。 那么既然不是路，既然你否认了整件事， 你已经抹去了一个巨大的領域 —— 所有的修行，所有的冥想，所有的知識。 那我还剩下什么？我留下的事实是，我很困惑，我很迟钝。 现在，我怎么知道我很迟钝，我怎么知道我很困惑？ 只有通过比较，因为我看到你非常敏锐，我说，通过比较，通过测量，我是迟钝的。

I do not compare and I see what I have done through comparison. I have reduced myself to a state which I call dull through comparison, and I see that is not the way either. So I reject comparison. Am I dull then, if I do not compare? So I have rejected the system, a process, a fixed end which you have evolved as a means of enlightenment through time. I say comparison is not the way. Measurement means distance. SW: Does it mean, that this understanding is not a matter vitally connected with capacity at all? We started with capacity.

我不比较，我通过比较看到我做了什么。 通过比较，我已经将自己降低到一种我称之为迟钝的状态，我认为这也不是办法。 所以我拒绝比较。如果我不比较，那我是不是很迟钝？ 所以我拒绝了这个系统 —— 这是一个过程，在这个过程中，你随着时间的推移而演进，最终抵达一个固定的终点：觉悟。 我说比较不是办法。测量意味着距离。 斯：这是否意味着，这种理解根本不是一个与能力密切相关的问题？我们是从能力开始的。