Question: All religions have insisted on some kind of self-discipline to moderate the instincts of the brute in man. Through self-discipline the saints and mystics have asserted that they have attained godhood. Now you seem to imply that such disciplines are a hindrance to the realization of God. I am confused. Who is right in this matter?
问：所有宗教都坚持通过某种自律，可减轻人类的野蛮本能。 通过自律，圣徒和神秘主义者断言他们已经达到了神性。 现在，你似乎暗示这样的戒律是实现上帝的障碍。 我很困惑。在这件事上，谁是对的？
Krishnamurti: It is not a question of who is right in this matter. What is important is to find out the truth of the matter for ourselves - not according to a particular saint or to a person who comes from India or from some other place, the more exotic the better.
克里希那穆提：在这件事上，不是谁对谁错的问题。 重要的是自己找出事情的真相 —— 不是根据某个特定的圣人 或者对于来自印度或其他地方的人来说，越异国情调越好。
You are caught between these two: someone says discipline, another says no discipline. Generally what happens is that you choose what is more convenient, what is more satisfying: you like the man, his looks, his personal idiosyncrasies, his personal favouritism and all the rest of it. Putting all that aside, let us examine this question directly and find out the truth of the matter for ourselves. In this question a great deal is implied and we have to approach it very cautiously and tentatively.
你被夹在这两者之间：有人说纪律，另一个人说没有纪律。 一般来说，你选择更方便，更令人满意的： 你喜欢这个人，他的外表，他的个人特质，他个人的偏爱等等。 撇开这一切不谈，让我们直接研究这个问题 并亲自找出事情的真相。 在这个问题上，暗示着很多东西， 我们必须非常谨慎和试探性地处理它。
Most of us want someone in authority to tell us what to do. We look for a direction in conduct, because our instinct is to be safe, not to suffer more. Someone is said to have realized happiness, bliss or what you will and we hope that he will tell us what to do to arrive there. That is what we want: we want that same happiness, that same inward quietness, joy; and in this mad world of confusion we want someone to tell us what to do. That is really the basic instinct with most of us and, according to that instinct, we pattern our action.
我们大多数人都希望权威人士告诉我们该怎么做。 我们寻找指引的方向，因为我们的本能是安全，而不是遭受更多的苦难。 据说有人实现了快乐，至乐，随你怎样称呼， 我们希望他会告诉我们该怎么做才能到达那里。 这就是我们想要的：我们想要同样的快乐，同样的内在宁静，快乐； 在这个混乱的疯狂的世界中，我们希望有人告诉我们该怎么做。 这确实是我们大多数人的基本本能，根据这种本能，我们塑造我们的行动。
Is God, is that highest thing, unnameable and not to be measured by words - is that come by through discipline, through following a particular pattern of action? We want to arrive at a particular goal, particular end, and we think that by practice, by discipline, by suppressing or releasing, sublimating or substituting, we shall be able to find that which we are seeking.
那位上帝，那个最高的东西，不可命名的，不能用言语来衡量的 —— 那位能通过纪律，通过遵循特定的行动模式来实现吗？ 我们想要达到一个特定的目标，特定的目的， 我们认为，通过实践，通过纪律，通过压制或释放，升华或替代， 我们将能够找到我们所寻求的。
What is implied in discipline? Why do we discipline ourselves, if we do? Can discipline and intelligence go together? Most people feel that we must, through some kind of discipline, subjugate or control the brute, the ugly thing in us. Is that brute, that ugly thing, controllable through discipline? What do we mean by discipline?
纪律中隐含着什么？ 如果我们这样做，我们为什么要自律？纪律和智慧可以并存吗？ 大多数人觉得我们必须， 通过某种纪律，征服或控制我们内心的野蛮，丑陋的东西。 那个畜生，那个丑陋的东西，可以通过纪律来控制吗？ 我们所说的戒律是什么意思？
A course of action which promises a reward, a course of action which, if pursued, will give us what we want - it may be positive or negative; a pattern of conduct which, if practised diligently, sedulously, very, very ardently, will give me in the end what I want.
承诺奖励的行为方案， 一个行为方案，如果追求，将给我们我们想要的东西 —— 它可能是积极的，也可能是消极的； 一种行为模式，如果勤奋地，艰苦地，非常，非常热切地实践， 最终会给我我想要的东西。
It may be painful but I am willing to go through it to get that. The self, which is aggressive, selfish, hypocritical, anxious, fearful - you know, all of it - that self, which is the cause of the brute in us, we want to transform, subjugate, destroy. How is this to be done?
它可能很痛苦，但我愿意通过它来得到那。 这位自我，具有攻击性、自私、虚伪、焦虑、恐惧 —— 你知道，所有这一切 —— 那个自我，是我们野蛮的原因， 我们要改造、征服、毁灭。 如何做到这一点？
Is it to be done through discipline, or through an intelligent understanding of the past of the self, what the self is, how it comes into being, and so on? Shall we destroy the brute in man through compulsion or through intelligence? Is intelligence a matter of discipline?
难道要通过纪律来完成吗？ 还是通过理智的理解自我的过去，自我是什么，它是如何产生的，等等？ 我们应该通过强迫还是通过智慧来摧毁人类的野蛮？ 智慧是关于纪律的事情吗？
Let us for the time being forget what the saints and all the rest of the people have said; let us go into the matter for ourselves, as though we were for the first time looking at this problem; then we may have something creative at the end of it, not just quotations of what other people have said, which is all so vain and useless.
让我们暂时忘记圣徒和所有其他人所说的话； 让我们自己讨论这个问题，就好像我们第一次看到这个问题一样； 那么我们最后可能会有一些创造性的东西， 不仅仅是引用别人说过的话，那一切都那么的徒劳无益。
We first say that in us there is conflict, the black against the white, greed against non-greed and so on. I am greedy, which creates pain; to be rid of that greed, I must discipline myself. That is I must resist any form of conflict which gives me pain, which in this case I call greed. I then say it is antisocial, it is unethical, it is not saintly and so on and so on - the various social-religious reasons we give for resisting it. Is greed destroyed or put away from us through compulsion?
我们首先说，在我们的里面有冲突，黑与白，贪婪与非贪婪等等。 我贪婪，这会产生痛苦；为了摆脱这种贪婪，我必须约束自己。 那就是我必须抵制任何形式的冲突，这些冲突会给我带来痛苦，这种情景被我称之为贪婪。 然后我说它是反社会的，它是不道德的，它不是圣洁的等等 —— 我们为抵制它而给出的各种社会的、宗教的理由。 通过强迫，贪婪是被摧毁了，还是远离了我们？
First, let us examine the process involved in suppression, in compulsion, in putting it away, resisting. What happens when you do that, when you resist greed? What is the thing that is resisting greed? That is the first question, isn't it? Why do you resist greed and who is the entity that says, "I must be free of greed"? The entity that says, "I must be free" is also greed, is he not?
首先，让我们考察一下压抑、强迫、收起、反抗的过程。 当你这样做时，当你抵制贪婪时会发生什么？ 抵抗贪婪的这位是什么样子的？ 这是第一个问题，不是吗？ 你为什么抵制贪婪，谁在说“我必须摆脱贪婪”？ 说“我必须自由”的实体也是贪婪的，他不是吗？
Up to now, greed has paid him, but now it is painful; therefore he says, "I must get rid of it". The motive to get rid of it is still a process of greed, because he is wanting to be something which he is not. Non-greed is now profitable, so I am pursuing non-greed; but the motive, the intention, is still to be something, to be non-greedy - which is still greed, surely; which is again a negative form of the emphasis on the `me'.
到现在为止，贪婪已经付给他了，但是他痛苦；因此他说，“我必须摆脱它”。 摆脱它的动机仍然是一个贪婪的过程，因为他想成为他不是的样子。 不贪婪现在是有利可图的，所以我追求的是不贪婪； 但这种动机，这个意图，仍然是占据某种东西，占据不贪婪 —— 这当然还是贪婪； 这又是一种以否定的形式对“我”的强调。
We find that being greedy is painful, for various reasons which are obvious. So long as we enjoy it, so long as it pays us to be greedy, there is no problem. Society encourages us in different ways to be greedy; so do religions encourage us in different ways. So long as it is profitable, so long as it is not painful, we pursue it but the moment it becomes painful we want to resist it.
我们发现贪婪是痛苦的，原因有很多，都是显而易见的。 只要我们享受它，只要贪婪能带来好处，它就没有问题。 社会以不同的方式鼓励我们贪婪；宗教也以不同的方式鼓励我们。 只要它是有利可图的，只要不痛苦，我们就去追求它 但是一旦它变得痛苦，我们就想抵制它。
That resistance is what we call discipline against greed; but are we free from greed through resistance, through sublimation, through suppression? Any act on the part of the `me' who wants to be free from greed is still greed. Therefore any action, any response on my part with regard to greed, is obviously not the solution.
那种抵制就是我们所说的对贪婪的纪律； 但是，我们是否通过抵抗，升华，通过压制而摆脱了贪婪？ “我”想要摆脱贪婪的任何行为仍然是贪婪。 因此，我对贪婪的任何行动、任何反应，显然都不是解决办法。
First of all there must be a quiet mind, an undisturbed mind, to understand anything, especially something which I do not know, something which my mind cannot fathom - which, this questioner says, is God. To understand anything, any intricate problem - of life or relationship, in fact any problem - there must be a certain quiet depth to the mind.
首先必须有一个安静的头脑，一个不受干扰的头脑， 理解任何事情，尤其是我不知道的事情， 我的头脑无法探测的东西 —— 也就是这个提问者说的上帝。 理解任何事情，任何错综复杂的问题 —— 生命或关系，事实上，任何问题 —— 头脑必须有一定的安静深度。
Is that quiet depth come by through any form of compulsion? The superficial mind may compel itself, make itself quiet; but surely such quietness is the quietness of decay, death. It is not capable of adaptability, pliability, sensitivity. So resistance is not the way.
这种安静的深度是通过任何形式的强迫而来的吗？ 肤浅的头脑可能会强迫自己，使自己安静； 但这种安静肯定是腐朽的、死寂的安静。 它不具备适应性、柔韧性、敏感性。 所以抵抗不是办法。
Now to see that requires intelligence, doesn't it? To see that the mind is made dull by compulsion is already the beginning of intelligence, isn't it? - to see that discipline is merely conformity to a pattern of action through fear. That is what is implied in disciplining ourselves: we are afraid of not getting what we want. What happens when you discipline the mind, when you discipline your being?
现在，看到这需要智慧，不是吗？ 看到头脑被强迫而变得迟钝，已经是智慧的开始，不是吗？ —— 看到纪律只是通过恐惧而遵守一种行为模式。 那就是自律的含义：我们害怕得不到我们想要的。 当你管教你的头脑，当你约束你自身时，在发生什么？
It becomes very hard, doesn't it; unpliable, not quick, not adjustable. Don't you know people who have disciplined themselves - if there are such people? The result is obviously a process of decay. There is an inward conflict which is put away, hidden away; but it is there, burning.
它变得非常硬，不是吗；不灵活，不迅捷，不协调。 你不认识那些自律的人吗 —— 如果有这样的人？ 结果显然是一个腐朽的过程。 有一种内在的冲突被收起来，被隐藏起来；但它还在那里，燃烧着。
Thus we see that discipline, which is resistance, merely creates a habit and habit obviously cannot be productive of intelligence: habit never is, practice never is. You may become very clever with your fingers by practising the piano all day, making something with your hands; but intelligence is demanded to direct the hands and we are now inquiring into that intelligence.
因此，我们看到，纪律，即抵抗，只是创造了一种习惯。 习惯显然不能产生智慧： 习惯从来不是，实践从来不是。 通过整天练习钢琴，用手做一些东西，你可能会变得非常聪明； 但是需要智慧来指导双手，我们现在正在调查这种智慧。
You see somebody whom you consider happy or as having realized, and he does certain things; you, wanting that happiness, imitate him. This imitation is called discipline, isn't it? We imitate in order to receive what another has; we copy in order to be happy, which you think he is. Is happiness found through discipline? By practising a certain rule, by practising a certain discipline, a mode of conduct, are you ever free? Surely there must be freedom for discovery, must there not?
你看到一个你认为快乐或已经实现的人，他做了某些事情； 你，想要那种快乐，模仿他。这种模仿叫做纪律，不是吗？ 我们模仿是为了接受别人所拥有的； 我们复制是为了快乐，你认为他是。 快乐是通过纪律找到的吗？ 通过实践某种规则，通过实践某种纪律，一种行为方式，你还能自由吗？ 当然，必须有发现的自由，不是吗？
If you would discover anything, you must be free inwardly, which is obvious. Are you free by shaping your mind in a particular way which you call discipline? Obviously you are not. You are merely a repetitive machine, resisting according to a certain conclusion, according to a certain mode of conduct.
如果你要发现什么，你必须有内在的自由，这是显而易见的。 通过以一种你称之为纪律的特定方式来塑造你的头脑，你就有自由了吗？ 显然你没有。 你只是一个重复的机器， 根据某种结论，根据某种行为模式而进行抵抗。
Freedom cannot come through discipline. Freedom can only come into being with intelligence; and that intelligence is awakened, or you have that intelligence, the moment you see that any form of compulsion denies freedom, inwardly or outwardly.
自由不能通过纪律来实现。 自由只能通过智慧而产生； 当你看到任何形式的强迫，无论是内在的还是外在的，都拒绝自由的那一刻， 那个智慧就被唤醒了，或者你有那个智慧。
The first requirement, not as a discipline, is obviously freedom; only virtue gives this freedom. Greed is confusion; anger is confusion; bitterness is confusion. When you see that, obviously you are free of them; you do not resist them. but you see that only in freedom can you discover and that any form of compulsion is not freedom, and therefore there is no discovery.
第一个要求，不是作为一条纪律，显然，就是自由； 只有美德才能给予这种自由。 贪婪是困惑；愤怒是困惑；苦涩是困惑。 当你看到这一点时，显然你已经摆脱了它们；你不抗拒他们。 但是你看，只有在自由中你才能发现，任何形式的强迫都是不自由的， 因此没有发现。
What virtue does is to give you freedom. The unvirtuous person is a confused person; in confusion, how can you discover anything? How can you? Thus virtue is not the end product of a discipline, but virtue is freedom and freedom cannot come through any action which is not virtuous, which is not true in itself.
美德的作用是给你自由。 没有美德的人是糊涂的人；在困惑中，你怎么能发现任何东西？ 你能吗？ 因此，美德不是纪律的最终产物， 但美德就是自由，自由不能通过任何不是美德的行为来实现，这本身是不真实的。
Our difficulty is that most of us have read so much, most of us have superficially followed so many disciplines - getting up every morning at a certain hour, sitting in a certain posture, trying to hold our minds in a certain way - you know, practise, practise, discipline, because you have been told that if you do these things for a number of years you will have God at the end of it. I may put it crudely, but that is the basis of our thinking. Surely God doesn't come so easily as all that? God is not a mere marketable thing: I do this and you give me that.
我们的困难在于，我们大多数人都读过这么多书， 我们大多数人都肤浅地遵循了这么多纪律。 —— 每天早上在某个时间起床，以某种姿势坐着，试图以某种方式保持我们的头脑 —— 你知道，练习，训练，守戒律， 因为你被告知，如果你做这么做上几年，你最终会实现上帝。 我说得可能很粗略，但这是我们思考的基础。 上帝肯定不会那么容易就来访，对吗？ 上帝可不是超市的商品：我做这个，你给我那个。
Most of us are so conditioned by external influences, by religious doctrines, beliefs, and by our own inward demand to arrive at something, to gain something, that it is very difficult for us to think of this problem anew without thinking in terms of discipline. First we must see very clearly the implications of discipline, how it narrows down the mind, limits the mind, compels the mind to a particular action, through our desire, through influence and all the rest of it; a conditioned mind, however `virtuous' that conditioning, cannot possibly be free and therefore cannot understand reality.
我们大多数人都受到外部影响的制约， 通过宗教教义、信仰和我们自己内在的要求来达成某事，获得某事， 如果不从纪律的角度思考，我们很难重新思考这个问题。 首先，我们必须非常清楚地看到纪律的含义， 它如何缩小头脑，限制头脑，迫使头脑采取特定的行动， 通过我们的欲望，通过影响和其他一切； 一个受限的头脑，无论这种限制多么有“美德”，都不可能是自由的。 因此无法理解现实。
God, reality or what you will - the name doesn't matter - can come into being only when there is freedom, and there is no freedom where there is compulsion, positive or negative, through fear. There is no freedom if you are seeking an end, for you are tied to that end. You may be free from the past but the future holds you, and that is not freedom.
上帝，现实或你喜欢的称呼 —— 这个名字并不重要 —— 只有在自由的时候才能出现， 哪里没有自由，哪里就有强迫，无论是积极的还是消极的，通过恐惧。 如果你在寻求一个目的，就没有自由，因为你被那个目的绑住了。 你可能从过去中解脱出来，但未来却抓住了你，而那不是自由。
It is only in freedom that one can discover anything: new idea, a new feeling, a new perception. Any form of discipline which is based on compulsion denies that freedom whether political or religious; and since discipline, which is conformity to an action with an end in view, is binding, the mind can never be free. It can function only within that groove, like a gramophone record.
只有在自由中，一个人才能发现任何东西： 新的想法，新的感觉，新的感知。 任何形式的基于强迫的纪律都拒绝这种自由，无论是政治自由，还是宗教自由； 既然纪律是服从有目的的行动，是有约束力的，所以头脑永远不可能是自由的。 它只能在那个凹槽内发挥作用，就像留声机唱片一样。
Thus, through practice, through habit, through cultivation of a pattern, the mind only achieves what it has in view. Therefore it is not free; therefore it cannot realize that which is immeasurable. To be aware of that whole process - why you are constantly disciplining yourself to public opinion; to certain saints; the whole business of conforming to opinion, whether of a saint or of a neighbour, it is all the same - to be aware of this whole conformity through practice, through subtle ways of submitting yourself, of denying, asserting, suppressing, sublimating, all implying conformity to a pattern: this is already the beginning of freedom, from which there is a virtue.
因此，通过实践，通过习惯，通过一种模式的培养， 头脑只会获得它所想见的东西。 因此，它不是自由的；因此，它无法意识那不可估量的东西。 要意识到整个过程 —— 为什么在公众舆论面前，某些圣人面前，你不断地自律； 服从观念，无论是圣人的还是邻居的，这一切事情都是一路货色 —— 意识到这种服从的整体：通过实践， 通过微妙的方式屈服你自己，通过拒绝、断言、压制、升华， 都意味着服从一种模式： 这已经是自由的开始，从中有一种美德。
Virtue surely is not the cultivation of a particular idea, Non-greed, for instance, if pursued as an end is no longer virtue, is it? That is if you are conscious that you are non-greedy, are you virtuous? That is what we are doing through discipline.
美德肯定不是特定想法的培养，比如，不贪婪， 如果作为一个目的而取追求，就不再是美德，它是吗？ 也就是说，如果你意识到自己是不贪婪的，你有美德吗？ 那就是我们通过纪律所做的。
Discipline, conformity, practice, only give emphasis to self-consciousness as being something. The mind practises non-greed and therefore it is not free from its own consciousness as being non-greedy; therefore, it is not really non-greedy. It has merely taken on a new cloak which it calls non-greed.
纪律、服从、实践，只是在强调自我意识，我是某某人物。 头脑在实践不贪婪， 因此它没有脱离它所拥有的意识，这个不贪婪的意识； 因此，它并不是真正的不贪婪。 它只是披上了一件新的外衣，它称之为不贪婪。
We can see the total process of all this: the motivation, the desire for an end, the conformity to a pattern, the desire to be secure in pursuing a pattern - all this is merely the moving from the known to the known, always within the limits of the mind's own self-enclosing process.
我们可以看到这一切的整个过程： 这种动机、这种对目的的欲望、对模式的服从，这种通过追求某个模式而想要安全的欲望 —— 所有这一切都只是从已知到已知的移动， 总是在头脑自身的封闭过程的范围内。
To see all this, to be aware of it, is the beginning of intelligence, and intelligence is neither virtuous nor non-virtuous, it cannot be fitted into a pattern as virtue or non-virtue. Intelligence brings freedom, which is not licentiousness, not disorder. Without this intelligence there can be no virtue; virtue gives freedom and in freedom there comes into being reality. If you see the whole process totally, in its entirety, then you will find there is no conflict.
看到这一切，意识到这一切，是智慧的开始， 智慧既不是有美德的，也不是没有美德的， 它不能被拟合为美德或非美德的模式。 智慧带来自由，不是放荡，不是无序。 没有这种智慧，就没有美德； 美德给予自由，在自由中产生现实。 如果你完整地看到整个过程，在它的整体中，那么你就会发现没有冲突。
It is because we are in conflict and because we want to escape from that conflict that we resort to various forms of disciplines, denials and adjustments. When we see what is the process of conflict there is no question of discipline, because then we understand from moment to moment the ways of conflict.
这是因为我们处于冲突之中 因为我们想摆脱这种冲突， 我们才诉诸各种形式的纪律、否认和调整。 当我们看到冲突的过程是什么时，就没有纪律问题， 因为那时我们时时刻刻都理解冲突的方式。
That requires great alertness, watching yourself all the time; the curious part of it is that although you may not be watchful all the time there is a recording process going on inwardly, once the intention is there - the sensitivity, the inner sensitivity, is taking the picture all the time, so that the inner will project that picture the moment you are quiet.
那需要高度的警觉性，时刻注意你自己； 其中有令人奇怪的方面，虽然你可能不是一直保持警惕 一旦意图在那儿，就有一个向内进行的记录过程 —— 这种敏感，这种内在的灵敏，一直在拍照， 因此，内在的意愿就会在你安静的那一刻投射出那幅画面。
Therefore, it is not a question of discipline. Sensitivity can never come into being through compulsion. You may compel a child to do something, put him in a corner, and he may be quiet; but inwardly he is probably seething, looking out of the window, doing something to get away. That is what we are still doing. So the question of discipline and of who is right and who is wrong can be solved only by yourself.
因此，它不是纪律问题。 敏感永远不可能通过强迫而产生。 你可以强迫孩子做某事，把他冷落在角落里，他可能会安静； 但内心深处，他可能正在沸腾，盯着窗外，做某些事情来逃避。 那就是我们仍在做的事情。 因此，纪律和谁对谁错的问题只能靠你自己来解决。
Also, you see, we are afraid to go wrong because we want to be a success. Fear is at the bottom of the desire to be disciplined, but the unknown cannot be caught in the net of discipline. On the contrary, the unknown must have freedom and not the pattern of your mind. That is why the tranquillity of the mind is essential.
另外，你看，我们害怕出错，因为我们想成功。 恐惧是想要被纪律约束的欲望的老底，但未知不能被困在纪律的网中。 相反，未知必须拥有自由，而不是你头脑的模式。 那就是为什么头脑的宁静是必不可少的。
When the mind is conscious that it is tranquil, it is no longer tranquil; when the mind is conscious that it is non-greedy, free from greed, it recognizes itself in the new robe of non-greed but that is not tranquillity. That is why one must also understand the problem in this question of the person who controls and that which is controlled. They are not separate phenomena but a joint phenomenon: the controller and the controlled are one.
当这颗头脑意识到它是宁静的时候，它就不再是宁静的； 当头脑意识到它是不贪婪的，摆脱了贪婪时， 它穿着不贪婪的新袍子认出了它自己，但那不是宁静。 这就是为什么一个人还必须理解这个问题： 控制者和被控制者的问题。 他们不是单独的现象，而是一种联合现象：控制者和被控制者是一体的。