Question: I have listened to all your talks and I have read all your books. Most earnestly I ask you, what can be the purpose of my life if, as you say, all thought has to cease, all knowledge to be suppressed, all memory lost? How do you relate that state of being, whatever it may be according to you, to the world in which we live? What relation has such a being to our sad and painful existence?
问：我听过你所有的讲话，也读过你所有的书。 我最恳切地问你，如果，我生命的意图会是什么， 正如你所说，所有的思想都必须消逝，所有的知识都必须被压制，所有的记忆都得失去吗？ 你说的那种存在状态与我们所生活的世界之间， 你如何使两者关联？ 那样的一条生命与我们这种悲伤而痛苦的生命有什么关系？
Krishnamurti: We want to know what this state is which can only be when all knowledge, when the recognizer, is not; we want to know what relationship this state has to our world of daily activity, daily pursuits. We know what our life is now - sad, painful, constantly fearful, nothing permanent; we know that very well. We want to know what relationship this other state has to that - and if we put aside knowledge, become free from our memories and so on, what is the purpose of existence.
克里希那穆提：我们要想知道这种状态是什么，只有当所有知识，当这位识别者不存在的时候； 我们想知道这种状态与我们的日常活动、日常追求的世界有什么关系。 我们知道我们此刻的生命 —— 悲伤、痛苦、持续的恐惧，一切都不是永恒的； 我们非常熟悉那个。 我们想知道这另一个状态与那个有什么关系 —— 如果我们把知识放在一边，从我们的记忆中解脱，等等，存在的意图是什么。
What is the purpose of existence as we know it now? - not theoretically but actually? What is the purpose of our everyday existence? just to survive, isn't it? - with all its misery, with all its sorrow and confusion, wars, destruction and so on. We can invent theories, we can say: "This should not be, but something else should be." But those are all theories, they are not facts.
据我们现在所知，存在的意图是什么？ —— 不是理论上的，而是实际上的？ 我们日常生活的意图是什么？ 只是为了生存，不是吗？ —— 带着所有的悲惨，所有的悲伤和混乱，战争，破坏等等。 我们可以发明理论，我们可以说： “这是不应该的，而应该是别的某个东西。” 但那些都是理论，它们不是事实。
What we know is confusion, pain, suffering, endless antagonisms. We know also, if we are at all aware, how these come about. The purpose of life, from moment to moment, every day, is to destroy each other, to exploit each other, either as individuals or as collective human beings.
我们所知道的是困惑，痛，苦难，无休止的敌对。 我们也知道，如果我们还清醒的话，这些是如何产生的。 生命的意图，从这一刻到这一刻，每一天，都是互相毁灭，互相剥削， 无论是作为个人还是作为集体的人类。
In our loneliness, in our misery, we try to use others, we try to escape from ourselves - through amusements, through gods, through knowledge, through every form of belief, through identification. That is our purpose, conscious or unconscious, as we now live. Is there a deeper, wider purpose beyond, a purpose that is not of confusion, of acquisition? Has that effortless state any relation to our daily life ?
在我们的孤独中，在我们的悲惨中，我们试图利用别人，我们试图逃离我们自己 —— 通过娱乐，通过神灵，通过知识，通过各种形式的信仰，通过认同。 那就是我们的意图，有意的或无意的，是我们此刻的活法。 有没有一个更深刻、更广泛的意图，一个不是困惑的，不必猎取的意图？ 那种没有丝毫努力的状态与我们这条平常的生命有什么联系？
Certainly that has no relation at all to our life. How can it have? If my mind is confused, agonized, lonely, how can that be related to something which is not of itself? How can truth be related to falsehood, to illusion? We do not want to admit that, because our hope, our confusion, makes us believe in something greater, nobler, which we say is related to us. In our despair we seek truth, hoping that in the discovery of it our despair will disappear.
当然，那与我们的生命完全没有联系。怎么可能有呢？ 如果我的头脑是混乱的、痛苦的、孤独的，那怎么能与它本身无关的东西取得联系呢？ 真理怎么可能与虚假、幻觉相联系？ 我们不想承认那， 因为我们的希望，我们的困惑，使我们相信某种更伟大、更高尚的东西，我们说它与我们相关联。 在我们的绝望中，我们寻求真理，希望在发现真理时，我们的绝望会消失。
So we can see that a confused mind, a mind ridden with sorrow, a mind that is aware of its own emptiness, loneliness, can never find that which is beyond itself. That which is beyond the mind can only come into being when the causes of confusion, misery, are dispelled or understood. All that I have been saying, talking about, is how to understand ourselves, for without self-knowledge the other is not, the other is only an illusion.
所以我们可以看到一个混乱的头脑， 一个充满悲伤的头脑，一个意识到自己的空虚、孤独的头脑， 永远找不到超越它自身的东西。 超越头脑的东西要产生 只有当混乱、痛苦的原因被消解或被理解时。 那就是我一直在说的，在谈论的，如何去理解我们自己， 因为没有自我认识，那是不存在的，那种状态仅仅是一种幻觉。
If we can understand the total process of ourselves, from moment to moment, then we shall see that in clearing up our own confusion, the other comes into being. Then experiencing that will have a relation to this. But this will never have a relation to that. Being this side of the curtain, being in darkness, how can one have experience of light, of freedom? But when once there is the experience of truth, then you can relate it to this world in which we live.
如果我们能理解我们自己的整个过程，从这一刻到这一刻， 那么我们将看到，在清洁我们自身的困惑时，那一个产生了。 那么，体验那，就会与这有关系。 但这永远不会与那有任何关系。 在窗帘的这一边，在黑暗中，一个人怎么能体验到光明，自由呢？ 但是，一旦有了真理的体验，你就能把它与我们所生活的这个世界关联起来。
If we have never known what love is, but only constant wrangles, misery, conflicts, how can we experience that love which is not of all this? But when once we have experienced that, then we do not have to bother to find out the relationship. Then love, intelligence, functions. But to experience that state, all knowledge, accumulated memories, self-identified activities, must cease, so that the mind is incapable of any projected sensations. Then, experiencing that, there is action in this world.
如果我们从来不知道什么是爱， 却只是不断的争吵、受苦、冲突，我们怎么能体验到那种不属于这一切的那种爱呢？ 但是，一旦我们经历了那，我们就不必费心去找出这种关系。 那么，爱，智慧，作用。 但是要体验那种状态，所有的知识，积攒的记忆，自我认同的活动，都必须消逝， 那么一来，这颗头脑无法投射任何感觉。 那么，体验那，在这个世界上行动。
Surely that is the purpose of existence - to go beyond the self-centred activity of the mind. Having experienced that state, which is not measurable by the mind, then the very experiencing of that brings about an inward revolution. Then, if there is love, there is no social problem.
当然，那就是存在的意图 —— 走出头脑以自我为中心的活动。 体验过那种状态，那是无法用头脑测量的， 那么，这种体验带来一场内在的革命。 那么，如果有爱，就没有社会问题。
There is no problem of any kind when there is love. `Because we do not know how to love we have social problems and systems of philosophy on how to deal with our problems. I say these problems can never be solved by any system, either of the left or of the right or of the middle. They can be solved - our confusion, our misery, our self-destruction - only when we can experience that state which is not self-projected.
当有爱时，没有任何问题。 “因为我们不知道如何去爱 我们有社会问题和如何处理我们问题的哲学体系。 我说这些问题永远不能用任何制度来解决，无论是左派、右派或中间派。 它们能被解决 —— 我们的困惑、我们的悲苦、我们的自我毁灭 —— 只有当我们能够体验到那种不是自我投射的状态时。
Question: What do you mean by transformation?
问题：你所说的转变是什么意思？
Krishnamurti: Obviously, there must be a radical revolution. The world crisis demands it. Our lives demand it. Our everyday incidents, pursuits, anxieties, demand it. Our problems demand it. There must be a fundamental, radical revolution, because everything about us has collapsed. Though seemingly there is order, in fact there is slow decay, destruction: the wave of destruction is constantly overtaking the wave of life.
克里希那穆提：显然，必须有一场根本性的革命。 世界危机要求这样做。我们的生活需要它。 我们的日常事件、追求、焦虑，都需要它。 我们的问题需要它。 必须有一场根本的、彻底的革命，因为我们的一切都在崩溃。 虽然表面上有秩序，但实际上在缓慢的衰败、毁灭： 毁灭的浪潮不断压倒生命的浪潮。
So there must be a revolution - but not a revolution based on an idea. Such a revolution is merely the continuation of the idea, not a radical transformation. A revolution based on an idea brings bloodshed, disruption, chaos. Out of chaos you cannot create order; you cannot deliberately bring about chaos and hope to create order out of that chaos. You are not the God-chosen who are to create order out of confusion That is such a false way of thinking on the part of those people who wish to create more and more confusion in order to bring about order. Because for the moment they have power, they assume they know all the ways of producing order.
因此，必须有一场革命 —— 但不是一场基于想法的革命。 这样的革命只是想法的延续，而不是根本性的转变。 基于一个想法的革命会带来流血、破坏和混乱。 在混乱中，你不能创造秩序； 你不能故意制造混乱，并希望从混乱中创造秩序。 你不是上帝所拣选的，要从混乱中创造秩序的那位 某些人希望通过制造越来越多的混乱以建立秩序，这是一种错误的思考方式。 因为当他们拥有权力的那一刻，他们就以为他们知道生产秩序的所有方式。
Seeing the whole of this catastrophe - the constant repetition of wars, the ceaseless conflict between classes, between peoples, the awful economic and social inequality, the inequality of capacity and gifts, the gulf between those who are extraordinarily happy, unruffled, and those who are caught in hate, conflict, and misery - seeing all this, there must be a revolution, there must be complete transformation, must there not?
看到这场灾难的整体 —— 战争的不断重复， 阶级之间、民族之间无休止的冲突， 可怕的经济和社会不平等，能力和天性的不平等， 那些非常快乐、不慌不忙的人以及那些陷入仇恨、冲突和悲惨的人之间的鸿沟 —— 看到这一切，必需有一场革命，必须彻底转变，不必吗？
Is this transformation, is this radical revolution, an ultimate thing or is it from moment to moment? I know we should like it to be the ultimate thing, because it is so much easier to think in terms of far away. Ultimately we shall be transformed, ultimately we shall be happy, ultimately we shall find truth; in the meantime, let us carry on. Surely such a mind, thinking in terms of the future, is incapable of acting in the present; therefore such a mind is not seeking transformation, it is merely avoiding transformation. What do we mean by transformation?
这种转变，这种激进的革命，是终极产物，还是在每一刻？ 我知道，我们希望它会是终极的东西，因为它更容易从遥远的角度来思考。 最终我们将被转变，最终我们将快乐，最终我们将找到真理； 与此同时，让我们继续前进。 当然，这种从未来的角度来思考的头脑，在当下是无法行动的； 因此，这样的头脑不是在寻求转变，它只是在逃避转变。 我们所说的转变是什么意思？
Transformation is not in the future, can never be in the future. It can only be now, from moment to moment. So what do we mean by transformation? Surely it is very simple: seeing the false as the false and the true as the true. Seeing the truth in the false and seeing the false in that which has been accepted as the truth. Seeing the false as the false and the true as the true is transformation, because when you see something very clearly as the truth, that truth liberates.
转变不是在未来，永远不可能在未来。 它只能是现在，在每一刻。因此，我们所说的转变是什么意思？ 当然，它很简单：看见假即是假，真即是真。 看见虚假中的真，看见在被当作真理的假。 看见假即假，真即真，就是转变， 因为当你非常清楚地看到某个东西，就是真理，这个真理就是解放。
When you see that something is false, that false thing drops away. When you see that ceremonies are mere vain repetitions, when you see the truth of it and do not justify it, there is transformation, is there not?, because another bondage is gone. When you see that class distinction is false, that it creates conflict, creates misery, division between people - when you see the truth of it, that very truth liberates. The very perception of that truth is transformation, is it not?
当你看到某个东西是假的时，那件假的东西就消失了。 当你看到仪式只是徒劳的重复时， 当你看到它的真理而不为它辩护时，就有转变，没有吗？ 因为另一个束缚消失了。 当你看到阶级划分是假的，是它创造出冲突，制造出悲痛，分裂了人们 —— 当你看到它的真理时，那个真理就是解放。 对那个真理的感知，就是转变，它不是吗？
As we are surrounded by so much that is false, perceiving the falseness from moment to moment is transformation. Truth is not cumulative. It is from moment to moment. That which is cumulative, accumulated, is memory, and through memory you can never find truth, for memory is of time - time being the past, the present and the future. Time, which is continuity, can never find that which is eternal; eternity is not continuity.
当我们被如此多的虚假所包围时，每时每刻感知虚假就是转变。 真理是无法累积的。它是每一刻。 可累积的，被积攒的，是记忆， 通过记忆，你永远找不到真理，因为记忆从属于时间。 —— 时间就是这个过去，这个现在和这个未来。 时间，这个延续下来的东西，永远找不到永恒；永恒没有延续性。
That which endures is not eternal. Eternity is in the moment. Eternity is in the now. The now is not the reflection of the past nor the continuance of the past through the present to the future.
那持续存在的，不是永恒。 永恒在眼前。 永恒在此刻。 此刻不是这个过去的反映，也不是这个过去，通过这个现在延续到这个未来。
A mind which is desirous of a future transformation or looks to transformation as an ultimate end, can never find truth, for truth is a thing that must come from moment to moment, must be discovered anew; there can be no discovery through accumulation. How can you discover the new if you have the burden of the old? It is only with the cessation of that burden that you discover the new. To discover the new, the eternal, in the present, from moment to moment, one needs an extraordinarily alert mind, a mind that is not seeking a result, a mind that is not becoming.
一颗渴望一种未来的转变，或者把转变视为终极目标的头脑， 永远找不到真理，因为真理是某个时刻发生的东西，必须重新发现； 不可能通过积累来发现。 如果你有旧的负担，你怎么能发现新的？ 只有随着这种负担的消逝，你才能发现新的。 现在，要发现这种新，这种永恒，在每时每刻，一个人需要一颗异常警觉的头脑， 一颗不寻求结果的头脑，一颗没有成为的头脑。
A mind that is becoming can never know the full bliss of contentment; not the contentment of smug satisfaction; not the contentment of an achieved result, but the contentment that comes when the mind sees the truth in what is and the false in what is. The perception of that truth is from moment to moment; and that perception is delayed through verbalization of the moment.
一个正在成为的头脑，永远无法知道满足的完整的祝福； 不是自鸣得意的满足； 不是对取得的成果的满足， 而是当头脑看到什么是真理，什么是虚假时，出现的满足。 对那个真理的感知是每时每刻的； 这种感知被推迟，在言语化的时候。
Transformation is not an end, a result. Transformation is not a result. Result implies residue, a cause and an effect. Where there is causation, there is bound to be effect. The effect is merely the result of your desire to be transformed. When you desire to be transformed, you are still thinking in terms of becoming; that which is becoming can never know that which is being. Truth is being from moment to moment and happiness that continues is not happiness. Happiness is that state of being which is timeless.
转变不是一个目的，一个结果。 转变不是一个结果。 结果意味着残留，一个原因和一个结果。 哪里有原因，哪里就必然有结果。 这种效果只是你渴望被转化的结果。 当你渴望被转变时，你仍然在以成为的方式思考； 正在成为的，永远无法知道那新生的。 真理，每时每刻新，那被延续的快乐不是快乐。 快乐是无时间的生命状态。
That timeless state can come only when there is a tremendous discontent - not the discontent that has found a channel through which it escapes but the discontent that has no outlet, that has no escape, that is no longer seeking fulfilment. Only then, in that state of supreme discontent, can reality come into being. That reality is not to be bought, to be sold, to be repeated; it cannot be caught in books. It has to be found from moment to moment, in the smile, in the tear, under the dead leaf, in the vagrant thoughts, in the fullness of love.
只有当存在巨大的不满时，这种无时间的状态才能到来。 —— 不是找个借口去逃避的不满 而是没有借口，没有逃避，不再寻求满足的不满。 只有那样，在那种极度不满的状态下，现实才能产生。 这个现实不是要去买的，不是要去卖的，不是要去重复的； 它不能被书本抓住。 它必须每时每刻被发现， 在微笑中，在眼泪中，在枯叶下，在流浪的思绪中，在爱的充盈中。
Love is not different from truth. Love is that state in which the thought process, as time, has completely ceased. Where love is, there is transformation. Without love, revolution has no meaning, for then revolution is merely destruction, decay, a greater and greater evermounting misery. Where there is love, there is revolution, because love is transformation from moment to moment.
爱与真理没有什么不同。 爱，就是作为时间的思想活动完全消逝的状态。 爱在哪里，哪里就有转变。 没有爱，革命就没有意义， 因为那时，革命仅仅是毁灭、腐朽，越来越深重的悲惨。 哪里有爱，哪里就有革命，因为爱是每一刻的转变。