CONVERSATION WITH P. JAYAKAR AND A. PATWARDHAN 1982.12.18
与阿秋·帕特瓦当和普普尔·贾亚卡尔的对话 1982.12.18
Pupul Jayakar: Yesterday you were talking about reading the book of yourself, which is the book of mankind. And you asked a question: with what instrument will I look? Now this book is never complete, as you are reading you are creating it. And in the very observing of something the future is also being created. In this state of flux there are one or two questions which first have to be clarified. That is, what is the nature of what is seen? Because unless we are clear on the nature of what is seen the instrument which sees it can never be clear.
普普尔：昨天你说阅读自我这本书，就是阅读人类。 你提出了一个问题：我会用哪个工具来看？ 现在，这本书永远是不完整的，因为在你阅读的时候，你就在创作它。 在看的同时，未来也在被创造。 在这种不断变化的状态下，首先必须澄清一两个问题。 那就是，‘那被看到的’的性质是什么？ 因为除非我们清楚‘那被看到的’的性质， 否则，在看的时候所使用的那个工具，是永远不可能清楚的。
So can we go into it? This instrument and the nature. We have talked about 'what is' from the first time we met you, but what is the nature of this 'what is'?
因此，我们可以进入这个话题吗？这个工具和这个性质。 我们从第一次见到你的时候，就谈到了‘什么是’， 但是这个‘什么是’的本质是什么？
J K: I think if I may begin: the whole history of man from two million years, or forty thousand years, is part of our consciousness, is part of our story. We, as a human being, we are the whole history of man. I don't know if you would grant that. If you grant that then the instrument with which I can read this vast complex history, the only instrument I have is the action of thought. Thought is the only instrument I have. Just a minute, let me finish. And thought has built all the past accumulation, past experience, superstitions, beliefs, the tyrannies, the wars, and the human mind is the residue, the storehouse of all that. The various gods, the various rituals, the whole movement of man in time is in the background of every human being. If once you accept that, or see the fact of it, or refute it, then we can start from there. Unless we are clear about that how to read the book of this immense complicated knowledge comes later. I hope I am making myself clear.
克里希那穆提：我想，是否我可以从这里开始： 追溯到两百万年或四万年前，人类的整个历史 是我们意识的一部分，是我们故事的一部分。 我们，作为一个人类，我们就是人类的整个历史。 我不知道你是否同意。 如果你同意它，那么我可以用来阅读这段浩瀚复杂的历史的工具， 我唯一拥有的工具就是思想的运动。思想是我唯一的工具。 给我一分钟时间，让我把它说完。 思想构造出了过去的所有的聚集物 —— 过去的体验、迷信、信仰、暴政、战争， 而人的头脑是所有这些残留物的仓库。 各种各样的神，形形色色的仪式，人类在时间上的整个运动， 都存在于每个人的背景中。 如果一旦你接受了这一点，或者看到这个事实，或者反驳它， 那么我们就可以从这儿开始。 除非我们弄清了这一点，否则，怎么来读这本拥有庞大而复杂的知识的书 —— 这一个问题，将被推后。 我希望我自己表述清楚了。
PJ: No. Obviously, Krishnaji, human heritage is my heritage.
普：不。很显然，克里希那吉，人类遗产是我的遗产。
K: Yes.
克：是的。
PJ: The two are not separate.
普：这两者是没有分开的。
K: No. But very few are willing to accept that even.
克：分不开。但很少有人愿意接受那一点。
PJ: No, Krishnaji, at one level I am sure most people will accept that.
普：不是的，克里希那吉，在某种程度上，我相信大多数人都会接受这一点。
K: I doubt it.
克：我对此表示怀疑。
PJ: The whole development of man, of human heritage, all that has taken place...
普：人类的整个发展，人类遗产，所有已经发生的事情……
K: Yes, yes.
克：是的，是的。
PJ: ...ideas which have formulated the brain, in a sense, they don't belong to a single person.
普：……在大脑中形成的思想，从某种意义上说，它们不属于一个私人。
K: Wait, wait, Pupulji. But if you asked any of them, any people, I am sure they wouldn't - first of all have thought about this. If they begin to think about it I am not sure they would see the fact of it. That is what I want - if I may - to establish that first. Then we can proceed, if you and Achyutji and a few of us see the truth of it, not the argument of it, not the verbal structure of it, but that we are, we carry with us all the time the vast human heritage. If that is so then we can proceed.
克：等等，等等，普普尔吉。 但是，如果你问他们中的任何一个，任何人，我相信他们不会 —— 首先要想到了这一点。 如果他们开始考虑它，我不确定他们会看到这个事实。 如果可以的话，那就是我想要首先确定这一点的原因。 然后我们可以继续，如果你和阿秋吉以及我们中的一些人看到了它的真相， 它不是作为一个争论的结果，不是作为一种文字上的陈述， 而是我们是，我们一直携带着这个巨大的人类遗产。 如果是那样，那么我们可以继续。
A. Patwardhan: Sir, but would you not concede that though all this may have been accumulated through thought...
阿秋.帕特瓦当：先生，难道你不承认那一点： 尽管这一切可能是通过思想积累起来的……
K: No, through time and thought.
克：不，是通过时间和思想。
AP: We get it through time and thought, when I say that I am the inheritor of the entire past of man, it is not a thought process or anything like that, it is not in that way. The way in which I am the inheritor of it all is not as verbalized thought, or...
阿秋：我们通过时间和思想来获得它， 当我说,我是整个人类的过去的继承者时， 它不是一种思想运动或类似的东西，它不是那样的。 我作为这一切的继承者的方式并不是那种字面表达的思想，或者……
K: Let us hold. Do you as a human being, having studied history of the world and so on, do you admit or see the truth that you are the result, and that you hold the whole human heritage and that vast complex book of the story of man?
克：让我们停一下。作为一个人类，在研究了世界历史等等之后， 你是否承认或看到了这个事实 —— 你是它的结果， 你拥有整个人类的遗产和那本关于人类故事的庞大而复杂的书？
AP: Right.
阿秋：是的。
K: Not right as argument.
克：不是作为一个辩论所得出的结论。
AP: No sir, it is a fact.
阿秋：不是，先生，它是一个事实。
K: It's a fact. Either that fact can be an argumentive fact, argumentive, a conclusion, a concept, or it is so. It is so in my blood, in my thoughts, in my life.
克：它是一个事实。这个事实要么是一个辩论性的事实， 一个争论性的，一个结论，一个概念，要么它就是事实本身。 它就在我的血液中，在我的思想中，在我的生命中。
AP: That is why I say, sir, if it is in my blood, and if it is in the whole being, then it is not a sequential purpose, it is a totality.
阿秋：那就是为什么我说，先生，如果它在我的血液中，如果它存在于整个生命中， 那么它就不是一个顺续性的意图，而是一个整体。
K: It is so.
克：它是那样的。
AP: It is a totality.
阿秋：它是一个整体。
K: Yes. Don't use the word 'totality', it is so.
克：是的。不要使用‘整体’这个词，它就是如此。
AP: It is so.
阿秋：它就是如此。
K: Now. We if we three at least see the truth of it then from there we can proceed. That is all my point. Not raise this question at the end of the discussion or dialogue that may take place.
克：现在。如果我们三个人至少看到了它的真实性，那么我们可以从那里继续前进。 那就是我整个的观点。 而不要在讨论结束后或讨论的时候，提出这个问题。
PJ: It is as much a truth as the fact that the human body has evolved - let me put it this way, is a universal...
普：它就像‘人类的身体已经进化’一样，是一个事实 —— 让我这样说吧，这是一个普遍的……
K: ...phenomena.
克：……现象。
PJ: ...phenomena.
普：……现象。
K: Of course.
克：当然。
PJ: It is in that context that I say I accept I am the human heritage.
普：正是在这种背景下，我说，我接受我是人类的遗产。
K: Right. Now from there proceed. I am - in me abides the whole story of man: his sorrows, his anxieties, his loneliness, his miseries, his happiness, his experiences, and so on and so on. This vast story.
克：对。现在从那里开始。我 —— 在我里面，保留了人类的整个故事： 他的悲伤、他的焦虑、他的孤独、他的痛苦、他的幸福、他的体验，等等。这个浩瀚的故事。
PJ: Yes.
普：是的。
K: Then the question, which you raised just now, which we raised the other day: what is the instrument with which I read that book?
克：那么，你刚才提出的问题，也是我们前几天提出的问题： 我读那本书所使用的工具是什么？
PJ: I have placed two questions.
普：我提了两个问题。
K: Yes.
克：是的。
PJ: Before even I go to what is the instrument with which I read that book, what is it that I read? Please let me. What is it that I read? I say I am...
普：在我问 ‘我读那本书的工具是什么’ 之前， 我读的是什么？请让我。我在读什么？我是说……
K: As you are reading it is changing.
克：当你在读的时候，它正在改变。
PJ: It is changing.
普：它正在改变。
K: As you are reading it is moving, living.
克：当你读的时候，它正在动，它是活的。
PJ: As I am reading the future is also coming into existence, or it is being projected.
普：当我正在读的时候，未来就变成了现实，或者它正在被塑造。
K: No, wait a minute. When you use the word 'future', the past - right - meeting the present modifying itself becomes the future.
克：不，等一下。当你使用‘未来’这个词，那个‘过去’ —— 对吧 —— ‘过去’与‘现在’相遇，通过修改那个‘过去’，变成‘未来’ 。
PJ: And the very thought that arises now contains in it the germ of the future.
germ 细菌 种子 生殖细胞
普：现在所产生的思想本身就包含着未来的种子。
K: Contains in it the germ of the future when there is no alteration.
alteration 变更 改动
克：当没有变更的时候，它里面就包含着未来的种子。
PJ: We start with what actually takes place: it contains the germ of the future. So first of all we have to be clear what is the nature of this 'what is' which we have talked about.
普：我们考察实际发生的：它包含着‘未来’的种子。 因此，首先， 我们必须弄清楚我们已经讨论过的这个‘是什么’的本质是什么。
K: What?
克：什么？
PJ: What is the nature of 'what is'?
普：‘是什么’的本质是什么？
K: No, you are going to something else, Pupulji. Forgive me if I point out something. If I am the totality of mankind, if I am the storehouse - I won't use the totality - if I am the storehouse of all human endeavour, and I am not aware of it, I don't know the nature of it, the content of it, and I want to study it, I want to learn, if it is possible, the nature of consciousness, not as mine, the consciousness of man which is the past.
克：不，你要走偏了，普普尔吉。请原谅我，如果我指出了某些东西。 如果我是人类的整体，如果我是这个仓库 —— 我不会使用这个‘整体’ —— 如果我是所有人类的努力的仓库， 我没有意识到它，我不知道它的本质、它包含的内容， 我想研究它，我想学习，如果可能的话， 意识的本质，不是我的，而是人的意识，也就是那个‘过去’。
PJ: You see the moment you say that, that I am reading the consciousness of man and not my consciousness...
普：你看，你那样一说， 我就正在阅读人的意识，而不是我的意识……
K: There is no 'your consciousness'.
克：不存在‘你的意识’。
PJ: Look what takes place. The moment you say you are reading the consciousness of man the attitude to that reading has undergone a total change.
普：看看发生了什么。 当你说，你在阅读人的意识时， 你对那种阅读的态度已经发生了整体性的改变。
K: A total change. That's right. Agreed. But if you insist, or if one is under the illusion that this consciousness is mine, separate from every other consciousness - which most people believe, or perhaps many of the psychologists believe - then we are moving in two different directions.
克：全变了。没错。同意。但是，如果你坚持， 或者如果一个人坠入那种幻觉： 这个意识是我的，与其他人的意识是分开的 —— 大多数人都相信那种幻觉，也许，很多心理学家们也相信 —— 那么我们正朝着两个不同的方向移动。
AP: Obviously.
阿秋：显然地。
PJ: But there seems a trap there.
普：但这里似乎有一个陷阱。
K: Yes, I know the trap there.
克：是的，我知道那里有陷阱。
PJ: The trap is we say we are the history of mankind but when we start investigating consciousness...
普：这个陷阱就是，我们说我们是人类的历史， 我们却开始调查起了意识……
K: Which is the storehouse of man.
克：也就是人的仓库。
PJ: ...but if you were objectively looking at the history of man...
普：……但是，如果你客观地看人的历史……
K: Which is the consciousness of man.
克：也就是人的意识。
PJ: ...you would read it one way, that book. If it was in twelve encyclopaedias you would read it one way.
普：……你会以同一种方式阅读它，那本书。 如果它在十二本百科全书里面，你会以同一种方式阅读它。
K: Ah, I'm not talking of encyclopaedias.
克：啊，我没有说百科全书。
PJ: But you would look at it one way.
普：但你会以同一种方式看它。
K: I know what you are saying.
克：我知道你在说什么。
PJ: The moment you see
it as something which sprouts within me, within my consciousness,
immediately my response to it is of a totally different nature.
sprout [spraut] 发芽, 抽条
普：当你说 它像某种在我里面、在我的意识中发芽的东西， 突然间，我对它的回应有一种完全不同的性质。
K: That's is what I was coming to naturally. If it is - if one sees one's consciousness as universal - if we can use that word, such a large word - that the consciousness which exists in me is the consciousness of all human beings - right - if you accept that after logical examination and investigation, then our whole activity of perception changes. Right?
克：当然了，那是我来了。 如果它是 —— 如果一个人看见他自己的意识，如同一个整体 —— 如果我们能用那个词，那么一个巨大的词 —— 在我里面存在的意识就是所有人类的意识 —— 对吗 —— 如果你通过逻辑检验和调查之后，接受这一点， 那么我们的整个认知活动就改变了。对吗？
PJ: Yes.
普：是的。
K: Now, do I regard this consciousness as mine? We must be clear on that point. And not your's or anybody's, it is my private ground, my private property.
克：现在，我是否认为这个意识是我的？在那一点上，我们必须清楚。 不是你的或其他人的，它是我私有田地，我的私有财产。
PJ: I would say that consciousness of mankind is revealed on my private ground.
普：我会说，在我的私有田地上，人类的意识显露了出来。
K: Now just a minute. Just a minute. You are saying, by understanding my consciousness I recognize that it is the consciousness of man, of all human beings. All right then, I go along with that. But I mustn't insist that it's mine.
克：现在，稍等一下。就一分钟。你是说， 通过理解我的意识，我认识到 它是人类的意识，是全人类的意识。 好吧，我跟上了那一点。但我不必坚持认为‘它是我的’。
PJ: The only thing which I can come with you so far is to say what is revealed, I cannot say that it is unique to me.
普：到目前为止，我只知道那显露出来的，是我的，也是人类的意识。 我不能这样说：‘对我来说，它是唯一的。’
K: Unique to you
克：对你来说，是唯一的。
PJ: It is part of the total consciousness of man.
普：它是人类意识的一部分。
K: But...
克：但是……
PJ: But it is revealed within my ground.
普：但它在我的田地上显露了出来。
K: I understand what you are saying.
克：我明白你在说什么。
PJ: And my relationship to it is very different.
普：我和它的关系是很不一样的。
K: I understand. Simply: are you saying in the understanding, in the observation, investigation of my consciousness, which I had thought to be separate from everybody else, in that investigation there is the discovery that this, what I have called my consciousness, is not my private ground, but it is the consciousness which is the rest of man.
克：我理解。简单地讲，你是不是在说：在理解的过程中， 在对我的意识进行观察、调查中， 我曾经的那个想法 —— 我的意识与每一个人的意识是分开的， 在那个调查中，我发现，那个被我称为 ‘我的意识’ 的东西，它不是我的私有田地， 它也是其他人的意识。
PJ: You see, sir...
普：你看，先生……
K: If we agree to that I agree. Go on.
克：如果我们同意那点，就继续。
PJ: No, because this is not so. You see the observing of that which arises has no place in it for this other state, that it is the consciousness of mankind.
普：不同意，因为事实并非如此。 你看，观察那个冒出来的东西，它并没有生长在别的田地上， 并没有表明它是人类的意识。
K: What is this? I haven't quite followed.
克：是什么？我还没跟上。
PJ: The observing of that which arises, after all you can't observe something which doesn't arise, the arising in consciousness of...
普：观察那个冒出来的东西， 毕竟你无法观测到那些没有冒出来的东西，在意识里发芽的……
K: ...loneliness.
克：……孤独。
PJ: ...loneliness and the observing of loneliness doesn't bring into it all these other factors that it is the loneliness of mankind. It is loneliness.
普：……孤独和对孤独的观察之中 并没有显示出它具有某种因素 —— 某种能表明它是人类的孤独。 它是孤独。
K: Take any factor, sorrow. In investigating my sorrow, my loneliness,
which I have been scrupulously taking in my courtyard, my private ground,
there is the discovery that it is the rest of man.
All men are lonely, all people suffer.
I discover something tremendous.
Not the little, the potty little consciousness which is mine.
The discovery that it is the whole of mankind is an enormous - you follow - perception.
scrupulous ['skru:pjulәs] a. 小心谨慎的, 细心的
克：从中取出任何一个因素：悲伤。在调查我的悲伤、我的孤独时， 我小心谨慎地把它从我的院子里、从我的私有田地上拿出来， 发现它属于其他的人类。 所有人都是孤独的，所有人都在受苦。 我发现了某个巨大的东西。 不是一点儿，不是属于我的那一点儿微不足道的意识。 发现它是属于全人类，是一个巨大的 —— 你跟上了吗？ —— 感知它。
PJ: What brings that perception about? Let us take it minutely through a microscope. Loneliness arises, or sorrow arises: there is an observing of that thing we call sorrow. What brings in this other element?
普：是什么带来了这种感知？ 让我们通过显微镜来仔细观察它。 孤独发芽，或者悲伤冒出： 有一个对我们称之为‘悲伤’的东西的观察。 在这个东西里，是什么带来了其它的元素？
K: Which element?
克：什么元素？
PJ: That the observing is not the observing of my petty sorrow, but the observing of the sorrow of mankind.
普：那种观察不是在观察我琐碎的悲伤， 而是在观察人类的悲伤。
K: No, I don't observe. Look, Pupulji: I have seen, and you all must have seen, it is not my seeing and therefore superior, I have seen wherever you go this factor is there: loneliness and sorrow are linked together. Go to America, it is there, in Europe it is there, in China, Russia, India, anywhere you go this factor is shared by all of us. To realize that, just a logical conclusion, even to admit to oneself how extraordinary this thing is shared by all of us, is a great - a change has already taken place.
克：不，我不观察。看，普普尔吉： 我看到，你们一定都见过， 它不是我看到的，不是那个高高在上的我看到的， 我看到：无论走到哪里，这个因素都存在：孤独与悲伤锁在一起。 去美国，它在那里；到了欧洲，它在那里； 去中国、俄罗斯、印度……无论你走到哪里，这个因素都是我们所有人共享的。 意识到那，只是作为一个合乎逻辑的结论，甚至只是承认它， 这个东西是多么的非凡，我们所有的人都享有它， 它是多么的巨大 —— 一种改变就已经发生了。
PJ: Yes.
普：是的。
K: Right?
克：对吗？
PJ: Yes. Can we proceed. I still go back to these two things.
普：是的。我们能否继续。我仍然回到这两个东西。
K: Let's go back.
克：让我们回头看。
PJ: One is if you say with what instrument...
普：其中一个是，如果你说用那个工具……
K: I'm coming to that a little later.
克：我稍后再来谈这个问题。
PJ: But I again ask, what is it that has to be observed?
普：但我再问一次，需要被观察的对象是什么？
K: I understand. I understand. I observe sorrow, loneliness,
sorrow, they are synonymous those two.
synonymous [si'nɒnimәs] a. 同义词的, 同义的
克：我理解。我理解。我观察了悲伤。孤独，悲伤 —— 它们是两个同义词。
PJ: Which are emotional responses to a situation.
普：是对某种情景的情感回应。
K: To a crisis.
克：对一场危机。
PJ: To a crisis, to a situation. I suddenly have a feeling of shrinking, a feeling...
普：对一场危机，一种情况。我突然有一种惊恐的感觉，一种感觉……
K: Yes. A feeling of some great loss.
克：是的。一种巨大的失落感。
PJ: And I look.
普：接着我看。
K: No, no. Not you, you don't look.
克：不，不。不是你，你别看。
PJ: That's what I want to come to.
普：我是想进去。
K: Let's be clear. Suppose one has lost a great friend, or a wife whom you really loved, or a person whom you loved, and there is the ending of that person: what has actually taken place there? The ending of all your relationship with that person. And suddenly realizing how utterly lonely you are because that has been the only relationship that has meant something. And suddenly that has gone. And there is the sense of loss. Now just hold a minute. Either I remain, either I remain with it, that is, I don't let thought or any other feeling interfere with that state. I don't want to escape from it, suppress it, analyse it. This is an extraordinary phenomena which I have suddenly discovered that with the loss of that person, or with the loss of some profound conclusion, concept which I have held most dear, suddenly that has been shattered. And then I realize what an extraordinary state of mind has come to an end. Right? Come to an end. I can invent a future, invent, but all those are inventions, but there is an ending without any future. Right? Now can this mind remain with that fact? Not as an observer observing the fact, the observer is the fact, the observer is that state, there is no division between the observer and the thing he is observing. Right? Am I making myself clear? He is the suffering, he is that ending. It's like a jewel that you are looking, holding. And the moment you want to part with it you have entered into a different state of consciousness, into a different state altogether.
克：让我们把它弄清楚。假设一个人失去了一个好朋友， 或者一个你挚爱的妻子，或者一个爱你的人， 那个人的生命结束了：那么，到底发生了什么？ 你与那个人的所有关系走到尽头了。 突然间，你意识到你是多么的孤独， 因为那是唯一有意义的关系。 突然之间，就那么去了。 有一种失落感。现在，停留一下。 要么我留下，要么我陪着它，那就是说， 我不让思想或任何其它感觉干扰那种状态。 我不想逃避它，压制它，分析它。 这是一个非凡的现象，我突然发现， 随着那个人的失去，或者随着某种深刻的结论、概念的丧失， 我最珍贵的东西，在一霎那，被粉碎了。 那么，我意识到 一种多么非凡的头脑的状态走到了尽头。对吗？ 走到这个尽头。我可以创作一个未来、发明， 但所有这些都是发明，但是，有一个没有未来的尽头。对吗？ 现在，这个头脑能停留在那个事实上吗？ 不是作为一个观者去看这个事实， 观者就是这个事实，观者就是那种状态， 观者与他所观察的事实之间没有区别。 对吗？我是否让我自己说清楚了？ 他就是那种痛苦，他就是那个尽头。 它就像一颗宝石，你正在观看它，握着它。 当你想与它分开的那一刻， 你已经进入了一种不同的意识状态，一种完全不同的状态。
PJ: I understand.
普：我理解。
K: Now the history of mankind is my history. Right? Right?
克：现在人类的历史就是我的历史。对吗？是吗？
PJ: Yes, yes.
普：是的，是的。
K: I want to read that book because it is a most extraordinary book. It has not been written, there is no chapter, first or tenth chapter, there are no paragraphs, it is a tremendous movement. Right?
克：我想读那本书，因为它是一本最不寻常的书。 它没有被写出来，没有章节，第一章或第十章， 没有段落，它是一种巨大的运动。对吧？
PJ: Can the mind, any mind contain the enormity of it?
enormity [i'nɒ:miti] n. 暴行, 极恶, 巨大
普：那颗心，任何一颗心灵能够容纳那巨大的运动吗？
K: Now wait a minute, we must begin here. What is the mind - may I go into that - what is the mind and what is the brain? Now may I go on with it a little? Please question as we go along.
克：现在停一下，我们必须从这儿开始。什么是心灵 ——我可以进入那个话题吗 —— 什么是心灵，什么是大脑？ 现在我可以往前走一点吗？请在我们深入的时候保持质疑。
The brain has infinite capacity. Look what it has done in the technological world, something incredible. Right? But psychologically it has been conditioned through evolution - evolution being time.
大脑有无限的能力。 看看它在技术领域中做了什么，那是难以置信的。对吧？ 但从心理上讲，它通过进化而受到约束 —— 进化意味着时间。
PJ: Through that concept?
普：通过那种概念？
K: Of course.
克：当然。
PJ: Not through it, through the concept of time.
普：不是通过它，是通过时间的概念。
K: Of course. No, no. Just a minute, go slowly into this, carefully. Seeing that the brain has extraordinary capacity, as shown in the technological world. I mean what they are doing is incredible. And in the other direction, in the psychological realm, it hasn't moved at all, perhaps a centimetre, less than a centimetre. And because it has not moved, it has not flowered, it is conditioned, it is limited. And the mind is not limited.
克：当然。不 不。只要一分钟，慢慢地进入这里，要当心点。 看到大脑具有非凡的能力， 正如技术领域所显示的那样。 我的意思是，他们正在做的事情令人难以置信。 在另一个方向，在心理领域内， 它根本没有移动，也许移动了一厘米，还不到一厘米。 因为它没有动，它没有开花，它被约束，它是受限的。 而这颗心灵不受限制。
PJ: When you talk of mind, you speak of what?
普：当你说到心灵时，你指的是什么？
K: This is difficult. I'll go into it. The whole, the mind of the universe, the mind of nature, you follow, everything that has been created is the movement of the mind.
克：这很困难。我会深入它。 这个全体，这颗宇宙的心灵，自然的心灵，你跟着吗？ 一切被创造的东西都是这颗心灵的运动。
PJ: Everything that has been created.
普：每一个被创造的东西。
K: And is creating.
克：和正在创造的。
PJ: And is in the process.
普：和在发展中的。
K: All this. Therefore there is no limit to creation. I don't know if you understand
克：所有这一切。因此，创造没有限制。我不知道你是否明白。
AP: Are you suggesting, sir, that when we say that I am the entire heritage of man, it is not the brain that can take in this fact?
阿秋：先生，你是在暗示，当我们说 我是人的全部遗产时，大脑不能接受这个事实？
K: It is the brain that takes in the fact because I have communicated through words, through thought, and you are looking at it through thought and through words, therefore the communication is verbal and thought. Sir, don't let's go back to that for the moment.
克：大脑接受了这个事实， 因为我通过言语，通过思想进行交流， 而你透过思想和言语来看它， 因此，这种交流是言语的和思想的。 先生，现在别再回过头来谈那个问题。
AP: I am trying to pin myself down to this fact that at present whatever I understand I understand through the brain.
阿秋：我试图把自己归结为这样一个事实： 现在，无论我理解什么，我都通过大脑来理解。
K: Ah!
克：啊！
PJ: You see he has moved to another dimension of thought altogether, which if I understand it is this: the brain has done tremendous things in the field of technology, psychologically it is static. The reading of the book...
普：你看，他已经完全转向了思想的另一个维度， 如果我理解的话： 大脑在技术领域做了巨大的事情， 在心理领域上，它是静态的。阅读这本书……
K: Yes, that's the whole point.
克：那就是整个重点。
PJ: ...of mankind - I asked a question, can a single brain contain it, and you came to the brain and the mind. That the brain being limited and not having moved can only move within its own circle. The mind being the very source of creation has no limits.
普：……人类 —— 我问了一个问题： ‘一个大脑可以容纳它吗？’ 接着，你来到了大脑和心灵。 大脑是受限的，没有移动，除了在自己的圆圈内打转。 心灵是创造的源泉，是没有限制的。
K: That's right.
克：是的。
PJ: And therefore this whole history of man is - if I may put it.
普：因此，整个人类的历史都是它创造的 —— 如果我可以这么做。
K: Go on, put it any way you like.
克；继续，以你喜欢的任何方式去做。
PJ: But you say one thing which I would like to point to, when you talk of mind it is all that is created and in the process of creating.
普：但是，你说了一个东西，我想把它指出来， 你谈到了心灵，它创造了所有的东西，并且正在创造。
K: Yes. That is, Pupil, let's be clear on this point. Careful, careful. Thought has created in this world, in the physical world, the churches, the cathedrals, the temples, the mosques, and all the things that are in the mosques, temples; thought has created wars; thought has created the conflict between man and man. Right? Thought is responsible for all this. And because thought in itself is limited it cannot - thought cannot perceive a mind that is immeasurable. But thought tries to understand it. Right? Obviously, because that is its function, which is mechanical function of reducing everything to its limited fragmentary activity. Right? And we are saying that as long as that brain is conditioned it can never understand the immensity of the nature of the mind. Right?
克：克：是的。是那样的，普普尔，让我们明确这一点。 小心，当心。 在这个世界上，这个物质世界，思想已经创造出 教堂、大教堂、寺庙、清真寺，以及庙宇里的一切东西； 思想创造出战争； 思想创造出人与人之间的冲突。对吧？ 思想是造成这一切的原因。 因为思想它本身是受限的， 它不能 —— 思想不能感知一颗不可估量的心灵。 但思想试图理解它。对吗？ 显然，因为那就是它的功能： 一种机械性的功能，使一切简化成有限的、碎片化的活动。 对吗？ 我们说，只要大脑是受限的， 它就永远无法理解心灵所具有的那种浩渺。
PJ: Yes.
普：是的。
K: If you see, the responsibility then is to uncondition the brain, uncondition the limitation which thought has imposed upon it. I've got it!
克：如果你看到，那么你的责任就是解放大脑， 解除思想强加给它的限制。我找到它了！
PJ: Sir, here is something I would like to ask. Is it to uncondition the brain which is conditioned and cannot move out of its groove, or to end the brain, the movement of the brain?
普：先生，我想问一下。 是解除这个被制约的、不能走出它的窠臼的被限制的大脑， 还是要结束这个大脑，停止它的活动？
K: It comes to the same thing.
克：是同一回事。
PJ: No, sir. The perception is in the mind itself.
普：不，先生。这种感知是心灵本身。
K: What is this, what is this? Careful, careful.
克：这是什么，这是什么呢？小心点，当心点。
PJ: I want to ask you something. Is it the deconditioning of the brain which it finds itself unable to do?
普：我想问你一些事情。 这个被解除了限制的大脑，能发现那些它自己无法做到的事情吗？
K: No, no.
克：不，不能。
PJ: Let me finish.
普：让我说完。
K: Yes, yes, I understand.
克：是的，是的，我理解。
PJ: Or is it to hold the brain in abeyance so that the perception which is the mind can operate?
abeyance [ә'beiәns] n. 中止, 暂搁, 停止, 归属待定
普：或者要暂停大脑，从而让作为心灵的感知能够运转？
K: You are putting in modern language what the old traditions say, 'there is in me god. There is in me some element which is not contaminated, which then operates on that.'
克：你用现代语言表达了古老的传统说法， ‘我的里面有上帝。我体内有一些没有被污染的元素， 而现在，它运转了。’
PJ: You have drawn the difference between brain and mind.
普：你已经描绘出了大脑和心灵之间的区别。
K: I have said that.
克：我已经说过了。
PJ: You have drawn the distinction between the conditioned and the...
普：你已经描绘了那两者的区别，受限的和……
K: ...and the unconditioned.
克：……和那个不受限的。
PJ: ...and the non-conditioned.
普：：……和那个不受限的。
K: Yes.
克：是的。
PJ: Between that which has an ending...
普：两者之间有一个结束……
K: I haven't talked about ending.
克：我没有谈到结束。
PJ: Everything which is in the brain as it functions is fragmented.
普：大脑在工作时，里面的每个东西都是破碎的。
K: Yes. Limited, fragmented.
克：是的，受限的，破碎的。
PJ: Let's cut out ending, but it is fragmented. You have talked of a state of fragmented...
普：让我们切断、结束，但它是破碎的。你已经谈到了一种支离破碎的状态...
K: Wait a minute. I said we must differentiate the two words, words. Careful. The two, the meaning of the words. And I say that the brain which is limited cannot understand what the mind is. It can only apprehend, be aware of it, when there is no conditioning.
克：等一下。我说我们必须区分这两个词，词。小心。 这两个，两个词的含义。 我说，受限的大脑无法理解‘什么是心灵’。 它只有在没有受限的情况下才能理解，才能意识到。
PJ: But you went further. In speaking of...
普：但是你走地更远，当说到……
K: Later. I shouldn't have spoken.
克：之后。我不应该说。
PJ: But you have spoken.
普：但是你已经说过了。
K: I know, unfortunately. Because as a matter of fact Dr Bohm and a few others, we were discussing the very same matter. You understand, Pupil, this is really very interesting. Leave the mind alone for the moment. When you once you see what extraordinary capacity the brain has, in the technological, scientific, communication world, surgery, they have transplanted a heart made by man - I don't know if you read about it?
克：我知道，抱歉。因为事实上，玻姆博士和其他几个人， 我们曾经讨论过同样的事情。 你明白，普普尔，这真的很有趣。 暂时把心灵放在一旁。 当你看到大脑具有多么非凡的能力时， 在技术、科学、通信领域，在手术中， 他们已经移植了人造心脏 —— 我不知道你是否读过它？
PJ: Yes.
普：是的。
K: I mean, and the biological experiments, it is incredible what is going on, which is the activity of thought. Thought is limited because knowledge is limited. Now can thought ever be free from its limitation? It can't. Right? Thought can never be free from its limitation because it is born out of limitation. I don't know if you would see this.
克：我的意思是，还有生物实验， 正在发生的事情令人难以置信，这都是思想的活动。 思想是受限的，因为知识是有限的。 现在，思想能摆脱它的限制吗？它不能。对吗？ 思想永远不可能摆脱它的局限，因为它是从局限中诞生的。 我不知道你是否看到这一点。
PJ: May I ask a question? What is the distinction between thought and the brain?
普：我可以问一个问题吗？思想和大脑有什么区别？
K: Thought is the activity of the brain.
克：思想是大脑的活动。
PJ: Is there anything in the brain apart from thought?
普：除了思想，在大脑中还有没有其它的东西？
K: I won't fall into that trap! You are now going back to the old...
克：我不会掉进那个陷阱！你现在要回到旧的...
PJ: No, I am not, sir, I am not. If you accept that the brain has this tremendous potential.
普；不，我没有，先生，我没有。 如果你接受大脑有这种巨大的潜力。
K: And we are only using a very, very small part.
克：而我们只用了非常非常小的一部分。
PJ: Obviously. Even at the ordinary level, not talking of anything like that. If you could do with the psyche what you have done with technology...
普：显然。即使在普通层面上，不必说那些情况了。 如果你能够像在技术领域一样，在心理领域做那些事情……
K: That's all I am saying. I mean then the universe is open to you.
克：那就是我要说的。我的意思是，这个宇宙是向你敞开的。
PJ: It's just that.
普：它就是那样。
K: Yes, that's all I am saying. If the brain has been able to do such extraordinary things technologically, if the brain can free from the limitations of the psyche, it is incredible what it can do. Then I am saying the brain is the mind when it is totally free. The capacity - no, I shouldn't use the word 'capacity' - then there is no sense of division, it is the sense of whole, completeness, wholeness. That's all. I don't want to enter in that. You understand what I am saying?
克：是的，那就是我要说的。 如果大脑能够在技术上做这些非凡的事情， 如果大脑能够摆脱心理上的限制，那么它能做的事情是不可思议的。 那么，我说，当大脑完全自由的时候，它就是这颗心灵。 这种能力 —— 不，我不应该使用‘能力’这个词 —— 那么就没有分裂的感觉， 它是一种整体的、完整的、纯粹的感觉。就那些。 我不想进入那个。你明白我在说什么吗？
PJ: I understand. Now if I may go further. If the brain has had that thrust, that drive, that insight, the energy to pursue technology, why is it...
普：我明白。现在，如果我可以更进一步。 如果这个大脑有那种推力，那种驱动力，那种洞察力， 那种追求技术的能量，为什么它会……？
K: ...that it hasn't turned the other way?
克：……那么，它为何没有转到另一个方向？
PJ: ...that they go up into space and are prepared to die, it is not that it is a question of death, or disappear or disintegration.
普：……他们进入太空并准备赴死， 并不是说那是一个死亡、消失或解体的问题。
K: No, there is a great deal behind it: national pride, hero, praise by the country. They are not prepared to die, they have been propagandized to die in the name of your country: or in the name of god, in the name of the saviour, what they have done, burnt people, tortured people.
克：不，它背后有很多： 民族自豪感、英雄、国家的赞美。 他们不是准备赴死，他们被宣传要为你们的国家牺牲： 或者以上帝的名义，以救世主的名义， 他们做了些什么，烧烤，折磨人。
PJ: No, you are not answering what I am saying. What is that element which enabled man, gave him the curiosity, curiosity to drive in the other direction?
普：不，你没有回答我说的问题。 是什么因素使得人， 给了他这种好奇心，驱使他朝向另一个方向？
K: The other direction, yes. I think our education is responsible for it. Because we have all emphasized, every culture, except perhaps a few dead cultures, that you must earn a livelihood, work, work, work. And to do that study, you know, memorize, repeat, repeat, repeat. That's all we do. This morning I met some of the students - forgive me if some of you are here. They haven't thought about anything except this - mathematics, history, geography, and if you ask them to move a little away from that they are lost.
克：另一个方向，是的。我认为我们的教育对此负有责任。 因为我们都强调，每一种文化， 也许除了少数死去的文化，你必须谋生，工作，工作，工作。 去做这个研究，你知道，记住，重复，重复，重复。这就是我们所做的一切。 今天早上，我遇到了一些学生 —— 如果你们中的一些人在这里，请原谅我。 他们没有想过任何事情，除了这些 —— 数学、历史、地理， 如果你要求他们稍微远离这些东西，他们就迷失了方向。
AP: Even among the scientists, there are only a few who go to the impossible question.
阿秋：即使在科学家之中，也只有少数人会去解决不可能的问题。
K: But, sir, even those are...
克：但是，先生，甚至那些……
AP: Very few. I say similarly today in the present crisis of the survival of humanity there is sufficient motivation - I say motivation deliberately - I say there is sufficient ground for man to say that this is the most intolerable predicament for man, and the brain must be explored.
阿秋：很少。我说，类似地，在当今人类生存的危机中， 有足够的动机 —— 我故意说动机 —— 我说人有足够的理由 这是人类最无法忍受的困境，而大脑必须被探索。
K: No, sir. They are exploring the activity of the brain.
克：不，先生。他们正在探索大脑的活动。
PJ: Not of the psyche.
普：与心理领域不相关。
AP: No, we are now, we must understand after all that every activity of the psyche is personal to the brain cells.
阿秋：不，我们现在，我们必须理解， 毕竟心理的每个活动，都是一个人的脑细胞的活动。
K: No, no. Just a minute, sir, don't go into the business of what the brain is. What we are saying is very simple, sir. The brain has extraordinary capacity, extraordinary capacity - I don't like to use the word 'capacity' because that means based on experience, and capacity based on experience is not capacity. Sorry! There is a different kind of movement which is not based on experience, knowledge. That's a different matter. The brain has done extraordinary things. And psychically, psychologically it has not moved an inch after all these forty thousand years. Now if there is a breakthrough of that cycle then I am saying there is no division between the mind and the brain, and the energy of the brain - I will use that, energy of the brain. You understand? The energy of the brain has done the technological world.
克：不，不。停一下，先生，不要进入‘大脑是什么’的话题。 我们说的很简单，先生。 大脑具有非凡的能力，非凡的能力 —— 我不喜欢使用‘能力’这个词，因为这意味着基于经验，而基于经验的能力不是能力。 不好意思！有一种不同的运动， 它不是基于经验、知识。那是另一回事。 大脑做了非凡的事情。 而在心理上，在心理领域内，在经历了整整四万年之后，它并没有移动一寸。 现在，如果那个循环被打破， 那么我就说，心灵和大脑之间没有分别， 大脑的能量 —— 我将使用那，那大脑的能量。你理解吗？ 大脑的能量已经被用在技术领域。
PJ: Yes, but it has never been released for this.
普：是的，但是它不可能因此而解脱。
K: For the other.
克：要靠另一个。
AP: No, sir, what I want to understand is, after all I think the word energy is much better than the word motivation because it is really energy.
阿秋：不，先生，我想理解的是，毕竟 我认为 ‘能量’ 这个词比动机这个词要好得多，因为它是真实的能量。
K: I said that.
克：我说过。
AP: It is the energy of attention.
阿秋：它是这种关注的能量。
K: No, sir, don't say attention of anything, just energy for the moment. Psychologically my energy is practically nil. And I am saying that when that limitation has been broken down, or broken through, then there is a totally different energy, which no is channelled through technology which is merely the activity of thought, and therefore that energy is limited. Right?
克：不，先生，不要说对任何东西的关注，这里只有能量。 在心理层面上，我的能量几乎为零。 我是说，当这种限制被打破或突破的时候， 就有一种完全不同的能量， 它不是通过技术引导的，技术只是思想活动， 因此这种能量是受限的。对吗？
AP: I am making a very simple statement: that where you point out the limitations of thought, I say that man has within him an energy which can transcend the limit of thought, and that is the energy of attention.
阿秋：我用一个非常简单的陈述： 当你指出思想的局限性时， 我说，人的内在有一种可以超越思想极限的能量， 那就是关注的能量。
K: No. Don't.
克：不，不是。
PJ: If we are trying to get to as vast a field as possible, perhaps the word attention again limits it because we have used the word so often in the past, that I think it is better to drop the word.
普：如果我们试图进入一个尽可能广阔的领域， 也许‘关注’这个词再次限制了它， 因为我们过去经常使用这个词，我认为最好放弃这个词。
AP: Drop the word. There is no bother about dropping the word.
阿秋：放弃这个词。没有必要放弃这个词。
K: I am only saying, sir...
克：我只是在说，先生……
AP: We must feel that we have a faculty other than thought to pursue the mind.
阿秋：我们必须感觉到，除了思想之外，我们还有一种能力来追求这颗心灵。
K: No, I won't accept that. You see he is introducing again the same old pattern, which is there is a faculty which is hidden, which is the energy of god, whatever you like to call it.
克：不，我不会接受那种说法。你看，他又在引入同样的旧模式， 那就是有一种隐藏的能力， 那就是上帝的能量，无论你喜欢怎么称呼它。
AP: I am saying I am looking at the real, I am looking at the tree.
阿秋：我说我看的是真实，我看的是树。
K: Which is what?
克：那是什么？
AP: Which is just plain attention.
阿秋：那只是普通的关注。
K: No, it is energy.
克：不，它是能量。
AP: Energy.
阿秋：能量。
K: Keep to that word, keep to that word. Man has used the energy of thought in technology. Right? Right? It is the energy of thought, therefore limited.
克：就用那个词，拿着那个词。 人类在技术领域上使用了思想的能量。对吗？对吧？ 它是思想的能量，因此是有限的。
AP: Right, quite right.
阿秋：是的，当然是。
K: Now the breaking down of the psyche is not the energy of thought.
克：现在，心理上的突破不是思想的能量。
AP: Agreed.
阿秋：同意。
K: Right?
克：对吧？
AP: That's obvious.
阿秋：那是显而易见的。
K: Ah, no, sir, it is not obvious.
克：哈！不，先生，它不是明显的。
AP: It is, sir.
阿秋：它是，先生。
PJ: Let me probe a little more.
普：让我来再探索一下。
K: Yes. Come down.
克：嗯，深入下去。
PJ: The instruments man has, let us examine those instruments. One is thought. The others are the senses themselves.
普；人拥有的工具，让我们来看看这些工具。 一个是思想。其余的是感觉器官。
K: Sensory responses.
克：知觉上的回应。
PJ: Sensory responses.
普：知觉上的回应。
K: The sensitivity of the senses.
克：感官的灵敏度。
PJ: Yes.
普：是的。
K: Sensitivity of the senses and thought, which are both the same.
克：感官的灵敏度和思想的灵敏度，两者都是一样的。
AP: How, sir?
阿秋：怎么会，先生？
PJ: This is what I would like to get at. The sensitivity of the senses and thought are the same?
普：这就是我想到的地儿。 感官和思想的灵敏度是一样的吗？
K: I'll show it to you in a minute. I have just caught something. It may be wrong. So I want to look at it myself. I don't accept what I say. I didn't mean that! I want to examine this. The sensitivity of the senses. Our senses are controlled by thought. Right? Right?
克：我现在就把它展示给你。我刚好抓住了一些东西。 它可能是错误的。所以我想亲自看看。我不接受我所说的话。 我不是那个意思！我想检查这个。感官的灵敏度。 我们的感官被思想所控制。对吗？对吧？
PJ: No.
普：不对。
K: Just a minute, don't say, no. Don't take any definite stand.
克：一分钟，别说不。不要采取任何确切的立场。
PJ: No, I am not saying when you make a statement...
普：不，我不是说，当你作出一个陈述……
K: I have made a statement, I am going to see if it falls, I'll drop it. If you take a stand...
克：我已经作出了一个陈述，我要看看它是不是假的，我会放弃它。如果您采取一个立场……
PJ: No.
普：没有。
K: That's right. I see the senses are now shaped, controlled by thought. That is, my sense of taste, if I like it thought comes in.
克：那就好。我看到感官现在被塑造，被思想控制。 也就是说，我感知到的口味，如果我喜欢它，思想就来了。
PJ: Saying, I want more of it.
普：思想说，我想要更多。
K: If I feel something or other thought comes in and says, 'Look, be careful, that is painful, don't go through there'. So is there - I am just asking - is there a movement of all the senses, the total senses, without the interference of thought? Just look at the question first before we throw it out or accept it. That is, have you ever looked at the movement of the sea, movement of the sea, not the movement of trees, the vast movement of the tides, the beauty of the waves, the enormous power of the waves, with all your senses and eye looking? In that there is no interference of thought. Now when thought interferes with the senses it must inevitably limit it or control it. I am right. I am going to stick to this.
克：如果我感觉到某个东西，或者某个思想冒了出来，并说， '看，当心，那很痛苦，不要通过那里'。 那么，有没有 —— 我只是在问 —— 有没有一种包含所有的感官、整个感官系统的运动，且不受思想的干扰？ 在我们抛弃或接受它之前，先看看这个问题。 那就是说，你有没有看过大海的运动，大海的运动， 不是树林的运动，而是潮汐的巨大运动，海浪的美丽， 海浪的巨大力量， 用你所有的感官和眼睛去看？那里没有思想的干扰。 现在，当思想干扰感官时， 它必然地限制或控制它。我是对的。我将坚持这一点。
PJ: Then what you say is right. No, I'm not wanting to argue with you with what you have said just now. There is a challenge, and my senses respond according to the conditioning of the mind, but there is a response of the senses...
普：那么，你说的是对的。 不，我不想和你刚才说的话争论。 有一个挑战，我的感官根据心灵所受到的限制做出回应， 但是，有一种感官的回应……
K: Partial, always partial because thought is always watching, controlling it, trying to say, 'I must', 'I must not', 'This is wrong', 'That is right'.
克：部分的，总是部分的，因为思想总是在观察，在控制它， 试图说，‘我必须’，‘我一定不要’，‘这是错的’，‘那是对的’。
PJ: No, but forgive me. Once, it was some instance, it can be water reflected in water.
普：不，但请原谅我。曾经，它是某个实例，它能像水一样被映射到水中。
K: What is this? What is this?
是什么，这是什么？
PJ: It can be like water being reflected in water. That is, there can be a state of sensitivity when there is nothing contained in those senses.
普：它能像水一样被映射到水中。 那就是说，当这些感官中没有任何内容的时候，就有一种灵敏的状态。
K: Yes, all right, go on.
克：是的，对的，继续。
PJ: So, I want to push one more thing. I won't ask you if you jump down my throat.
普：因此，我想推出更多的东西。如果你生气，我就不说。
K: I won't!
克：我不会！
PJ: That is, there is some connection between the senses - you see, sir. It is a little confused, I am not myself very clear about it.
普：那就是，感官之间有某种关联 —— 你看，先生。 它有一点困惑，我自己对此不是很清楚。
K: All right.
克：好的。
PJ: You look about when you think of your brain, you think of it as there.
普：当你留心于你的大脑时，你看，你会想到它就在那里。
K: You think of it as somewhere in the head.
克：你认为它在脑袋中的某个地方。
PJ: Somewhere in the head.
普：在脑袋里的某个地方。
K: And told by the scan.
克：通过扫描而被告知。
PJ: But when the senses do not operate from thought, do not contain thought...
普：但是，当这些感官不被思想左右，自发地运转时，就不包含思想……
K: Contain thought?
克：包含思想？
PJ: Do not contain thought, the place of operation changes.
普：不包含思想，运转的地点发生了改变。
K: That's right.
克：那是的。
PJ: That is all I am saying. I didn't want to put it into words.
普：那就是我要说的。我不想用文字表达。
K: Of course, it is simple enough. When the senses are observing completely, heightened senses, and when you look at the movement - I am taking purposefully the seeing - or one of those extraordinary sights of the Himalayas, when there is not a cloud or a breath, the line, the sky line of the hills against the blue, it is an extraordinary sight. When you look at the sea completely that way there is no centre, there is no thought. Right? The moment thought comes in there is a centre in the senses. Right?
克：当然，它很简单。 当感官完全地清醒，高度地感知， 当你观看这个运动 —— 我故意使用观看 —— 或者喜马拉雅山的某一个非凡的景象， 当没有一丝云烟或气息，那线条，蓝天衬托出山脉的轮廓， 它是一个非凡的景象。 当你完全看大海时，没有中心，没有思想。对吗？ 当思想进来的那一刻，在感觉中，就有了一个中心。对吗？
PJ: We are part of thought, we are part of the senses.
普：我们是思想的一部分，我们是感觉的一部分。
K: Yes.
克：是的。
PJ: Is there a third movement?
普：有第三种运动吗？
K: Yes, that's the whole point.
克：那就是整个重点。
AP: What is that? Repeat.
阿秋：那是什么？重复一下。
PJ: I said we have talked of thought, we have talked of the senses, and now I ask him is there a third movement.
普：我说了，我们已经谈到了思想，我们已经谈到了感觉， 现在我问他：有第三种运动吗？
K: This is difficult. Is there an instrument - not instrument - is there an action, a movement, a state - state in the sense not a static state - which is not the movement of thought? That is what you are asking, right?
克：这很难。是否存在一种工具 —— 不是工具。 是否存在一种行动、一种运动、一种状态 —— 那状态不是静态的，也就不是思想的运动？ 那就是你要问的，对吧？
PJ: Not a movement of thought, not a movement of the senses.
普：不是思想的运动，不是感觉的运动。
K: Wait, wait, let's look at it carefully. Look at those two words: thought and no movement of the senses. When you observe the sea with all your senses there is no sensory movement. Right? Right? Of course. The senses are not aware that they are heightened. Right? I wonder if I have made myself clear. Yes, anything that is excellent is not aware of its own excellency. Goodness in the highest sense has no sense of being good.
克：等等，等等，让我们仔细看看。看看那两个词： ‘思想’和‘没有感觉的运动’。 当你用你所有的感官观察大海时，没有感觉的运动。对吗？对吗？ 当然。感官没有意识到它们被增强了。 对吗？我想知道我是否已经说清楚了。 是的，任何卓越的东西，没有意识到它所拥有的卓越性。 最高意义上的善良，没有善良的感觉。
PJ: You see, what you are saying is...
普：你看，你所说的是……
K: Yes, I stick to this.
克：是的，我坚持这一点。
PJ: You see, Krishnaji, you are taking - let me...
普：你看，克里希那吉，你在拿走 —— 让我……
K: Go on, darling.
克：继续，亲爱的。
PJ: You are taking the essence of all thought, the essence of all senses, and it is essence itself then is the instrument.
普：你正在拿走所有思想的本质， 所有感觉的本质，而它自身的本质就是这把工具。
K: No. Leave it for the moment. I understand what you are saying. Now first of all I would like to get this clear between ourselves. When there is the heightened excellency of the senses, the senses are not aware they are aware. Awareness takes place that the senses are fully aware when thought comes in.
克：不。暂时放下。我理解你在说什么。 现在，首先，我想在我们之间弄清楚这一点。 当感官处于高度灵敏的状态， 感官没有意识到他们在感知。 感官在完全感知的状态下，当思想进入的那一刻，意识发生了。
PJ: Already it has...
普：它就已经……
K: It has already gone. Right? Now when thought is aware of its own tremendous limitation, then it has broken through. But to realize that, it is not verbal, not thought, to see thought has no place in the movement of - I mustn't go into this, steady! Now wait a minute, what are we trying to get at?
克：它已经消失了。对吗？ 现在，当思想意识到它所拥有的巨大局限性时， 那么，它已经突破了。 但要意识到那，不是口头上的，不是思想， 看到思想在运动中没有位置 —— 我一定不能进入这儿，定住！ 现在，等一下，我们想得到什么？
PJ: We are reading the story of mankind.
普：我们在阅读人类的故事。
K: See how far we have got.
克：看看我们已经走了多远。
PJ: And asking what is the instrument with which we read.
普：正在问，我们读这本书的工具是什么。
K: I will tell you. The story of mankind is an endless movement. It had no beginning and no end. If you once grant that - right? It has no ending. But my brain being limited is looking for its ending. Right? So I am approaching the book with 'where is the end of all this?'
克：我会告诉你。人类的故事是一场无休止的运动。 它没有开始，也没有结束。如果你一旦承认了那 —— 对吧？它没有尽头。 但我这个受限的大脑，正在寻找它的尽头。对吧？ 因此，我以‘这一切的尽头在哪里？’这个问题，来翻开这本书。
PJ: The search is for the ending.
普：探索是为了这个尽头。
K: Of course, of course. But to realize there is no end. You know what it means? Then you enter into something called love. Love has no end. I may love my wife, she dies, or I die, but the thing called love has no end. But I have identified myself with my wife and when she dies my love has gone - or I love somebody else, which then becomes pleasure and all the rest of it. I don't want enter into all that.
克：当然，当然。但是，发现了它是没有尽头的。你知道它意味着什么？ 然后，你进入了一种叫做‘爱’的东西。爱没有尽头。 我可能爱我的妻子，她死了，或者我死了，但所说的‘爱’是没有尽头的。 但是我已经把自己与我的妻子相认同，当她去世时，我的爱已经消失了 —— 或者我爱别人，然后变成了快乐和所有其它的东西。 我不想进入所有那些。
So how do I read the book? That's the question. How do I read the book? You don't read at all. Right? There is no book to read if you have come to that point.
那么我该如何阅读这本书呢？那就是问题所在。 如何阅读这本书？你根本不读书。对吧？ 如果你已经到了那一步，就没有可读的书了。
PJ: Without coming to that point the other is...
普：没有走到那一步，那就会……
K: You merely examine, analyse, change, move, change the chips in the same field. Right? When you have come to this really deep point that this book has no end and no beginning, which means you are that book. Not that you become eternal, which is dangerous again. But that life as this movement has no end, it is then the universe. Right? Then the cosmos is this whole thing.
克：你就只是在检查，分析，改变，移动，在同一个领域内变换碎片的花样。对吗？ 当你来到这个很深的点，那就是这本书没有结束，也没有开始， 它意味着你就是那本书。 那并不是说你成为了永恒 —— 这又是一个危险。 但是，作为这场运动的那条生命，没有尽头，它就是这个宇宙。对吗？ 那么，宇宙就是这个整体。
PJ: Time for you to end.
普：对你来说，是结束的时候了。
K: Oh, yes. Ten past five. Have we been talking nonsense?
克：哦，是的。十点过五分。我们在胡扯吗？
PJ: No, sir.
普：不，先生。
K: Pupulji, if somebody heard all this, somebody who is serious of course. It is all so extraordinarily wild - but it is not. I am just saying. It is not wild, it is very logical, very clear - at least to me - clear and can be stated in Sorbonne, or Harvard, or in Delhi, it will stand water. Right?
克：普普尔，如果某个人听到了这一切，当然，是一个认真的人。 这一切都是如此异常狂野 —— 但它并不是。 我只是说说而已。它不是狂野的，它非常合乎逻辑、非常清楚 —— 至少对我来说 —— 清晰，可以在索邦大学、哈佛大学或德里大学说，它将经得起考验。对吗？