We should ask, I think, not only now as students at Brockwood, but also as educators, whether we are inwardly and perhaps also outwardly - they are really related - whether we are growing, not physically taller or stronger, but inwardly, psychologically, flowering.

我们应该问，我想，不只是学生， 还包括教育工作者，我们是否在内心处，也可能包括外在 —— 两者实际上是相互联系的，我们是否正在成长 —— 不是指身体更高或更强壮，而是指内在的、心灵的开花。

I mean by that word flowering that nothing hinders us, nothing blocks or prevents us from actually growing deeply, inwardly. Most of us hardly ever flower, grow, bloom. Something happens in the course of our life which stultifies us, deadens us, so that there is no deep inward nourishment.

我用‘开花’这个词的意思是指： 没有东西干扰、阻挡或妨碍我们内在的成长 —— 真切而深刻地成长。 我们大多数人几乎从不开花，成长，绽放。 在我们的生活中发生了某些事情，使得我们愚笨、僵死， 因而缺乏深层的内在滋养。

Perhaps it is because the world around us demands that we become specialists - doctors, scientists, archeologists, philosophers and so on; perhaps that may be one of the reasons why, psychologically, we don't seem to grow... immensely.

也许是因为我们周围的世界要求我们成为专业人士 —— 医生、科学家、考古学家、哲学家等等； 这也许是其中的一个理由，在心理上，我们似乎没有成长…… 对我们大多数人来说。

I think that is one of the questions that we should talk over together. As a small community of teachers and students living here together what is it that is preventing us from flowering? Is it that we are so deeply conditioned - by our society, by our parents, by our religion, and even by our knowledge? Are all these environmental influences really preventing, or blocking, or hindering this blossoming? Do you understand my question?

我认为这是我们应该共同讨论的问题之一。 作为一个由老师和学生组成的小社区，一起在这里生活，是什么阻止了我们开花？ 是因为我们受到了极深的限制吗？ —— 它来自于我们的社会、父母、宗教甚至我们的知识？ 这些所有的周围的影响，是否真正地妨碍、阻拦、阻碍了开花？ 你明白我的问题吗？

You don't understand? Look! If I am a Catholic, my mind, my brain, my whole psychological structure, is already conditioned, isn't it? My parents tell me I am a Catholic, I go to church every Sunday; there is Mass, with all its beauty, the scent, the perfume, the people with new hats and dresses, watching each other, there is the intoning of the priest - all that conditions the mind, and there is never a flowering. You understand? I move along in a certain groove, a certain path, within a certain system, and that very path, that very system, that very activity is limiting - and therefore there is never a blossoming. Do you now understand my question? Is that what is happening here?

不明白吗？瞧！ 如果我是一个天主教徒，那么我的思想、我的大脑、我的整个心理结构，就受到了限制，不是吗？ 我的父母告诉我，我是天主教徒，每逢周末，我都去教堂。 那里有弥撒和它所有的美 —— 香水、香味，人们戴着新帽子，穿着新衣服，互相看着， 有牧师的吟唱 —— 所有的这些都制约了头脑，根本就不可能开花。你明白吗？ 我沿着某个凹槽，某一条路，在某个系统内运转， 而那一条路，那个系统，那里的活动正在限制 —— 因此永远不会开花。你现在明白我的问题了吗？这就是此处正在发生的情景吗？

Are we so heavily conditioned by the many accidents and incidents and pressures and assertions - of parents, society, and all the rest of it - that we are prevented from flowing easily, happily, from growing? If that is it, then does Brockwood, here, help us to break down our conditioning? You follow my question now? If it does not, then what's the point of it? What's the point of Brockwood if you're going to turn out like the many millions of people who have never felt, or enquired, or lived, in the sense of this vast deepening, flowing, flowering? You understand my question?

我们是否受到了严重的限制 —— 来自父母、社会以及所有其他方面的许多事故、事情、压力和主张的限制 —— 以至于我们无法轻松地、快乐地流动与成长？ 如果是这样，那么在学校，在这儿，能够帮助我们打破我们的限制吗？ 你在留意我提出的问题吗？如果没有帮助，那它有什么意义？ 学校的存在有什么意义？当你离校后，将会面对数百万的人们 —— 那些从未感受、探索或经历过这种广阔而深远的流动与开花的感觉？ 你理解我的问题吗？

Student: Outside, there is too much pressure, you know.

学生：在外面，有太多的压力，你知道的。

K: You say there is too much pressure. Go into it slowly, enquire into it. If you had no pressure would you do anything? Would you pay attention, now? I am pressing you, you understand? I am not actually pushing you into a corner, but I am pointing something out to you - and that, to you, will also be a pressure because you do not want to look. You want to have fun in life, you think that you are a special person, that you want to do something special and therefore you neglect everything else. If you received no pressure at all of any kind would you be active? Or, would you become more and more lazy, indifferent and in the end, wither away? Though you may have a husband or a wife, children, a house, a job and all the rest of it - inwardly does the flowering ever take place?

克里：你说有很多的压力。慢慢地进去，调查它。 如果你没压力，你会做什么事情呢？你现在在听吗？ 我在推你，你明白吗？我实际上并没有把你推到墙角，而是在向你指出某些东西 —— 对你来说，那也会是一种压力，因为你不想去看。 你想在生活中玩得开心，你认为你是一个特殊的人， 你想做一些特殊的事情，因此你忽略了其余的一切。 如果你没有任何压力，你会活泼吗？ 或者，你会变得越来越懒惰、冷漠，直到走向枯萎吗？ 尽管你可能有丈夫或妻子、孩子、房子、工作和所有其它的东西 —— 在里面，'开花' 可曾发生过？

So, is one receiving here the right kind of pressure? You understand? The right kind. Not the compulsive pressure, not the pressure to imitate, not the pressure of success, climbing the ladder, becoming somebody, but the pressure that helps you to grow, inwardly. Are you following? Because if there is no flowering, then one lives an ordinary mundane life and dies at the end of sixty or eighty years. That is the usual life of the average person - have you noticed it? And when you observe all this, what is your reaction, what do you say about it?

那么，一个人是否在这里接受到这种正确的压力？你理解吗？ 这种正确的压力，不是强制，不是模仿的压力， 不是追求成功、攀比、成为某个榜样的压力， 而是帮助你的内在成长的压力。你跟上了吗？ 因为如果没有开花，那么一个人过着普通而世俗的生活，直到六十或八十年后死去。 这是普通人的日常生活 —— 你注意到了吗？ 当你观察这一切时，你的反应是什么，你对此怎么看？

Student: One asks if it is meaningful to live like that.

学生：这样的生活有什么意义？

K: Look, my friend. You can see, as you grow older, that very few people are happy; there is too much pressure, competition, a thousand people after one job, there is overpopulation. Everything in the world is becoming more and more dangerous. You understand? And, when you observe all this, what is your response?

克里：瞧，我的朋友。你可以看到，随着年龄的增长，很少有人快乐; 有太多的压力，竞争，一千人竞争一份工作，人满为患。 世界上的一切都变得越来越危险。你明白吗？ 那么，当你观察这一切时，你有什么反应？

Student: I can see my parents getting older, they are running around without any need to, because there is a fear of looking at all that.

学生：我看到我的父母正在变老， 他们为不必要的事情而四处奔波，因为害怕看到这一切。

K: So you are saying that most people in the world are seeking physical security and perhaps, psychological security. Will security, biological or psychological, give you this sense of flowering? You understand? I use the word 'flowering' in the sense of growing - like a flower growing in a field without any hindrance. Now, are you seeking security, both outwardly and inwardly? Are you psychologically depending on somebody, depending on a belief, on identification with a nation, with a group, or learning a specific technological subject and working at it, so that it will also give you inward security? Are you seeking psychological security in some kind of knowledge?

克里：所以你是说世界上的大多数人 在寻求生理上的安全，也许还有心理上的安全。 那么安全 —— 无论是生理上的还是心理上的，会带给你这种‘开花’的感觉吗？你理解吗？ 我用‘开花’这个词来形容成长 —— 如同一朵花，毫无阻碍地在田野里生长。 现在，你在寻求安全吗 —— 包括外在的和内在的？ 你是否在心理上依赖于某人，依赖于一种信仰，依赖于对一个国家、一个群体的认同感？ 或者学习一门专业技能并致力于此，以便于带给你内在的安全？ 你是不是在某种知识中寻求心理上的安全？

You have to ask all these questions in order to find out, haven't you? You have to ask if there is such a thing as psychological security? Do you understand my question? Look - I depend on my husband, my wife, for many, many reasons - for comfort, sex, encouragement, when I feel lonely, depressed, to have somebody who says, "lt's all right. You're doing very well", who gives me a pat on the back and says how nice I am, so that gradually I feel more comfortable and so eventually become attached and increasingly depend on him or her. in that relationship there is a certain feeling of security, but actually, is there security in that relationship at all?

为了找到答案，你必须问所有这些问题，不是吗？ 你不得不问，有没有‘心理上的安全’这样的东西？你明白我的问题吗？ 看 —— 我依靠我的丈夫或我的妻子，出于很多很多的原因 —— 为了舒适、性爱、鼓励，当我感到孤独、挫折时， 有人说，"没关系。你做得很好"， 他拍了拍我的背，说我有多么地好，这样渐渐地我感到更加舒服了， 所以，最终变得依恋，越来越依赖于他或她。 在那段关系中，有一种安全感， 但实际上，那种关系中，到底有没有安全？

Student: The relationship is very fragile.

学生：这段关系非常脆弱。

K: It is very fragile, but is there permanent security in any relationship at all? You will fall in love - whatever those words may mean - and for a few years you will be attached to each other, you will depend on each other in every way, both biologically and psychologically, and in that relationship you are seeking the continuity of that feeling all the time, aren't you? Aren't you? At least, you hope for it. But before you completely tie yourself in a knot, which you call `falling in love', mustn't you enquire whether there is any security in any relationship between human beings? - which doesn't mean a hopeless, depressing loneliness.

克里：它是很脆弱，但在任何关系中，有永久的安全感吗？ 你们会坠入爱河 —— 不管这些词是什么意思 —— 几年来，你们会依恋彼此， 你们将在各个方面相互依赖，无论是在生理上还是在心理上， 在这种关系中，你一直在寻求这种感觉的延续性， 不是吗？不是吗？至少，你希望如此。 但是，在你完全把自己绑在这个被你称为‘坠入爱河’的结之前， 你难道不问一下：在人与人之间的任何关系中，是否存在任何的安全？ —— 这并不意味着一种绝望或令人压抑的孤独。

You are lonely, uncomfortable by yourself, insufficient in yourself, afraid that you cannot live alone, and so gradually you begin to attach yourself to someone or something, because you are frightened. And so what happens? When you are attached you are equally frightened, because you may lose the object of your attachment. Right? That person may turn away from you, may fall in love with somebody else. So I think it is very important to be clear as to whether there is any security in relationship.

你孤独，自己感到不好受、空虚，害怕自己不能独自生活， 所以渐渐地，你开始依恋某人或某个东西，因为你害怕。那么会发生什么？ 当你依恋时，你也同样感到害怕，因为你可能会失去依恋的对象，对吗？ 那个人可能会离你而去，可能会爱上别人。 因此，我认为弄清楚‘在关系中是否有任何的安全？’是非常重要的。

What, in relationship,is love? You are following? Is love in relationship a sense of great satisfaction, of great security? If you find there is no security in relationship, then you will have to ask - is there security in love? You understand? No? you haven't understood? All right, let us look at it again.

在关系中，什么是爱？你跟上了吗？ 在关系中，爱是一种极大的满意感，一种极大的安全感吗？ 如果你发现关系中没有安全，那么你将不得不问 —— 在爱里有安全吗？ 你理解吗？没有？你不明白？好吧，让我们再看看。

I am attached to you, I like you, I `fall in love' with you, I want to marry, have children. But is this attachment permanent? Is it lasting? Or is it very fragile, shaky, uncertain? I want to make it certain, yet in reality it is very uncertain. Right? So that is one point in relationship. And we say that in relationship there is love. Now is there security in love? And what do we mean by love? Are we going along together in this?

我依恋你，我喜欢你，我‘爱上了’你，我想结婚，生孩子。 但这种依恋是永久性的吗？它持久吗？还是非常脆弱、摇摇欲坠、不确定？ 我想使它确定，但实际上它非常不确定。对吗？ 因此，那是关系中的一点。 我们说，在关系中，有爱。 现在，爱的里面有安全吗？ 我们所说的‘爱’是什么意思？我们在一起走吗？

So to go back to my first question: I want to find out whether it is possible to bloom, to grow and to live completely - you know: over the hills and dancing! That is what I want to find out in life. Or is life always to be depressing, lonely, miserable, violent, stupid? You follow? That is the first thing one wants to find out. And is Brockwood helping you to bloom?

因此，回到我的第一个问题： 我想找出：是否有可能绽放、成长和完全地生活 —— 你知道：翻越山峦、舞动生命！ 那就是我想在生活中寻找的东西。 还是生活总是令人压抑的、孤独、悲惨、暴力、愚蠢？你明白吗？ 那是一个人想要找出的第一个东西。 而这所学校正在帮助您绽放吗？

In Brockwood there is relationship with each other - as there is everywhere. You can't help it. You see each other every day. And, in this relationship you might fall in love with somebody. Yes? And you get attached to that person. When you are attached you want that attachment to continue, don't You? You want it to last endlessly - until both of you collapse at the end of it! And you have to find out whether in that relationship there is anything permanent. Is that relationship permanent? [A shaking of heads.] So, you say it is not permanent. How do you know it is not permanent?

在学校里，彼此之间有关系 —— 它无处不在。 你没办法阻挡它。你们每天都能看到对方。 而且，在这段关系中，你可能会爱上某个人。是吧？ 你依恋上那个人。 当你依恋时，你希望那种依恋继续下去，你不是吗？ 你希望它能不停地持续 —— 直到你们俩在最后崩溃！ 而你必须弄清楚在那种关系中是否存在任何永久性的东西。 那种关系是永久性的吗？ [摇头。] 所以，你说它不是永久性的。 你怎么知道它不是永久的？

You may get married, in a Church or a Registry Office, but, in that relationship is there a continuity of real freedom, without any conflict, without any quarrels, isolation, dependence - all that? You say "No", but why do you say no? I want to find out why you say it. Will you say this when you are in love and married, in the first year? Will you say then that there is no security in this? Will you? Or after only a few years, five years or a dozen years, will you say, "Oh, my God! There's no security at all!"?

你可能会结婚，在教会或婚姻登记处， 但是，在那种关系中，有没有一种真正的自由的延续性 —— 没有任何的冲突、争吵、隔阂、依赖等所有的这些问题？ 你说‘没有’，但你为什么说没有呢？我想知道你为什么这么说。 当你恋爱并结婚时，在头一年你会这么说吗？ 在那段时期，你会说里面没有安全吗？你会吗？ 或者几年后，五年或十几年后，你就会说，"哦，我的天！那里面根本没有安全！"？

And also you have to find out whether in this relationship of insecurity, of uncertainty, with always the fear, the boredom, the moments of happiness, the repetition - seeing the same face over and over again for ten, twenty, fifty years - whether in that relationship you will blossom. Will you grow? Will you be a most extraordinarily beautiful, total, entity? And also you have to find out, when you are so-called `in love' - which is a much used word, and spoilt, degraded - whether, in that feeling you will blossom.

你还必须弄清楚， 在这种不安全、不确定的关系中， 伴随着恐惧、无聊、短暂的快乐、不断的重复 —— 在十年、二十年、五十年里一遍又一遍地看到同一张脸 —— 在那段关系中，你是否能开花。 你会成长吗？你会成为一个最美丽、最完整的个体吗？ 而且你也必须发现，当你处于所谓的‘恋爱中’ —— 一个经常使用的词，尽管已经被玷污、被贬低了 —— 在那种感觉中，你是否会开花。

Student: it seems that when we have a relationship with someone we do not give sufficient time for an investigation - to know if there is security in it, or not; because perhaps the relationship will be much more between two `images.'

学生：似乎当我们与某个人建立关系时， 我们没有足够的时间去调查 —— 调查其中是否有安全； 因为也许，我们更看重两个‘印象’之间的关系。

K: Are you saying that we have images about each other - as a man and a woman - and that in those images there are conclusions? And we want those conclusions to continue permanently.

克里：你是说，我们有关于彼此的印象 —— 一个男人和一个女人 —— 并且那些印象中包含了某些结论？ 而我们想让这些结论能够永久地延续。

Student: There is too much of the superficial thing in that relationship, and there is no time for investigation into what is the real, taking the image apart.

學生：在那段关系中，有太多肤浅的东西， 同时，没有时间去调查其中的真假，拆解那个印象。

K: What we are talking about is, first of all: does one see the importance that one must flower? The importance of it, the truth of it, the reality of it, the necessity of it, the beauty of it? - that one must flower. And does relationship, as it is now between two human beings, help you to flower? That is one point. And we also said that we love each other. Will that love nourish the flowering of the human mind, the human heart, the human qualities? You understand?

克里：我们谈论的是，首先： 一个人是否看到了‘一个人必须绽放’的重要性？ 它的重量、它的真理、它的现实、它的必要、它的美？ —— 一个人必须开花。 这个关系，两个人类之间的关系，能帮助你绽放吗？ 那是一点。我们说过：我们彼此相爱。 那种爱会滋养人类的头脑、心灵、品性，从而使人类绽放吗？你理解？

We are also asking, does being here at Brockwood help you to grow, to flourish not technologically, not by just becoming a specialist in this or that, but inwardly, psychologically, under-theskin, inside you? Do you see that there is nothing that blocks you, hinders you, that you are not neurotic, lopsided, but a whole complete human being growing, flowering?

我们也在问，在这所学校里，是否能帮助你成长？ 不是在技术上蓬勃发展，不只是成为这个或那个方面的专家， 而是在内、在心理、皮肤之下、你的里面。 你是否看到： 没有什么东西阻挡你、妨碍你， 你没有变得神经质、没有失去平衡， 而是作为一个完整的人类在成长，开花？

So, we have to ask now, what is love? Right? What do you think it is? There is a problem here. You love your parents, and your parents love you. At least, they say so and you say so. Are we on dangerous ground! Are we? My question is: Do they?

所以，我们现在要问，什么是爱？ 对吗？你认为它是什么？ 这里有一个问题。你爱你的父母，你的父母也爱你。 至少，他们这么说，你也这么说。 我们是否处于危险之地！我们是吗？ 我的问题是：他们真的爱你吗？

If they love you they will see to it, from the moment you are born that you are unconditioned, that you flower, because you are a human being, because you are the world. Because, if you do not flower, you are caught in the world, you are destroying other human beings. If your parents loved you they would see that you are properly educated - not technologically, not merely to get a job - but inwardly so that you have no conflict.

如果他们爱你，从你出生的那一刻起，他们就会照看你， 使你不被限制，那么你开花， 因为你是一个人类，因为你是这个世界。 因为，要是你不开花，你就被困于这个世界上，你就正在毁灭其他的人类。 如果你的父母爱你，他们会照看你，使你受到恰当的教育 —— 不是在技术上，不只是为了找工作 —— 而是在深处，那样你就没有冲突。

All this is implied when I say I love my daughter or my son. You understand all this? Or, I don't want him to become a first-class businessman, making a lot of money. What for? Or a marvellous specialist - even though he may help a little bit here and there outwardly - building better bridges, becoming a better doctor, and all the rest of it.

当我说：我爱我的女儿或我的儿子，就意味着这。你理解这一切吗？ 或者说，我不想他成为一流的商人，赚很多钱。 那样做有什么用？或者一个了不起的专家 —— 尽管他可能在这里和那里能提供一点帮助 —— 建立更好的桥梁，成为一名更好的医生，等等。

So, what is love? Isn't it very important to find out? Please, don't you want to find out? Surely you have observed the people around you, parents, friends, grandmothers - the world around you. They all use the word `love'. And yet, they quarrel, there is competition, they are willing to destroy each other. You follow? Is that love? What is love to you, then?

那么，什么是爱？ 找出它不是很重要吗？拜托，你不想找出来吗？ 你肯定已经观察过周围的人，父母，朋友，祖母 —— 你周围的世界。 他们都使用‘爱’这个词。 然而，他们之间有争吵，有竞争，会互相毁灭对方。你跟上了吗？ 那是爱吗？那么，对你来说，爱是什么？

Student: It is difficult to talk about.

学生：它很难说。

K: What do you feel? What is love to you? I am sure you all use the word `love' don't you - a great deal! So what does it mean? You know the word `hate', the meaning of that word. And you know the feeling of it, don't you - antagonism, anger, jealousy - all that is part of hate isn't it? And competition is part of hate. Right? So you know the feeling of what it means to hate people. And you can put it down in words very well. Now, is love the opposite of hate?

克里：你觉得它是什么？对你来说，爱是什么？ 我确信，你们都在用‘爱’这个词，你不用吗？ —— 很常用！ 因此，它是什么意思？你知道‘恨’那个词，那个词的含义。 你知道它包含的感觉 —— 敌对、愤怒、嫉妒 —— 所有那些都是恨的一部分，不是吗？竞争是恨的一部分。对吗？ 所以你知道‘恨人’意味着怎样的感觉。 你可以用文字很好地描述它。 现在，爱是恨的对立面吗？

Student: The feelings are opposite.

学生：这些感觉是对立的。

K: So can you have both in your mind, in your heart - hate and love? Stick to it! Do you have such feelings, hate and love, together? Or not together? One is kept in one corner and the other in another corner. I hate somebody, and I love somebody. Right? But, if you have love, can you hate anybody? Can you kill people, can you throw bombs, and all the other things that are happening in the world?

克里：因此，你能把恨和爱，把它们同时放在你的头脑、你的心中吗？坚持做下去！ 你们有这些感觉吗？ —— 那种恨和爱混在一起的感觉？还是两者不在一起？ 一个在这个角落，另一个在那个角落。我恨某个人，我爱某个人。对吗？ 但是，如果你有爱，你能恨任何人吗？ 你能杀人，能扔炸弹， 能做那些正在世界上发生的所有其它类似的事情吗？

So let us go back to the first question: do we feel, both the educator and the educated, do we all see the great importance, the necessity, that each human being, all of us, should grow, and flower - not merely mature physically, but mature deeply, inwardly? If you don't, then what is the point of it all? What is the point of your getting educated? Passing some exams and getting a degree, getting a job, if you're lucky, setting up house - will all that help you, help each human being, each one of you, to blossom?

因此，让我们回到第一个问题： 我们是否感觉，无论是教育者还是受教育者， 我们是否都看到了这种巨大的重量、必要性，那就是每一个人类， 我们中的所有人，都应该成长，开花 —— 不仅在身体上成熟，而且在深处，在心理上成熟？ 如果你没有，那么这一切有什么意义？你接受教育的意义是什么？ 通过某些考试并获得文凭，找到一份工作，如果你幸运，再盖一栋房子？ —— 所有的那些，会帮助你、帮助每个人类、你们中的每个人绽放吗？

So, if you were my daughter or my son, that is the first thing I would talk to you about. I would say, look, look around you, at your friends in the school, at the neighbours - see what is happening around you - not according to what you like or don't like, but just look at the fact. See exactly what is happening, without distortion.

所以，如果你是我的女儿或我的儿子， 那我首先要和你谈论的就是这件事。 我会说：看，看你的周围，看你学校里的朋友们，看这些邻居们 —— 看你周围正在发生的 —— 不是根据你的喜好或不喜好， 而是看这事实。 精准地观看那正在发生的，不带一丝一毫的扭曲。

People who are married are unhappy, have quarrels, endless strife, you know all that goes on. And the boy and the girl - they also have their problems. And see the division of people into races, groups - national groups, religious groups, scientific groups, business groups, artistic groups - you follow? Everything is broken up. Do you see that? Then the next question is, who has broken it up? Do you follow?

已婚的人们不快乐、争吵、无休止的冲突，你知道那一切都在继续。 而男孩和女孩 —— 他们也有他们的问题。 看看人们被划分成种族、团体 —— 国家团体、宗教团体、科学团体、商业团体、艺术团体 —— 你跟上了吗？ 一切都被打碎了。你看到那了吗？ 那么下一个问题是：谁把它弄碎的？你跟上了吗？

Human beings have done this. Thought has done it. Thought that says, "I am a Catholic", "I am a Jew", "I am an Arab", "I am a Muslim", "I am a Christian". Thought has created this division. So, thought, in its very nature, in its very action, is seen to be divisive, bringing about fragmentation. Do you see that thought must bring about fragmentation, not only within yourself, but outwardly? Is this too difficult?

人类已经做到了。思想已经完成了它。 那个思想说：“我是一个天主教徒”，“我是一个犹太人”，“我是一个阿拉伯人”，“我是一个穆斯林人”，“我是一个基督徒”。 思想创造了这种破碎。因此，思想， 它的本性里，它的行为中，就有分裂性，导致破碎化。 你是否看到： 不仅在你自己的内部，同时也在外部，思想必然导致分裂？ 这太难了吗？

I am asking, do you actually see the fact that thought, in its very nature and activity, must bring about fragmentation? And, if you say you see it, do you see it as a fact, or do you only see the idea? You follow? Which is it? Is it an idea or a fact?

我在问：你真地看到这个事实 —— 思想，在它的本性和它的活动中，必然导致分裂？ 那么，如果你说你看见它，你所看到的，是一个事实，还是一个观念？ 你理解吗？是哪一个？一个观念，还是一个事实？

Student: It's an idea.

学生：它是一个观念。

K: So, why do you make of it into an idea? I say to you: Look around you, the wars, the terror, the bombs, the violence, and in every house the constant disturbance between relationships - the competitive society, the commercial society - do you see all this as real as this table is? Or is it an abstraction, which is called an idea? And, if it is an idea, why do you make it so when it is obviously a fact?

克里：那么，你为什么把它加工成一个观念？我对你说： 看你的周围：战争、恐怖分子、炸弹、暴力， 以及在每个屋子里，人与人之间的持续的冲突 —— 竞争性社会、商业性社会 —— 你所看到的这一切，是否像这张桌子一样真实？ 或者，它是一种抽象，被称为一个观念？ 如果它是一个观念， 当它是一个明显的事实的时候，你为什么把它加工成一个观念？

Student: Perhaps thought is limited because of the structure within which it works. It takes things from the past and compares them with other things.

学生：或许，思想之所以受限，是由于它所工作的工厂结构。 它从过去中抓取东西，并将它们与其他东西进行比较。

K: Why is thought, in itself, fragmentary, broken up limited? In itself not merely its results. Isn't thought the result of time? Observe it, find out! Isn't thought the result of the movement of time? Thought is the result of memory, surely. You see that. It is the result of memory, experience, knowledge; and all that is the past, isn't it? It is modified in the present, and goes on. So, it is movement in time. So because thought is of the past and of time, it must be fragmentary. It is not, and never can be, the whole.

克里：为什么思想，在它自己的内部，是分裂的、破碎的、有限的？ 它的里面不只是包含了它的结果。 思想难道不是时间的结果吗？ 观察它，找出来！思想难道不是时间运动的结果吗？ 思想就是记忆的结果，当然了。你看见那。 它是记忆、体验、知识的结果；而那一切都是这个过去，它不是吗？ 现在它被修改了，并且在继续。 所以，它在时间领域内的运动。 那么，因为思想属于过去，属于时间，所以它必定是破碎的。 它不是，也永远不可能是，那个整体。

Listen! from the age of nine I have learnt English - and other languages. That's memory, isn't it? It has taken me a few years to learn them, and they are stored up in the brain - the words, the syntax, how to put sentences together - all that took time, didn't it? And any thought springing from that period of time is limited. So thought is not the whole, not complete. Thought can never be complete because it is always limited.

听！从九岁起，我就开始学英语和其它语言 —— 而那就是记忆，它不是吗？ 我花掉了几年的时间才学会它们，而它们保存在这颗脑袋里 —— 词汇、语法、如何造句 —— 所有那些都需要时间，不是吗？ 接下来，从那段时期中喷涌出的任何思想，都是受限的。 因此，思想不是整体、不是全部。 思想永远不可能是完整的，因为它总是受限的。

Please see this, not as an idea but as an actuality. We said thought is the response of memory. Memory is stored up in the brain; it is experience and the constant accumulation of knowledge. And when you are asked something - memory responds. So thought must be limited, because memory is limited, knowledge is limited, time is limited.

请看这，不是作为一个观念，而是一个真实。 我们说，思想是记忆的回应。 记忆保存在脑袋里；它是体验和知识的不断积累。 当你被问到某个东西的时候 —— 记忆做出回应。 所以思想必定是受限的，因为记忆是有限的，知识是有限的，时间是有限的。

It is thought that has created division in the world. You are Dutch and I am German, he is British and the other Chinese. Thought has created this division. Thought has created the religions - the thought that says "Jesus is the greatest Saviour"; then go to India and they say, "Sorry, who is that gentleman? I don't know him at all. We have our own God who is best of all". Thought has created the wars and the instruments of war. Thought is responsible for all this. Right?

在这个世界中，是思想创造出分裂。 你是荷兰人，我是德国人，他是英国人，另一位是中国人。思想制造了这种分裂。 思想创造了各种宗教 —— 思想说：“耶稣是最伟大的救世主”； 然后，去印度，他们说， “对不起，那位先生是谁？我根本不认识他。我们有自己的上帝，在所有的人里，他是最好的。” 思想制造了战争和战争机器。 思想是造成这一切的原因。对吗？

Student: All these ideas, of which you have given examples.... K: They are not ideas these are facts

学生：所有这些观念，你都列举出了例子…… 克里：它们不是观念，而是事实。

Student: Yes, yes, but....

学生：是的，是的，但是……

K: I want to stick to this. I'm asking you if you see this fact that you are from one country and I am from another. We have a different colour, different culture, and all the rest of it. Do you see the divisions in India - the Muslim, the Hindu? Who created them?

克里：我想停在这儿。 我问你，你是否看到了这个事实：你来自一个国家而我来自另一个国家。 我们有不同的肤色、不同的文化，以及所有其余的差别？ 你看到印度的分裂吗 —— 穆斯林人、印度教徒？谁创造出了它们？

Student: I see the divisions but I, personally, don't care because they're superficial.

学生：我看到这种分裂， 但对我私人来说，并不在乎这些，因为它们是肤浅的。

K: You may not care, but some people do care, and they hate each other. So what is behind this divisive thought? Conditioning, isn't it? My parents have said to me, "You are a Brahmin", "You are a Hindu", and your parents have said, "You are a Christian".

克里：你可能不在乎，但有些人确实在乎，他们互相憎恨。 那么，这种分裂性的思想的背后是什么？条件性的限制，它不是吗？ 我的父母对我说，“你是婆罗门”，“你是印度教徒”， 而你的父母说，“你是基督徒”。

Student: There is the instinct to belong to a group.

学生：有一种属于某种团体的本能。

K: Why is there the instinct to belong to a group - why? Because it is much safer. To belong to a community, to identify yourself with a small group gives you a sense of security. But why don't you identify yourself with all the human beings in the world, with a total human being? Why the small group?

克里：为什么有一种属于某个团体的本能 —— 为什么？ 因为它更安全。 属于一个社区，把你自己与一个小团体相认同，会给你一种安全感。 但是，你为什么不把你自己与世界上所有的人，与一个完整的人类相认同？ 为什么要属于那个小团体？

So I am pointing out that thought has created all these human, psychological and worldly problems. There is no denying it. Do you see this as a fact and not just as an idea? It is as much a fact as when you have toothache. You don't say, "It's an idea that I have toothache"!

因此，我要指出，思想制造了所有这些问题 —— 心理上的和世界上的问题。 这是不可否认的。你看到这是个事实，而不是一个观念了吗？ 就像你感受到牙痛一样。 你不会说，‘我牙痛，它是一个观念’！

So let's put it this way. Is thought love? Can thinking bring about love?

所以让我们这样说吧： 思想是爱吗？思想活动能带来爱吗？

Student: If you love somebody, you have to think.

学生：如果你爱一个人，你必须思考。

K: What I am asking you is: Can love be cultivated by thought? We have said that thought is fragmentary - will always be fragmentary.

克里：那我问你：爱可以通过思想来培养吗？ 我们说过，思想是破碎的 —— 总会是破碎的。

And the next question. Thought, being fragmented, must in its activity and its action bring about fragmentation - then can thought cultivate and bring about love?

下一个问题。 思想，这个破碎的东西，在它的活动和它的行为中，必然带来碎片 —— 那么思想能培养并带来爱吗？

Now when you say "No" - be careful, for I'm going to trip you on this! When you say, "No, thought is not love" - is it again an idea, or an actuality? If it is an actuality, something that is so... then, where love is concerned, there is no movement of thought.

现在，当你说‘不’时 —— 要小心，因为我会绊倒你！ 当你说：“不能，思想不是爱” —— 你说的是一个观念，还是一个事实？ 如果它是一个事实，那就是如此…… 那么，在那考虑爱的地方，没有思想的运动。

Is this a little too much? Do you understand this, not up here [touching head] but deeply, inwardly.

是不是听得有点腻了？ 你理解这个吗？不是在这里[摸摸脑袋]，而是在深处，在里面。

Be very, very careful. If love is not thought, if it is not based on thought, then what is relationship? If thought is not love, then what do you do with the actual relationships that you have now?

小心点，谨慎些。 如果爱不是思想，如果它不是基于思想，那么什么是关系？ 如果思想不是爱，那么在现实的交往中，你如何处理关系？

I say to myself that I see the fact, not the idea, that thought is not love. But I am married, I've got children, I've got my mother - we all have images about each other. That interacting relationship is the action of images - images which I have made about my mother, my wife, my children. And this I call `love'. I say - "I love my mother", "I love my wife, my children".

我对我自己说，我看到这个事实，不是那种观念，那种思想不是爱。 但我已经结婚，我有子女，我有我的母亲 —— 我们都有关于彼此的印象。 这种内在的关系是印象之间的互动 —— 我制作出关于我的母亲、我的妻子、我的孩子的印象。 这种关系被我称之为‘爱’。我说 —— “我爱我的母亲”，“我爱我的妻子、我的孩子”。

Now I am saying that I see this relationship is based on thought, on the image. And also I see very clearly that love is not the product of thought, that love cannot be thought. Then what happens to my relationship with my mother, my wife, my children?

现在，我说，我看见这种关系是基于思想，基于印象。 而且我非常清楚地看到，爱不是这种思想的产物，爱是那个不能被思想的。 那么，我与母亲、妻子、孩子关之间的系会发生什么？

Student: How do you see this?

学生：你看，这下该怎么办？

K: There is no `how' - it isn't a mechanical thing. Don't you see it, actually? - that love has nothing to do with thought - full stop. I see very clearly that thought is a movement in fragmentation. I see it very clearly. It is a fact, an actuality - not an idea.

克里：不存在‘怎么办’ —— 它不是机械化的东西。你没看见它吗，真实地？ —— 那个爱与思想无关 —— 句号。 我非常清楚地看到，思想是一种碎片化的运动。 我看得很清楚。它是一个事实，一种真实 —— 不是一个观念。

But I am married, I have children, I've got a mother, and when I see, realize, that my relationship has been based on my images, on thought, then what takes place?

但是我结婚了，我有孩子，我还有一位母亲， 当我看到，意识到，我的关系是基于我的印象、基于思想，然后，发生了什么？

Student: That relationship between images used to be called `love', but you are saying love is something different from that. K: I have said: I fell in love, I have been married a number of years and I have children. I have an image about my wife. Right? I have created it. She nags me, she has bullied me, dominated me. And she has an image about me - that I have bullied and dominated her. There is this interaction going on, sexually and in every way. I have built a picture about her and she has built a picture about me. That's a fact. Please see this! See that this imagebuilding is the movement of thought. Don't move from there unless you see it! Don't move from that fact.

学生：印象之间的这种关系曾经被称之为‘爱’， 但你说爱是与那不同的某个东西。 克里：我说了：我坠入爱河，我已经结婚很多年了，我有孩子。 我有一个关于我妻子的印象。对吧？我创造了它。 她对我唠叨，欺负我，支配我。她有一个关于我的画面 —— 我欺负和支配她。这种互动正在持续，无论是在性方面还是在各个方面。 我建立了一幅关于她的图像，她也有一幅关于我的照片。 那就是一个事实。 请看它！看，这个图片的加工过程就是思想的运动。 别从那里移开，除非你看到它！不要离开那个事实。

Now, you come along and tell me that thought is a movement of fragmentation. You explain to me very carefully why it is - because it is bound by time, bound by memory, bound by knowledge, so it is very limited. I see that. And the next step is - when I have seen that, in relationship with my mother, my wife, my children - what am I to do?

现在，你走过来告诉我，思想是一块碎片的移动。 你非常小心地向我解释了其中的原因 —— 因为它被时间缠着、被记忆捆着、被知识包裹着，所以它非常局促。 我看到那了。下一步是 —— 当我看到那，在与我的母亲、我的妻子、我的孩子的关系中，我做什么？

So what happens? When I realize that my relationship with my wife, my husband, with a girl or a boy, whoever it is, is a movement of time and fragmentation - what happens?

那么，发生了什么？ 当我意识到，我与我的妻子、我的丈夫、与女朋友或男朋友的关系， 与任何人的关系，是一个时间上的移动，是一块碎片 —— 在发生什么？

If you see it - then what is love? Is love the same as this? Is love fragmentation? Is love a picture, an image made by thought, a remembrance?

如果你看到它 —— 那么，什么是爱？爱与这个相同吗？ 爱是碎片吗？爱是一幅图画、一幅思想创作的画、一烟回忆吗？

Student: At first with the feeling of being in love you see something beautiful. Then you would like to crystalize that.

学生：在开始的时候，坠入爱河，会产生一种感觉，好像看到了某个美丽的东西。 接着，你就想把那种感觉晶体化。

K: Do you see something beautiful? Do you? Do you actually see something beautiful?

克里：你见过美丽的东西吗？你见过？ 你真地见过某种美丽的东西吗？

When you look at that beautiful tree on the lawn, or a woman, or a cloud, or a sheet of water and see that it is extraordinarily beautiful - can you just remain with that? Or do you turn it into an idea - an idea that it is beautiful? What takes place at that moment of seeing?

当你观看草坪上那棵美丽的树， 或者一个女人，或者一朵云，或者一泓水， 看到它非凡的美 —— 你能停在那种状态中吗？ 还是你把它变成一个观念 —— 一个‘它好美’的观念？ 在看的那一刻，发生了什么？

Student: There is no word.

学生：不存在语言。

K: Which means what? No word, no thought. So beauty takes place when there is no movement of thought. You agree to this? [Heads nod.] You are all together in agreeing! How extraordinary! So, when you see something beautiful there is the absence of thought. Now, can you stay in that moment and not wander away from it? Watching that cloud the mind is not chattering because there is no thought in operation. Thought is totally absent when you see something extraordinarily beautiful

克里：那意味着什么？没有词语，没有思想。 因此，当思想没有移动的时候，美就发生。 你同意这点吗？[点头。] 你们都同意了！真不可思议！ 所以，当你看到某个美丽的东西时，思想就不在。 现在，你能留在那一刻，而不逃逸吗？ 观察那片云，头脑不会喋喋不休，因为没有思想在运转。 当你看到某些非常美的东西，思想完全不存在。

Now watch it carefully, listen carefully, please listen carefully. The cloud, with its light, its splendour, its immensity, has taken you over. Do you see this? The cloud has absorbed you. Which means you, in that absorption, are absent. Next step. A child is absorbed by a toy. Remove the toy and he is back to his mischief. That is exactly what has happened. The cloud has absorbed you, and when the cloud goes away you are back to yourself.

现在小心，仔细观察它，请仔细听，听仔细。 那朵云，洁白，轻盈，空灵，把你带走了。 你看到这些了吗？ 云已经吸收了你。这意味着你，在这种吸收中，已经不在了。 下一步：一个小孩子被玩具吸收。拿走这个玩具，他又回到了他的恶作剧。 那如同刚才所发生的。 云已经吸收了你，当云消失了，你又回到了你自己的身边。

Can you, without being absorbed by the mountain, by the cloud, by the tree, by the sound of a bird, by the beauty of the land, be totally empty in yourself?

你能不被大山、云、树、鸟儿的声音、大地的美丽吸收， 使你自己完全空无吗？

Remove the toy, and the child is back to his naughtiness - yelling and shouting, but give him a toy and the toy takes him over. I'm asking you, without the toy, and therefore nothing to absorb you - can there be... an absence of yourself. Oh do see the beauty of this! You understand?

拿走玩具，孩子又回到了顽皮的状态 —— 大喊大叫，但给他一个玩具，玩具就把他带走了。 我问你，没有这个玩具，因此没有什么东西可以吸收你 —— 能处于…… 一种你自己缺席的状态吗？ 哦，看这其中的美！你理解吗？

So beauty is, when you are not. Beauty is, when thought is absent.

所以当你不在的时候，美就在。 美就是，当思想缺席的时候。

Now - love is not thought, is it? Are you beginning to see the connection?

现在 —— 爱不是思想，它是吧？你开始看到了这种联系吗？

I love you - you have absorbed me - I want you, you look nice, you smell nice, you have nice hair, my glands demand all kinds of things, sex, and so on. You have absorbed me. I have fallen in love with you. That is the absorption. And I cling to you. I Love you. But in time my old self asserts itself and says - yes, that was very nice two years ago, but now I dislike her. I fell in love with her - but now look what has happened!

我爱你 —— 你已经吸收了我 —— 我想你，你看起来好漂亮，你闻起来真香，你有精致的头发，我的腺体要求各种各样的东西，性，等等。 你吸收了我。我爱上了你。 那就是吸收。我紧紧抓住你。我爱你。 但随着时间的流逝，我的这个陈旧的自我，对着它自己，断言并宣称 —— 是的，两年前，那是很好的，但现在我不喜欢她。 我曾经爱过她 —— 而现在，看看已经发生了什么！

Please see the truth of this - that where there is beauty there is a total absence of thought. So, love is the total absence of... `me'. Got it? If you have got it you have drunk of the fountain of life. Student: Does the feeling include the being absorbed?

拜托！看这里面的真相 —— 哪里有美，哪里就有完全没有思想。 所以，爱是彻底地消失……‘我’不见了。明白了吗？ 如果你得到了它，你就醉饮了生命之泉。 学生：那么这种感觉包含这个消失的东西吗？

K: What is feeling? If there is no thought would you have feelings? Look at it carefully. Look at it! Is beauty feeling? We said beauty is without thought. And is there a feeling when there is no thought? Get the kernel of it, the insight into it. Leave all the details, the details can come later. See the truth of this one thing, which is: where there is beauty there is no thought. Where there is love there is the absence of `me'... the `me' who is chattering, chattering, full of problems, anxiety, fear. When there is the absence of `me', there is love.

克里：什么是感觉？如果没有思想，你有感觉吗？仔细地看它。 看着它！美是感觉吗？我们说过：美是没有思想。 没有思想，有感觉吗？ 抓住它的核心，专注它。放弃所有细节，细节可以稍后再来。 看到这个东西的真相，也就是：有美的地方就没有思想。 哪里有爱，哪里就没有‘我’…… ‘我’在喋喋不休，吵吵嚷嚷，充满了问题，焦虑，恐惧。 当‘我’缺席，爱在。

Student: You look at a cloud, and it goes, and you fall back into yourself.

学生：你看一朵云，它走了，你又回到了你自己身上。

K: Have you seen the little boy give the little girl a doll? She's perfectly happy, quiet, not restless, not crying. Give the boy a complicated toy and he'll spend an hour playing with it. He's forgotten to be naughty. The doll, the toy, have become allimportant. And, when you see the cloud, the bird flying across the sky, when you see that, what takes place? Your chattering stops. And when you see a Western film, or any other film, you are looking at it. You are not thinking about all your problems, your worries, your fears. You are just absorbed by the film. Stop the film and you're back to yourself!

克里：你见过小男孩给小女孩一个洋娃娃吗？ 她非常快乐、安静、不躁动、不哭泣。 给男孩一个复杂的玩具， 他会花一个小时玩弄它。他忘记了顽皮。 洋娃娃，玩具，已经变得非常重要。 而当你看见云朵，鸟儿飞过天空，当你看到它，在发生什么？ 你的喋喋不休停止了。当你看一部西部片，或任何其他电影时，你在看它。 你完全没有思考你的问题，你的担忧，你的恐惧。 你只是被电影所吸收。 停止电影，你又回到了你自己身边！

So you see, if you push this much further, ideas are your toys, ideals are your toys, and they take over all of you. Religions are your toys. When these things are questioned you are back to yourself and you become disturbed, frightened.

所以你看，如果你再深入一步， 观念是你的玩具，理想是你的玩具，它们带走了你们所有人。 宗教是你的玩具。 当这些东西被质疑时，你又回到了你自己身边，你变得不安、恐惧。

Student: Is there not one thing which is out of it, out of the world of toys?

学生：难道就没有一样东西不是从玩具世界中冒出来的吗？

K: I've shown it to you. Please listen carefully. We have said that thought has created this world. The wars, the businessman, the politician, the artist, the crook - society has made all this. Society is our relationship with each other - which is based on thought. So thought is responsible for this awful mess. Is it so? Or is it an idea? If you say it is an idea, then you are not looking at the actual fact.

克里：我已经向你展示了它。请仔细听。 我们说过，思想创造了这个世界。 战争、商人、政治家、艺术家、骗子 —— 社会创造了这一切。 社会是我们彼此之间的关系 —— 它扎根于思想。 所以思想是造成这种可怕的混乱的原因。是这样吗？还是一个观念？ 如果你说它是一个观念，那么，你没有看到这个事实。

So, move from that. Thought, we said, is broken up; whatever it does will break up. Do you see that as something as real as the fact that I am sitting here?

所以，从那里移动。思想，我们说过，是破碎的；无论它做什么都会破裂。 你看到那个事实了吗，如同事实一样真实 —— 如同我坐在这儿？

Student: That is all mechanical thought, but is there something behind it which uses it?

学生：那都是机械的思想， 但是，在它的背后，没有某种东西使用它吗？

K: You have nothing else but mechanical thought. When that mechanical thought stops - then there is something else. But you can't say, "Yes, that is mechanical thought, so let us look at the other". Thought has to stop. And it stops, for instance, when you see beauty, when you see a vast range of mountains with snowcovered peaks; the majesty of it, the grandeur of it takes you over. And when that mountain is not there you are back with your quarrels, with your thoughts. Please find out for yourself. Sit down, meditate, go into it.

克里：除了机械的思想，你什么都没有。 当这种机械的思想停止时 —— 那么，有其他的东西。 但你不能说，“是的，那是一个机械的思想，所以让我们来看其他的”。 思想必须停下。它停下，就好像， 当你看到美，当你看到一大片的山脉和白雪皑皑的山峰时； 它的威严，它的壮观把你带走了。 当那山不在时，你回来了，携带着你的争吵、你的思想。 请你自己找出来。坐下来，冥想，进入它。

Student: It's all very well, but....

学生：一切都很好，但是……

K: It's all very well you say, but I've got to go back to my uncle, my aunt, my mother, my grandmother, and to earn money, and all the rest of it. And that's the problem with all of us. So what are you going to do? When you realize, when you see, actually, that, except technologically and in practical matters, thought is the most mischievous thing, that it is the most deadly thing in relationship, therefore destroying love... then what are you going to do?

克里：你说一切都很好， 但我必须回到我的叔叔、我的阿姨、我的母亲、我的祖母那里， 还得去赚钱，以及做所有其他的事情。 那就是我们所有人的问题。那么，你要做什么？ 当你意识到，当你看到，真正地看那，除了技术上的和现实中的问题， 思想是最有害的东西，在关系中，它是最致命的东西，因此在毁灭爱…… 那么，你会做什么？

You have to earn money, get a livelihood, which demands thought. So there you exercise thought. When you have got to go to the dentist, you exercise thought. When you have to buy a suit, a dress, you compare - this is better material than that, and so on - that requires thought. But you realize that thought is deadly in relationship. That's all. Pax.

你必须赚钱，谋生，这需要思想。 所以你在那里运用思想。当你必须去看牙医时，你会运用思想。 当你去买一套西装、一件衣服时，你比较 —— 这个料子比那个更好，等等 —— 这需要思想。 但是，你意识到：思想在关系中是致命的。 就是如此。帕克斯。