A: The greatest hindrance to perception is idea. What is the difference between fact and the idea about a fact? K: How do the professionals regard perception, the seeing, the fact? R: In Vedanta, it is said that consciousness acts through the sense organs. It sees an object. Consciousness takes the form of the object. It is like water taking the shape of the vessel. That is perception.
阿：感知的最大障碍是观念。 事实与对事实的观念，两者之间有何区别？ 克：对于感知、看见、事实，专家们如何看待？ 拉：《吠檀多》说，意识通过感觉器官而起作用。 它看到一个对象。 意识获得这个对象的形状。就如同水获得这个容器的形状。 这就是感知。
K: What is perception, the seeing, to you? You see the chest of drawers; you have the image of the chest of drawers, therefore, recognize it as the chest of drawers. When you see that piece of furniture, do you have the image first or do you see first, have the image and then recognize? R: Instantaneously the image arises, then we call it a chest of drawers. A: There is seeing, and the immediate naming.
克：对你来说，什么是感知，这种看是什么？你看这个衣柜； 你有一个衣柜的形象，因此，你识别出它是衣柜。 当你看到那件家具， 你是先有形象还是先看，形象，然后识别？ 拉：形象瞬间浮现，然后我们就把它称为‘衣柜’。 阿：看，接着立即命名。
K: So I do not have the image first. There is seeing, association, recognition, naming. I do not start with the naming, the image. That is fairly easy. I see you this morning. I saw you yesterday and, therefore, there is an image of you. So that image is you. Is there a difference between the physical object of perception and the mental image of perception? A: There is a difference between the two. One is purely an image of a shape as in the case of an object, the other is an image created by reactions, which are not merely form and shape.
克：因此，早先我没有形象。这个过程是：看，联想，识别，命名。 我不是从命名和形象开始的。这是相当容易的。 我今天早上见到你。我昨天见过你，因此，有你的形象。所以那个形象就是你。 感知的物理对象和感知的心理形象之间有区别吗？ 阿：两者之间是有区别的。 一个是作为物体形状的形象， 另一个是由反应而产生的形象，里面不仅仅是样式和形状。
K: Take a simple thing. You see a snake. The brain cells are conditioned to snakes; they know that snakes are dangerous. The brain is conditioned from childhood to the danger of a snake and so it reacts. The child, not knowing the danger, may not react, but the mother comes along and tells it. The chest of drawers, the picture, the naming of it, has formed a picture in the brain cells. So I say it is a chest of drawers. The brain cells have been conditioned by a particular environment to call it a chest of drawers. A: The question is, therefore, before seeing the fact, the idea about the fact arises which may not necessarily be factual.
克：举一个简单的例子。你看见一条蛇。脑细胞受制于蛇； 它们知道蛇是危险的。 这个大脑从小就受限于蛇的危险，所以它会做出反应。 不知道危险的孩子可能没有反应，但母亲走过来并告诉它。 衣柜，图片，它的命名，在脑细胞中形成了一幅画。 所以我说这是一个衣柜。 阿：因此，问题是， 在看到事实之前，关于事实的观念就产生了，而这个观念可能不一定是事实。
K: Are you saying that there is violence, one feels angry, then the naming of the feeling and the naming is to strengthen the past? A: I meet my brother. He has quarrelled with me and I am on my guard when I meet him next. So I am unable to see him at all. I am only seeing the idea. R: The brain cells carry the image of the hurt. K: There is violence, anger. At the moment of anger, there is no naming. A second later, I call it anger. The naming of that feeling as anger is to record that fact and strengthen the past, the memory, which has recognized that feeling as anger.
克：你在说暴力吗，一个人感到愤怒， 然后给这种感觉命名，而这种命名加强了这个过去？ 阿：我碰到我哥哥。他和我吵架了，下次碰见他时，我会保持防御。 所以我根本看不见他。我只看到了这个观念。 拉：脑细胞携带着受伤的形象。 克：有暴力，愤怒。在愤怒的那一刻，没有命名。一秒钟后，我把它称为愤怒。 将这种感觉命名为‘愤怒’，是为了记录这个事实 并加强这个过去，这个记忆，这个我所认识的愤怒的感觉。
R: This is something which is different from naming. K: We are coming to that. There is the chest of drawers, there is the person, then all the emotional reactions. One is angry; at the moment of anger there is no naming, a second later there is naming. Why do we name? Why do we say "I am angry"? Why is there the need to put it into words? Or is it merely habit; an instant response? A: A defence mechanism starts. The recognition itself is creating a situation which says "I do not want to get into conflict." K: That is one part of it - naming as a process of self-defence. Why does one name a particular reaction? R: Otherwise, one would not feel that one was existing. K: Why do we name it, why do I name? You have hurt me and I name it and form a certain self-defence. A: If I did not name, there would not be continuity. K: Why does the mind give it a continuity? R: To feel that it exists.
拉：这与命名有某些不同。 克：我们正在来到那一点上。这件衣柜，这个人，然后是所有的情绪反应。 一个人愤怒，在愤怒的那一刻没有命名，一秒之后出现了命名。 我们为什么命名？为什么我们说‘我很愤怒’？ 为什么需要把它变成言词？或者仅仅是一种习惯性的动作、瞬间的反应？ 阿：防御机制启动了。 识别本身营造出一种情景，说‘我不想卷入冲突。’ 克：这是其中的一部分 —— 命名是一个自我防御的过程。为什么一个人要命名一种反应？ 拉：否则，一个人觉得他没有存在感。 克：我们为什么要命名它，我为什么要命名？你伤害了我，我命名它并形成一定的自我防御。 阿：如果我不命名，它就不会延续。 克：为什么头脑要赋予它延续性？ 拉：为了感觉到它的存在。
K: What exists - feeling, anger? Why has naming become so important? I name my house, my wife, my child. Naming strengthens the me. If I did not name, what would happen? Anger would be over. Why should there be continuity? Why does the brain, the mind, operate in continuity? Why is there this verbalization all the time? A: Verbalization establishes that there is some residue. K: Why do we do this? It may be a habit, a form of giving continuity to a sense of anger and the not ending of it. All that indicates that the mind needs occupation. Now, why is the mind demanding to be occupied with sex, God, with money? Why? A: The mind gets stimulated all the time. If there were no stimulus, the mind would fall asleep. K: Is it so? Is this very occupation not putting the mind to sleep?
克：什么存在 —— 感觉，愤怒？ 为什么命名变得如此重要？我命名我的房子，我的妻子，我的孩子。命名加强了我。 如果我不命名，会发生什么？愤怒就结束了。 为什么要有延续性？为什么这颗大脑，这颗头脑，要延续性地运作？ 为什么总是有这种语言化？ 阿：语言化构建出某些残留物。 克：我们为什么要这样做？这可能是一种习惯，一种使愤怒感延续而不结束它的形式。 所有这些都表明，头脑需要占据。 现在，为什么头脑要求被性欲、上帝、金钱所占据？为什么？ 阿：头脑总是在接受刺激。如果没有刺激，头脑就会睡着。 克：是那样吗？难道不是这种占据让头脑昏沉吗？
A: Why does the mind slacken when it is not occupied? K: On the contrary, the moment we begin to enquire why there is this necessity for any kind of occupation, the mind is already alive. A: Mere absence of occupation is not enough. K: Of course, there are many who get duller and duller every day without any occupation. But the question is why does your mind want to be occupied? Will it go to sleep if it is not? Or is it fear of emptiness that makes the mind want to be occupied?
阿：为什么头脑不被占据时会松弛？ 克：恰恰相反， 在我们开始询问‘任何形式的占据有必要吗？’，这颗头脑就已经醒了。 阿：仅仅没有占据，是不够的。 克：当然。许多人的头脑中没有被占据，却也一天天变得更加沉闷。 但问题是为什么你的头脑想要被占据？如果不占据，它会睡觉吗？ 或者，对空虚的恐惧使头脑想要被占据？
I am enquiring. In enquiry the mind will not go to sleep. It is only the mind that is not occupied which can enquire. So most of us fall into habits which prevent looking. I am a Hindu and for the rest of my life I am a Hindu. You are a Muslim and for the rest of your life you are a Muslim. But if I ask myself why I am a Hindu, I open the door to enquiry. So naming may be part of this fear of not knowing what to do.
我正在询问。在调查中，这颗头脑不会入睡。只有没被占据的头脑才能调查。 因此，我们大多数人都养成了习惯，这就阻止了看。 我是印度教徒，在我的余生中，我都是印度教徒。你是穆斯林，在你的余生中，你都是穆斯林。 但是，如果我问自己为什么我是印度教徒，我就会打开调查的大门。 因此，命名可能是这种不知道该怎么做的恐惧的一部分。
A: Fear of leaving the shore of the known. K: That is all. So, can the mind, the brain cells, can they observe the reaction called anger, not name it and so be finished with it? If it does that, there is no carrying over. When next time the reaction arises, which I have named as fear, it has quite a different meaning, a different quality. A: Our difficulty is that we meet anger with idea.
阿：害怕离开已知的此岸。 克：就是如此。 那么，这颗头脑，这些脑细胞们，他们能观察这个被称为愤怒的反应，而不命名它，并结束它吗？ 如果它这么做，就没有携带。 当下一次这种反应升起时，也就是我命名为‘愤怒’的那个，它就有一种完全不同的意义、一种不同的品质。 阿：我们的困难在于我们用观念来应对愤怒。
K: Why have we ideas, formulas? Let us begin again - we know anger, the naming, the conditioned response. Now, we see naming is a factor which gives continuity to anger. I see the truth that by naming we give continuity. So I do not name. As I see the danger of the snake and do not touch it, I do not touch this also. I see that the naming of the fact gives continuity to something which I have called anger and so naming gives duration. So naming is finished. Therefore, anger undergoes a change.
克：为什么我们有观念，有公式？ 让我们重新来 —— 我们知道愤怒、命名、受局限的反应。 现在，我们看到，命名是使愤怒得以延续的一个因子。 我看到这种真实性：通过命名，我赋予了延续性。因此我不去命名。 因为我看到蛇的危险而不碰它，所以我也不碰这。 我看到，命名的这种事实赋予某个东西以延续性 —— 那个我称之为‘愤怒’的东西，从而产生出时间的延展。 所以命名终结了。因此，愤怒经历一种变化。
R: It seems as if during the moment when we are capable of observing anger, anger disappears, and anger exists in the moment when we are not capable of observing. K: No. You call me a fool. I get angry. I do not like your calling me a fool. I see that. I see the falsity of naming. So where is the response? This instantly happens. Instead of naming, this happens and therefore, there is no hurt at all. "A"'s question is why do we have formulas at all. We have ideas first and then perception, action.
拉：好像在我们有能力观察愤怒的那一刻，愤怒就消失了， 愤怒存在于我们无法观察的那一刻。 克：不是。你说我是傻瓜。我很生气。我不喜欢你叫我傻瓜。我看见那。 我看到了命名的虚假性。那么回应在哪里呢？ 这瞬间地触发。而不是命名，这种情况发生，因此，根本没有伤害。 阿克尤特的问题是，我们为什么会有公式。我们首先有观念，然后感知，行动。
A: Instead of one act of perception we have our deep conditioning. All these together, the cultural, the sociological, the anthropological - are a ready frame of reference which give us a sense of security. K: Why do you do this, Sir? R: We have been brought up that way.
阿：我们有着很深的局限，而不能产生感知行为。 文化、社会和人类的遗传，所有这些 —— 是一个现成的参照系，给我们一种安全感。 克：先生，你为什么要这样做？ 拉：我们就是这样长大的。
K: That is not good enough. Do you not know why we do this? We know economically and sociologically it is beneficial. Tribalism still persists. It is tremendously important. Step out of the formulas, patterns of Hinduism, Islam, you will then see what happens. Personally, I have no formula. Why do you have it? Find out. Formulations, which are patterns, give you safe conduct in action. We lay down the line according to which we act and in that there is safety. So fear of insecurity must be one of the reasons why we have formulas, ideas. The mind wants to be certain. The brain cells function perfectly only when there is complete security. I do not know if you have noticed it in yourself. The brain cells function only when there is perfect order. And there is perfect order in a formula.
克：那还不够好。你不知道我们为什么要这样做吗？我们知道，从经济和社会学上讲，这是有益的。 部落主义仍然存在。它极其重要。 走出印度教、伊斯兰教的公式和规则，你会看到发生什么。 就个人而言，我没有公式。你为什么会有它？找出来。 公式化，也就是规则，在行为上为您提供安全的指导。 我们制定我们行动所依据的路线，那样就安全了。 因此，对不安全的恐惧必定是我们抱有公式和观念的原因之一。头脑想去确定。 只有在彻底安全的时候，脑细胞们才能完美地运作。 我不知道你自己有没有注意到它。 只有出现了完美的秩序，脑细胞们才能发挥作用。而在公式中，有完美的秩序。
A: You mean physiologically, we have an inbuilt desire for order. K: Even physiologically, if I do not have a certain type of order, the organism rebels. Order is absolutely necessary, essential. Formulas are the safest way to have order. Have you not noticed that before you go to sleep, the brain cells establish order? "I should not have done this, I should not have said this." And when going to sleep, unless you establish order, it creates its own order. These are all facts.
阿：你的意思是，从生理上讲，我们对秩序有一种内在的渴望。 克：即使在生理上，如果你没有某种秩序，有机体就会反抗。 秩序是绝对必要的，必不可少的。公式是实现秩序的最安全的方式。 难道你没有注意到，在你睡觉之前，脑细胞会建立秩序吗？ “我不应该这样做，我不应该这么说。” 睡觉时，除非你建立秩序，否则它会创造它自己的秩序。这些都是事实。
The brain cells demand order which is security. And formulas are one of the safest ways of conducting one's life without disorder. It is much safer to follow a guru. Formulas are necessary for a mind that wants order, that hopes to find order. What happens? As it hopes to find order in tribalism - the Brahmin tribe, the Hindu tribe, the national tribe - and if you step out of that, there is danger. So to call oneself an Indian is to be safe. To belong to Jehovah, is to be treated as one belonging to that group. As long as I belong to some sect, some guru, I am safe. Now what happens when you have a formula?
脑细胞们需要秩序，也就是安全。 而公式化是最安全的生活方式之一，可以指导一个人不紊乱地生活。 它比跟随上师要安全得多。 对于一个想要秩序、希望找到秩序的头脑来说，公式化是必要的。在发生什么？ 因为它希望在部落主义中找到秩序 —— 婆罗门部落、印度教部落、民族部落 —— 如果你走出来，就会有危险。因此，称自己是印度人就安全了。 属于耶和华，就是被视为属于该群体的人。 只要我属于某个宗派，某个上师，我就安全了。 现在，当您拥有公式时,在发生什么？
You have your formulas and I have my formulas. You have your security, and I who have no time, accept it. What happens to me when I accept your formula? Do you not know what happens when I am a Hindu? There is division, therefore insecurity. The brain cells demand order, because they want to have harmony. They use formulas as a means to order. The brain cells demand order, demand security, otherwise they cannot function properly. Seeking order through formula creates division, disorder. Once I see the real danger, then what happens? Then I do not seek safety in formula, then I enquire whether there is safety in any other direction, whether there is such a thing as safety.
你有你的一套公式，我有我的一套。 你有你的安全，而没有时间的我，接受它。当我接受你的公式时，我发生了什么？ 你不知道吗？当我是印度教徒时，发生了什么？出现了分裂，因此不安全。 脑细胞们需要秩序，因为它们想要和谐。他们使用公式作实现秩序的手段。 脑细胞们需要秩序，需要安全，否则它们就无法正常运作。 通过公式寻求秩序，创造出分裂，失序。 一旦我看到这真实的危险，那么，在发生什么？ 我不在公式中寻求安全， 然后我问：其他方向是否有安全，是否有一个叫‘安全’的这种东西。
A: But the brain needs safety. K: The brain must have order. A: Order is not safety. K: Order is safety, order is harmony, but the very search for order ends in disorder. So, seeing this, I drop all formulas. I am no longer a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Muslim. Drop all this. Dropping is intelligence. In the very dropping the mind has become very intelligent. Intelligence is order. I do not know if you see this.
阿：但是大脑需要安全。 克：头脑必须有秩序。 阿：秩序不是安全。 克：秩序就是安全，秩序是和谐，但是对秩序的追求却以失序告终。 所以，看到这，我放弃了所有的公式。我不再是印度教徒、佛教徒、穆斯林。 放下这一切。放弃是智慧。在放下的过程中，头脑变得非常聪明。 智慧就是秩序。我不知道你是否看到这一点。
In enlightenment there is order. Therefore, the brain can function in perfect condition. Then relationship has quite a different meaning. The brain cells are seeking order in disorder. They do not see the nature of disorder. They do not understand what is disorder. It is when the brain cells reject tribalism, formulas, that in the very rejection is inte1ligence, which is order.
在觉悟中，有秩序。因此，这颗脑袋能在完美的状态下运作。 那么关系就有了完全不同的意义。 脑细胞们在失序中寻求秩序。他们看不到失序的本质。 他们不明白什么是失序。 当脑细胞拒绝部落主义，公式时，拒绝本身就是智慧，也就是秩序。
A: I think we should go into the question of perception of beauty. You said the other day that the tradition had ignored the field of beauty. We need to explore into this. K: So what is the question? What is beauty? You mean perception and then beauty? Surely it is not perception and beauty, but perception. What would be the traditional approach to this?
阿：我认为我们应该谈谈对美的感知问题。 前几天，你说传统忽视了美。我们需要对此进行探索。 克：那么问题是什么呢？什么是美？你是说感知，然后是美？ 当然，它不是感知和美，而是感知。关于美，传统的处理方法是什么？
R: One source of tradition maintains that beauty is the sense of happiness which comes when there is the ending of desire or thirst for experience. K: Is this a theory or a reality? R: The writer expressed what he felt; after all, he wrote a long time ago and only fragments of his writings remain. A: Kalidasa says that the experience of beauty is new every moment. R: Both in India and Greece there was this feeling that ultimate perceptions are perceptions of beauty, truth and goodness.
拉：传统上的一种说法坚持认为， 当欲望或对体验的渴望结束时，出现幸福感，那就是美。 克：这是理论还是现实？ 拉：作者表达了他的感受；毕竟，他的作品是很久以前写的，现在只剩下一些片段了。 阿：卡利达萨说，美的体验每时每刻都是新的。 拉；在印度和希腊，都有这样一种感觉: 终极的感知是对美、真和善的感知。
K: Are we discussing beauty or perception? We will discuss perception. What is the traditional approach to perception? R: They talk about it at length and there are many contradictory viewpoints. A: Perception is 'pratyaksham', perception is seeing the self-nature of things, the essential quality of things. K: Seeing the essence of something is perception, is that it? I am talking not of what you see but the act of seeing. Do they talk about the act of seeing and not what is seen?
克：我们是在讨论美还是感知？我们将讨论感知。传统的感知方法是什么？ 拉：他们详细地谈论了这个问题，有很多相互矛盾的观点。 阿：感知是“般若”，感知是看见事物的自然性质，是事物的基本品质。 克：看到事物的本质就是感知，是吗？ 我说的不是你所看到的，而是这种看的行为。 他们谈论的是‘看’的动作，而不是看到的东西吗？
R: They talk of what is valid knowledge and what is not valid knowledge. K: Seeing is one thing and seeing something is another. Which is it they are talking about? Seeing per se or seeing something, which is it? A: I think seeing. They are concerned with the constant danger of seeing wrongly. K: No. We are not talking of seeing rightly or wrongly, but what is perception; not what you see - the chair, the rope, the snake,
拉：他们谈论的是，什么是有效的知识，什么是无效的知识。 克：看是一回事，看到的东西是另一回事。 他们在谈论哪个？看，还是看到的东西？是哪一个？ 阿：我认为是‘看’。他们担心的是‘错误地看’所产生的持续性的危险。 克：不。我们不是在谈论正确或错误地‘看’，而是在谈论什么是感知； 不是您所看到的 —— 椅子、绳子、蛇、
A: Is there a difference between seeing and knowing? K: Seeing, knowing and seeing the object; seeing through knowledge the object, the image, the symbol; and seeing - these are entirely different. What do they say about seeing? R: They do not discuss it this way.
阿：‘看’和‘知道’有区别吗？ 克：看，知道和看见这个对象； 通过知识来看对象，这个形象，这种符号；以及看 —— 是完全不同的。 关于看，他们怎么说？ 拉：他们没有以这种方式讨论过。
K: Like hunger is in itself: it is not related to food. You have food because you are hungry, but the nature of hunger is hunger. What is seeing, perceiving to you? Not seeing the object, but the quality of the mind that perceives? Seeing the object with the eyes is one thing, seeing with knowledge is another. I am talking about seeing in itself. Is there a seeing without knowledge, without the object? I see that cupboard. Seeing that is with word and knowledge, the word being associated with the cupboard. Is there a seeing without the image, without the object? Seeing the object through knowledge, through image, symbol, the word, the intellect; and seeing without knowledge and image, a seeing without object.
克：就像饥饿本身一样：它与食物无关。 你拿食物是因为你饿了，但饥饿的性质是饥饿。 对你来说，什么是看，感知？ 不是看这个对象，而是在感知的头脑的品质？ 用眼睛看对象是一回事，用知识看是另一回事。 我在说看本身。存在着没有知识，没有对象的看吗？ 我看到那个碗柜。在看的时候，携带着与碗柜相联系的词语和知识。 存在着没有形象，没有对象的看吗？ 通过知识，通过形象，符号，文字，智力来看对象； 没有知识和形象的看，没有对象的看。
A: What is seeing without object? One can see without knowledge. As you say, there is a cupboard without the image but still we know it is a cupboard, which means it is an object. K: There is the little bush, and whether I see it or not, it will grow into a tree. It is independent of my seeing. I can call it mango and, therefore, associate it with the species mango, and the mango will grow even if I do not see it. R: The existence of it has nothing to do with seeing...... A: The object exists without our seeing, but such a perception may exist without the object. K: That tree continues to exist.
阿：什么是没有对象的看？一个人能够不带着知识去看。 正如你所说，那儿有一个碗柜。即使我们没有关于碗柜的形象，它也在那里。那意味着它是一个客观的对象。 克：这是一颗小树苗，不管我看不看，它都会长成一棵树。它独立于我的看。 我可以称它为芒果，因此，将它与芒果这个物种联系起来，即使我不看它，这颗芒果树也会生长。 拉：它的存在与看无关…… 阿：没有我们的看，那个对象依然存在；但是没有那个对象，也可能有这种感知。 克：那棵树一直存在。
A: In the Buddhist meditation they have referred to sky when they ta1k about perception without object. The sky is an object and yet not an object. K: The dictionary meaning of the word "perception" is to become aware of, to apprehend. That is, you see the cupboard, you have a preconception of it; that is not perception. Is there seeing without preconception? Only the mind that has no conclusion, such a mind can see. The other cannot. If I have previous knowledge of that cupboard, the mind identifies it as cupboard. To look at that cupboard without the previous accumulation of prejudices or hurts, is to look. If I have previous hurts, memories, pain, pleasure, displeasure, I have not looked.
阿：在佛教徒的打坐中，当他们谈到与对象无关的感知时，他们指的是天空。 天空是一个对象，又不是一个对象。 克：在字典中，‘感知’这个词的含义是‘觉察，捕捉’。 也就是说，你看到碗柜，你事先对它有一个成见；那不是感知。 存在着没有成见的看吗？唯有那颗没有结论的头脑，这样的头脑才能看。别的不能。 如果我有关于那个碗柜的、以前的知识，这颗头脑就会把它识别为碗柜。 去看那个碗柜而没有以前积累的偏见或伤害，就是看。 如果我有以前的伤害，记忆，痛苦，快乐，不快乐，我就没有看。
Is there a looking without object, without the knowledge of the object? Of course, there is. Can you look at that tree, without the knowledge of the bush, the image, the symbol, and all the rest of it? Just look. Someone came to see me. He was a movie director. He had taken LSD, and they had tape recorded it. He was sitting back in a chair and waited for the effect. Nothing happened. He waited and moved his position a little. Immediately the space between him and the object disappeared. The observer before had space between himself and the thing he observed, which happened to be a flower. The moment space disappeared, it was not the flower, it was something extraordinary. That was an effect of the drug. But here it is different. The space between the observer and observed is not; the observer is the holder of the knowledge and it is knowledge that recognizes the cupboard. It is the observer who sees the cupboard.
存在着没有对象，没有相知识识的看吗？当然有。 在没有关于灌木的知识、没有形象、符号和所有其他的东西的情况下，你能看那棵树吗？只是看。 有人来看我。他是一名电影导演。他服用了LSD，他们用磁带记录了下来。 他坐回椅子上，等待着效果。什么也没发生。 他等了一会儿，稍微移动了一下他的位置。突然间，他和对象之间的空间立刻消失了。 之前的观察者在他和他所观察的东西之间有空间，这东西恰好是一朵花。 空间消失的那一刻，它不是这朵花，而是某个非凡的东西。 那是药物的效果。但这里不同。 观察者和被观察者之间的空间没有； 观察者是知识的持有者，是知识认出了这个碗柜。 而看到碗柜的，是观察者。
First see what happens. The observer with his knowledge recognizes the cupboard. Recognition implies previous knowledge. So the observer is knowledge as the past. Now we are asking, is there perception without the observer, that is knowledge, which is the past? Perception for itself, not for or about something.
首先看看发生了什么。具有知识的观察者认出了橱柜。认识意味着先前的知识。 所以观察者就是知识，也就是过去。 现在我们问，存在着没有观察者的感知吗？ 感知本身，而不是为了某个东西或关于某个东西。
R: If the knowledge of the past is not there, the observer is not there. If the observer is not there, knowledge of the past is not there. K: Therefore, it is possib1e to see without the observer. I am saying "possible". The possibility becomes a theory, therefore we should not deal with theories but see that the observer is the residue of the past. So the observer cannot possibly see. He can see only through the screen of the past. Therefore, his seeing is partial. If there is to be perception, the observer must not be there. Is that possible?
拉：如果过去的知识不存在，那么观察者就不存在。 如果观察者不在，那么过去的知识也不存在。 克：因此，有可能在没有观察者的情况下看。我说的是“可能”。 可能性成为了一种理论， 因此，我们不应该处理理论，而是看到观察者就是过去的残余。 所以观察者不可能看到。他只能透过过去的屏幕看到。 因此，他的看是片面的。如果要有感知，观察者就不能在那里。那可能吗？
R: What happens to an artist? He perceives obviously with a perception which is not the ordinary perception which we have. K: Now wait a minute. Is perception intellectual? R: No, the intellect is the past. K: Therefore, it is not the seeing of an artist or the non-artist, but the seeing without the past. That is really the problem. The artist may see for a moment without the past but he translates it.
拉：艺术家会怎样？他显然不是以一种普通的知觉在感知。 克：等一下，感知是智力上的吗? 拉：不，智力是过去。 克：因此，不是艺术家或非艺术家的看，而是没有过去的看。 这才是真正的问题所在。艺术家可能会没有过去的看一会儿，但他翻译它。
R.: It is a momentary perception. K: Is there an act of perception, without the observer? Act means immediate action, not a continuous action? And the word itself, "act", means doing, not having done or will do. So, perception is an action, not in terms of knowledge; not the action of the actor with his knowledge. So the professionals are not concerned with action, are they? They are concerned with knowledge and action. Is that right? R: I do not know. There are some texts in which they have said that the perception of beauty is that moment when time, name, form and space do not exist.
拉：那是一种短暂的感知。 克：没有观察者，有感知行动吗？行动意味着即刻的行为，而不是持续的行为。 这个词本身，‘行动’，意味着做，不是做了或将要做。 因此，感知是一种行为，不是知识，不是演员根据剧本知识而做出的那种行为。 拉：我不知道。在一些文献中，他们说 对美的感知是时间、名称、形式和空间不存在的那一刻。
K: We are not talking of beauty. Perception implies action. I know what action is when the observer acts. The observer, having learnt a particular language or technology, having acquired knowledge, acts. A: Does perception mean direct contact between organ and object, between the sense-organ and object? R: Traditionalists talk about mediate and immediate perception. Mediate perception is through the instrument, through a medium, whereas immediate perception does not require the sense-organ with which to see. Perhaps immediate perception is nearer to what you are talking about. K: You see the perception of knowledge and action, is action from the past. That is one thing. Perception, action is another. A: Perception itself is action, so there is no time.
克：我们不是在谈论美。感知意味着行动。 我知道观察者在行动的那种行为。 这位观察者，学会了特定的语言或技术，获得了知识，在行动。 阿：感知是否意味着感官与对象之间的直接接触？ 拉：传统主义者谈论间接感知和直接感知。 间接感知通过工具或媒介，而直接感知则不用感官。 也许直接感知更接近你所说的。 克：你看，通过知识而感知并行动，是一种源于过去的行动，这是一种。 感知，行动，这是另一种。 阿：感知本身就是行动，所以没有时间。
K: The time interval comes to an end between action and knowledge, knowledge as the observer. That knowledge and action is time-binding and the other is not. So this is clear. Then what is beauty in relation to perception? R: It is the ending of the desire for experience. This is what the traditionalists. K: The seeing of goodness, beauty, love, truth, put all that aside. Now what is beauty? What is necessary for the perceiving of beauty? R: It is not mere perception, because perception can be of everything, even of that which is not beautiful.
克：在行动和知识之间的时间间隔走到了尽头 —— 这里的知识，就是指观察者。 知识和行动并绑定在时间上，而另一种则没有。 所以看清这。那么，与感知相关的美是什么？ 拉：是对体验的渴望的终结。那是传统主义者所认为的。 克：看到善良、美、爱、真理，把这些都放在一边。 现在，什么是美？要感知美，什么是必要的？ 拉：它不仅仅是感知，因为感知属于一切，即使那是不美的。
K: Do not bring in the ugly. Perception is acting, perceiving is acting - leave that. We are talking of beauty. You have said what the professionals have said. Now, what is beauty? Let us forget what others have said. I want to find out what is beauty. We say that building is beautiful, that poem is beautiful, that woman is beautiful. The feeling of a certain quality is beauty - the expression becoming the means of recognition of beauty. I see a building, and say how marvellous. So through the object we recognize beauty.
克：不要引入‘丑’。 感知是行为。感知是行动 —— 离开那里。我们在探讨美。 你已经说了专家们的说法。现在，什么是美？ 让我们忘记别人说过的话。我想找出什么是美。 我们说建筑是美丽的，那首诗是美丽的，那个女人是美丽的。 某种品质的感觉就是美 —— 这种表达成为认识美的手段。 我看到一栋建筑，说多么奇妙。因此，通过这个对象，我们认出美。
There are various expressions of beauty. Through the object we say that is beautiful. Through the object, we recognize what beauty is. Now put that aside. Beauty is not expression. Beauty is not the object. What is beauty then? Is it in the beholder? The beholder is the observer. The observer with his past knowledge recognizes something to be beautiful, because his culture has told him it is beautiful, his culture has conditioned him.
有各种各样的美的表现形式。通过这个对象，我们说它是美丽的。 通过对象，我们认识到什么是美。 现在把它放在一边。美不是表达。美不是这个对象。 那么美是什么呢？是在旁观者身上吗？旁观者是观察者。 观察者携带着他过去的知识，识别出某个东西是美丽的， 因为他的文化告诉他这是美丽的，他的文化已经制约了他。
A: The woman who gives pleasure is beautiful, and when she does not give pleasure, she is no longer beautiful. K: I discard expression, I discard the object created and I discard the perceiver seeing beauty in the object. I discard all these. Then what is the quality of the mind that has discarded them? I have discarded everything that man has said about beauty because I see it is not in anything that has been said. What has happened to the mind which has discarded thought, thought which has created the object? What is the quality of the mind which has discarded all the structures put together by man who has said this is beautiful, this is not beautiful:
阿：给人带来快乐的女人是美丽的，而当她不能给人带来快乐时，她就不再美丽。 克：我抛弃表达，我抛弃创造出的对象，我抛弃感知者在对象中看到的美。 我抛弃所有这些。那么，抛掉它们的这颗头脑的品质是什么？ 我抛弃了人关于美的一切说法，因为我看到它不在那些说法中。 对于那颗抛弃了思想，抛弃了对象所创造的思想的头脑，什么发生了？ 抛弃了所有那些被称为美的或不美的人造品的头脑， 有着什么样的品质？
Obviously the mind is very sensitive, because it was carrying a burden before and now it is lighter. Therefore, it is sensitive, alert, awake. R: You said you have discarded the object and the thought which has created the object. A: Thought is knowledge.
显然，这样的头脑非常敏感，因为它以前背着包袱，而现在变轻了许多。 因此，它是敏感的、警觉的、清醒的。 拉：你说你抛弃了对象和对象创造出的思想。 阿：思想就是知识。
K: Thought is knowledge, which has accumulated through knowledge, through culture which says beauty is this. Thought is the response of memory which has created the object. I have discarded all that, the idea of beauty as truth, goodness, love. Perception of that is action and the action is the putting away, not "I am putting away", but the putting away. So the mind is now free.
克：思想就是知识，它通过知识积累起来，通过文化积累起来，文化说美就是这个。 思想是记忆的回应，而记忆是由对象所创造的。 我已经抛弃了所有那些，那些被当作是美的真、善、爱的观念。 那种感知就是行动，行动就是抛弃，不是“我在抛弃”，而是抛弃这个动作。 所以头脑现在是自由的。
Freedom implies not freedom from something, but freedom. It is highly sensitive. Then what takes place? The mind is free, highly sensitive, is no longer burdened by the past; which means in that mind there is no observer at all; which means there is no "me" observing, because the "me" observing is a very, very limited affair. The "me", the past, is the observer, the "me" is the past.
自由意味着不是从某个东西中解脱，而是自由。它非常灵敏。然后，发生什么？ 这颗头脑是自由的，高度灵敏的，不再被过去的负担所压住； 也就是意味着，在那个头脑中根本没有观察者； 也就是意味着没有‘我’观察，因为这个‘我’观察是一个非常非常局限的事件。 这位‘我’，这个过去，就是观察者，‘我’就是过去。
See what we have done. There is object, knowledge and perception; through knowledge we recognize the object; and we are asking the question, is there perception without knowledge, without the observer? So we discard the two: object and knowledge. In perceiving there is the action of discarding. Again we ask what is beauty? Beauty is generally associated with object; the object created by thought, feeling, thinking. And we discard that.
看看我们做了什么。 这里有对象、知识和感知；通过知识我们识别对象。 我们问这个问题: 没有了知识，没有了观察者，有感知吗？ 所以我们抛弃了两者：对象和知识。在感知中，有抛弃的行为。 我们再问什么是美？ 美通常与对象有关；对象被思想、感觉、思考创造。 我们抛弃了它。
Then I ask myself what is the quality of the mind that has discarded. It is really free. Freedom implies a mind that is highly sensitive. In the action of discarding, it has brought about its own sensitivity, which means there is no centre in that activity. Therefore, it is a sensitivity without time, without a centre as the observer, which means a state of mind that is intensely passionate.
然后我问自己: 抛弃了那些的头脑的品质是什么？它是真正的自由。 自由意味着一个高度敏感的头脑。 在抛弃的行为中，它带来了自身的灵敏，意味着在活动中没有中心。 因此，它是一种没有时间、没有被称之为观察者的中心的灵敏， 也就是头脑处于一种充满激情的状态。
R: When the object and the knowledge of the object are gone, there is no focus. K: Do not use the word focus. The mind discarding what "it is not", is free. The act of perceiving what "it is not" has released the mind and the mind is free. It is not free from it, it is not free from the object, but it is free. A: The act of perceiving and discarding of that knowledge are instantaneous and simultaneous.
拉：当对象和对象的知识消失时，就没有焦点了。 克：别使用‘焦点’这个词。正在抛弃‘它不是’的头脑，是自由的。 感知到‘它不是’的行为解放了这颗头脑，头脑是自由的。 它不是从中解放，不是从任何对象中解脱，它就是自由。 阿：感知和抛弃这些知识的行为是即刻的、同时的。
K: That is freedom. The act of perceiving has brought about freedom, not from something. When the mind is sensitive, there is no centre, there is no "me" in it, there is the total abandonment of the self as the observer. Then the mind is full of energy because it is no longer caught in the division of sorrow, pain and pleasure. It is intensely passionate and it is such a mind that sees what is beautiful.
克：那就是自由。感知的行为带来了自由，而不是来自于某物。 当头脑敏感时，没有中心，没有‘我’，完全放弃了作为观察者的自我。 然后，头脑充满能量，因为它不再陷入悲伤、痛苦和快乐的分裂中。 它是强烈的激情，正是这样一颗头脑看见什么是美。
I see something: which is, suffering is a partial activity of energy. It is a fragmentary energy. Energy is pleasure, energy is pain; to go to the office, to learn is energy. Human beings have divided this energy into fragments. Everything is a part, is a fragment of the various other fragments of energy. When there is no activity of the fragment, there is complete focussing of all energy.
我看到了一些东西：也就是，受苦是能量的部分活动。它是一种零碎的能量。 能量是快乐，能量是痛苦；去办公室，学习是能量。 人类将这种能量分成了碎片。 一切都是某一部分，是属于其余各种能量碎片的碎片。 当碎片没有活动时，所有能量都完全地聚焦。
I hate somebody and I love somebody. Both are energy - fragmentary energy acting in opposite directions - which breed conflict. Suffering is a form of energy; a fragment which we call suffering. So all our ways of 1iving are fragmented. Each is fighting the other. If there is a harmonious whole, that energy is passion. So that energy is this, is the mind that is free, sensitive, in which the "me" as the past is completely dissolved and, therefore, such a mind is full of energy and passion, and therefore that is beauty.
我恨一个人，我爱一个人。 两者都是能量 —— 在相反的方向上起作用的零碎的能量 —— 滋生出冲突。 受苦是一种能量；一片被我们称之为受苦的碎片。 因此，我们所有的生活方式都是支离破碎的。彼此都在相互战斗。 如果有一个和谐的整体，那种能量就是激情。 所以能量就是这，是自由的、灵敏的头脑，其中作为过去的‘我’被完全溶解了， 因此，这样的头脑充满了能量和激情，因此那就是美。
A: After listening to yesterday's talk, I wonder what is meant by energy? We only know fragmentary energy. K: Would you put it differently? Would you say that all energy is fragmented? A: If I hear your talk and I look at all the fields of my activity, I seem to know nothing but fragmentary energy. K: That is energy which is fragmented.
阿：听了昨天的讲话，我想知道能量是什么意思？我们只知道零碎的能量。 克：你愿意换个说法吗？你是在说，所有的能量都是碎片化的吗？ 阿：如果我听了你的讲话，看看我活动的所有领域，我似乎只知道零碎的能量。 克：那是碎片化的能量。
A: In observation I see that I know only fragmented energy and I do not know what you are talking about. K: There is physical energy, intellectual energy, emotional energy, there is the energy of anger, of greed; they are all various forms of energy, like human energy and cosmic energy. They are all divided, but they are energy.
阿：在观察中，我看到我只知道零碎的能量，我不知道你在说什么。 克：有身体的能量、智力的能量、情感的能量， 还有愤怒的能量、贪婪的能量；它们是各种形式的能量，就像人类的能量和宇宙的能量一样。 它们都是分裂的，但它们是能量。
A: I listen to you, but I never seem to come upon what you say. K: Traditionally it has been said sexual energy must be controlled. A: Traditionalists hold that unless all dissipations of energy are halted, one will never know the "other". It does not seem to be that way. Between suppression and the negation you speak about, there is no relationship. The truth is I only know fragmented energy.
阿：我听你说话，可我似乎从来碰见你所说的东西。 克：传统上说必须控制性能量。 阿：传统主义者认为，除非停止所有能量的耗散，否则一个人永远不会知道“另一个”。 似乎不是那样。在压抑和你所说的否定之间，两者没有关系。 事实上，我只知道零碎的能量。
K: It may be the traditional approach that holds us to a particular pattern, to that energy which is fragmentary. A: It may be because every form of energy we know is destructive. Our intellectual energy creates systems and patterns; our emotional energy is reaction against individuals. K: Yesterday did the speaker not say that all energy springs from one source of energy?
克：可能是传统的方法将我们捆绑在一种特定的模式上，一种碎片化的能量。 阿：这可能是因为我们知道的每一种能量都是破坏性的。 我们的智力能量创造出系统和模式；我们的情感能量是对他人的情绪反应。 克：昨天，讲话人说过所有的能量都来自于一个源头吗？
A: What you are saying comes from a different source. And you say that the function of the intellect is to see that intellect itself is fragmentary and, therefore, it is inadequate. When the intellect sees its inadequacy, that is the highest truth the intellect can perceive. It is only when you come to this that there is the "other". All that we seem to know is the fragmentary, and you speak of something else.
阿：是的，你说来自于一个不同的源头。 你说智力的功能是看到智力本身是零碎的，因此，它是不足的。 当智力看到它的不足时，那就是智力所能感知到的最高真理。 只有当你到达这一步时，才会有“另一个”。 我们似乎只知道那零碎的，而你所说的是别的东西。
K: Then what will you do? How do you stop the fragmentation of energy? A: I would not say how, because that action itself is a becoming process. K: Then what will you do? How do the professionals, the traditionalists, approach this problem - the problem of various forms of energy contradicting each other and one form of energy assuming the dictatorship of the rest, trying to control, to suppress? Does this happen by introducing the atman?
克：那你会怎么做？你如何阻止能量的碎片化？ 阿：我不会说怎么做，因为行动本身就是一个成为的过程。 克：那你会怎么做？ 专业人士，传统主义者，如何处理这个问题？ —— 各种形式的能量相互冲撞，某种形式的能量自以为是其它能量的老大，试图去控制、压制。 这是出于‘真我’的引入而产生的吗？
A: It is shunyata, voidness. Having eliminated, this is a void. In the void is everything. Did you come to this spontaneously? K: What do the professionals say? A: Sankara says: "Acquire learning and the prestige that goes with it, so what? Acquire wealth and the power that goes with it, so what? Visit many countries, feed and entertain your friends, help the poor and the sick, bathe in the Ganga, give alms in vast quantities, repeat mantras by the million, etc., so what? All these are of no avail unless the Self is realized." And Sankara ends by saying that only he who discovers that all these forms of prestigious action are bereft of significance for self-knowledge, he alone is capable of self-realization.
阿：这是苏尼亚塔，虚无。消除之后，这是空无。 一切都在虚无中。你是自发到达的吗？ 克：专业人士怎么说？ 阿：商羯罗说:“获得学习和随之而来的声望，那又怎样？ 获得财富和随之而来的权力，那又怎样？ 访问许多国家，喂养和娱乐您的朋友，帮助穷人和病人， 沐浴恒河，大量施舍，重复百万次咒语等等，那又怎样？ 除非自我得到实现，否则所有这些都无济于事。” 商羯罗最后说，只有当他发现 对于自我认识而言，所有这些形式上的、有声望的行动都是无意义的， 他才能独立地自我实现。
K: I cannot imagine that this question has not been tackled by the professionals. A: They call it chitta and chaitanya. The common "root" is "chit". N: Chit is consciousness. A: Do they go into the fragmentary nature of the mind or do they say that the mind's activities are unreal? K: So, what is the question, what is it that we are trying to discuss, explore?
克：我无法想象这个问题没有被专业人士解决。 阿：他们叫它chitta和chitanya。共同的词根是‘chit’。 N：Chit就是意识。 阿：他们是进入到头脑的破碎性，还是说头脑的活动是不真实的？ 克：那么，问题是什么？我们试图讨论和探索的是什么？
A: We only know the various fragmented expressions of energy. Is it possible to see the entire field? Or is it a wrong question? K: If one fragment or many fragments exist, who is the entity that is going to observe the totality of energy? Are our minds so conditioned that we cannot break ourselves from the conditioning? A: We are so conditioned.
阿：我们只知道能量的各种碎片化。是否可以看到整个领域？还是它是一个错误的问题？ 克：如果存在一个碎片或多个碎片，那么谁来观察到能量的整体？ 我们的头脑是否被制约得无法摆脱这种制约？ 阿：我们是如此的受限。
R: The other day at the discussion you said that someone slaps me. I feel hurt, etc., but if attention is given at that moment, then I do not feel hurt. There is no recording of it. But the fact is, reaction is instantaneous. I react to that hurt instantaneously. How is it possible to give attention at that moment?
拉：前几天的讨论中，你说有人打了我一巴掌。我感受到伤害，等等， 但如果在那一刻给予关注，那么我就不会感到受伤。 没有关于它的记录。但事实是，反应是瞬间的。我一瞬间就对这种伤害做出了反应。 在那一刻，怎么可能给予关注？
K: What is the problem? I have been seeing only this fragment (pointing to a portion of the carpet) and you say this fragment would not exist if there was no total carpet. There is this little bit of carpet which is part of this whole carpet. I am saying in this fragment there are many other fragments.
克：问题出在哪里？我一直只看到这一块地毯（指向地毯的一部分） 你说如果没有完整的地毯，这一块就不会存在。 这一块地毯是整个地毯的一部分。 我要说的是，在这个片段中还有许多其它的片段。
My whole life has been spent in observing the fragment. You come along and say this is part of the whole, this would not exist if the other did not exist. But I cannot take my eyes off this fragment. I agree that this can only exist because of the whole carpet but I have never, never looked at the whole carpet. I have never moved away from this.
我的一生都在观察这块碎片。 你走过来，说这是整体的一部分，如果另一个不存在，这一块就不会存在。 但我无法将视线从这块碎片上移开。 我同意它的存在是因为有整块地毯，但我从来没有见过整块地毯。 我从未离开过这片区域。
This fragment exists because of the whole carpet. My attention has been fixed on this little bit of carpet. And I do not know how to remove my eyes and look at the whole carpet. If I can do that, there is no contradiction. If I can remove my eyes and look at the whole carpet, I see there is no contradiction, no duality. But if I say I must suppress the fragment in order to see the whole, there is duality.
这个碎片的存在是因为整个地毯。我的注意力一直集中在这一小块地毯上。 而且我不知道如何移开我的眼睛，去看整块地毯。 如果我能做到这一点，那就没有了矛盾。 如果我能移开眼睛，看看整个地毯，我发现没有矛盾，没有二元性。 但是，如果我说我必须压制碎片才能看到整体，那就是二元性。
R: It is intellectually clear. K: It is a very good exercise. Then what do you do? The intellect is also a part. It is one of the fragments within the carpet. I am still not looking at the carpet. If intellect sees, perception is back to the fragment. First, intellectually I have to understand what is being said. This is part of the whole. And as long as perception is focused on the fragment, there is no perception of the whole carpet. You say I understand this intellectually. So, you have already moved away. You also see that intellect is a fragment. You are looking at the whole with different parts. R: What is looking is also a fragment.
拉：理智上很清楚。 克：这是一个很好的练习。那你怎么办？ 智力也是一部分。它是地毯内的碎片之一。我仍然没有看地毯。 如果智力在看，感知就会回到这块碎片上。 首先，在理智上，我必须理解所说的内容。这是整体的一部分。 而且只要感知集中在这块碎片上，就没有对整个地毯的感知。 你说我在理智上理解这一点。所以，你已经偏离了。 你也看到智力是一个碎片。你正在用不同的部分看这个整体。 拉：在看的这个部分也是一个碎片。
K: Therefore, deny the fragment. (Pause) You see, we are used to reading in straight lines. Therefore, we are always thinking in straight lines. If we were used to reading, like the Chinese, vertically, then our whole thinking would be vertical. So thinking itself is a linear thinking. All that is a form of fragmentation. So, what is the question? Form your question. (Pause) Is there a perception which is not linear nor vertical, and, therefore, non-fragmentary?
克：因此，否定碎片。（暂停） 你看，我们习惯于现性阅读。因此，我们总是在直线上思考。 如果我们习惯于像中国人一样垂直阅读，那么我们的整个思维将是垂直的。 所以思考本身就是一种线性思维。所有这些都是一种分裂的形式。 那么，问题是什么呢？形成你的问题。（暂停） 是否存在一种感知，既不是线性的也不是垂直的，因此，不是零碎的？
How do you see something totally? What is the capacity of perception that sees the whole structure of human life, the whole field, at a glance? I think I see something. Look, there is the whole field of life, the physical, the emotional, the intellectual, the psychosomatic existence; and in that there are various contradictions - sorrows, anxieties, guilts, ambitions, humility, pride, sex, non-sex, God, no-God, communism - this is the whole fie1d of existence. Now, how does the mind see the whole of this field? If it does not see the whole field, but merely tackles one problem, it will create more mischief.
你如何完全看见某个东西？ 一目了然地看到人类生活的整个结构、整个领域的感知能力是什么？ 我想我看到某个东西。 看，整个生命的领域，身体的，情感的，智力的，身心的存在； 那里有各种矛盾 —— 悲伤、焦虑、内疚、野心、谦卑、骄傲、性、非性、上帝、无神论、共产主义 —— 这就是存在的全部领域。 现在，头脑如何看这整个领域？ 如果它没有看到整个领域，而只是解决一个问题，它将造成更多的灾难。
A: It comes to this, this whole process, the seventy-five thousand years of the history of man, the entire past produces this and dies. This is "what is", there is no going back. But even this is arrived at without any movement. K: First listen. There is this whole field of existence, all that we have described. There are other factors also. Now, how do I look at this whole map with all the little bridges, hamlets, towns, all that at one glance? I cannot go up in an aeroplane. The atman is the aeroplane invented by thought.
阿：它走到这一步，这整个过程，人类七万五千年的历史，这整个历程产生了这些，已成定局了。 这就是 ‘现下’，无法回头。但是甚至到了这种地步，也没有任何改变的动作。 克：先听。这就是整个存在，正如我们刚才所描述的。 这其中也有其他的因素。 现在，我们要如何一眼看到整张地图，包括其中所有的小桥、村落、城镇？ 我不能坐在飞机上看 —— 真我就是由思想发明的飞机。
You come and tell me, look, if you try to answer the whole of existence through one of the fragments, you will only create more confusion. Therefore you say, the whole of it. You say that and disappear. It is my job to find out. How do I set about it? I do not know what this total perception is. I see the beauty, logic, the sanity of it. I say, how am I to proceed? A: There is very great intensity, passion in this because I also feel this is the precipice. There is no sluggishness left. It is all there at this moment. K: You have this problem, this baby left in your lap. What are you going to do? You must answer. What is it that prevents total perception?
你走过来告訴我，看，如果你试图通过其中一个片段来回答整个存在，你只會製造更多的混亂。 所以你说，它的整个。你说了那，消失了。我的工作是找出答案。我该如何着手？ 我不知道这种完整的感知是什么。我看到了它的美丽、逻辑和理性。我说，我该怎么做？ 阿：这其中有非常大的强度和激情，因为我也觉得这是悬崖。 没有任何迟缓的余地。此时此刻，一切都在那里。 克：你拥有这个问题，这个孩子放在你的腿上。 你要做什么？你必须回答。是什么阻止了完整的感知？
A: I see intellectually that I cannot see the whole of it. K: Leave it there. What is it that prevents total perception of this vast complex, existence? Have you an answer? I have got it. Find out. (Pause) When I enter the room, one object catches my eye. The lovely bedspread, and I casually look at other things. I say that is rather beautiful, the colouring, the design and it gives great pleasure. So, what has happened? There is this whole field of existence. The eye catches the one thing. What is it that prevents the seeing of other things; that which makes other things shadowy, distant? Just listen.
阿：我在理智上看到我无法看到它的全部。 克：把它留在那里。是什么阻止了对这个巨大的、复杂的存在的完全感知？ 你有答案吗？我抓到了它。找出来。（暂停） 当我进入房间时，一个对象引起了我的注意。可爱的床单，我漫不经心地看着其他东西。 我说这是相当美丽的，颜色，设计，它给人极大的快乐。 那么，发生了什么？ 这里有整个存在的领域。眼睛抓住了一个东西。 是什么阻止它看到其他东西；使其他东西变得朦胧、遥远？ 听。
R: The observer. K: Go slow. That is beautiful but my observation of the other is still vague. This is clear. It watches this very clearly. The other is rather cloudy. Now, in this vast field of existence, I catch one thing and the rest recedes, becomes very vague. Why is it that one thing becomes important? Or why has perception focused on that? Why is the eye, why is perception attracted to this only? R: It is pleasant.
拉：观察者。 克：慢点。那是美丽的，但我对其余的观察仍然模糊不清。这一点很清楚。 它非常清楚地注视着这一点。而其余部分是相当模糊的。 现在，在这个广阔的存在领域里，我抓住了一个东西，其余的就退缩了，变得很模糊。 为什么那个东西变得重要？或者为什么感知会关注那一个点？ 为什么眼睛，为什么感知只被这个东西吸引？ 拉：它令人愉快。
K: Which means what? The element of pleasure. There is this whole field and one thing only attracts me. So what happens? I translate the whole of the field of existence into pleasure. I enter this room, I look at the bedspread and I say I like it and there it is. And there is this vast existence and in it, the one thing that attracts me is the maintenance of pleasure at any price.
克：这意味着什么？快乐的元素。 有整个领域，只有一个东西吸引我。那么发生了什么？ 我把整个存在领域转化为快乐。 我走进这个房间，看着床单，我说我喜欢它，它就在那里。 这个广阔的存在，在其中，吸引我的一个东西就是不惜一切代价维持快乐。
A: For most people life is painful. K: It is painful because we are thinking in terms of pleasure. Pleasure is the principle, is the factor which is preventing me from seeing the whole. A: I was investigating this morning. Sankara says fear of pain is the thorn in the bush.
阿：对大多数人来说，生活是痛苦的。 克：它是痛苦的，因为我们是在从快乐的角度思考。 快乐就是原则，就是阻止我看到整体的因素。 阿：我今天上午在调查。商羯罗说，“对痛苦的恐惧，如同灌木丛中的荆棘。”
K: I see this whole field of life only in terms of pursuing pleasure. I see the whole of this, with all the complexities, in terms of pleasure or wanting pleasure. Does that prevent total perception? R: It is very complex. Here is the fragment which is part of the whole. Then our attention is on this fragment. What is giving attention is a fragment. What is wanting pleasure out of this is a fragment. K: We have said all this.
克：我只从追求快乐的角度去看整个生活领域。 我看到这一切的全部，所有的复杂性，站在快乐或想要快乐的角度。 这会阻止完整的感知吗？ 拉：它很复杂。这是作为整体一部分的片段。然后我们的注意力就在这个片段上。 给予关注的是一个片段。想要从中获得快乐的是一个片段。 克：我们已经说过了。
R: So, pleasure is a fragment. K: No, no. I want pleasure throughout life. There is no other thing I want. Money, sex, position, prestige, god, virtue, ideas - this is understood - pleasure through everything.
拉：所以，快乐是一个片段。 克：不，不。 我想要一生的快乐。我不想要其它任何东西。 金钱、性、地位、声望、上帝、美德、理想 —— 这被理解 —— 通过一切去获取快乐。
And I do not see pleasure is the thorn. I do not see that. So, in perception there is one guiding factor, and if that is the guiding factor, how can I see the whole field which pleasure has brought about? I want pleasure; therefore, I create a society which will give me pleasure. My drive is pleasure. And that society has its morality, and that morality is always based on the principle of pleasure.
而我不认为快乐是荆棘。我没有看到那一点。 所以，在感知中，这里有一个向导因子， 如果有向导因子的指引，我怎么能看到快乐所带来的整个领域？ 我想要快乐；因此，我创造了一个能给我带来快乐的社会。我的动力是快乐。 社会有它的道德规范，而道德规范总是建立在快乐的原则之上。
How can the mind see the whole of the field when there is only the search for pleasure? What is the factor of pleasure? It must always be personal - it must be mine, not yours. I will sacrifice my pleasure for the greater pleasure in collective work, but it is still pleasure. Pleasure is always personal. So, look what I have done, life then becomes a movement of pleasure.
当只有对快乐的追求时，头脑怎么能看到整个领域？ 快乐的因素是什么？它必定永远是私人的 —— 它必须是我的，而不是你的。 我会牺牲我的快乐，换取集体工作更大的快乐，但这仍然是快乐。快乐永远是私人的。 所以，看看我做了什么，生命就变成了一种快乐的运动。
A: The validity of everything is pleasure. K: So, as long as the mind is pursuing pleasure as the "me", how can I see this whole thing? I must understand pleasure, not suppress it, not deny it. So, it is important to see the whole, not the particular and the particular must always exist when there is the pursuit of pleasure. And there must be understanding of pleasure, not the cutting it off by the intellect.
阿：一切事物的价值在于快乐。 克：因此，只要头脑像‘我’一样追求快乐，我怎么能看到这一切呢？ 我必须理解快乐，而不是压抑它，而不是拒绝它。 因此，重要的是看到整体，而不是个别，当追求快乐时，个别必定始终存在。 必须有对快乐的理解，而不是用智力把它切断。
A: It cannot be cut off. K: What man has done, what religions have taught is to cut off with the intellect. What tortures the saints go through, the burning, the mutilating. That is the traditional way. So, I see the central factor that when one thing becomes all-important, then I do not see the whole of life. Why is there this pursuit of pleasure? A: The pleasure principle is too strong. K: What do the professionals say about this pursuit of pleasure? A: They say that every pleasure leads to pain; man contemplates pain but it still leads to fragmentation. To concentrate on pain instead of pleasure is the same thing.
阿：它无法被切断。 克：人类所做的，宗教所教导的就是用智力来切断。 圣徒所经历的折磨，焚烧，肢解。这就是传统方式。 所以，我看到了一个核心因素，即当一个东西变得至关重要时，我就看不到整个生命。 为什么会有这种对快乐的追求？ 阿：快乐原则太强大了。 克：专业人士对这种对快乐的追求有什么看法？ 阿：他们说每种快乐都会导致痛苦；人沉思痛苦，但它仍然导致分裂。 专注于痛苦，以替代快乐，是一回事。
K: Why has man pursued pleasure at any cost? A: Biological needs are so deeply ingrained in us. K: There is nothing wrong in that - we need good, clean food. What is wrong with that? A clean floor to sleep on, what is wrong? But see what happens - I must have it tomorrow. That means today's biological need has been made into tomorrow's pleasure; which is, thought has taken over. So thinking is the factor one has to understand, not pleasure. A: We have come to see that pleasure is transferred in thought.
克：为什么人类不惜一切代价追求快乐？ 阿：因为我们的生理需求根深蒂固。 克：这没有什么错 —— 我们需要好的、干净的食物。这有什么问题？ 干净的地板，有什么错？但是，看发生什么 —— 我明天必须拥有它。 那意味着今天的生理需求已经变成了明天的快乐；也就是说，思想已经接管了。 因此，人必须理解‘思考’这一因素，而不是快乐。 阿：我们已经看到快乐被转移到思想。
K: Now you have got it. So, before you do anything with pleasure, understand thinking. Before you strengthen pleasure, before you nourish it, first find out what is thinking. A: The movement of thought as pleasure has to be understood. K: No, it is thought itself which sustains this. What shall I do with thinking? How do I stop thinking about sex or food, how? A: We started with energy. At this point it becomes fragmented. K: Thought in essence is the maker of fragments. Tradition has always talked of the suppression of thought. Act and forget it completely and do not carry it over.
克：现在你明白了。 因此，在你做任何与快乐有关的事情之前，先理解思考。 在你增强快乐之前，在你滋养它之前，首先找出什么是思考。 阿：作为‘快乐’的思想运动需要被理解。 克：不，是思想本身支撑着这一点。 我该怎么思考？我如何停止对性或食物的思考，如何？ 阿：我们从能量开始。到了这一点，它变得破碎。 克：思想在本质上是碎片的制造者。传统总是谈论对思想的压制。 行动并完全忘记它，不要把它带着。