A: I was in the self-preparation group of the Theosophical Society in 1923-24. In that group, there was a preparation for understanding - viveka, vairagya and love. It was a traditional approach. A change came about when you said let us break away from organizations, from all disciplines. In the work At the Feet of the Master, shama is translated as control of the mind and dama as control of the body. In the traditional approach, shama seems to have been neglected. Less attention seems to have been given to the meaning and implication of shama and more than due stress laid on dama. Shanti has become a one word symbol of inner peace and it is the past-passive participle of the verb shama. So if shama is not understood, shanti is also not understood. K: What do you mean by the word "sadhana"? J: Sadhana means discipline; to acquire. A: You neglect shama, the process by which arising of impulses and the subsiding of them takes place.
阿：在1923-1924年，我参加了神智学会的自我准备小组。 在那群人中，有一个理解的准备 —— 正确的认识、超脱和爱。这是一种传统方法。 当你说让我们脱离组织，脱离所有戒律时，发生了变化。 在作品《在大师的脚下》中，shama被翻译为对头脑的控制，dama被翻译为对身体的控制。 在传统方法中，shama似乎被忽视了。 对shama的含义似乎没有给予应有的重视，而对过分地强调了dama。 shanti已经成为内心平静的一个象征，它是动词shama的过去被动分词。 因此，如果不理解shama，shanti也无法理解。 克：你说的sadhana是什么意思？ 贾：sadhana的意思是纪律；以获取。 阿：你忽略了shama，这一个冲动的产生和消退的发生过程。
K: What do you mean by the word 'process' - from here to there, to proceed, a movement from here to there. A movement from here to there necessitates "sadhana". Process implies time. A: This process of observing the ways of the mind involves time. K: Time is involved in process, in discipline, in order to arrive. All that implies time, time that includes space - from here to there - and that space can be covered through time.
克：你所说的过程是什么含义 —— 指从这里到那里，一个流程，一种从这到那儿的移动吗？ 从这里到那里的运动需要sadhana。过程意味着时间。 阿：在观察头脑运作方式的过程中，涉及到时间。 克：在过程中，在训练中，为了达到，都涉及到时间。 这一切都意味着时间，时间也包含了空间 —— 从这里到那里 —— 那段空间可以通过时间来覆盖。
J: Ramana says it is pathless, free of process, free of time. A: Even when we realize that it is not good to suppress the arising and ending of desire, that realization is still a process, and is in time. K: When we say we live in time, what do we mean by that? What does living in time mean? A: The mind is geared to yesterday, today and tomorrow.
贾：拉马纳说它是无路的，没有过程的，无关于时间的。 阿：即使我们意识到压抑欲望的升起和结束是不好的， 这种认知依然是一个过程，也在时间里。 克：当我们说我们生活在时间里时，我们的意思是什么？生活在时间里意味着什么？ 阿：这颗头脑计算着昨天，今天和明天。
K: Not only the mind, but the numerical time - I come here at such and such a time. Living is within this numerical time, chronological time. Is that all my life? Is there any other time? A: There is psychological time which is created by the mind. K: What do you mean by time as created by the mind? A: The mind has a way of prolonging pleasure. My movement in chronological time is influenced by my mind. K: What is this mind? A: Memory.
克：不仅是这颗头脑，还有数字上的时间 —— 我在某一个时间来到这里。 生活就在这个数字上的、顺序的时间里。这就是我的全部生命吗？还有其他的时间吗？ 阿：还有头脑创造出来的时间。 克：你说的‘头脑创造出来的时间’是什么意思？ 阿：头脑有一种延长快乐的方法。我在物理时间里的运动受我的头脑影响。 克：这个头脑是什么？ 阿：记忆。
K: What is memory? You were in Bangalore and today you are in Madras. You remember Bangalore. Remembrance of a past experience or occurrence is memory. That leaves a mark. What is the substance on which the mark is left? There was an experience yesterday. It has left a mark, pain or pleasure, that is irrelevant. It has left a mark. On what has it left a mark? Why has it left a mark? What does the word experience mean? Experience means to go through, to propel, to throw out. When that experience is not completely washed out, it leaves a mark. On what does it leave the mark? There is a substance on which the mark has to be left. What is the substance? A: The censor. K: What do you mean by the censor? I see yesterday's experience has left a mark. On what has it left a mark? J: On mind which is consciousness.
克：什么是记忆？你曾经在班加罗尔，今天在马德拉斯。你还记得班加罗尔。 对过去经历或事件的回忆就是记忆。那留下了印记。 它在什么物质上留下了印记？ 昨天有一次经历。它留下了一个印记，不管是痛苦或快乐的，都无关紧要。它留下了印记。 它在什么东西上留下了印记？为什么会留下印记？‘体验’这个词是什么意思？ 经验意味着穿过，推进，抛弃。 当那种体验没有完全消失，它就会留下一个印记。 它在什么东西上留下了印记？ 要留下印记，必定有一种载体。这种载体是什么？ 阿：审查员。 克：‘审查员’是什么意思？我看到昨天的体验留下了印记。它在什么地方留下了印记？ 贾：在头脑上，也就是意识。
K: Which consciousness? The content of consciousness is consciousness. Without the content, there is no consciousness. Content is consciousness. The two are not separate. Find out on what memory leaves a mark. A: That part of the mind, the brain which carries the residue. K: Residue is experience. Marks are left on the brain cells themselves. See what it has done; experience unfinished, leaves a mark on the brain cells which hold memory. Memory is matter. Otherwise it cannot hold and leave a mark on the brain cells which are also matter. See what happens, Sir. Every incomplete experience, leaves a mark which becomes knowledge. The weight makes the mind dull. The brain as accumulated knowledge has received information, which is knowledge.
克：哪个意识？意识的内容就是意识。没有内容，就没有意识。 内容就是意识。两者并没有分开。找出记忆在哪里留下了印记。 阿：在大脑的某个部分，某个存放残余的部分。 克：残余物就是体验。印记被留在脑细胞上。看看它做了什么； 未完成的体验，在持有记忆的脑细胞上留下了印记。 记忆是物质。否则，它就不能在脑细胞上存留并形成印记，脑细胞也是物质。 看看在发生什么，先生。 每一个不完整的体验，都留下一个印记，变成了知识。这种重量使头脑迟钝。 这个大脑装载着接收到信息，也就是所谓的知识。
A: How does one cope with a challenge? K: What is coping with a challenge? If you respond according to past information, you do not know how to deal with the new problem. So, experience leaves a residue as memory on the brain cells, which becomes the storehouse of knowledge. Knowledge is always the past. So the brain cells act, respond, function according to the information, knowledge, residue of the past. Brain is being put together through time which is the past. And so, a mind crowded with knowledge is not a free mind. J: Because its responses are arising out of the known.
阿：一个人如何应对挑战？ 克：什么是应对挑战？如果你根据过去的信息做出回应，你就不知道如何处理新问题。 因此，体验遗下残渣，保留在脑细胞，成为知识的仓库。 知识永远是过去。 因此，脑细胞根据过去的信息、知识和残留物行动、反应、运作。 通过时间，也就是过去，大脑正在被组装。 因此，一颗塞满知识的头脑不自由。 贾：因为它的反应都源于已知。
A: At a certain level, it is essential. K: Of course, half our life is that. We see that this brain, which is put together through millennia, lives with the experience of the present and the past, the racial past, the familial, the personal past, and they are all weighted down there. We call this progress. We know technological progress, from the bullock to the jet. And the brain says that is the only way it can function with its memories; and thought says it wants to get out of the prison; so thought moves to the future - which is enlightenment, which again is a movement of thought. See what we are doing.
阿：在某种程度上，这是必不可少的。 克：当然，我们的一半生命就是这样。 我们看到，这个大脑，经过几千年的拼凑， 装载着现在和过去的经验、种族经验，家族、个人过去的经验，它们都压在大脑上。 我们把这称之为‘进步’。我们知道技术上的进步，从公牛到喷气式飞机。 这颗大脑说，只有通过记忆它才能工作； 而思想说，它想要越狱； 所以思想走向未来 —— 也就是觉悟，这又是一个思想活动。 看我们正在做什么。
A: We apply the same principle of the bullock cart and the jet - that the mind through acquired knowledge, through discipline, through control of all desires, can move to freedom. K: I do not think we are still clear. We accumulate knowledge, which is experience, memory, and through knowledge we try to find a way out. A: Yes.
阿：我们应用与牛车和喷气式飞机相同的原理 —— 头脑通过获得的知识，通过纪律，通过控制所有欲望，可以走向自由。 克：我认为我们仍然不清楚。 我们积累知识，也就是经验、记忆，通过知识，我们试图找到出路。 阿：是的。
K: The traditional approach is through knowledge. And can knowledge bring about freedom? If it can, then discipline, control, sublimation, suppression are all necessary, because that is all we know. That is tradition; tradition means to carry over. A: I see clearly it is not possible. Then why does it not stop? K: I see clearly that this is a fact. It is not an assumption, a theory. I see knowledge, which is the accumulation of centuries, is a prison and yet the mind cannot drop it.
克：传统的方法是通过知识。知识能带来自由吗？ 如果它能，那么纪律、控制、升华、压制都是必要的，因为这就是我们所知道的。 这就是传统；传统意味着继承。 阿：我清楚地看到这是不可能的。那为什么不停下呢？ 克：我清楚地看到这是事实。它不是一个假设、一个理论。 我看到知识，这是几个世纪的积累，是一座监狱，而头脑却不能放弃它。
A: This knowledge is verbal. My knowledge is based on words. K: Is it verbal? I hit you. You hit me. Pain is there. The memory of that pain is there. You hit me; I have physical pain. The remembrance of the pain is verbal but the pain is not verbal. Why has the mind translated the pain into words? Watch it, Sir.
阿：这种知识是言语上的。我的知识是基于文字的。 克：它是言语上的？你打我，痛苦就在那里。那种痛苦的记忆就在那里。 你打我，我就有身体上的痛苦。对痛苦的记忆是言语上的，但是这种痛苦不是言语。 为什么头脑把痛苦转化为文字？观察它，先生。
A: Communication. K: Watch it. You hit me. I have pain. That is a physical fact. Then I remember it. The remembrance is the word. Why has the fact become a word? J: To give continuity. K: Is it to give continuity to pain? Or continuity to the man who has given pain? A: He has to reap the consequences.
阿：交流。 克：观察它。你打我。我痛苦。那是个身体上的事实。然后我记住了它。 这种记忆就是这些文字。为什么事实变成了文字？ 贾：为了使它延续。 克：是为了让痛苦延续？或者，使带来痛苦的人延续？ 阿：他不得不收获这个后果。
J: It gives continuity to the man who receives the pain. K: Look. You hit me. There is physical pain. That is all. Why do I not end it? Why does the brain say "A has hit me"? It has already translated the pain into words. Why? Because it wants to hit back. If it did not do that, it could say, "Yes, A has hit me" - full stop. But the brain remembers not only pain which becomes the psychological mark but also the man who causes the hurt. R: Who remembers? K: The cell. A: The "I" process. J: What is getting recorded in the cell is the image of the man who hit. K: Why should I remember the man? J: Even if I forgive him, it is the same.
贾：它使感受痛苦的人具有了延续性。 克：看。你打我。有身体上的痛苦。仅此而已。我为什么不结束它？ 为什么大脑会说‘A打了我’？它已经将痛苦转化为文字。为什么？ 因为它想反击。如果它不这样做，它会说，‘是的，A打了我’ —— 句号。 但大脑不仅会记住成为心理印记的痛苦，也记住了造成这个伤害的人。 拉：谁在记？ 克：脑细胞。 阿：这个‘我’。 贾：被记录在脑细胞里的是打我的人的样子。 克：为什么我要记住这个人？ 贾：即使我原谅他，也是一样的。
K: What happens is: I translate the fact into words, "You hit me". The moment you hit, there is pain and the "I" which says, "A has hit me, how could he, what have I done." All these are waves of words. So your traditional approach to this problem is through knowledge; that you must have knowledge to arrive, to achieve freedom. And your knowledge is verbal. And I say, is that so? The experience of being hit is knowledge. Now what is the traditional approach to this whole problem of pain, suffering, of being hurt? What is the traditional response? Why has tradition maintained that knowledge is necessary as a means to enlightenment?
克：发生的情况是：我把事实翻译成文字，‘你打我’。 你打的那一刻，有痛苦，‘我’说： ‘A打了我，他怎么可能这么做，我做错了什么？’ 所有这些都是一波又一波的言词。 因此，您解决此问题的传统方法是通过知识； 你必须拥有知识才能到达，才能实现自由。 你的知识是言语上的。我说，是那样的吗？这个被打的体验是知识。 现在，要解决痛苦、苦难和伤害这整个问题，传统的方法是什么？ 传统的回应是什么？ 为什么传统坚持认为作为觉悟手段的知识是必要的？
A: This is oversimplification. Verbalizing of pain is one part, but the entire field of knowledge is racial. The word is the essence of knowledge. K: Is it? J: It is not so.
阿：这过于简单化了。痛苦的言语化只是一个部分，整个知识的领域是种族的。 文字是知识的本质。 克：是吗？ 贾：不是这样的。
K: So we have to see what knowledge is (which comes from the word "to know"). Is it knowing, the active present, or the having known? The active present of the word "to know" is knowing, not having known. A: When we talk of knowledge, it presupposes having known. K: Tradition says having knowledge is essential to freedom, enlightenment. Why has this been maintained? There must have been people who must have questioned knowledge. Why have the Gita, the gurus not questioned? Why did they not see that knowledge means the past, that the past cannot possibly bring enlightenment? Why did the traditionalists not see that discipline, sadhana have all come from knowledge? J: 1s it because people felt that memory must be maintained? K: Why did the professionals not see that knowledge is the self? They talked everlastingly about wiping away the self.
克：所以我们必须看看什么是知识（来自于“知道”这个词）。 知道吗？这个活跃的现在，或者，这个已经知道的？ ‘知道’这个词的现在进行式是去知晓，而不是已经知道。 阿：当我们谈论知识时，它的前提就是那些已经知道的东西。 克：传统上说，要获得自由和觉悟，拥有知识是必要的。为什么它维护这种主张？ 肯定有人质疑过知识。 为什么《梵歌》、上师们没有受到质疑？ 为什么他们没有看到知识意味着过去，而过去不可能带来觉悟？ 为什么传统主义者没有看到：戒律、sadhana都来自于知识？ 贾：是因为人们觉得那些记忆必须被维护吗？ 克：为什么专家们没有看到知识就是自我？他们在无休止地谈论消除自我！
A: So long as communication is verbal, you cannot wipe away the self. K: Do you mean to say that the professionals can never look at anything without the word? A: The word is compulsive, non-volitional. K: You hit me. There is pain. I see that. Why should that be built up as memory? You are not answering my question. Why did the professionals not see the simple fact that accumulated knowledge can never lead to freedom? A: Some of them did see. K: Why did they not act? The professionals are you, the professionals whom you have read; therefore why cannot you drop it? Which means you have not dropped tradition. Personally, I see a very simple fact. You hit me. There is pain. That is all. A: What about pleasure? K: The same thing.
阿：只要沟通是言语上的，你就无法消除自我。 克：你的意思是说，专家们永远不能脱离文字去看任何东西？ 阿：言语是无法抑制的，非意志力的。 克：你打我。有痛苦。我看到了。为什么要把它搭建成记忆？你没有回答我的问题。 为什么专家们没有看到‘积累的知识永远无法带来自由’这个简单的事实？ 阿：他们中的一些人确实看到了。 克：他们为什么不采取行动？专业人士就是你，你读过专业；因此，为什么你不能放弃它？ 这意味着你没有放弃传统。就个人而言，我看到一个非常简单的事实。你打我。有痛苦。仅此而已。 阿：那么，快乐呢？ 克：是同一个东西。
A: It involves an effort to drop. K: Then you enter the same circus - naming, the word, which means to strengthen the knowledge that you hit me. I do not stop there. You hit me that is a fact. My son is dead. That is a fact. To become cynical, bitter, to say "I loved him and he is gone" - all that is verbalization. A: So long as the chattering of the mind goes on - K: Let it chatter. Look. Fact is one thing and the description is another. We are caught in description, in explanation but not with the fact. Why does that take place first of all? When the house burns, I act and I must. What is action here? You have hit me. Here there is only complete inaction, which means no verbalization.
阿：这涉及到努力地去放弃。 克：然后你进入到了同一场闹剧中 —— 命名，这个言词，也就是强化‘你打我’的这个知识。 我不会停在那里。你打我，这是事实。我儿子死了，这也是事实。 变得愤世嫉俗、尖酸刻薄，说‘我爱他，他走了’ —— 所有这一切都是言词。 阿：只要头脑的喋喋不休还在继续 —— 克：让它喋喋不休吧。看。事实是一回事，而描述是另一回事。 我们失陷于描述，被解释所困；却不与事实相处。 为什么是这样？ 当房子燃烧时，我采取行动，我必须采取行动。这里的行动是什么？ 你打了我。这儿只有彻底地不行动，也就是不去言词化。
A: This happened to me when my brother died. K: Then what takes place? Why do we get caught in knowledge and make it so extraordinarily important? The capacity to reason, argue; why has it become so important? The computers are taking over that function. Why have the professionals been caught in this trap? So, can the brain cells, put together through time as knowledge, function in knowledge when necessary, and yet be completely free of knowledge?
阿：当我哥哥去世时，这件事就发生在我身上。 克：那么发生了什么？为什么我们陷于知识并使其变得如此重要？ 这种推理、辩论的能力；为什么变得如此重要？ 计算机正在接管这种功能。专家们为什么陷入这个陷阱？ 那么，这些脑细胞们，通过时间而组合出知识，必要的时候，能够在知识中发挥作用，同时又完全地摆脱知识吗？
A: I have pleasure. I say "How nice, wonderful"; I do not drop pleasure. K: I have had an affair. Pleasure is involved in it. Then thought comes along and says I would like to repeat it. Which is what? Affair, memory, reaction of memory as thought, thought building images, demanding images which is part of tradition, carrying over. I have had a pleasurable experience yesterday. Carrying over to tomorrow is tradition. A.: Also joy. K: The moment you reduce it to pleasure, it is gone.
阿：我有快乐，我说‘多么美好，多么美妙！’；我不会抛弃快乐。 克：我有一场外遇。它带给我快乐。 然后思想念头出现：‘我想重复它’，这意味着什么？ 外遇，记忆，记忆的反应，就是思想，思想构建画面，追求画面，这是一种传统，正在延续。 我昨天有一个快乐的体验。使它延续到明天，就是传统。 阿：欢乐也是。 克：当你把它简化为快乐的那一刻，它就消失了。
A: Is there only pleasure and pain or is there more in knowledge? K: We cannot answer that unless we understand pain, pleasure and knowledge. The professionals have been blind and they have made millions of people blind. The monstrosity of it! The whole of this country, the Christian world, all over it is the same. The next question arises, whether the brain cells can function at one level with complete objectivity, with sane knowledge, without bringing the pleasure principle into it, pleasure through prestige, status and all that? And can the brain cells also realize that freedom is not in knowledge? That realization is freedom. How does this happen?
阿：在知识中，只有快乐和痛苦吗？还是有更多的内容？ 克：除非我们理解痛苦、快乐和知识，否则我们无法回答这个问题。 专业人士是盲人，他们使数百万人失明。这真是畸形！ 这整个国家，整个基督教世界，到处都是这样。 下一个问题出现了， 脑细胞是否可以在一个层面上完全客观地发挥作用，运用合理的知识， 不将快乐原则带入其中，不通过声望、地位等等去获取快乐？ 脑细胞们也能意识到自由不在知识里吗？ 那种意识就是自由。这是怎么发生的？
J: One point here - when thought craves to die, it continues. K: What would be the professional's answer to this question? Why does thought cling? J: Samadhi. I stay in samadhi and come back. K: There is no meaning in that. Do the brain cells see themselves as a repository of knowledge? Does the brain cell realize it for itself? Not as a superimposed realization, but that when the principle of pleasure acts, then the mischief begins? Then there is fear, violence, aggression, everything follows. A: When the field of knowledge is distorted by pain and pleasure, then the whole mischief starts.
贾：有一种说法 —— 当思想渴望死亡时，它就会继续。 克：专业人士对这个问题的回答是什么？为什么思想死缠着？ 贾：三摩地。我留在三摩地，然后回来。 克：这没有任何意义。脑细胞是否将自己视为知识的宝库？ 脑细胞自己意识到了吗？ —— 不是附加的意识，而是意识到：当快乐的原则起作用时，灾难就开始了。 然后是恐惧、暴力、侵略，一切都随之而来。 阿：当知识的领域被痛苦和快乐扭曲，整个灾难就开始了。
K: Why did the traditionalists, the professionals, the scriptures, the spiritual leaders not see this? Was it because authority was tremendously important - the authority of the Gita, the experience, the scriptures. Why? Why did they not see this? Because, man is the result of all this. And so you have the man who says I have read the Gita, I am the authority. Authority of what? Of somebody else's words, of knowledge? A: We can know the various systems without being involved in them. The tradition does bring you a certain clarity. We know how the professionals worked and how you work. You say knowledge is entirely of the past.
克：为什么传统主义者、专业人士、经文、精神领袖们没有看到这一点？ 是因为权威非常重要吗 —— 《梵歌》、经验、经文的权威。 为什么？为什么他们没有看到这一点？ 因为人是这一切的结果。 因此你听见有人说: 我读过《梵歌》，我是权威。 是什么权威？别人的话？知识？ 阿：我们可以在不参与其中的情况下，知道各种系统。传统确实给你带来了一定的清晰度。 我们知道专业人士是如何工作的，也知道你是如何工作的。你说知识完全是过去的。
K: Obviously. If I am tethered to a post, I cannot move. A: Then why did the professionals not see it? K: They were after power. A: You do not understand. When you say they wanted power, that is not so. K: Look. What is taking place in each person? We see something very clearly for a moment. The perception is translated into experience as knowledge. There it is. I have seen it. It is finished. I do not have to carry it with me. The next minute I am watching.
克：显然。如果我被栓在一根柱子上，我就不能移动。 阿：为什么专家们看不到这一点？ 克：他们追逐权力。 阿：你不明白。你说他们想要权力，但事实并非如此。 克：看，每个人身上发生了什么？我们在某一刻看得很清楚。 这种感知被翻译成经验，变成了知识。 就是这样。我看见了。它结束了。我不必随身携带它。 下一分钟，我在观察。
J: Why is there a watcher? K: Look, why does the brain insist on a continuity in knowledge? Why does the brain continue in the multiplicity of knowledge? Why does it keep on adding, multiplying, "I did this yesterday, she was so kind; why is this going on and on? Look Sir, the brain cannot function healthily, sanely, if it is not completely secure. Security means order. Without order the brain cannot function, it becomes neurotic. Like a child it needs complete security. When the child is secure, feels at home, it is not frightened, then it grows up as a marvellous human being. So the brain needs security and it has found security in knowledge. That is the only thing it can be secure in - experience as knowledge which acts as the future guide. So it needs security and it finds it in knowledge, in belief, in family.
贾：为什么会有观察者？ 克：看，为什么大脑坚持知识的连续性？ 为什么大脑在知识的多样性中继续？ 为什么它不断添加，繁衍，‘我昨天做了这个，她太善良了’；为什么会这样？ 看，先生，如果大脑没有完整的安全，它就不能健康地、理智地运作。安全意味着秩序。 没有秩序，大脑就无法运作，它变得神经质。像孩子一样，它需要完整的安全。 当孩子有安全感，感到很自在，不害怕时，他就会成长为一个了不起的人。 所以大脑需要安全感，它在知识中找到了安全感。 这是它唯一可以确信的东西 —— 体验被作为知识，充当了未来的向导。 因此，它需要安全感，它在知识、信仰和家庭中找到了它。
A: The traditionalists provided that security through knowledge. K: The mind wants security. If the professional said I really do not I know, he would not be a professional. A: Yet security at a certain level is essential. K: One has to negate the Gita, the Bible, the guru, the whole thing. One has to negate totally all the constructions that thought has put together, to wipe away and say "I do not know, I do not know a thing." One has to say "I will not say a thing, I do not know. I will not repeat a thing which somebody else has said." Then you begin.
阿：传统主义者通过知识提供了这种安全感。 克：头脑想要安全感。如果专家说自己真的不知道，他就不会是一名专家。 阿：然而在某种层面的安全是必要的。 克：一个人必须否定《梵歌》、《圣经》、上师，否定一切。 一个人必须完全否定思想所构建的所有结构，抹去并说“我不知道，我什么都不知道”。 一个人不得不说：‘我什么都不会说，我不知道。我不会重复别人说过的话。’ 那么，你开始。
A: When you say that memory is the function of the brain cells, do the brain cells as a source of intellect have any valid part to play in their own silencing? K: We were talking yesterday of why knowledge has been made important as a way of enlightenment. Apparently every religious teacher has insisted on knowledge, not only in the East but also in the West. And as tradition is so strong in this country, it is really necessary to find out what part this whole systematized thinking plays in attaining enlightenment. What part does the environmental conditioning play in enlightenment? How does culture, the conditioning by culture come into being? You must cover the whole field. Take a traditional outlook like that of Nagarjuna or Sankara. Approach it from there.
阿：当你说记忆是脑细胞的功能时， 作为智力来源的脑细胞们，在它们自己的安静中，是否发挥着有效的作用？ 克：我们昨天谈到了为什么把作为一种觉悟方式的知识变得如此重要。 显然，每个宗教老师都维护着知识，不仅是在东方，西方也是如此。 由于传统在这个国家是如此强大， 确实有必要找出这整个系统化的思维在获得觉悟中扮演着什么角色。 环境条件在觉悟中扮演着什么角色？ 文化，文化的局限是怎样产生的？您必须覆盖整个领域。 采取像龙树菩萨或商羯罗那样的传统观点。从那里接近它。
A: The traditionalists say, all action, activity, arises from causes, and these causes are known. K: You are making an incorrect statement. You are stating from cause to effect. There is no such thing. A: It starts with this sutra: "All these manifestations of behaviour, it is the Buddha who has given you the source of all these manifestations. If you know the cause, you can eliminate the cause." This is the statement of the Buddha. By understanding the cause you get rid of it and he has told you the cause. All manifested thought, behaviour, is within the field of cause-effect.
阿：传统主义者说，一切行为、活动，都源于原因，而这些原因是已知的。 克：你的说法不正确。你是在陈述因果关系。没有这样的东西。 阿：它以这篇佛经开始：“所有这些行为的表现，是佛陀给了你所有这些表现的来源。 如果你知道原因，你就可以消除原因。” 这是佛陀的说法。 通过理解原因，你摆脱了它，他已经告诉你原因。 所有表现出的思想，行为，都在因果领域之内。
K: I question this. We also see that what was cause becomes the effect and effect becomes the cause. There is no fixed cause, there is no fixed effect. If there is a fixed cause, everything is fixed. Then there is no explanation enquiry, movement possible. The acorn will produce an oak tree. On this principle, we think karma operates. Now is there a fixed point at all or is there a constant movement which the mind and brain are incapable of following, living? And so the mind says there is cause and effect and it is held in that pattern.
克：我对此表示质疑。我们还看到，原因变成了结果，结果变成了原因。 没有固定的原因，没有固定的结果。如果有固定的原因，一切都是固定的。 那样就没有了解释、询问和移动的可能性。 橡子会长成橡树。根据这个原则，我们认为业力在运作。 现在，究竟有没有一个固定的点， 或者，有没有一种恒定的运动，而这颗头脑和大脑却无法跟随它、生活于其中？ 所以，这颗头脑说有因果链，并把它自己锁在那个链条中。
A: Is there such a thing as cause and effect? If there is a chain of cause-effect, at any point you can hold it. At the cause point where effect becomes the cause, that is the key to this. K: Who is to hold it? A: Where the effect becomes the cause, that is the point.
阿：有因果吗？如果存在因果链，那么在任何一个点上，你都可以握住它。 在结果变成原因的那一点上，就是关键。 克：谁去握住它？ 阿：在结果变成原因的那一点，那就是关键。
K: You insulted me yesterday, that is the cause. The insult may have been the result of my previous insult to you, and in reacting again there are a series of actions, modifications going on all the time. You insult me; at that moment, if I am totally aware, if the mind is totally aware, there is no cause-effect at all. You insult me. The response to that insult is from the old brain that has divided itself, that has been functioning in a pattern. At the moment of insult, for the old brain not to respond can only happen when there is complete attention. In that moment of attention there is no cause-effect.
克：你昨天侮辱了我，那就是原因。这个侮辱可能是我之前对你的侮辱的结果， 在不断的反应中，有一系列的行为，总是在修改的行为链。 你侮辱我；在那一刻，如果我完全地清醒，如果这颗头脑完全地清醒，就根本没有因果。 你侮辱我。对那个侮辱的回应来自于分裂的旧大脑，它一直以一种模式运作。 在侮辱的那一刻，要使得旧大脑不作出回应，只有在完全的关注下才能发生。 在那一刻的关注中，没有因果关系。
A: If there is no attention, it becomes the cause of another chain. Therefore, where an effect germinates itself into a new cause, it is there that action comes which is different. K: I do not think so. I insult you. That may be the result of my unconscious neglect of you. It has hurt you and you want to hurt me. The cause is my not greeting you, and the cause is I was interested in the birds, in the movement of their wings. I am an artist. I want to look at a bird in all its movements. Where is cause and where is effect? I see a movement of the leaves in the breeze, and I do not greet you. You are an old friend and you get insulted.
阿：如果不注意，它就会成为另一环链条的原因。 因此，当一个结果萌发成一个新的原因时，正是在那里，行为变得不同了。 克：我不这么认为。我侮辱你。那可能出于我一时对你的疏忽。 它伤害了你，你想伤害我。 原因是我没有问候你，是因为我对鸟儿感兴趣，对它们翅膀的扇动感兴趣。 我是一名艺术家。我想看看一只鸟的所有动作。 哪一个是原因，哪一个是结果？ 我看到树叶在微风中摆动，没有向你打招呼。 而作为老朋友的你，觉得自己被侮辱了。
J: The cause is in oneself. K: The observation of the movement is not in oneself. J: Insult arises within me, not within you. K: I have unintentionally given a cause to insult you. J: What makes me feel insulted is within me. Cause and effect are within me. K: You are saying, though I did not greet you, the very fact of that insult was born in you, not given to you. I am not at all sure. A: I have affection for you and I see you watching the bird, I will understand, but if I do not have affection, then I will blame you. So causation is always within. K: I see very clearly what you say.
贾：原因在自己身上。 克：对运动的观察不在自己身上。 贾：羞辱产生于我的内心，而不是你的内心。 克：我无意中制造出一个侮辱你的原因。 贾：让我觉得被侮辱的原因在我的内心里。因果在我的内心中。 克：你是说，虽然我没有问候你，但那种侮辱产生于你自己，而不是别人给你的。我完全不确定。 阿：我对你有感情，看到你在观察鸟，我就会理解；但是如果我没有感情，那么我就会怪你。 因此，原因总是在自己的内心。 克：我明白你的意思了。
A: It is not always a one to one relationship. Instead of saying this cause arises with this person, the general law is as follows: "Thus the whole thing arises with a matrix of not-knowing - avidya. You come to the focus of "I". In avidya is samskara, all that man has done. From that is consciousness, out of consciousness comes naming. These lead to the body and the six senses: then you see." Cause is used in a broad cosmic sense. But you start from the point of "I see" and start only from there.
阿：它不总是一对一的关系。 与其说这个原因产生于这个人，倒不如说普遍的规律如下: 这一切都产生于一个无知的母体 —— 无明。 你进入了‘我’的聚焦点。在这无明中，就是轮回，含藏着那个人做过的所有事情。 从那里生出意识，从意识里生出命名。 从这些生出身体和六种感觉；然后，你看。 原因在广义的宇宙意义上适用。 但是你从‘我看’开始，并且只从那里开始。
J: Sankara says you cannot say how ignorance began and he denied causation. Cause-effect can be ended. Before you go any further you have to exhaust the intellect. K: Is this part of Zen? A: No, Sir, it is not. Awakening of intelligence is not sui generis. J: You cannot bypass the intellect. We do not know how the process began, but we can end it. K: From the seed, multiple cell, till man appeared. From unitary cell it moves on.
贾：商羯罗说你不能说无知是如何开始的。他否定因果。因果是可以终结的。 在你进一步前进之前，你必须枯竭智力。 克：这是禅的一部分吗？ 阿：不，先生，它不是。智慧的觉醒不是自成一体的。 贾：你不能绕过智力。我们不知道这个过程如何开始，但是我们可以结束它。 克：从种子，多细胞，直到人类出现。从单细胞开始，它在前进。
A: The biologist does not go beyond manifestation. To assume it is a wrong thing. K: There is ignorance and there is always perception, sensation. A: Samskara is that which is put together. K: Put together in time which means evolution. A: Then you come to the next point, vijnana, which is consciousness.
阿：生物学家没有超越现象。去做这种假定是错误的。 克：存在着无知，总是存在着感知，感觉。 阿：那组装出来的，就是轮回。 克：花时间组装，就是进化。 阿：然后你就来到下一点，vijnana，也就是意识。
K: Is consciousness different from samskara? That which has been put together is consciousness. A: No Sir, it is the matrix. Within that comes your consciousness, my consciousness. K: Let us find out. A: The matrix is common to all of us. K: Samskara, you say, means put together. A: Literally it means tendencies.
克：意识和轮回不同吗？那组装出来的，就是意识。 阿：不，先生，它是母体。在母体里有你的意识，我的意识。 克：让我们找出来。 阿：母体对我们所有人都是共同的。 克：你说轮回意味着组装。 阿：从字面上讲，它意味着‘趋向’。
K: I am asking what is consciousness. Consciousness is made of content. Without the content, is there consciousness at all? The content of consciousness is consciousness. Content has been going on for centuries. A: Is content all or is it a segment? K: I see all my conditioning makes for consciousness.
克：我问什么是意识。 意识是由内容组成的。没有内容，还有意识吗？ 意识的内容就是意识。内容已经持续了几个世纪。 阿：内容是全部还是片段？ 克：我看到我所有的条件反射都是意识。
A: Man has existed for many, many years. Before his consciousness came into being, the matrix was already there. K: Thought began with the unitary cell. Man has lived for more than thirty-five thousand years; during that time he has collected all kinds of experiences. All that is consciousness. A: Out of this has come consciousness.
阿：人类已经存在了很多很多年。在他的意识出现之前，母体就已经存在了。 克：思想在单细胞时就产生了。 人类已经活了三万五千多年，在那段时间里，他积累了各种各样的经验。 那一切都是意识。 阿：意识从里面产生。
K: I do not separate the two. There is no separation of the two. If there is no content, there is no consciousness. In consciousness there are many fragments, and it is not one solid content. There are different levels, activities, attitudes, characteristics; all that is total consciousness. One part of that total consciousness, a fragment of that assumes importance. Then it says "I am consciousness" or "I am not consciousness", "I am this", "I am not this".
克：我不把两者分开。两者没有分别。如果没有内容，就没有意识。 意识中有很多碎片；它不是一个固定的内容。 有不同的层面，活动、态度、特征；那一切是全部的意识。 在这整体意识中，某个碎片认为它很重要。 然后它说‘我就是意识’ 或者说‘我不是意识’，‘我是这个’，‘我不是这个’。
A: You have made a distinction between consciousness which has different levels and that point at which it says "I am different". At that point it becomes different. R: "I" and the "not I", the division is there. A: Then there is a difference between the matrix and the self. K: Look, the content of consciousness is consciousness. Without the content there is no consciousness. The content is made up of various divisions - my family, your family, and all that; it is made up of fragmentation. One of the fragments assumes importance over all other fragments.
阿：你已经对意识进行了区分， 也就是存在不同层面的意识，以及说‘我是不同的’的那个点。 在那一点上，它变得不同。 拉：‘我’和‘非我’，这种划分就在那里。 阿：然后就有了母体和自我的区别。 克：看，意识的内容是意识。 没有内容就没有意识。 内容是由各个片区组成的 —— 我的家庭、你的家庭，以及所有的那一切；意识的内容是由碎片组成的。 而其中的一个碎片自认为比其他的碎片重要。
R: The classical way of saying this is, the reflection imagines it is the prototype. A: The moment there is the focus, the individualization starts. K: Be careful. This is very important. When you use the word "individual" it means indivisible, in himself, no fragment. So one fragment assumes the authority, the power to criticize, the censor - all within the area which we call consciousness. A: In the case of consciousness as the not-identified, what happens? K: I do not know a thing about identification.
拉：经典的说法是，这反映出的影像就是母体。 阿：一旦出现聚焦点，个体化就开始了。 克：小心。这非常重要。当你使用‘个体’这个词的时候，它意味着不可分割的，在他身上是没有碎片的。 因此一个碎片认为自己是权威，有批评的权力，是审查者 —— 这一切都在我们称之为意识的领域内。 阿：当意识未被认同的情况下，在发生什么？ 克：我对认同一无所知。
A: The moment identification starts the significance is that I identify myself with the part. That is the point of separation. K: Do not assert anything. The content of consciousness is consciousness. When there is no content there is no consciousness. In that content are tremendous factors of conflict, of fragmentation. One fragment assumes authority, one fragment does not identify itself with other fragments. It feels insecure - there are such vast conflicts there. It does not identify with any fragment, it does that only when it says "I like this, I do not like this". R: What is that "I"? A: It is my own past.
阿：在认同开始的那一刻，其意义在于我把我自己与这个部分相等同。 那一刻就是分裂的转折点。 克：不要断言任何事情。意识的内容就是意识。 当没有内容时，就没有意识。其中蕴含着巨大的冲突因素和分裂因素。 一个碎片具有权威性，一个碎片不等同于其它的碎片。 它感到不安全 —— 那里有如此巨大的冲突。 它不认同任何碎片，只有当它说‘我喜欢这个，我不喜欢这个’的时候，它才会这样做。 拉：那个‘我’是什么? 阿：它是我拥有的过去。
J: "I" is the fragment. A: Buddha said it is the totality of all impressions, the complex of impressions, which has created an identity for itself but which has no true identity. R: There is consciousness and it has immense diversity. K: There are many fragments. How is it that one fragment becomes important, and the importance then goes on? (Pause) I see something. There is the whole field of fragmentation, which is consciousness. When does the "I" come into being? A: Is it not implied in the field of consciousness itself? The "I" which comes out of it is latent in it. K: There are all these fragments. Why does the mind not leave it alone? I see my consciousness is made up of various fragments. Why does it not leave it alone? What takes place?
贾：‘我’是这个碎片。 阿：佛陀说，它是所有印象的总和，印象的复合体， 它为自己创造出一个身份，但那个身份却没有真实性。 拉：意识是存在的，它有着巨大的多样性。 克：存在着许多的碎片，为什么一个碎片变得重要，并将这种重要性持续了下去？(停顿) 我看到某些东西。这一整片分裂的领域，那就是意识。‘我’是什么时候出现的？ 阿：它不就隐含在意识领域内吗？从意识中冒出来的‘我’潜伏在意识里面。 克：那些碎片都在里面。为什么这颗头脑不让它在那呢？ 我看到我的意识由不同的碎片组成。为什么它要去管它呢？是什么情况？
A: Identification. K: There is fragmentation, contradiction, there is conflict. That is all that takes place. Conflict takes place. Within that conflict is the desire to end conflict. A: Where there is conflict, if I am not identified, it does not affect me. At that point it does not become conflict. K: There is only conflict, opposition, contradiction in consciousness. There is this field of consciousness which we have described. Where there is opposition, contradiction, that is the field of conflict. There may be fragments. Each fragment being fragmentary will produce conflict, pain, pleasure, sorrow, agony, despair. That is the field. Then what takes place?
阿：认同。 克：有分裂，矛盾，冲突。那就是所发生的一切。在发生冲突。 在这场冲突中，存在着结束冲突的的欲望。 阿：当出现了冲突，如果我没有产生认同，那么它就不会影响我。在那一点上，它没有变成冲突。 克：在意识中，只有冲突，对立和矛盾。也就是我们所描述的意识领域。 哪里存在对立和矛盾，哪里就有冲突。 可能存在着这些碎片，每一个碎片处于一种残破的状态，会产生冲突、痛苦、快乐、悲伤、挣扎、绝望。 那就是这个领域。然后，在发生什么？
A: I want to end it. K: Here this whole structure of consciousness is a battlefield. A: Why do you say so? Consciousness is full of irreconcilables. The moment I use the word "conflict" I have identified myself. K: This field of consciousness being divided is the source of conflict - India and Pakistan. I am a Hindu and you are a Muslim. The fact is, division inevitably brings conflict.
阿：我想结束它。 克：在这里，整个意识结构是一个战场。 阿：你为什么要这样说？意识中充满了不可调和之物。 当我使用‘冲突’这个词的那一刻，我就已经认同了我自己。 克：这片被分割的意识领域就是冲突的根源 —— 印度和巴基斯坦。 我是印度教徒，你是穆斯林。这个事实是：有分裂就有冲突。
A: That is so till you come to the point of naming; naming changes the quality. K: Look at the field of conflict. There is division. Where there is division there must inevitably be conflict - my family, your family, my God, your God. A: Does every divided fragment become aware?
阿：在你走到命名的地步之前就是那样；命名改变了这种品质。 克：看着这片冲突的领域 —— 分割。 哪里有分割，就必然有冲突 —— 我的家庭、你的家庭、我的上帝、你的上帝。 阿：每个分裂的碎片都会意识到吗？
K: I see the fact that where there is division there must be conflict. In this consciousness where there are so many fragments, there must be conflict. In the phenomenal world he is a Hindu and I am a Muslim, and that is breeding war and hatred. This is a simple, straight phenomenon. We all talk of unity and keep on with our divisions.
克：我看到了这个事实，哪里有分裂，哪里就一定会有冲突。 在这片有这么多碎片的意识中，必定有冲突。 在这纷繁的世界中，他是印度教徒，我是穆斯林，正在滋生战争和仇恨。 这是一个简单的、直接的现象。我们都在谈论团结，却维持着我们的分裂。
See, Sir, what takes place. In this field there is conflict, contradiction, fragmentation, division; when the conflict becomes acute then comes the "me" and "you". Otherwise I leave it alone. I float along in this conflict, but the moment conflict becomes acute - there is war, the Hindu-Muslim war, then I am a Hindu and you are a Muslim; identification takes place with something which I think is greater - with God, nation, idea.
看，先生，正在发生什么情况。在这个领域中存在着冲突、矛盾、碎片、分裂； 当冲突变得尖锐时，就出现了‘我’和‘你’。否则我就让它去吧。 我在这场冲突中随波逐流，在冲突变得尖锐的那一刻 —— 就是战争，印度教—穆斯林战争， 那时，我是印度教徒，你是穆斯林；认同发生了： 我与我认为更伟大的东西 —— 上帝、国家、理想，产生了认同。
So long as the conflict is mild, I leave it alone. My point is, as long as there is no conflict, there is no "I". There is no "I" if there is no conflict. We are saying, therefore, conflict is the measure of the "I". There was no conflict yesterday, there is conflict today, and I hope there will not be conflict tomorrow. This movement is the "I". This is the essence of the "I".
只要冲突是温和的，我就不管它。 我的观点是，只要没有冲突，就没有‘我’。 没有‘我’，如果没有冲突。因此，我们说，冲突是衡量‘我’的标准。 “昨天没有冲突，今天有冲突；因而，我希望明天不会有冲突。” 这个运动就是‘我’。这就是‘我’的本质。
A: There are many other facets. K: Is the tree different from the branches? It may have ten hundred branches. The structure of consciousness is based on this conflict. We are not discussing how to end conflict. R: The traditional view is, division is the "I" and the separation from the conflict is also "I". A: As long as conflict is not observed, is hidden, "I" is not. R: Does this all begin here or does the arising of "I" go deeper? K: Is there a self, the "I", which is to be studied, or is the "I" a movement?
阿：还有许多其他的方面。 克：一棵树可能有一万条分支，但是树与树枝不同吗？ 意识的结构就是以这种冲突为基础的。我们不是在讨论如何结束冲突。 拉：传统的观点认为，分裂就是‘我’，与冲突的分离也是‘我’。 阿：只要冲突没有被观察到，处于潜伏状态，就没有‘我’。 拉：这一切都是从这里开始的吗，还是‘我’的产生更深？ 克：这个自我，这个‘我’，这个要研究的，是否存在？或者，这个‘我’是一种运动？
A: You say the "I" begins as a movement in consciousness. K: No. There is an assumption that the "I" is static. Is it so? Is the "I" something to be learnt about? Or is the "I" a movement? Do I learn about something or do I learn in movement? The former is non-existent. It is fallacious, it is an invention. So the central fact is division. It is the source of all conflict. That conflict may take different shapes, levels, but it is the same. Conflict may be pleasant, I may like to be bullied, beaten by my wife, but it is a part of the structure of conflict.
阿：你说‘我’始于意识的运动。 克：不是。有一种假设是‘我’是静态的。它是吗？ 这个‘我’是某个需要学习的东西吗？还是说‘我’是一个运动？ 我是在学习某个东西呢，还是我在运动中学习？ 前者是不存在的，它是骗人的，是一个虚构出来的发明物。 所以核心事实是分裂。它是所有冲突的根源。 那个冲突可能具有不同的形式和层次，但它是是相同的。 冲突可能是快乐的，我可能喜欢被妻子欺负、打骂，但它是冲突结构的一部分。
R: The nature of consciousness is conflict. K: It is not its nature. Consciousness is conflict. If I have no conflict, what happens to me? A: You say there is no "I" if there is no conflict. Does that mean the state of non-conflict is non-consciousness? R: The state of non-conflict is beyond conflict. The dimension in which we live is conflict. A: Sir, I said intensification of conflict includes naming. K: Naming is all included in this. The average man swims along till a conflict becomes acute.
拉：意识的性质是冲突。 克：这不是它的性质。意识就是冲突。如果我没有冲突，我出现了什么情况？ 阿：你说，如果没有冲突就没有‘我’。那是否意味着没有冲突的状态是无意识的？ 拉：没有冲突的状态超越了冲突。我们生活的维度就是冲突。 阿：先生，我说过冲突的激化包括命名。 克：命名都被包括在其中。普通人一直随波逐流，直到冲突变得尖锐。
A: When conflict becomes acute, then naming starts. K: What is naming? Why do we need naming at all? Why do I say "my wife", why? Investigate it. A: At one level it is for communication, at another level it is subtle. K: Why do I say "She is my wife?" R: We want to prolong that "which is". A: Because I want a continuity in that. K: Sir, I say "my wife; why? A: Security, I want to hold on to her.
阿：当冲突变得尖锐时，命名就开始了。 克：什么是命名？为什么我们要命名？为什么我说“我的妻子”，为什么？调查它。 阿：在一个层面上，是为了沟通，在另一个层面上，就很是微妙。 克：我什么我说‘她是我的妻子’？ 拉：我们想延长这种身份。 阿：因为我想要一种延续。 克：先生，我说她是我的妻子；为什么？ 阿：为了安全，我想抓住她。
K: Look, I say the word is not the thing. It never is. The word is only a means of communication. The fact is not the word. The fact that she is "my wife" is legally true, but what have I done when I say it? Why have I named it? To give continuity, to strengthen the image I have built? I possess her or she possesses me, for sex, for comfort and so on. All these strengthen the image about her. The image is there to establish her as mine. In the meanwhile, she is changing; is looking at another man. I do not acknowledge her freedom, and I do not acknowledge freedom at all, for myself. So what have I done when I say she is my wife?
克：看吧，我说这个名字不是这个东西。它永远不是。 这个文字只是一种交流手段。这真实的东西不是这个词。 她是‘我的妻子’这个事实在法律上是真实的，但是当我说出来时，我做了什么？为什么我要给它命名？ 为了延续，为了加强我建立起来的印象？我占有她或者她占有我，为了性，为了舒服等等。 这一切都强化了关于她的印象。这个印象是为了将她确定为我的。 与此同时，她在变化；她在看别的男人。 我不承认她的自由，为了我自己，我根本不承认自由。 那么，当我说她是我的妻子的时候，我做了什么？
A: You are saying we do not like movement, we like everything static. K: I want to possess her, and that is why I need her. The brain cells establish a pattern of habit and refuse to leave habit. A: The entire consciousness is words, knowledge. I want to understand this, what you are saying. K: Knowledge is put together. Knowledge horizontally or vertically is put together. Knowledge is a process. Process implies time. Time implies thought. So through thought, through knowledge, through time, you are trying to find something which is out of time, which is not knowledge, which is not thought. You cannot. A: The whole process which we have described must also be non-verbal.
阿：你说我们不喜欢动态的，我们喜欢静止的东西。 克：我想占有她，这就是我为什么需要她。脑细胞建立起一个习惯的模式并且拒绝离开这个习惯。 阿：整个意识是言词、知识。我想理解这，你所说的话。 克：知识是组装起来的。通过水平排列，或垂直叠加，被放在一起。知识是一种过程。 过程就意味着时间。时间意味着思想。 因此，通过思想，通过知识，通过时间，你试图找到某种超越时间的、不属于知识的、不属于思想的东西。 你不可能做到。 阿：我们描述的整个过程必定也是非语言的。
K: The use of words is to communicate, to share together something common between two people. The common factor between human beings is despair, agony, sorrow. Can this be dispelled through time or can they be dispelled instantly? Is this process to be ended with words or without words? The word is not the thing. You may describe the most marvellous food, but the description is not the food. A: Use of words demands a complete understanding of the field of knowledge.
克：使用语言是为了交流，一起分享两个人的共同点。 人类之间的共同因素是绝望、痛苦、悲伤。 这可以通过时间来消除吗？还是可以立即消除？ 这个过程的结束，是使用言词还是不用言词？词不是这个东西。 你可以描述最美味的食物，但是描述本身并不是食物。 阿：要使用言词，必须对知识领域有一个完全的理解。
K: Words are necessary to communicate. Communication means sharing together common problems. The word is not the thing, but we have to use the word in order to understand the thing. Why do we make words so important? Words are meant to communicate. We have to be precise. A: In order that communication takes place there have to be words. K: When does communication take place - the sharing together of a common problem? A: It can take place non-verbally.
克：在交流中，需要语言。 交流意味着一起分享共同的问题。 这个词不是这个东西，但我们必须使用这个词来理解这个东西。 为什么我们把文字变得如此重要？文字是为了交流。我们必须精确。 阿：为了进行交流，必须有文字。 克：什么时候交流 —— 共同分享一个共同的问题？ 阿：可以用非语言的形式进行交流。
K: To me communication means sharing together, thinking together, creating together, understanding. When are we together? Surely, not on the verbal level alone. We are together to share the problem, when we are tremendously vital, passionate, at the same level with the same intensity. When does this happen? It happens when you love something. When you love, it is finished. I kiss you, and I hold your hand, it is finished. When we lack that thing, we spin around with words. I am sure all the professionals miss that.
克：对我来说，交流意味着一起分享，一起思考，一起创造，一起理解。 我们什么时候在一起？当然，不仅仅是在言词层面上。 我们在一起分享问题，当我们非常有活力，充满激情，处于相同的水平和相同的强度时。 什么时候会发生这种情况？当你爱某人时，它发生。 当你爱的时候，它就完成了。我吻你，我握住你的手，就完成了。 当我们缺少那时，我们就用文字兜圈子。 我肯定所有的专家们都错过了那。
So our problem is how to meet, to come together at the same time, at the same level, with the same intensity. That is the real question. We do that when there is sex which we call love. Otherwise you battle for yourself and I battle for myself. This is the problem. Can I, who am in sorrow, say, "Let us come together, let us talk it over", and not talk of what Nagarjuna, Sankara and others say.
因此，我们的问题是，如何在同一时间，同一水平，以同样的强度遇见彼此，走到一起。 这才是真正的问题。当我们有被称之为爱的性行为时，我们会这样做。 否则你为自己而战，我为自己而战。这就是问题所在。 我这个忧愁的人，能不能说“让我们走到一起，让我们来讨论它”， 而不是谈论龙树菩萨、商羯罗和其他人所说的话。
A: All our lives we have been thinking in terms of cause and operating on cause. Our whole life is living with cause, finding out the cause and trying to control the cause. Even when we know the cause we cannot operate on it. This is also a part of our experience. Buddha discovered the cause of suffering and was liberated from suffering. You say cause is effect and effect is cause, and you also point out that in this cause and effect, time is inescapable. Even after listening to you, the impact of cause and the operating on cause has become an integral part of one's thinking. Can we go into it?
阿：我们一生都在思考原因，并根据原因进行操作。 我们的一生就是活在因中，找出原因并试图控制原因。 即使我们知道原因，我们也无法对其进行手术。这也是我们经验的一部分。 佛陀发现了痛苦的原因，并从痛苦中解脱出来。 你说因就是果，果就是因，你也指出，在这个因果关系中，时间是不可避免的。 即使听了你的话，原因的影响和手术对原因的影响已经成为一个人思想的一个组成部分。我们可以进去吗？
K: What is the question? A: To explore the validity of the cause-effect sequence in respect of understanding. K: What does it mean - to explore? What is the state of the mind which explores rather than the fact of exploration? You say all action has a cause and that cause affects action and without understanding cause, do what you will with action, it will always be limited. So explore the cause, understand the cause and thereby bring about a mutation in action.
克：问题是什么？ 阿：在理解方面探讨因果序列的有效性。 克：探索是什么意思？探索的心境是什么，而不是探索的事实？ 你说所有的行为都有一个原因，这个原因会影响行动，而不理解原因， 用行动做你想做的事，它总是有限的。 因此，探索原因，了解原因，从而带来行动中的突变。
I do not know the cause of my action. There may be obvious causes and other causes which are undiscoverable by the conscious mind. I can see the superficial causes for action; but these superficial causes have very deep roots in the recesses of one's own being. Now, can the conscious mind not only examine the superficial but also uncover the deeper? Can the conscious mind ever examine the deeper layers? And what is the state of the mind which explores? These three questions are important. Otherwise discovering the cause has no meaning.
我不知道我行动的原因。 可能有明显的原因和其他原因，这些原因是意识思维无法发现的。 我可以看到行动的表面原因;但这些表面的原因在一个人自己存在的深处有着非常深刻的根源。 现在，有意识的头脑不仅可以检查表面的，还可以发现更深层次的吗？ 有意识的头脑能检查更深层次吗？探索的心境是什么？ 这三个问题很重要。否则，发现原因就没有意义了。
R: You explore when you do not know. K: First we asked what is the quality of the mind which is exploring? What is it exploring - the superficial or the causes which are so deeply hidden? So before I begin to explore, I must find out the state of the mind which explores. Now, what is the state of the mind, the quality of the mind that can explore? You say the Buddha said this, somebody said that, and so on, but what is the quality of the mind that has the capacity, that can explore? What is the `I' which explores - is it crooked, myopic, far-sighted? I must see the quality of the mind which looks at the carpet before I can see anything. Obviously, it must be a free mind. Have you a mind that is free from any conclusion? Otherwise you cannot explore.
拉：当你不知道的时候，你会探索。 克：首先，我们问的是正在探索的头脑的品质是什么？ 它在探索什么 —— 表面的还是隐藏得如此之深的原因？ 因此，在我开始探索之前，我必须找出在探索的头脑所处的状态。 现在，这颗头脑的状态是什么，可以探索的头脑的品质是什么？ 你说佛陀这样说，其他人那样说，等等，但是，有能力、能够进行探索的头脑的品质是什么？ 这位在探索的‘我’是什么 —— 是被扭曲的、近视的、有远见的吗？ 在我看任何东西之前，我必须先看看这颗盯着屏幕的头脑的品质。 显然，它必须是一个自由的头脑。 你有没有一个没有任何结论的头脑？否则你无法探索。
A: We have unconfessed postulates and we see and drop them. K: What you are doing is analysis. You are analysing step by step. When you analyse, what takes place? There is the analyser and the thing analysed. The analyser must be extremely clear-sighted to analyse, and if this analysis is in any way twisted, it is not worth anything. The analytical, intellectual process implies time. By the time you have enquired through analysis, through time, other factors enter which distort the cause. So the way of analysis is entirely wrong. So, there has to be a dropping of analysis. J: I am confused. K: Yes, it is a fact we are confused. We do not know what to do and we begin to analyse.
阿：我们有尚未确认的假设，我们看到并放弃它们。 克：你做的是分析。您正在逐步地分析。当您分析时，在发生什么？ 有分析者和被分析的东西。 分析者必须非常清醒地进行分析，如果这种分析有任何方式的扭曲，它就一文不值。 分析的、智力的过程意味着时间。 当你通过分析，随着时间的推移，其他因素进入，就扭曲了原因。 所以分析的方式是完全错误的。因此，必须放弃分析。 贾：我困惑了。 克：是的，我们困惑，这是事实。我们不知道该怎么做，于是我们开始分析。
A: The process of analysis is to us something concrete. You said while you operate on cause, some other factors enter. Does it mean the analysis of the problem becomes inconsequential? K: I think the whole process is wrong. I am concerned with action which is put together by a series of analytical examinations, analytical implications in which time is involved. By the time I find what I sought, I am exhausted, dead. It is difficult with the conscious mind to analyse, to examine the hidden layers. So I feel this whole intellectual process is wrong. I say this without any disrespect.
阿：分析的过程对我们来说是具体的东西。 你说当你根据原因进行操作时，其他一些因素进入。 这是否意味着对问题的分析变得无关紧要？ 克：我认为整个过程是错误的。 我关心的是一系列分析性检查所组成的行动，而分析意味着时间的渗入。 当我找到我所寻求的东西时，我已经筋疲力尽，死了。 有意识的头脑很难去分析，去检查这些隐匿的层面。 所以我觉得这整个智力过程是错误的。我这样说没有任何不尊重的意思。
A: We have only that tool - the intellect, as a means of examination. Is the intellect capable of examination except to collect, recollect, foresee, analyse? Intellect is capable of that. It is only a fragment. Therefore, the examination by a fragment can only bring about a fragmentary understanding. What do we do? R: I cannot do anything. K: You say the intellect is the only instrument one has which has the capacity to examine. Has it? Has the intellect the capacity to examine or does it examine only partially? I see the truth of that, not as a conclusion, not as an opinion, but the fact that the intellect being partial can examine only partially and therefore I no longer use the intellect.
阿：智力是我们拥有的唯一检查工具。 智力除了收集、回忆、预见、分析之外，是否能够进行检查？ 智力有能力做到那一点。可它只是一个碎片。 因此，碎片的审视只能带来零碎的理解。我们该怎么办？ 拉：我什么都做不了。 克：你说智力是人拥有拥有的唯一检查工具，是吗？ 智力有能力去检查吗？或者，仅部分地检查？ 我认为这是事实，而不是结论，不是一个观点， 这个事实就是：智力作为某个局部，只能进行片面地检查，因此我不再使用智力。
A: Such a mind can lapse into belief. You are saying the mind senses this. K: The drug-taking, the whole of that, is part of the same phenomenon. A: When the mind superficially turns away from analysis, it falls into other traps; so this has to be done rigorously with the intellect. K: Analysis is not the way. A: With what instrument do we explore? Our reason must corroborate what you say.
阿：这样的头脑也许会陷入信仰中。你是说头脑感觉到了这一点。 克：吸毒的行为，那一切，是这种现象的一部分。 阿：当头脑表面上远离分析时，它就会陷入其他的陷阱中； 因此这必须严格地用智力来做。 克：分析不是解决办法。 阿：我们用什么工具探索？我们的理性必须证实你所说的话。
J: You arrive there by some path which is not analytical. We see the logic of it. K: I tell you analysis is not the way of understanding. I give you the logical sequences using reason. That is only an explanation. Why don't you see the truth that analysis is not the way? A: When you say "I examine and this is so", it is pure logic.
贾：你通过非分析的道路到达了那里。我们看到了它的逻辑。 克：我告诉你，分析不是理解的方式。我用理性给你指出了合乎逻辑的续发事件。 那只是一个解释。你为什么看不到分析不是理解的途径？ 阿：当你说‘我检查，这就是如此’，它是纯逻辑的。
K: What you have done is to come to a conclusion through logic, but we are not talking of logic. Logic has led you to analysis. Somebody says your logic is false, because your logic is based on the fact of intellect, which is partial; therefore partial examination is no examination at all. A: It is partial analysis. K: It is like saying that I love my wife partially.
克：你所做的是通过逻辑得出一个结论，但我们不是在谈论逻辑。 逻辑引导你进行分析。 有人说你的逻辑是错误的，因为你的逻辑是基于智力上的事实，而智力是片面的； 因此，片面的检查根本就不是检查。 阿：它是部分的分析。 克：就好比说‘我部分地爱我的妻子。’
A: In the effort to understand environment, nature, outer phenomenon man has developed certain instruments and here too we use the same instruments; but they are inadequate. K: They are not inadequate. They are not adequate. Analysis, process, involves time. As it involves time, it must be partial. The partial is brought about by the intellect, because the intellect is part of the whole structure.
阿：为了努力去理解环境、自然、外部现象，人类已经发展出一定的工具。 在这里，我们也使用相同的工具；但它们不适用。 克：它们不是不适用。它们是不充分的。 分析、过程，涉及到时间。由于涉及到时间，它就必定是局部的。 局部是由智力导致的，因为智力是这整体结构的一部分。
A: What is the instrument which explores when you put the question? When we put the question, we go back to the intellect. K: You began by saying that the intellect is the only instrument of examination. I say the intellect is partial and, therefore, your examination will be lopsided. Therefore your examination is invalid.
阿：当你提出这个问题的时候，所用的探索工具是什么？ 当你提出这个问题，我们回到了智力上。 克：你一开始就说智力是唯一的检查工具。 我说智力是片面的，因此，你的检查将是不平衡的。 因此你的检查无效。
A: It is very clear that the intellect is partial and cannot see, but it starts working through habit. K: "A" began by telling of cause-effect, effect-cause - those are processes of analysis. Analysis implies time and in such analysis there is the analyser and the analysed. The analyser must be free from past accretions, otherwise he cannot analyse. As he cannot be free of the past, analysis has no validity. Seeing that, I say it is finished. Therefore, I am looking for another way.
阿：可以肯定的是，智力是片面的，它无法看见，但它是通过习惯而运作的。 克：阿克尤特从谈论因果关系开始 —— 那些都是分析过程。 分析意味着时间，在这样的分析中，存在着分析者和被分析者， 分析者必须脱离过去的吸积，否则它无法分析。 由于他无法摆脱过去，分析是无效的。看到这里，我说它结束了。 因此，我正在寻找另一种方式。
A: This is the shortest summary - with logic, logic is wiped out. K: I see analysis is not the way. That frees the mind from a false process altogether. So the mind is much more vital. It is like a man walking with a heavy burden and the heavy burden is removed. A: But with us the burden comes back.
阿：这是最简单的总结 —— 通过逻辑，逻辑被清除了。 克：我看到分析不是办法。就把头脑从这个错误的过程中解放了出来。所以头脑更有活力。 这就像一个人背着沉重的包袱走路，沉重的包袱就被卸下了。 阿：但是对我们来说，包袱又回来了。
K: The moment you perceive something to be true, how can it return? The moment you see that the snake is dangerous, you do not go back to the snake. A: Nagarjuna says "if you see what I am saying as a concept, you are finished." J: Is there some other way?
克：在你认识到某个东西是真实的那一刻，它怎么能回来？ 当你看到蛇很危险的那一刻，你就不会回到蛇的身上。 阿：龙树菩萨说：“如果你把我所说的看作一个概念，你就完蛋了。” 贾：还有其他办法吗？
A: You say something. The moment you say something, the instrument stops operating, because that instrument is not going to say anything more. K: But that instrument is very sharp, very clear; it abstains from any partial action taking place. A: It is constantly watching, it can operate. K: No, Sir, the whole analytical process is finished.
阿：你说了些什么。在你说的那一刻，这个工具就停止了运转，因为那个工具不会再说什么了。 克：但是那工具非常敏锐，非常清晰；它不采取任何片面的行为。 阿：它一直在观察，它能运作。 克：不，先生，整个分析过程已经终结了。
A: When we have gone through this.... K: No, we are not exploring. I am showing you how to explore. What you have done is you have used intellect, the partial instrument and thought that was the complete answer. See how the mind has deceived itself, how it says "I have analysed all this", but it has not seen how partial it is, and therefore it is valueless. The intellect itself has become valueless as an instrument apart from other factors. I am asking myself if intellect is not the instrument of examination, then what takes place?
阿：我们深入这…… 克：不，我们不是在探索。我正在向您展示如何探索。 你的做法是使用智力，这个片面的工具和思想，那就是完整的答案。 看看头脑是怎样欺骗它自己的，它说“我已经分析了这一切”， 但它没有看到它是多么的片面，因此它毫无价值。 离开了其他因素的智力被当作一种工具，它就变得毫无价值了。 我问我自己，如果智力不是检查的工具，那么，在发生什么？
A: One comes to believe in the need for support or for the help of some prop, when one comes to this point. K: The factor is, intellect is an incomplete instrument and cannot understand a total factor, a total movement. Then what is examination? If the intellect cannot explore, what is the instrument that can explore? What do Sankara, Nagarjuna, Buddha say about this? Find out. Do any of them deny the intellect? A: They say explore with the help of the terra firma.
阿：当一个人走到这一步，这个人开始相信需要支持，或者需要某些依靠者的帮助。 克：这个事实是，智力是一种不完整的工具，不能理解这整个因素、整个的运动。 那么什么是检查？如果智力不能探索，那么能探索的工具是什么？ 商羯罗，龙树，佛陀对此有何看法？找出来。他们中有人否认智力吗？ 阿：他们说，在大地的帮助下，进行探索。
K: That is with partial vitality, energy, explore the whole energy. How can it? Why have they said this? R: The Vedantic concept is that with the intellect you cannot see, but with the Self or the atman, which is of the very nature of perception, you can see. A: As our minds have been heavily conditioned, when we get a support, we hold on. K: What we want to find out is, analysis and the way of the intellect is not exploration at all. It is like saying "I go partly into the tunnel." What is the quality of the mind if the intellect is not the instrument"?
克：那是通过部分的生命力和能量去探索整个能量。怎么可能呢？他们为什么这么说？ 拉：吠檀多的概念是: 通过智力你无法看， 但是通过真我或阿特曼，也就是感知的本质，你能看。 阿：由于我们的头脑受到了严重制约，当我们找到了支撑物，就抓住不放。 克：我们发现，分析和智力的方式根本不是探索。 这就像在说“我部分地进入隧道”。 如果智力不是工具，头脑的品质是什么？
A: When the intellect is totally put aside, then the mind has nothing of the past in it. K: Who is it that has to put it aside? Then you are back again into the dualistic principle. A: We see the intellect is partial.
阿：当智力完全地被放在一边，那么头脑就没有过去的东西了。 克：是谁必须把它放在一边？然后你又回到了二元性的原则中。 阿：我们看到智力是片面的。
K: Therefore, we are asking: What is the quality of the mind that can explore - mind being not only the intellect but the brain cells, the biological, the physical, the nerves, the whole thing, the total, the complete. What is the quality of the mind that can explore? I see that any partial movement is incomplete and, therefore, does not get anywhere. I see that partial seeing is no seeing at all, and therefore I am finished with it. It is completely over. The mind then asks what the nature of perception is that is total. And it is only such a total perception that can examine. And it may not need to examine at all, because that which has to be examined is of the partial field - division, analysis, exploration. I am asking what total perception is, what is the quality of total perception?
克：所以，我们问: 那种能够探索的头脑的品质是什么？ —— 头脑不仅是智力，而且包含脑细胞、这个有机体、神经系统、这一切，这个总和、这个整体。 这颗能够探索的头脑，它的品质是什么？ 我看到任何局部的运动都是不完整的，因此无处可去。 我看到：‘片面地看’根本不是看，因此我终止了它。它完全结束了。 然后，这颗头脑问，那种完整的感知的本质是什么。 只有这种完整的感知才能进行检查。 它可能根本不需要检查， 因为必须检查的是局部领域 —— 划分、分析、探索。 我在问什么是完整的感知，这种整体性感知的品质是什么？
A: Movement of any kind cannot be total perception. K: What is total perception? R: It seems as if there is no instrument because the instrument belongs to something.
阿：任何形式的运动都不可能是完整的感知。 克：什么是完整的感知？ 拉：似乎不存在工具，因为工具属于某个东西。
K: What is the difficulty? When you look out of the window and see these bushes, how do you look at them? You are usually thinking about something and at the same time looking. I say you have to look, that is all. What is the difficulty? We never look. If I look at a picture, I look. I do not say this painter is so and so, this painter is better than somebody else. I have no measure. I do not verbalize. We said just now partial looking is no looking at all, therefore, the mind has finished with the partial, so when I do look, I look.
克：困难是什么？当你向窗外看，看到这些灌木丛时，你怎么看它们？ 你通常在看的同时，也在思考某些事情。我说你必须看，仅此而已。 有什么困难？我们从不看。如果我看一张照片，我看。 我不说这个画家是某某，这个画家比别人好。 我没有衡量标准。我不作言语化。 我们刚才说，片面的看根本不是看， 因此，头脑已经终止了片面的看，所以当我看的时候，我看。
R: The element of habit is so strong. K: Therefore, the mind which is caught in habit cannot explore. So we have to examine the mind which is caught in habit and not exploration. We have to understand habit. Forget exploration, causation, analysis. Forget all that. Can the mind understand habit? Let us tackle that. A: Whatever you say with the intellect is partial. K: See the truth of it, not the 1ogic of it. You can supply the logic later. What you thought was the door is not the door. You will not move towards that once you see it, but you do not see it.
拉：习惯的作用太强大了。 克：因此，陷入习惯的头脑是无法探索的。 因此，我们必须检查陷入習慣的头脑，而不是去探索。我们必须理解习惯。 忘记探索、因果关系和分析。忘记那一切。头脑能理解习惯吗？让我们解决这个问题。 拉：你通过智力所说出的任何话，都是片面的。 克：看它的真相，而不是它的逻辑。 你可以稍后提供逻辑。你思想中的门，不是这扇门。 一旦你看到它，你不会走向它，但你没有看到它。
R: What is the difference between perception and recognition? For us perception is only there in the form of recognition. K: You recognize through association. Recognition is part of the habit of association. So I am saying you cannot examine, explore with a mind which is used to habit. Therefore, find out the mechanism of habit. Do not find out how to examine, but find out what is habit. A: Habits are grooves.
拉：感知和认识有什么区别？ 对我们来说，感知只是以认识的形式而存在。 克：因为你通过联想来认识。认识是联想习惯的一部分。 所以我说你无法用一个困在习惯中的头脑去检查、探索。 因此，找出习惯的机制。不要去找如何检查，而是找出什么是习惯。 阿：习惯是凹槽。
K: How have habits been formed? That is the door. I am going through that door, now why does the mind fall into habit? What is habit? How is it that the mind falls into habit? I am going to analyse it. We use analysis which is partial, which is not total understanding. Knowing that it is valueless, we still continue - why does the mind fall into habit? Is it because it is the easiest way to function? To get up at six, to go to bed at seven. There is no friction; I do not have to think about it. A: I look at a tree. I do not have to think about it. And yet the mind says it is a tree.
克：习惯是如何形成的？ 那是一扇门，我要穿过那扇门。现在，为什么头脑陷于习惯之中？ 什么是习惯？头脑是怎么掉进去的？我要去分析它。 我们使用的分析是片面的，而不是完整的理解。 知道它毫无价值，我们仍然继续 —— 为什么头脑陷于习惯之中？ 是因为它是最容易的运作方式吗？六点起床，七点睡觉。 没有摩擦；我不必考虑它。 拉：我看到一棵树。我不必去考虑它。然而头脑说‘它是一棵树’。
K: It is a habit. Why does the mind fall into habit? It is the easiest way to live; it is easy to live mechanically. Sexually and in every other way it is easy to live that way. I can live life without effort, change, because in that I find complete security. In habit there is no examination, searching, asking. R: I live within the field of habit.
克：它是一个习惯。为什么头脑陷入习惯之中？ 它是最容易的生活方式；机械地生活是容易的。 在性方面和其他方面，以这种方式生活很容易。 我可以不费吹灰之力地生活，不用改变，因为在那里我找到了完全的安全感。 在习惯中，没有检查，搜索，询问。 拉：我生活在习惯的领域里。
K: So habit can only function within a very small field. Like a professor who is marvellous but functions in a very small field; like a monk who operates within a very small cell. The mind wanting safety, security, no change, lives in patterns. That is a partial examination. But it does not free the mind from patterns. So what shall I do? A: Having seen this, knowing that partial understanding is no understanding, how does the mind free itself totally from habit?
克：因此习惯只能够在很小的范围内发挥作用。 就像一位了不起的专家，却只能在很小的领域内工作； 就好像一位和尚，在一个非常小的房间里运转。 想要有安全、有保障、没有变化的头脑，生活在模式中。那就是片面的检查。 但它并不能将头脑从模式中解放出来。那我该怎么办？ 阿：看到这，认识到‘局部的理解就是不理解’，头脑如何完全地摆脱习惯？
K: I am going to show you. A: We have examined habit, but the mind does not get out of it. K: You will never go back to the analysis of habit. You are no longer going to examine the causes of habit. So the mind is free of the burden of analysis which is part of habit. So you have got rid of it. R: Yes, yes - K: No. It must go. Not merely verbally. Habit is not only symptomatic, but psychosomatic. When we have examined habit as we have done, it is over.
克：我会展示给你。 阿：我们已经检查了习惯，但是头脑并没有摆脱它。 克：你永远不会回到分析的习惯中。你也不再检查习惯的原因。 因此，头脑没有了分析这个‘包袱’。分析是习惯的一部分。因此，你已经摆脱了它。 拉：是的，是的 —— 克：不是。它必须离开。不仅仅是口头上。习惯不仅是表象，而且渗透在身心之内。 当我们像这样来检查习惯，它就结束了。
A: We are not free of habit. K: Because you are still insisting the door is there. We started out saying "I know". There is a certain sense of arrogance. You do not say "I want to find out." Then what is total perception when the mind is free from habit? Habit implies conclusions, formulas, ideas, principles. All these are habits. Habit is the essence of the observer.
阿：我们依旧没有摆脱习惯。 克：因为你依然坚持门就在那里。我们一开始就说‘我知道’。这其中有一定的傲慢感。 你没有说‘我想去发现’。 那么，当头脑摆脱习惯的时候，什么是完整的感知？ 习惯意味着结论、公式、想法、原则。所有这些都是习惯。习惯是观察者的本质。
R: It is all that we know of the "I". K: To find this out, I go to a book. That is where the damage is done, the damage which the other people have established, the Sankaras, the Buddhas and all the others. I prefer this one, I prefer the other one, and so on. I will not let go because that is my vanity. I argue. You know the cartoon which says "My guru has more enlightenment than yours". That is about all. Therefore, Sir, humility is necessary. I know absolutely nothing and I am not going to repeat a word which I have myself not found. I really do not want to know. I know this is not the way. I do not want to know anything more. That is all. The door which I thought was real is not the door. What happens later? I do not move in that direction, I will find out.
拉：那是我们对‘我’的全部了解。 克：为了找到答案，我去看一本书。 这就是造成损害的地方，其他人所建立的损害，商羯罗、佛陀和所有其他人。 我更喜欢这个，我更喜欢另一个，依此类推。我不会放手，因为那是我的虚荣心。我争辩。 你知道有部动画片说“我的上师比你的觉悟更高”。就是如此。 因此，先生，谦卑是必要的。 我什么都不知道，我不会重复一个不是我自己找到的词。 我真的不想知道。我知道这不是办法。 我不想知道更多。仅此而已。 我认为是真实的门，是非那扇门。 之后会发生什么？我不朝那个方向前进，我会发现。