Question: What is the significance of pain and suffering?
问题：痛和苦难的意义是什么？
Krishnamurti: When you suffer, when you have pain, what is the significance of it? Physical pain has one significance but probably we mean psychological pain and sufferings which has quite a different significance at different levels. What is the significance of suffering? Why do you want to find the significance of suffering? Not that it has no significance - we are going to find out. But why do you want to find it? Why do you want to find out why you suffer?
克里希那穆提：当你受苦受难时，当你痛时，它的意义是什么？ 身体上的痛有一种意义，但可能 我们指的是心理上的痛和苦难，它们具有完全不同的意义，处于不同的层面上。 苦难的意义何在？ 你为什么要找到苦难的意义？ 并不是说它没有意义 —— 我们将找出答案。 但是你为什么要找它呢？ 你为什么想找出你为什么受苦受难？
When you put that question to yourself, "Why do I suffer?", and are looking for the cause of sufferings are you not escaping from suffering? When I seek the significance of sufferings am I not avoidings, evading it, running away from it?
当你问自己这个问题时，“我为什么有苦难？ 寻找苦难的原因，你不是正在逃避苦难吗？ 当我寻求苦难的意义时，我不是在避免、逃跑、逃避它吗？
The fact is, I am suffering; but the moment I bring the mind to operate upon it and say, "Now, why?", I have already diluted the intensity of suffering. In other words, we want suffering to be diluted, alleviated, put away, explained away. Surely that doesn't give an understanding of suffering. If I am free from that desire to run away from its then I begin to understand what is the content of suffering.
这个事实是，我受苦受难； 但是当我开动脑筋，在它上面动手脚，并说：“为什么？” 我已经淡化了苦难的强度。 换句话说，我们希望苦难被淡化、减轻、收抛、解释。 当然，那并不能理解苦难。 如果我摆脱了逃避它的欲望， 那么我就会开始理解苦难的内容是什么。
What is suffering? A disturbances isn't it?, at different levels - at the physical and at the different levels of the subconscious. It is an acute form of disturbance which I don't like. My son is dead. I have built round him all my hopes or round my daughter, my husband, what you will. I have enshrined him with all the things I wanted him to be and I have kept him as my companion - you know, all that sort of thing. Suddenly he is gone. So there is a disturbance, isn't there? That disturbance I call suffering.
什么是苦难？是不是一种麻烦？ 在不同的层面上 —— 在身体和潜意识的不同层面上。 它是一种我不喜欢的、一种令人不安的尖锐形式。 我儿子死了。 我把所有的希望都寄托在他身上，或者我的女儿，我的丈夫，或者某某人的身上。 我把他当成心肝宝贝，希望他成龙成凤，永远留在我身边 —— 你知道，所有那些事情。 突然间，他走了。因此，产生了不安，不是吗？ 这种不安我称之为苦难。
If I don't like that suffering, then I say "Why am I suffering?", "I loved him so much", "He was this", "I had that". I try to escape in words, in labels, in beliefs, as most of us do. They act as a narcotic. If I do not do that, what happens?
如果我不喜欢这种苦难， 那么我说“我为什么受苦？”，“我非常爱他”，“他是这么”，“我有那个”。 我试图用语言、标签、信仰来逃避，就像我们大多数人一样。它们像麻醉剂一样。 如果我不这样做，会发生什么？
I am simply aware of suffering. I don't condemn it, I don't justify it - I am suffering. Then I can follow its movements can't I? Then I can follow the whole content of what it means - `I follow' in the sense of trying to understand something.
我只是意识到苦难。 我不谴责它，我不为它辩护 —— 我在受苦。 那么，我就可以跟踪它的动向，不是吗？ 然后我可以跟踪它的全部内容 —— “我跟踪”的意思是指：试图理解某个东西。
What does it mean? What is it that is suffering? Not why there is suffering, not what is the cause of suffering, but what is actually happening? I do not know if you see the difference. When I am simply aware of suffering, not as apart from me, not as an observer watching suffering - it is part of me, that is the whole of me is suffering. Then I am able to follow its movement, see where it leads. Surely if I do that it opens up, does it not?
它是什么意思？苦难是什么？ 不是为什么会受苦？不是苦难的原因是什么，而是实际在发生什么。 我不知道你是否看到这种区别。 当我只是意识到苦难时，它不是与我分离的，我不是作为一个观察者在观察苦难 —— 它是我的一部分，是我的全部在受苦。 然后我能够跟随它的移动，看它走向何方。 当然，如果我这样做，它就会打开，不是吗？
Then I see that I have laid emphasis on the `me' - not on the person whom I love. He only acted to cover me from my misery, from my loneliness, from my misfortune. As I am not something, I hoped he would be that. That has gone; I am left, I am lost, I am lonely. Without him, I am nothing. So I cry. It is not that he is gone but that I am left. I am alone. To come to that point is very difficult, isn't it?
然后，我发现我被引到了核心处：这位“我” —— 而不是所我爱的人。 他只是为了遮盖我的悲惨，我的孤独，我的不幸。 因为我不是什么人物，我希望他会是那样的人。 但那已经过去了；我被抛弃了，我感到迷茫，孤独。 没有了他，我什么都不是。所以我哭泣。 不是他走了，而是我被离弃了。只剩下我一个人。 要走到这一步是非常困难的，不是吗？
It is difficult really to recognize it and not merely say, "I am alone and how am I to get rid of that loneliness?", which is another form of escape, but to be conscious of it, to remain with it, to see its movement. I am only taking this as an example. Gradually, if I allow it to unfold, to open up, I see that I am suffering because I am lost; I am being called to give my attention to something which I am not willing to look at; something is being forced upon me which I am reluctant to see and to understand.
真的很难认识到它， 而不仅仅是说，“我孤独，我该如何摆脱那种孤独？” 这是另一种形式的逃避，而是要意识到它，与它在一起，看它的动向。 我只是举个例子。 渐渐地，如果我允许它展开，敞开，我看到我因为迷茫而受苦； 我被召唤去注意我不愿意去看的东西； 有些东西被强加在我身上，我不愿意去看，去理解。
There are innumerable people to help me to escape - thousands of so-called religious people, with their beliefs and dogmas, hopes and fantasies - "it is karma, it is God's will" - you know, all giving me a way out. But if I can stay with it and not put it away from me, not try to circumscribe or deny it, then what happens? What is the state of my mind when it is thus following the movement of suffering?
有无数人帮我逃避 —— 成千上万的所谓的宗教人士，他们的信仰和教条，希望和幻想 —— “它是业力，是上帝的旨意” —— 你知道，都给我指出一条逃跑线路。 但是，如果我与它在一起，不把它从我身边抛开，不试图去限制或拒绝它，那么，发生了什么？ 当我的头脑这么跟随着苦难的运动时，它的状态是什么？
Is suffering merely a word, or an actuality? If it is an actuality and not just a word, then the word has no meaning now, so there is merely the feeling of intense pain. With regard to what?
苦难只是一个词，还是一个现实？ 如果它是一个现实而不仅仅是一个词，那么这个词现在就没有意义了， 所以只有剧烈的痛苦感。 这种感觉与什么相关？
With regard to an image, to an experience, to something which you have or have not. If you have it, you call it pleasure; if you haven't it is pain. Therefore pain, sorrow, is in relationship to something. Is that something merely a verbalization, or an actuality?
与一个形像，一个体验，一个你拥有或没有的东西。 如果你拥有它，你称之为快乐；如果你没有，它就是痛苦。 因此，痛苦，悲伤，与某个东西相关。 那仅仅是口头上的，还是一个现实？
That is when sorrow exists, it exists only in relationship to something. it cannot exist by itself - even as fear cannot exist by itself but only in relationship to something: to an individual, to an incident, to a feeling. Now, you are fully aware of the suffering. Is that suffering apart from you and therefore you are merely the observer who perceives the suffering, or is that suffering you?
那就是当悲伤存在的时候，它之所以存在，只是由于与某个东西相关联。 它不能单独存在 —— 即使恐惧也不能单独存在，而只可能存在于与某个东西的关联中： 与某个人，某件事情，某种感觉相关。 现在，你完全意识到苦难。 那么，这种苦难是与你分开的，因此你仅仅是感知苦难的观察者吗， 或者，苦难就是你？
When there is no observer who is suffering, is the suffering different from you? You are the suffering, are you not? You are not apart from the pain - you are the pain. What happens? There is no labelling, there is no giving it a name and thereby brushing it aside - you are merely that pain, that feeling, that sense of agony.
当没有受苦的观察者时，苦难与你不同吗？ 你在受苦，你没有吗？你与痛苦没有被分裂 —— 你就是这个痛苦。 在发生什么？ 没有标签，没有给它一个名字，从而把它放在一边 —— 你只是那种痛苦，那种感觉，那种痛楚的感觉。
When you are that, what happens? When you do not name it, when there is no fear with regard to it, is the centre related to it? If the centre is related to it, then it is afraid of it. Then it must act and do something about it. But if the centre is that, then what do you do?
当你是那时，在发生什么？ 当你不说出它的名字，当对它没有恐惧时，还有与之相关的中心吗？ 如果中心与它有关，那么它就害怕它。 然后它必须采取行动并对此做点什么。 但如果中心就是那，那么你该怎么办？
There is nothing to be done, is there? If you are that and you are not accepting it, not labelling it, not pushing it aside - if you are that thing, what happens? Do you say you suffer then? Surely, a fundamental transformation has taken place. Then there is no longer "I suffer", because there is no centre to suffer and the centre suffers because we have never examined what the centre is.
没有什么可做的，有吗？ 如果你就是那，你不接受它，不给它贴标签，不把它推到一边 —— 如果你是那个东西，发生什么？说你在受苦？ 当然，一种根本性的转变发生了。 然后就不再有「我受苦」，因为没有中心去受苦， 而这个中心之所以受苦，是因为我们从未审视过这个中心是什么。
We just live from word to word, from reaction to reaction. We never say, "Let me see what that thing is that suffers", You cannot see by enforcement, by discipline. You must look with interest, with spontaneous comprehension. Then you will see that the thing we call suffering, pain, the thing that we avoid, and the discipline, have all gone.
我们只是肤浅的活着，从一个字到另一个字，从一个反应到另一个反应。 我们从不说，“让我看看那个在受苦的东西是什么”， 你无法通过强迫、通过纪律去看。 你必须带着兴趣，带着自发的理解去看。 然后你会看到，我们称之为苦难、痛苦、那个我们回避的东西，以及这种纪律，都消失了。
As long as I have no relationship to the thing as outside me, the problem is not; the moment I establish a relationship with it outside me, the problem is. As long as I treat suffering as something outside - I suffer because I lost my brother, because I have no money, because of this or that - I establish a relationship to it and that relationship is fictitious.
只要我和外在的东西没有关系，问题就没有； 当我把它放在外面，使它与我产生关联的那一刻，问题就来了。 只要我把苦难当作外在的东西 —— 我受苦，因为我失去了我的兄弟，因为我没有钱，因为这个或那个 —— 我与它建立了一种关系，而这种关系是虚构的。
But if I am that thing, if I see the fact, then the whole thing is transformed, it all has a different meaning. Then there is full attention, integrated attention and that which is completely regarded is understood and dissolved, and so there is no fear and therefore the word `sorrow' is non-existent.
但是如果我就是那个东西，如果我看到这个事实， 那么整个事情就别转变，它就具有了不同的意义。 然后有完整的注意，综合的注意 那被完全注意的东西被理解和消融， 因此，没有了恐惧，因此「悲伤」这个词不存在了。