27 INTELLIGENCE AND THE INSTRUMENT 智慧和仪器

I wanted to ask you Krishnaji, if there is one question which needs to be asked by the individual, which would open the door to reality. Can all questions be reduced to the one question?

我想问你，克里希那吉， 如果个人需要问一个问题，这将打开通往现实的大门。 所有问题都可以简化为一个问题吗？

Is there such a thing as a door? We cannot ask a question about that, for which there can be no metaphor.

有这样的东西吗？我们不能就此提出问题，对此没有任何比喻。

I think she asks, in the sense of a door, an opening, a breakthrough.

我想她问的是，一扇门、一个开口、一个突破口。

From your own experience what would you say is breaking-through? There is no point of reference.

根据你自己的体验，你认为什么是突破？没有参考点。

What is the question?

这个问题是什么？

There are many things which we have discussed during the last few days. Can all these questions converge into one question?

过去几天，我们讨论了很多东西。所有这些问题可以汇聚成一个问题吗？

I think so.

我想是的。

I would not put it that way. I come to you because in you there is an imponderable quality, a tiny seed of something which makes you entirely different. I do not look for differences in manifestation, but there is in you a tiny little touch of something, that "elseness" of yours - now is there a key to that? Is there a question which opens that up?

我不会这么说。 我來你这儿，是因為在你身上有一種不可估量的品質，一顆微小的种子，使你完全不同。 我不是在寻找表现上的差异， 但是，在你身上有一点东西，你的“其他” —— 现在，那里有一把钥匙吗？ 有没有一个问题可以打开它？

If I may ask, what is it that prevents one from seeing? The difficulty is with us. Last evening when we heard Krishnaji's talk we felt that there was nothing which we would not be prepared to do, if it was in us to do it. Can all that you say be held in one question? To you it is a very simple thing. You have an amazing capacity of converting diversity into a single thing. This convergence has not taken place in us. Could there be some action which would make all questions melt into one question?

如果我可以问，是什么阻止了一个人看？这个困难困扰着我们。 昨晚，当我们听到克里希那吉的谈话时， 我们感到没有什么是我们没有准备去做的，如果它在我们里面运作的话。 你说，能不能放在一个问题中？对你来说，这是一件非常简单的事情。 你有将多样性转化为单一事物的惊人能力。这种趋同力并没有在我们身上发生。 是否有某个行为可以使所有问题融化为一个问题？

I would further ask, if it were not possible to simplify all questions into one question, is there an instrument and what is that instrument which will make this possible? There is one interesting fact that I have observed in what Krishnaji has been saying in the last few days, and that is, he does not say thought is totally unnecessary. He says thought has a place and thought has no place. There is a region where thought is necessary and there is a region where thought has no function. The mechanism which makes it possible for thought to operate only where it should and not where it should not, without any evaluation, without the operation of will, without a doer, without a director, without a trick; that instrument, that mechanism is the essential thing. How does it happen that thought arises only where it legitimately should function and does not impinge into areas where it should not function, because there thought has investment in illusion?

我会进一步问，如果不可能将所有问题简化为一个问题， 有没有一种仪器，该仪器会使这成为可能？ 在过去几天里，我观察到克里希那吉所说的话，有一个有趣的事实， 也就是说，他并没有说思想是完全没有必要的。 他说思想有一席之地，却没有地位。 有一个区域需要思想，有一个区域思想没有功能。 这种机制使思想只能在它应该在的地方运作，而在不应该的地方则不运作， 没有任何评价，没有意志的运作，没有做的人，没有行动者，没有任何把戏； 那个仪器，那种机制是至关重要的。 思想只在它合法之地，发挥它的作用 思想只在适合它的地方、在它应该发挥功能的时候冒出， 并且不会侵犯它不应该发挥作用的领域，因为在那里，思想是在投入幻觉，这是怎么发生的？

Now what is the question?

现在，这个问题是什么？

What is the instrument? How does this happen? We have examined our minds with a microscope. Now we ask under whose command do the brain cells function? What happens to them if there is no one to direct, to command?

这个仪器是什么？这是怎么发生的？我们用显微镜检查了我们的头脑。 现在我们问，脑细胞在谁的指挥下运作？如果没有人指挥、命令，在发生什么？

I thought "K" explained yesterday that it is intelligence.

我想“K”昨天的解释是智慧。

It is the same thing. Intelligence means instrument.

是同一个东西。智慧意味着仪器。

Let us keep to the word "intelligence".

让我们继续使用“智慧”这个词。

How does it happen? Intelligence functions in different dimensions. The artist, the philosopher use intelligence, but that is not intelligence.

它是怎么发生的？智慧在不同维度上运作。 藝術家、哲學家使用智慧，但那不是智慧。

Intelligence is that quality of mind which can use knowledge, all the vast field of knowledge, but not use knowledge in another field.

智慧是头脑的那种品质， 它能在所有广阔的知识领域内使用知识，在别领域却不使用知识。

The difference that exists between me and you, is it in the degree of intelligence or is there another factor operating in you?

我和你之间的区别，是智慧的高低，还是你身上有其他因素在起作用？

The question then would be emptiness?

那么问题来了，虚无是？

Let us see. Can the mind empty the whole content of itself as the past, so that it has no motive? Can it empty itself and can that emptiness use knowledge, pick it up, use it and drop it, but always remain empty? Emptiness in the sense of the mind being nothing; emptiness which has its own movement, which is not measurable in terms of time. A movement which is in emptiness, which is not the movement of time, that movement can operate in the field of knowledge and there is no other operation. That movement can only operate in the field of knowledge and nowhere else.

让我们看看。头脑能不能把它自己的全部内容，也就是过去，清空掉，这样它就没有了动机？ 它能清空它自己吗？虚无能不能使用知识，捡起它，使用它，放下它，却总是保持空灵？ 头脑的虚无是一种什么都没有的感觉；虚无有它自己的运动，无法用时间来衡量。 一种空灵的运动，它不是时间的运动， 这种运动可以在知识的领域内运作，不在其余的地方运作。 这种运动只在知识领域运作，而不能在其他地方运作。

Are they two movements?

它们是两种运动吗？

That is why I said that movement can operate only in knowledge; it has no two movements. Please follow. I am just investigating. You are asking a question, which is, that from what you have observed in your talks here, "K" has divided knowledge and freedom from knowledge. Knowledge operating in the field of science in which there must be a certain will, a certain direction, an operative function, a design; and knowledge not operating where there is no place for thought and therefore of will.

这就是为什么我说运动只能在知识中运作；没有两种运动。请跟上。 我只是在调查。你问一个问题，那就是， 在这些谈话中，你观察到，“K”已经区分了知识和知识的解放。 在科学领域运作的知识，其中必须有一定的意志，一定的方向，运作的功能，设计； 以及在没有思想，因而也没有意志的领域内，思想不运作。

You mean not even thought which is more than will?

你的意思是，思想更甚于意志？

Of course. Let us get the question clear. I am a little bit doubtful of the question.

当然。让我们把问题弄清楚。我对这个问题有点怀疑。

It seems sometimes we operate deliberately and sometimes non-deliberately. I can see I do something of which I know nothing, and yet I operate. So there are these two operations: mental and non-mental. The movement of the two are not separate.

似乎，有时我们故意运作，有时是非故意的。 我可以看到，我做了一些我一无所知的事情，但我在运作。 所以，这里有两种运作：精神和非精神的。两者的运动不是分开的。

Watch your own mind, "F". You see thought operating always within the field of knowledge. The knowledge brings pain and that knowledge helps man to live more comfortably environmentally. Right? - and that thought also brings misery, confusion. That is a fact.

注意你自己的头脑，莫里斯。你看，思想总是在知识的领域内运作。 知识带来痛苦，知识帮助人类在环境中生活得更舒适。 对吗？—— 这种思想也带来了痛苦和困惑。这是事实。

I object to the "always".

我反对“总是”。

Wait. Then you and I ask, is thought necessary? Why does it create misery? Is it possible for thought not to create misery? That is all. Keep it as simple as this.

等等。当你和我问，思想是有必要的吗？ 为什么它造成痛苦？思想有可能不制造痛苦吗？仅此而已。就这样，让它保持简单。

My answer to that is the roots of misery are not known to me. The promptings which create misery, I do not know.

我的回答是，我不知道痛苦的根源。我不知道这种造成痛苦的潜在因子。

We began with the superficial layers. Now we will go into the secret chambers of the mind.

我们从表层开始。现在，我们将进入头脑的密室。

Surely we are not positing a state of consciousness where thought will operate at the technological level and at the day-to-day level of action where necessary, and if by some kind of trick, electric shock, all other consciousness as thought were to be wiped away, it would be enough? We are not postulating that surely.

当然，我们不是在假设一种意识状态。 思想将在技术层面上运作，必要时在日常行动层面上运作， 如果通过某种技巧，电击，所有其他思想的意识都被抹去，就足够了吗？ 我们并不是在假设这一点。

Of course not.

当然不是。

But look Sir, the moment you speak of a place where thought can operate legitimately and a place where thought has no legitimate place you are postulating the other - a state which is non-thought. If consciousness is only content, then what is the other?

但是先生，你看， 当你谈到在某个地方，思想可以合法地运作，在另一个地方思想没有合法的地位 你是在假设另一个 —— 一种没有思想的状态。 如果意识只是内容，那么另一个是什么？

I can go into a state of constant euphoria. Is that enough? This can happen through lobotomy.

我可以进入一种持续的陶醉状态。那就够了吗？这可以通过脑叶切除术发生。

Then you become a vegetable.

那你就变成了植物人。

Then if that is not so, what else is there in consciousness?

那么，如果不是这样，意识中还有什么呢？

When you said that thought is consciousness, it is there that I put a question mark? Is thought the entirety of consciousness? Can we say that consciousness is nothing beyond thought? I would question this.

你说，思想就是意识，我打了一个问号，思想是意识的全部吗？ 我们能说‘除了思想之外，意识什么都不是’吗？我会质疑这一点。

So we have to go into the question of consciousness.

所以我们必须深入意识这个问题。

We are going back. You used the word "intelligence" in a different way. That word is the key, if we know what it is.

我们又绕回去了。你以一种不同的方式使用了“智慧”这个词。如果我们知道它是什么，那个词就是关键。

But this also a very valid question: if content is thought, if all consciousness is content and it is legitimate for thought to function in the field of technology, and all impinging of thought in the psychological direction is pain, then cutting thought away, will it solve the problem?

但这也是一个非常有效的问题：如果内容就是思想，如果所有意识都是内容， 而且思想在技术领域运作是合理的， 而思想在心理方向上的所有冲击都是痛苦，那么切断思想，能解决问题吗？

No.

不能。

Then what is the "other"?

那么“另一种”是什么？

Intelligence is different from consciousness. We must distinguish between the two. Intelligence is much vaster than consciousness. We can have unconscious intelligence.

智慧不同于意识。我们必须区分这两者。 智慧比意识广阔得多。我们可以有无意识的智慧。

What is consciousness?

什么是意识？

What is consciousness? There is a waking consciousness, there is hidden consciousness; consciousness of certain parts of me, of the superficial mind, and a lack of total awareness of the deeper layers of consciousness.

什么是意识？有清醒的意识，有隐藏的意识； 对我某些部分、对表层头脑的意识，以及对更深层意识缺乏完全的觉察。

I would say, Krishnaji, that there is a consciousness in which thought operates, then there is a consciousness where attention is and where there is seeing; and a consciousness which is unconscious of thought. I see these three states as they operate in me.

克里希那吉，我会说，有一种思想在其中运作的意识， 然后有一种注意力所在、看所在发生的意识； 还有一种对思想无意识的意识。我看到这三种状态在我内在运作。

Three states which are the memory, -

三种状态，即记忆——

Being awake when thought is not, -

思想不在时的清醒——

Wait, wait. The memory, the operation of memory as thought, as action; then attention, a state of attention where there is no thinker.

等等。记忆，记忆作为思想、作为行动的运作； 然后是注意力，一种没有思想者的注意力状态。

And a state of being asleep when you are not aware of thought nor of attention.

以及一种当你既没有觉察到思想也没有觉察到注意力时的沉睡状态。

So you are saying there is the operation of thought, memory, having been and will be. Then there is a state of attention and there is a state in which there is neither attention nor thought, but a sense of being half asleep.

所以你是说，有思想、记忆、过去和未来的运作。 然后有一种注意力的状态， 还有一种既没有注意力也没有思想、但有一种半睡半醒感觉的状态。

Half awake, half asleep.

半醒半睡。

All this is what you would call consciousness. Right?

所有这些都是你所谓的意识。对吗？

In all these states whether consciously or unconsciously, sensory perceptions are in operation.

在所有这些状态中，无论是有意识还是无意识，感官知觉都在运作。

Do not bring in the unconscious. Do not call the unconscious a form of consciousness.

F：不要引入无意识。不要把无意识称为意识的一种形式。

I wanted to ask whether we cannot include dreams also into it; that is the unconscious part.

我想问我们是否也能把梦包含进去；那是无意识的部分。

Dreams are dreams because they become conscious.

梦之所以是梦，是因为它们变得有意识。

The state in which one spends a large part of the day, one goes out, images come and go; that is still consciousness.

一个人一天中大部分时间所处的状态，外出，形象来来去去；那仍然是意识。

This is a patchy thing. The point is consciousness is not a continuous phenomenon.

这是一个不连贯的东西。关键在于意识不是一个连续的现象。

Can we start this way? I am just being tentative - there is consciousness, wide or narrow, deep or shallow. As long as there is a centre which is conscious of itself, that centre may expand or contract. That centre says I am aware or not aware. That centre can attempt to go beyond the limitations which it has placed around itself. That centre has its deep roots in the cave and super-ficially operates. All that is consciousness. In all that there must be a centre.

我们可以这样开始吗？我只是试探性的——存在意识，或宽或窄，或深或浅。 只要有一个意识到自身的中心，那个中心就可以扩展或收缩。 那个中心说“我觉察到了”或“我没有觉察到”。 那个中心可以试图超越它在自己周围设置的局限。 那个中心在洞穴里有其深根，并在表面上运作。 所有这些都是意识。在这一切中，必然有一个中心。

May I ask you a question? Let us be very careful. Would you say there is no operation of consciousness in you?

我可以问您一个问题吗？让我们非常小心。 您会说您内在没有意识的运作吗？

We will come to that presently. That is not the point.

我们稍后会谈到这一点。那不是重点。

I wanted to ask whether there is such a thing as the matrix in which there is not even a centre, because it is out of that the centre is formed?

我想问，是否存在一个甚至连中心都没有的母体，因为中心正是从那里形成的？

Matrix?

母体？

Matrix is thought; the matrix of temporality.

母体就是思想；时间性的母体。

Consciousness is that which registers. It is the only thing which distinguishes life from a state of death. As long as there is registering there is no death.

意识就是那个记录的东西。它是唯一区分生命与死亡状态的东西。 只要有记录，就没有死亡。

Are we speculating? Look, let us begin very simply. When are you actually conscious?

我们是在推测吗？看，让我们从非常简单的地方开始。你什么时候实际上是清醒的？

When I am awake, when I am aware.

当我醒着、当我觉察的时候。

I would begin very simply. When am I conscious?

我会从非常简单的地方开始。我什么时候是有意识的？

I am conscious of this discussion.

我对这场讨论有意识。

Let us keep it simple. When am I conscious? Either through sensory reaction, through a sensory shock, a sensory resistance, a sensory danger, a conflict in which there is pain-pleasure. It is only in those moments that I say I am conscious. I am aware of that lamp, the design; I perceive that there is a reaction and I say it is ugly or beautiful. Is not that the basis of all this? I do not want to speculate. I ask myself "when am I conscious?" When I am challenged, when there is an impact, conflict, pain, pleasure, then I am conscious.

让我们保持简单。我什么时候有意识？ 要么通过感官反应，要么通过感官冲击，感受上的抵制，感受到的危险，其中有苦与乐的冲突。 只有在那些时刻，我才说我是有意识的。 我意识到那盏灯，那种设计；我感知到那是一种反应，然后我说：它是丑陋的或美丽的。 那难道不是这一切的基础吗？我不想去猜测。 我问我自己“我什么时候有意识？” 当我受到挑戰時，当出现了一种影響、衝突、痛苦、快樂，我就有了意識。

But there may be no focus at all.

但是，可能根本没有焦点。

Wait Sir. I want to start here; otherwise we get lost in theory. This whole phenomenon is going on, whether there is a deliberate awareness or not, this thing is operating all the time. That is what we call consciousness.

等等，先生。我想从这里开始；否则我们会迷失在理论中。 这整个现象正在发生，无论是否是刻意的，这种事情一直在运作。 这就是我们所说的意识。

The response to impact.

对影响的回应。

You mean there is no photographic consciousness. I see a dust-bin....

你的意思是没有画面的意识。我看到一个垃圾桶……

But you are seeing it. The mind is registering it. That is, the brain cells are receiving all these impacts.

但是你在看它。頭腦正在記錄它。 也就是说，脑细胞正在接受所有这些影响。

And in that is there no classification as pain, pleasure?

难道没有对痛苦、快乐的分类吗？

Impact as pleasure, pain, conflict, sorrow, conscious, or unconscious, is going on all the time and there may be an awareness of all that at one moment, and at other moments there may not be. But it is going on all the time. So what is the next question?

快乐、痛苦、冲突、悲伤、有意或无意的影响一直在发生 可能在某些时刻意识到这一切，而在其他时刻却没有。 但它一直在进行。那么，下一个问题是什么？

This process itself is consciousness and the centre that observes is also part of consciousness.

这个过程本身就是意识，那个观察的中心也是意识的一部分。

What is the next question?

下一个问题是什么？

What is the nature of the unconscious?

无意识的本质是什么？

It is still the same. Only it is the deeper layer.

它仍然是同一个东西。只是它是更深的一层。

Why are we unconscious of the deeper layer?

为什么我们对更深的一层无意识？

Because superficially we are very active all the time.

因为我们在表面一直非常活跃。

So the density of the superficial layer prevents our being conscious of the deeper layers.

所以表层的密度阻碍了我们觉察到更深层。

I am making noises on the surface. It is like swimming on the surface. So what is my next question?

我在表面制造噪音。就像在水面游泳。那么我的下一个问题是什么？

Is it possible to integrate the various layers?

是否可能整合各个层面？

No.

不。

What is the relationship of thought to consciousness?

思想与意识的关系是什么？

I do not understand this question because thought is consciousness.

我不理解这个问题，因为思想就是意识。

Is there anything else but thought?

除了思想还有别的东西吗？

Why do you put that question?

你为什么要提出这个问题？

Because we started with the question that I observed you speak of a region where thought has a legitimate place and a region where thought has no legitimate place - and yet you say thought is consciousness.

因为我们开始时提出了一个问题：我观察到 您谈到一个思想有合法位置的领域和一个思想没有合法位置的领域 ——而您却说思想就是意识。

Slowly. Let us stop here. The first question was, is thought part of this whole thing? What is its relationship to consciousness? Consciousness is thought - pain, conflict, registration, memory, remembrance. When the superficial consciousness is making a lot of noise, you come and ask what is the relationship between thought and all that? Thought is all that.

慢一点。让我们停在这里。 第一个问题是，思想是这整个东西的一部分吗？它与意识的关系是什么？ 意识就是思想——痛苦、冲突、记录、记忆、回想。 当表层意识制造很多噪音时， 你过来问：思想与这一切的关系是什么？ 思想就是这一切。

You have said something just now - thought is part of all that. Then what is the rest?

您刚才说了一些话——思想是这一切的一部分。那剩下的部分是什么？

All this is consciousness. Thought comes into operation when the "I" wants to localize.

所有这一切都是意识。当“我”想要局部化时，思想就开始运作。

That is right.

没错。

When the brain is cut off then there is no thought.

当大脑被切断时，就没有思想。

Which is the memory squeezed, held and paralysed. All that we have described, memory, everything, is consciousness. Now thought comes into operation when I am interested in a part of this. The scientist is interested in the material phenomena, the psychologist in his area, because he has limited the field of investigation. Then thought comes as a systematizer. F. Is thought the non-self-consciousness?

即被挤压、被抓住、被麻痹的记忆。我们所描述的一切，记忆，一切，都是意识。 现在，当我对此中的某一部分感兴趣时，思想就开始运作。 科学家对物质现象感兴趣，心理学家对他的领域感兴趣， 因为他限定了调查的领域。然后思想作为系统化者出现。 F. 思想是非自我意识吗？

When "P" asks what is the relationship between thought and consciousness, I think that is a wrong question.

当“P”问思想与意识之间的关系是什么时，我认为那是一个错误的问题。

Why?

为什么？

There is no relationship between the two because there are no two. Thought is not something separate from all this.

两者之间没有关系，因为不存在两者。思想不是与这一切分离的东西。

Is thought part of it or is thought all?

思想是它的一部分，还是思想就是全部？

Go slow. I do not want to say something which is untrue.

慢一点。我不想说不真实的话。

Thought is co-extensive with consciousness. Let us not sub-divide.

思想与意识是共外延的。我们不要再细分了。

"P" asks "F", a very simple question. What is the relationship between thought and all this?

“P”问“F”，一个非常简单的问题。思想与这一切的关系是什么？

Which is the "other". She has no business to speak of the two as separate.

哪个是“另一个”。她无权把两者当作分离的东西来谈论。

I won't accept this so easily because in everything "K" says the "other is posited. Thought has a legitimate place in the field of technology and it has no legitimate place in the other field and if you were to perform an operation and wipe out thought, it is not enough. Therefore the "other" is posited.

我不会这么轻易接受，因为在“K”所说的一切中，“另一个”都被设定了。 思想在技术领域有合法的位置，在另一个领域没有合法的位置， 而且如果你做一场手术消除思想，那还不够。因此“另一个”被设定了。

What I am trying to say is, is there in consciousness space which is not covered by thought?

我想说的是，在意识中是否存在未被思想覆盖的空间？

Quite right.

很对。

I am not at all sure. I do not say you are not right. So go on.

我一点把握都没有。我没有说你们不对。所以继续吧。

I say there is space in consciousness which is not thought and that is part of the human heritage. It is there.

我说意识中有不是思想的空间，那是人类传承的一部分。它就在那里。

I do not think in consciousness there is any space.

我不认为意识中有任何空间。

I want to put another question to you. When I perceive you and listen to the whole thing operating, there is no movement of thought, but I am totally conscious. I cannot say -

我想向您提出另一个问题。 当我感知您、倾听整个运作时，没有思想的活动，但我完全清醒。我不能说——

Why do you call that consciousness? Wait, go slow. "A" says there is space in consciousness. We have to answer that question.

你为什么称之为意识？等等，慢一点。 “A”说意识中有空间。我们必须回答那个问题。

Whenever you make a statement like that, you immediately come to this that wherever there is space there is a boundary.

每当你做出这样的陈述时， 你立刻就得出这样的结论：哪里有空间，哪里就有边界。

I may be using the wrong word.

我可能用错了词。

You have used the right word. But we do not see that space cannot be contained in a frontier, in a boundary, in a circle.

你用对了词。 但我们没有看到空间不能被容纳在边界、界限、圆圈之内。

It is not space, if it is held within a circle, a square, a rectangle. In one sense, of course, it is space.

如果它被容纳在圆圈、正方形、矩形之内，那就不是空间了。 当然，从某种意义上说，它是空间。

Where there is a border there is no space.

有边界的地方就没有空间。

According to the scientists, time and space are bound together.

根据科学家的说法，时间和空间是绑定在一起的。

But when we say consciousness has space, then consciousness has time. Do not call that space. Space exists only when there is time. Time is limitation. Space in the sense in which we use the word does not exist in consciousness. That space is something else. Leave that for the moment. Now what is the next question?

但是当我们说意识有空间时，那么意识就有时间。不要称之为空间。 只有在有时间的时候，空间才存在。时间是限制。 我们使用这个词意义上的空间在意识中并不存在。那个空间是别的东西。 暂时不谈这个。现在下一个问题是什么？

If we can take it from this point, I ask what is the relationship of thought to consciousness. Is thought contained in consciousness?

如果我们可以从这里出发，我问：思想与意识的关系是什么？ 思想被包含在意识中吗？

Do not use the word relationship. That means the two; thought means all that. Thought is consciousness. Do not put it in any other way.

不要用“关系”这个词。那意味着两者；思想就是那一切。 思想就是意识。不要用任何其他方式来表达。

Yes. Thought is consciousness, listening is consciousness, learning is consciousness. If thought is consciousness, is thought not related to seeing as consciousness?

是的。思想是意识，倾听是意识，学习是意识。 如果思想就是意识，思想难道不与作为意识的“看”相关吗？

Put the question this way. Is there a state of mind when there is no learning at all? You see the question?

用这种方式提问。是否存在一种根本没有学习的头脑状态？你看到这个问题了吗？

You have left us far behind now.

您把我们远远抛在后面了。

There are fields in which we operate without consciousness. Most of our relationships are beyond the reach of consciousness. I operate unconsciously.

F：有些领域我们在没有意识的情况下运作。 我们大多数关系都超出了意识的范围。我无意识地运作。

I want to go slowly, please. Thought is consciousness, listening is consciousness and learning is consciousness. Listening, seeing, learning, hearing, is part of all this, and memorizing and reacting to that memory is part of all this.

我想慢一点。思想是意识，倾听是意识，学习是意识。 倾听、看、学习、听，是这一切的一部分， 记忆和对记忆的反应也是这一切的一部分。

When any one of these is operating, there is no other. What you then say is understandable. Then there is no duality. Now we take the next step. When each of these operates, it is consciousness.

当这些中的任何一个在运作时，就没有其他的。 您所说的就很好理解了。那时就没有二元性。 现在我们进入下一步。当这些中的每一个运作时，它就是意识。

And it is not a dualistic consciousness.

而且它不是二元性的意识。

Is it the part operating?

是部分在运作吗？

I would not use the word part. It is the focalizing of consciousness. It is not the whole of consciousness. Look, I say a few words in French or Italian; at that moment there is just that.

我不会用“部分”这个词。 它是意识的聚焦。它不是意识的全部。 看，我说几句法语或意大利语；在那一刻，就只有那个。

What about the English?

那英语呢？

It is still there. When thought is operating in that specific field, there is no duality. When thought compares that particular operation to another then there is duality. Right? I say how marvellous that lamp is. It is finished. But when thought says I wish I had it in my room, then there is duality. See what has been found, when there is the simple functioning of thought without any motive, there is no duality.

它仍然在那里。 当思想在那个特定领域中运作时，没有二元性。 当思想将那个特定运作与另一个进行比较时，就有了二元性。对吗？ 我说那盏灯真美妙。这就结束了。 但当思想说“我希望我房间里也有一盏”时，就有了二元性。 看看发现了什么：当思想在没有动机的情况下简单运作时，就没有二元性。

This again is very difficult - thought is motive.

这又非常困难——思想就是动机。

No. What is thought? I have a memory of that sunset - I see that sunset. It is recorded at that moment, it is finished. But thought comes along and says....

不。什么是思想？我对那个日落有记忆——我看到那个日落。 在那一刻它被记录下来，结束了。但思想过来说……

I am saying thought is motive, not the registration, because thought is word, word is loaded, word is meaning.

我说思想是动机，不是记录，因为思想是词语，词语承载着意义。

There is memory of that sunset, then thought says, I wish it would happen again. In that, motive operates.

有那个日落的记忆，然后思想说：“我希望它再发生一次。” 在其中，动机在运作。

Yes Sir. When you look at that sunset, motive is irrelevant.

是的，先生。当你看那个日落时，动机是不相关的。

Sunset is an impersonal thing, let us not take that. I am jealous. There is a movement of jealousy as thought. You see Krishnaji, this is in some subtle way connected with the problem of containing - space - time -

日落是一件非私人的东西，让我们不要用那。 我嫉妒。有一股嫉妒的运动。 你看，克里希那吉，这在某种隐秘的程度上，包含了 —— 空间 —— 时间 —— 这个问题。

"P", you just now said jealousy. Jealousy is the factor of duality - that is, my wife looks at another man, and I feel jealous because I possess her, she is mine. But if I observe, if I am aware that she is not mine from the beginning, then the factor of jealousy does not enter. She is a free human being as I am a free human being. I allow her freedom.

普普尔，你刚才说嫉妒。嫉妒是二元性的因素 —— 也就是说，我的妻子看着另一个男人，我感到嫉妒，因为我占有她，她是我的。 但是，如果我观察，如果我从一开始就觉察到她不是我的，那么嫉妒的因素就不会进入。 她是一个自由的人，就像我一样自由。我允许她的自由。

I understand that. But we are talking about the structure of thought. Thought arises in consciousness. In itself there is no duality.

我理解那。但我们谈论的是思想的这种结构。 思想在意识中产生。本身没有二元性。

There is duality only when there is the operation of motive, measurement, comparison. In the observation of a lovely sunset, in seeing the light, the shadow, there is no duality. The word "beautiful" may be dualistic in terms of the ugly, but I am using the word without comparison. The moment I say I wish I had it again, begins the dualistic process. That is all.

只有出现了动机、测量、比较的运作时，才有二元性。 在观察美丽的日落时，在看到光、影时，没有二元性。 “美丽”这个词，对于丑陋来说，可能是二元论的，但我使用这个词的时候，没有去比较。 当我说，我希望我再次拥有它的那一刻，开始了二元论的过程。仅此而已。

We have somehow moved away.

我们有点离题了。

I will come back, which is, consciousness is perception, hearing, seeing, listening, learning and the memory of all that and the responding according to that memory. All that is consciousness, whether or not focalized. In that consciousness is time; time which creates space because it is enclosed. Let us stop there. In that there is duality, non-duality, the conflicts - I must, I must not - the whole of that field is consciousness. All that is consciousness. And in that there is no space at all because it has boundaries, frontiers, which are limitations.

我会回来的，那就是， 意识是感知、听见、看到、倾听、学习和所有这些记忆，以及根据该记忆而做出的反应。 所有这一切都是意识，无论是否焦点化。 在那意识中，就是在时间中；时间创造出空间，因为它是封闭的。让我们就此打住。 在这里有二元性，非二元性，衝突 —— 我必須，我不能 —— 这整个领域就是意識。 这一切都是意识。 在这一点上，根本没有空间，因为它有界线，边界，也就是限制。

There is another factor which I would like to have included. There are the perceptions of various peoples of the world - of the African Continent, of the Latin American Continent; there is some kind of movement constantly going on; there are the findings of the physicists, the biologists - the perceptions and experiences of the world are syphoning into my consciousness. How can we ignore all that? If we only take the "I" and see the source of it, it is not enough: What is this process by which that thing is syphoning into me? The movement of the "I" as thought is something that is constantly being fed and renewed by that. Unless I see this process, I do not understand.

这里还有一个因素，我想把它包括在内。 这世界上，有各国人民的感知 —— 非洲大陆、拉丁美洲大陆， 有一种不断进行的运动； 物理学家，生物学家的发现 —— 这些感知和这个世界的体验，正进入我的意识。 我们怎么能忽视这一切呢？如果我们只是捉住这个“我”来看它的源头，那是不够的： 那个吸进我体内的东西的过程是什么？ 作为思想活动的“我”，不断被喂食和更新。 除非我看到这个过程，否则我就不理解。

We said, Sir, the whole of this field of consciousness is the movement of contraction and expansion, a movement of information, knowledge, registration of knowledge, motivation, change, the political theme, what is going on in the Middle East, all that is happening in the environment, is part of me: I am the environment and the environment is the me. In that whole field there is the movement of the me. I like the Arabs and I do not like the Jews - within this consciousness, this comes up -

我们说过，先生，整个意识领域是收缩和扩张的运动， 一个包含了信息、知识、知识的记录、动机、改变、政治主题、中东正在发生的事情、环境中发生的一切的运动，都是我的一部分： 我就是这个环境，这个环境就是我。在整个领域里，就是这位“我”的运动。 我喜欢阿拉伯人，我不喜欢犹太人 —— 在这个意识中，这位（‘我’）出现了 ——

I question that. I say when I see all that, I am not even taking sides because there are the African tribes liberated and then caught up in militarism and all that.

我对此表示质疑。我说，当我看到这一切时，我甚至没有站在任何一边， 因为，有些非洲部落被解放了，然后陷入了军国主义等等。

See what happens. Colonialism, freedom from colonialism, the tribe, then the identification with the tribe as the me who belongs to the tribe.

看看在发生什么。殖民主义，摆脱殖民主义的自由，部落， 接着，认同于这个部落，也就是这位我，并从属于这个部落。

In this wide canvas we see thought is syphoning into this focus which we call consciousness.

在这幅广阔的画卷上，我们看到思想正在吮吸这些，并纳入我们称之为意识的焦点中。

All that is consciousness. Consciousness creates the mischief by saying, "I like", "I do not like". I see that, I am a witness to this "I like" and "I do not like" also, because that is part of this movement over which I have no control at all.

那一切就是意识。意识通过说“我喜欢”、“我不喜欢”来制造灾难。 我看到那，对于这些“我喜欢”、“我不喜欢”来说，我是一个目击者， 因为那些是我根本无法控制的运动的一部分。

I would say that may be so. But that is not the problem. The problem is the identification which gives this weightage to the "I like" and "I don't like", that it builds around it.

我会说，可能是那样。但这不是问题所在。 问题在于这种认同，它赋予了“我喜欢“和”我不喜欢“，围绕着那，它被建立起来了。

Here I am born in India, with all the environment, all the superstitions, the riches and poverty, the sky, the hills, the economic, the social, the whole of that is me.

我出生在印度，带着所有的环境、所有的迷信、贫富、天空、山丘、经济、社会，整个就是我。

Something more.

还有更多。

Include the more.

包括更多。

The more is the entire historical and the pre-historical past. If you include all that, then choice disappears.

更多是指整个历史和史前的过去。如果你包括所有这些，那么选项就会消失。

Wait, Sir, I am all that, the past and the present and the projected future; I am born in India with all the culture of 50 years. That is all my point. That is what I call consciousness.

等等，先生，我就是过去、现在和预测出的未来； 我出生在印度，拥有50年的所有文化。这就是我的全部观点。这就是我所说的意识。

It is wider; it includes America, the whole world -

它更宽；它包括美国、整个世界 ——

But choice arises when you say you are a Hindu and I am a Muslim; when there is focalization through identification, there is then choice.

但是，当你说你是印度教徒而我是穆斯林时，就已经挑选； 当通过认同进行聚焦时，就在挑选。

Let us come back to what we were saying. All this is consciousness and the other is also a fact that when thought operates, thought is consciousness, listening, seeing is consciousness, and I ask the question "what is the relation between thought and consciousness?"

让我们回到我们所说的。 这一切都是意识，另一个也是一个事实， 当思想运作时，思想是意识，听，看是意识， 我问一个问题“思想和意识之间的关系是什么？”

It is a wrong question.

它是一个错误的问题。

All right. We say consciousness is thought, seeing is consciousness, listening is consciousness, thought is consciousness.

好的。我们说意识是思想，看是意识，听是意识，思想是意识。

All the heritage which "A" brought in is also consciousness, past, ancient, present and all that.

阿克尤特引入的所有遗产也是意识，过去，古代，现在等等。

You have been stating that it is legitimate for thought to operate in fields where knowledge is necessary and when it operates in other fields then it brings sorrow, pain, duality. The question is: Does the other state which you are talking about, is it also consciousness?

你一直说，在需要知识的领域内，思想的运作是合理的。 当它在其他领域运作时，它会带来悲伤、痛苦和二元性。 问题是: 你说的另一种状态，是否也是意识？

Let us examine that. Stick to that question. What do you say?

让我们来研究一下。坚持这个问题。你说什么？

I say it is consciousness because seeing is consciousness.

我说它是意识，因为看就是意识。

Seeing that light is consciousness.

看到光就是意识。

That is the first question.

那是第一个问题。

Stick to that question for the moment. Thought has a legitimate field of operation and if it impinges into other fields then it brings pain, suffering. That which operates in this area, is it still consciousness - consciousness as we know it with all the things we have put into it? The other is not.

暂时抓住这个问题。 思想有一个合法的运作领域，如果它影响到其他领域，那么它就会带来痛苦和苦难。 在这个领域运作的，它还是意识吗 —— 我们所知道的意识以及我们放入其中的所有东西？ 另一个不是。

The other is not what?

另一个不是什么？

It is not thought.

它不是思想。

But is it consciousness? I will open it out a little more. The sensory perceptions operate. Seeing, listening operates, therefore why do you say it is not consciousness?

但它是意识吗？我会再打开一点。 感官知觉在运作。看，听，在起作用，因此，你为什么说它不是意识？

I am saying consciousness in the sense that there is no conflict.

我说，在那个意义上说，意思是没有冲突的。

There is no conflict in consciousness. There is only conflict when consciousness operates as thought in the field where it has no legitimate place. Why should there be conflict in consciousness when thought is not operating?

意识中没有冲突。 只有当作为思想的意识在它没有合法的地位的领域内运作时，才有冲突。 当思想不运作时，为什么意识中有冲突？

There is no conflict at all there. Let us go slowly.

那里完全没有冲突。让我们慢一点。

Then what is it that operates there?

那么，那里的运作是什么？

Is intelligence consciousness? Intelligence is not consciousness.

智慧是意识吗？智慧不是意识。

The language of intelligence must be different from the language of thought.

智慧的语言一定不同于思想的语言。

Intelligence has no language, but it can use language. The moment it has language it is back again in the field. That intelligence having no language is not personal. It is not mine or yours.

智慧没有语言，但它可以使用语言。当它有语言的那一刻，它又回到了这个领域内。 没有语言的智慧不是个人的。它不是我的或你的。

It may not be personal but is it focalized?

它可能不是个人的，但它是焦点化的吗？

No, it appears to focalize.

不，它似乎在聚焦。

When it moves, does it focalize?

当它移动时，它会聚焦吗？

Of course, it must, but it is never in focalization.

当然，必须如此，但它从来都不焦点化的。

It is never held?

从来没有被抓住？

It is like holding the sea in the fist: it is part of the sea, but it is not the sea.

这就像用拳头握住大海：它是大海的一部分，它却不是大海。