In Buddhism they mention three categories of people in the world: the ordinary worldly man who has his pleasures, pain, etc; the path-winner, the person who has a glimpse of the direction; then the arhat. The worldly man might perform rituals but he is still a worldly man till he has an experience, a glimpse of the direction. The path-winner wanders away but always comes back, till such time when there is no more going back to the first stage.
在佛教中，他们提到世界上有三类人： 拥有快乐、痛苦等等的普通世俗人； 路途的赢家，瞥见方向的人； 然后是阿罗汉。 世俗的人可能会参加宗教仪式，但他仍然是一个世俗的人，直到他有了体验，瞥见了方向。 道路途的赢家徘徊到远方，但总是又回来，直到再也不回到第一阶段的时刻。
A man who is of the world has a glimpse of the path - how does he have it? And once he is on the path he may wander back and forth, wander and come back to the path and finally settle down and reach the state of being an arhat. Are you asking how the worldly man is to have a glimpse?
一个世俗之人能瞥见这条路 —— 他是如何做到的？ 一旦他走上了这条路，他可能会来回徘徊， 徘徊着又回到小路上，最后安定下来，达到成为阿罗汉的状态。 你在问世俗之人如何瞥见吗？
What is sadhana? sadhana means to attain, to prepare that by which you attain siddhi. siddhi means goal.
什么是修行？修行的意思是达到，你为获得悉地（siddhi）而准备。悉地的意思是目标。
That through which you attain a goal - a system, a method, a process; that means time.
你为了实现目标而利用一个系统、一种方法、一个过程；这就意味着时间。
Does it imply time? It does not necessarily imply time.
这是否意味着时间？它并不一定意味着时间。
If I have to go through the gate to attain, going through the gate to attain is time. That is a process of time. Sadhana implies a process of time.
如果我必须通过大门才能达到，那么通过大门才能达到就是时间。 这是一个时间的过程。修行意味着一个时间的过程。
Tradition also says sadhanas are useless.
传统也说修行是无用的。
Most people insist on sadhana, though they say it is not necessary. It has become part of the tradition.
大多数人坚持修行，尽管他们说没有必要。它已成为传统的一部分。
They say it is better to go through sadhana, but they do not guarantee that you will reach through sadhana.
他们说修行是更好的选择，却不保证你能达到。
The word sadhana implies a process and process means things put together, and the putting together means time. Even the most scientific concept of time is things put together in a horizontal or vertical position. So sadhana means time. Though you may say it is not necessary, the word implies time. So, what is the question, Sir; what does tradition say?
修行这个词意味着一个过程，过程意味着事物放在一起，而放在一起意味着时间。 即使是最科学的时间概念，也是将事物放在水平或垂直位置。 所以修行的意思是时间。虽然你可能会说没有必要，但这个词暗示了时间。 那么，先生，问题是什么？传统怎么说？
The Buddhist tradition says that a man in sorrow has a glimpse of this. Then he is the path-winner and then he works out his salvation and becomes an arhat. What kind of operation or movement is involved in the second stage?
佛教传统说，悲伤之中的人能瞥见这一点。 然后他是路途的赢家，然后他解决自己的救赎，成为阿罗汉。 第二阶段涉及什么样的操作或运动？
They say when you get into the non-dual state, there is no going back.
他们说当你进入非二元状态时，就没有回头路了。
How do you come to it?
你是怎么到达的？
Since it is not a process, they do not say how you come to it. They say you cannot come to it by hearing people, by studying, by rituals and sadhana. They put it negatively.
因为这不是一个过程，他们不会说你是如何到达的。 他们说你不能通过听人们，通过学习，通过仪式和修行来达到它。他们否定这一切。
It is a question of duality. Being in the world implies duality, then there is a getting a glimpse of a non-dualistic state and the getting back to the dualistic state; is that it?
这是一个二元性问题。身处世界意味着二元性， 然后瞥见非二元状态并回到二元状态；是这样吗？
They say there is no duality at all, but on account of the intellectual process you create duality. Once you realize the non-duality, then there is no question of worldliness creeping into it.
他们说根本没有二元性，但是由于智力过程，你创造了二元性。 一旦你意识到非二元性，那么就没有世俗性潜入其中的问题。
Living in a dualistic state as human beings do, by negating rituals, will that get you to a non-dualistic state? You may say that there is no dualistic mould or level; a dimension in which there is no duality at all. The mind caught in the dualistic state, by negating beliefs, rituals, etc., will it come to the "other"? Is that what the tradition says? Shall we approach this problem in a simple way, which is: one lives in a dualistic state. That is a fact. One lives in the dualistic state in which there is pain, sorrow, conflict and all that. And man says, how am I to get out of it? The non-dualistic state is merely a theory. Man does not know it. He does not know in the sense he might have read about it, but it is secondhand information. It has no value. Disregard what others have said about it. I only know a dualistic state in which there is sorrow, pain. That is a fact. That is from where I start.
像人类一样生活在二元状态中，通过否定仪式，这会让你进入非二元状态吗？ 你可能会说，没有二元的模式或水平；一个完全没有二元性的维度。 陷入二元对立状态的头脑，通过否定信仰、仪式等，会不会遇到“异类”？ 这是传统所说的吗？ 我们是否应该用一种简单的方式来解决这个问题，即：一个人生活在二元论的状态中。这是事实。 一个人生活在二元论的状态中，在这种状态中，有痛苦、悲伤、冲突等等。 人说，我该如何摆脱它？非二元论状态只是一种理论。 人不知道它。 也就是说，他可能读过它，但这是二手信息。 它没有价值。无视别人对它的说法。 我只知道一种二元状态，其中有悲伤，痛苦。这是事实。这就是我开始的地方。
Some people have conflict and misery and realize that the dualistic state is the cause of the trouble. So they want to get rid of it. Some do not start from this, but they feel discontented and read, and having read, they start imagining the non-dual state.
有些人有冲突和痛苦，意识到二元状态是麻烦的原因。 所以他们想摆脱它。 有些人不是从这个开始的，而是感到不满，阅读，阅读后，他们开始想象非二元状态。
It is a theory. The fact is one thing and the idea about the fact is another. We are not concerned with the man who supplies a conclusion derived by a specialist. We are only discussing about a man who is in conflict and is discontented with that conflict. How does he get out of it?
这是一个理论。事实是一回事，关于事实的想法是另一回事。 我们不关心这位支持专家得出的结论的人。 我们只是在讨论一个处于冲突中并对冲突感到不满的人。 他如何摆脱困境？
The traditional way is to explore through books. Man attains by negating and resolves by knowledge.
传统的方式是通过书籍来探索。人通过否定来获得，通过知识来解决。
Proceed step by step. I am in conflict. Now, how do I resolve it? You say by knowledge. What is knowledge?
一步一步来。我处在冲突中。那么，我如何解决它？你说通过知识。什么是知识？
The realization of conflict is knowledge.
对冲突的认识就是知识。
I do not have to realize it, I am in conflict. I know I am in conflict, in pain, in sorrow. What do you mean by knowledge and what do you mean by conflict? To know that I am in conflict, is that knowledge? Or do you call knowledge what I should do about that conflict? When you use the word "knowledge", what do you mean by that? What is the sanskrit equivalent of that word?
我不需要认识它，我就处在冲突中。我知道我处在冲突、痛苦、悲伤中。 你说的知识是什么意思？你说的冲突是什么意思？ 知道我处在冲突中，那是知识吗？ 还是你把我应该对那个冲突做什么称为知识？ 当你使用“知识”这个词时，你指的是什么？ 这个词的梵文对应词是什么？
Jnana.
Jnana。
What does that mean? Knowledge about what? Is it the knowledge about the cause of conflict?
那是什么意思？关于什么的知识？是关于冲突原因的知识吗？
Jnana will also apply to the nature of conflict and how it arises.
Jnana也适用于冲突的本质以及它如何产生。
How does it come into being and how does it work? What is the nature and structure of it? To know the cause is to know the structure and the nature of pain. Do you call that knowledge?
它是如何产生的？它是如何运作的？它的本质和结构是什么？ 知道原因就是知道痛苦的结构和本质。你称之为知识吗？
Sir, jnana has been divided as that which pertains to the phenomenal world and that which refers to the non-phenomenal world.
先生，jnana被分为属于现象世界的和指向非现象世界的。
What do you mean by conflict?
你说的冲突是什么意思？
Conflict is duality.
冲突就是二元性。
We know what the word "knowledge" is. What do you mean by the word "conflict"?
我们知道“知识”这个词是什么意思。你说的“冲突”这个词是什么意思？
Dwandva - conflict between the two - hot and cold, pleasure and pain, happiness and sorrow.
Dwandva——两者之间的冲突——热与冷、快乐与痛苦、幸福与悲伤。
So let us proceed: I am in conflict. I want to go out and I want to stay here; I am unhappy and I want to do something which makes for happiness. I acquire knowledge about it by seeing the cause, the nature, the structure of this conflict. The understanding of the cause, the nature, the structure of this conflict is knowledge: And knowing that, having this knowledge, will it free the mind from conflict? So you are saying knowledge will free the mind from conflict, right, Sir? Now, I know that I am jealous because my wife looks at another man or you have a better job than me. I know why I am jealous. I know the nature and structure of jealousy, which is: I would like to be in your place. I would like my wife not to look at you: I know the cause, I know the effect; the reaction of it is I am jealous. I see the full structure of it as an engineer sees a structure, and the knowing of it, does it free me from it? Obviously it does not.
那么让我们继续：我处在冲突中。我想出去，又想留在这里； 我不快乐，我想做些带来快乐的事情。 我通过观察这个冲突的原因、本质、结构来获取关于它的知识。 对这个冲突的原因、本质、结构的理解就是知识： 而知道这些、拥有这些知识，它能让头脑从冲突中解脱吗？ 所以你是说知识会让头脑从冲突中解脱，对吗，先生？ 现在，我知道我嫉妒，因为我的妻子看别的男人，或者你比我有一份更好的工作。 我知道我为什么嫉妒。我知道嫉妒的本质和结构，那就是：我想处在你的位置。 我希望我的妻子不要看你：我知道原因，我知道结果；它的反应就是我嫉妒。 我像一个工程师看一个结构一样看清了它的整个结构， 而知道它，能让我从中解脱吗？显然不能。
Knowledge which will resolve conflict is the kind of knowledge in which there is no duality:
能够解决冲突的知识是那种没有二元性的知识：
How do you know - because somebody else has said it?
你怎么知道——因为别人说过？
By looking into why jealousy arises. Why should I be jealous?
通过探究嫉妒为何产生。我为什么要嫉妒？
That is analysis. Does analysis free the mind from conflict?
那是分析。分析能让头脑从冲突中解脱吗？
Analysis alone will not.
仅靠分析不能。
Knowledge is the result of analysis. I analyse. I see why I am jealous. I was angry with my wife and so on, and she has left me. Does this knowledge free me from the fear of living alone without her?
知识是分析的结果。我分析。我看清了我为什么嫉妒。 我对妻子生气等等，然后她离开了我。这种知识能让我摆脱没有她独自生活的恐惧吗？
The feeling of jealousy does cease.
嫉妒的感觉确实会停止。
How do you propose to end jealousy? I have analysed myself till I am sick, and the next minute I am jealous again.
你打算如何结束嫉妒？我分析自己直到厌倦，但下一分钟我又嫉妒了。
That means by analysis you have not ended jealousy.
这意味着通过分析你并没有结束嫉妒。
Analysis is part of knowledge. I have accumulated knowledge because I have analysed. I am jealous because I have tried to possess her. The realization of this is knowledge; and I possess her because I am afraid to live alone - and this is part of knowledge. And you are saying, through analysis there is accumulation of know1edge, and that knowledge is going to free you from jealousy. Does it?
分析是知识的一部分。我积累了知识，因为我已经分析过。 我嫉妒，因为我试图占有她。这种意识，就是知识； 而我占有她，因为我害怕独自生活 —— 这是知识的一部分。 你说，通过分析，就能积累知识，知识会把你从嫉妒中解放出来。是吗？
No, Sir. I may analyse jealousy, as she is my wife and she has gone to another man; I may also say that there is no difference at all, what does it matter if she goes? It all depends on the individual.
不，先生。我可以分析嫉妒；因为她是我的妻子，她跟另一个男人走了； 我也可以说，完全没有区别，她离开又有什么关系？ 这完全取决于个人。
That is all intellection. Intellection is part of analysis. As long as there is the intellect, knowledge, you are not free. So all knowledge is intellectual.
这都是智力。智力是分析的一部分。 只要有智力、知识，你就不自由。所以所有的知识都是智力的。
Jnana is not that intellectua1 process. The intellectual process ends with manas and buddhi.
Jnana不是那个智力过程。智力过程以玛纳斯和佛陀结束。
So you are saying there is another factor which is beyond intellect, knowledge. Analysis, accumulation of knowledge through analysis is one kind of knowledge, and there is another, some other factor beyond that.
所以你是说还有另一个因素，超越了智力、知识。 分析，通过分析积累知识是一种知识，除此之外还有另一种，其他的因素。
Which enables the buddhi to see, to discriminate.
使佛陀能够看到，能够辨别。
How is knowledge acquired? Let us take the first step.
知识是如何获得的？让我们迈出第一步。
I have been on that road many times and I have acquired knowledge. I have seen that person often and I have talked to him. He has been friendly, non-friendly. All that is knowledge. I have accumulated through experience, through analysis, through incidents, information, which is called knowledge.
我在这条路上走过很多次，我学到了知识。 我经常见到那个人，我和他谈过。他一直很友好，不友好。 所有这些都是知识。我通过体验，通过分析，通过事件，积累信息，这被称为知识。
What makes that knowledge possible? What makes experience possible?
是什么使那种知识成为可能？ 是什么让体验成为可能？
Experience is possible only when there is the experiencer. You hurt me, that is experience. You say something which I do not like, and that hurts me. That is an experience, then that experience becomes knowledge. Will that knowledge end conflict?
只有当有体验者时，体验才有可能。你伤害了我，那是体验。 你说了一些我不喜欢的话，这伤害了我。那是一种体验，然后这种体验就变成了知识。 这种知识会结束冲突吗？
No.
不。
Then what will end conflict? Do they say it is that entity which realizes the experiencer, who has gathered this knowledge that will end conflict? If so then there is a superior entity.
那么怎样才能结束冲突呢？他们是不是说 意识到这位体验者、这位知识收集者的实体，能结束冲突？ 如果是这样，那么就有一个超级实体。
There is a principle through which all these several experiences, all the disparate experiences of the individual are made possible. How do I know I am the experiencer?
有一个原则， 通过这个原则，所有这些体验，所有不同的个人体验都是可能的。 我怎么知道我是体验者？
Because I have experienced before. I know I am the experiencer because you have hurt me before. The knowledge, the previous knowledge makes me the experiencer.
因为我以前有这样的体验。我知道我是体验者，因为你以前伤害过我。 知识，以前的知识使我成为体验者。
I see sunlight; sunrise, I fee1 that is my experience of having seen the sun......
我看到阳光；日出，我感觉那就是自己看到太阳的体验……
Having seen the sunset once and seeing it day after day, the accumulation of that knowledge makes the experiencer.
看过一次日落，并且日复一日地看到它，那种知识的积累造就了体验者。
They postulate an entity which does not experience.
他们假设一个没有体验的实体。
The postulated entity is another opinion which I have acquired from somebody else. It is fairly simple and clear. First I am aware, I get to know I am in conflict. I analyse it. Through analysis I have acquired knowledge that I am jealous; that is simple. Analysis, observation, watching, have given me information why I am jealous, which is knowledge: And that knowledge apparently cannot get rid of jealousy. Then what will get rid of it? Do not invent another superior seLf: I know nothing about it: I know only conflict, analysis, knowledge and I see knowledge does not get rid of conflict.
假设的实体是我从别人那里获得的另一种观点。 它相当简单明了。首先，我意识到，我知道我处于冲突之中。我分析它。 通过分析，我获得了知识 —— ‘我嫉妒’；这很简单。 分析、观看、监视，给了我‘为什么嫉妒’的信息，这就是知识： 而这种知识显然无法摆脱嫉妒。那么，什么会摆脱它呢？ 不要发明另一个超级自我：我对它一无所知： 我只知道冲突、分析、知识，我看到知识不能摆脱冲突。
What is the sub-stratum of all experience? What is that out of which all experiences arise? What is the matrix?
所有体验的底层是什么？所有体验都是从哪里产生的？什么是基质？
Is it an accumulation of experience? The matrix is things put together. The matrix of the carpet is the warp and woof. The matrix of experience is experience. Are you asking, Sir, what is the thread that makes experience or are you asking what the matter is upon which the experience leaves a pattern?
它是体验的积累吗？基质是东西堆叠在一起。 地毯的基质是经线和纬线。体验的基质是体验。 先生，你是不是在问，创造体验的线是什么？ 或者，你是在问，体验在什么物质上留下了记号？
Traditionalists consider that knowledge as gathering of experience, memory, belongs to the realm of manas and buddhi, and this is made possible by the atman which sheds light, and without atman, the manas cannot function.
传统主义者认为知识是体验、记忆的集合，属于玛纳斯和佛陀的领域， 这是通过阿特曼的发光而实现的，没有阿特曼，玛纳斯就无法运作。
What is the material upon which experience leaves a mark? Is there such material? Now what is it on which any experience leaves a mark? Obviously, it is the brain. The fact is, the brain is the material; the cells are the material on which every incident leaves a mark, every experience, conscious or unconscious. All the time the brain is receiving. I see that flower, it has already registered; I see you, it has already registered. Constant recording is going on. It is there. The racial inheritance, personal inheritance; all this is leaving a mark on the brain.
体验在什么物质上留下了记号呢? 存在这样的物质吗? 现在，经验在什么物质上留下了标记？ 很显然，这种物质就是大脑。事实就是，这个大脑就是这种物质； 脑细胞是物质，在这种物质上面，每一件事情，每一次经历都自觉不自觉地留下一个记号。 大脑每时每刻都在接收信息。我看到鲜花，它已经在大脑中记录了下来；我看到你，这已经被记录了下来。 大脑在不停地记录。它就在那里。种族的遗传，个人的遗传，这一切都在大脑上留下了记号。
The function of the mind is energy.
头脑的功能是能量。
The registration of the brain is part of energy. The whole thing is energy. So brain is the repository of all recording - sensory, non-sensory. That is the tape which has been collected for centuries. That is knowledge. If you did not know where you lived, you could not go there. Because you have been there, you know it. Knowledge does not necessarily free the mind from conflict. Right? We see that. Then what will free the mind without the introduction of the atman which is part of the tradition, knowledge which I have acquired? Though I may call it atman, it is the same field of knowledge.
大脑的记录是能量的一部分。整个事物就是能量。 所以大脑是所有记录的存储库 —— 感官的，非感官的。那就是硬盘，里面装着几个世纪以来的收集品。 这就是知识。如果你不知道你住在哪里，你就不能去那里。因为你去过那里，你知道它。 知识不一定能把头脑从冲突中解放出来。 对吗？我们看到了这一点。 那么，如果没有阿特曼的引入，什么能解放头脑？阿特曼是我所获得的传统和知识的一部分？ 虽然我可以称之为阿特曼，但它是同一个知识领域。
How does it come within the field of knowledge?
它是如何进入知识领域的？
Unless I think about it, there is no atman.
除非我思考它，否则就没有阿特曼。
Thinking about it is not realizing it. It is not within the comprehension of thought.
思考它，并不是意识到它。它不在思想的理解范围内。
Thinking about something is still within the field of thought. A man who thinks about atman is still within the field of thought.
思考某件事仍然在思想领域之内。一个思考阿特曼的人仍然在思想领域内。
The man who talked of atman never thought he realized that. The only experience which they cite is that you have a sound deep sleep and you wake up. How do you remember that you had a sound sleep? In deep sleep the mind does not work.
那个说阿特曼的人从来没有思考，他意识到那。 他们引用的唯一体验是你有一个良好的深度睡眠，你苏醒。 你怎么记得你睡得很香？在深度睡眠中，这颗头脑没有工作。
How do you know when it does not work? The brain cells are working day and night. Only when you get up the next morning do you know that you are tired or you have had a good sleep, etc. They are all the functions of the brain. So atman is within the field of thought. It must be. Otherwise, you would not use that word. We are saying atman is part of the brain. Thought says it cannot solve the problem through thought and, therefore, there must be the atman.
你怎么知道它什么时候不工作？脑细胞日夜在工作。 只有当你第二天早上起床时，你才知道你累了或者你睡得很好，等等。 它们都是大脑的功能。所以阿特曼在思想领域之内。一定是。 否则，您将不会使用该词。我们说阿特曼是大脑的一部分。 思想说它不能通过思想解决问题，因此，必须有阿特曼。
But they have said the atman is outside experience.
但他们说，阿特曼在体验之外。
Explain the material of experience.
解释体验的材料。
I see the flower, I name it. There is a naming of it, the form, the verbalization; verbalization is the memory, because the brain has seen and says that is a flower.
我看到那朵花，我给它起名字。 它有一个命名，形式，言语化；言语化是记忆，因为大脑已经见过，就说那是一朵花。
Does it operate if I close my eyes?
如果我闭上眼睛，它会起作用吗？
Of course, shut your eyes, close your ears, you can still think. The moment I say there is God, the thinking about it is within the field of thought. The man who has not thought at all, to him there is no God. The ancient ones thinking about something superior, wanting something greater, said there was God. That was the product of thought. So that was within the field of knowledge.
当然，闭上眼睛，捂住耳朵，你依然可以思考。 当我说有上帝的那一刻，对它的思考就在思想领域内。 一个根本没有思考过的人，对他来说没有上帝。 古代人思考更高级的东西，想要更伟大的东西，说有上帝。 那是思想的产物。所以这是在知识领域之内。
Not much importance is given to God in the Upanishads. According to their conception God and brahman are the same.
在奥义书中没有给予上帝太多的重视。根据他们的观念，上帝和婆罗门是相同的。
You see, someone comes along who is not a Hindu and says God, Jesus. What is the difference? He has been brought up in his culture, and you in this culture say atman.
你看，有人不是印度教徒，说上帝，耶稣。区别在是什么？ 他在他的文化中长大，而处于这个文化中的你说阿特曼。
We say both. God is personal, atman is not personal.
我们说两者都有。上帝是私人的，阿特曼不是私人的。
They are all the product of thought. Look, how deceptive the mind has become, caught in words. I have accumulated knowledge about suffering and suffering does not end, and not knowing how to end it, thought says there must be some other factor. So it invents the atman. It thinks about it. Otherwise the atman would not have come into existence. So atman does not end it either, because it is part of knowledge. Knowledge about suffering has not ended suffering. The atman does not end suffering either.
它们都是思想的产物。瞧，头脑变得多么具有欺骗性，被言语所困。 我积累了关于受苦的知识，受苦不会结束，不知道如何结束它，思想说一定有其他因素。 所以它发明了阿特曼。它思考它。否则阿特曼就不会出现。 所以阿特曼也没有结束它，因为它是知识的一部分。关于受苦的知识并没有结束受苦。 阿特曼也没有结束受苦。
But they themselves have said that thought will not solve the problem.
但他们自己也说过，思想解决不了问题。
But atman is the product of thought.
但阿特曼是思想的产物。
But atman is experienced by them. It is their personal experience.
但阿特曼是被他们经验到的。那是他们个人的经验。
When they say they experience atman, what does it mean?
当他们说他们经验到阿特曼时，那是什么意思？
They say it cannot be described.
他们说它无法被描述。
Of course it cannot be, but it is part of thought.
当然无法描述，但它是思想的一部分。
To them it was not part of thought. They realized it.
对他们来说，它不是思想的一部分。他们证悟了它。
How do I realize anything? I must recognize it, must I not? What do I recognize?
我如何证悟任何东西？我必须认出它，不是吗？我认出什么？
Recognition means seeing a thing without the process of thought.
认出意味着在没有思想过程的情况下看到一样东西。
I recognize you because I have met you yesterday. If I did not, I would not know you.
我认出你，因为我昨天见过你。如果没见过，我就不认识你。
That is not the process by which you recognize brahman.
那不是你认出梵的过程。
Be simple. Let us talk logically. I must recognize a new experience. What is the process of recognition? I must have known it already, like the flower, the yellow flower - I could not recognize it if I had not seen it. So recognition of an experience is, that it has already been experienced. Therefore, atman has already been experienced to recognize it. It is, therefore, within the field of experience. So when they say you cannot experience it, what do they mean by it? The fact is, I suffer; I say "I want to end suffering". So, why do I bring in the atman? It has no value at all. It is like a man who is hungry and you describe food to him.
简单一点。让我们从逻辑上讲。我必须认出一种新的体验。识别的过程是什么？ 我一定已经知道了它，就像那朵花，那朵黄花 —— 如果我没有见过它，我就认不出它。 因此，对体验的识别是，它曾经被体验过。 因此，认出了阿特曼，它就已经被体验过。因此，它属于体验领域。 所以当他们说你不能体验它时，他们的意思是什么？ 事实是，我受苦;我说“我想结束受苦”。那么，我为什么要引入阿特曼呢？ 它根本没有价值。这就像一个饥饿的人，而你在他描述食物。
I agree that whatever they have said does not help.
我同意他们所说的都无济于事。
On the contrary, they have destroyed the mind by introducing a factor which does not help.
相反，他们通过引入一个无济于事的因素来摧毁这个头脑。
Yes.
是的。
See it. Say, I will never talk about the atman, it does not mean a thing. So, how do I face this? How can the mind resolve the factor of sorrow? Not through atman. That is too childish. It can only resolve it, not through knowledge, but by looking at it without knowledge.
看它。说，我永远不会谈论阿特曼，它什么也不是。那么，我该如何面对呢？ 头脑如何解决悲伤的因素？不是通过阿特曼。这太幼稚了。 它只能解决它，不是通过知识，而是通过没有知识的看。
Is this possible?
这可能吗？
Do not introduce atman. Try it. Test it out. The other you cannot test. Put it away completely. Then what happens? Then how do I look at suffering - with knowledge or without knowledge? Do I look at it with past eyes? Do I look with eyes which are filled with the past, therefore, translate everything in terms of the past?
不要介绍阿特曼。试试吧。测试一下。另一个您无法测试。把它完全收起来。然后会发生什么？ 那么我如何看受苦 —— 带着知识还是没有知识？ 我用过去的眼睛看它吗？我是否用充满过去的眼睛去看，因而用过去来翻译每一个东西？
We cannot use the past as a means to free ourselves from suffering.
我们不能用过去作为摆脱受苦的手段。
When you say that you see what suffering is, you are directly in relationship with suffering, not the observer observing suffering. I look at suffering without the image and the image is the past. The image of the past may be the atman. Of course, it is. Test it. Test the image as you would test it in the laboratory. In the same way you can test this. The other you cannot. The atman which I see is part of thought. There is no testing there at all.
当你说，你看到什么是受苦的时候，你是直接地与受苦有关系， 不是观察受苦的观察者。 我不带任何形象地去观察受苦。形象是过去。过去的形象可能是阿特曼。 当然是。测试它。像在实验室中测试一样测试这个形象。 以同样的方式，您可以对此进行测试。 另一个你不能。我看到阿特曼是思想的一部分。那根本无法测试。
Here there is testing. I am looking at this sorrow with past experience. My past experience divides the past as the past and the present. There is duality. The present is sorrow and I am looking at the present through the past, and translating it in terms of the past. If the mind can look at it without the past, there must be a different meaning altogether. So, I have to test it. Can the mind look without past memory? Can I look at that flower without past knowledge? Test it; you can do it or not do it.
这里有测试。我用过去的体验来看待这种悲伤。 我过去的体验将过去分为过去和现在。存在二元性。 现在就是悲伤，我在利用过去，观看现在，并用过去来翻译它。 如果头脑可以不用过去来看它，那么，一定有完全不同的意义。 所以，我必须测试它。头脑可以不携带过去的记忆吗？ 我可以在没有过去知识的情况下看那朵花吗？ 测试它；你可以做，也可以不做。