K: I wonder if we could discuss this morning what perception means. Apart from what the traditionalists and the professionals and the commentaries have said, what does perception mean? What is it to perceive? Is it a mere intellectual process or is it visual perception or is it a combination of both? Is it a psychosomatic state or is it something entirely different? The mind takes in much more than the eye does. So when we talk about perception, what do we mean by that word? Is it an intellectual perception, a verbal conclusion, a verbal comprehension? Does the eye see in a linear or horizontal dimension? B: You mean the eye as the sense-organ here? K: Yes.

克：我想，在今天上午，我们可以讨论感知意味着什么吗？ 除了传统主义者、专业人士和评论家所说的之外，感知意味着什么？ 感知是什么？它仅仅是一个智力过程，还是视觉上的感知，或者，是两者的结合？ 它是一种身心状态，还是某种完全不同的东西？ 这颗头脑比眼睛所吸收的要多得多。那么，当我们谈论感知时，这个词是什么意思？ 它是一种智力上的感知，一种言词上的结论，言词上的理解吗？ 眼睛的视觉，是线性的，还是水平的？ 芭：你是指作为感觉器官的眼睛？ 克：是的。

SW: Is the perception of the eye, the visual, sensory perception of the eye not uniform? We come to this room, I see the design of the carpet. Very soon I am seeing and not seeing. The physical eye is also not seeing all in a uniform state. There must be some factor other than the contact of the object and the senses in the awareness of "I see". The first awareness of inattention comes to me that way.

斯：眼睛的感知，眼睛的视觉、感官知觉是不均匀的吗？ 我们来到这个房间，我看到了地毯的设计。我很快就看到了，然后就不看它了。 作为生理上的眼睛，也不是总处于一种均匀地看的状态。 在觉察到“我在看”的那一刻，除了对象和感官的接触之外，一定有某个因素。 当我第一次意识到疏忽的那一刻，就是那样的。

K: I have not come to that point. I am trying to understand what that word perception conveys. I am not speaking of attention and inattention. All that I know is that I see. There is visual perception. There is sensory perception. I see you sitting there. Then there is the image which sensory perception plus the intellectual capacity of thought holds. That is what we generally call perception, is it not?

克：我还没有走到那个地步。我试图理解感知这个词在传达什么。 我不是在谈论注意和疏忽。我只知道我在看。 有视觉上的感知。有感官上的感知。我看到你坐在那里。 然后是这个印象，它由感官上的感受和思想上的智力合成。 这就是我们通常所说的感知，不是吗？

A: What is the meaning of the word "perception"? K: To perceive: where does inattention or attention come into this? A: I see an object. Then there is an image of that object. Then there is the memory of that image. Then I see something else and again the whole process begins.

阿：“感知”一词的含义是什么？ 克：感知，在感知的途中，疏忽或注意从何而来？ 阿：我看到一个对象。然后，有那个对象的形状。接着，有了那个形状的记忆。 然后，我看其它的东西，整个过程再一次开始。

K: All the sensory impressions, the impressions that are recorded, the conscious and the unconscious, the various images, conclusions, prejudices, all that is involved in perception. Look, there is visual perception and the various images that perception, association, prejudices, have built up. And I see you and I have another series of images, and so thousands and thousands of images are recorded, taped and held in the brain cells. And when I meet you I turn on attention and the images emerge. This is what we call perception, is it not? This is the machinery that is in operation in the word "perception", is it not? This is the ordinary operational process of perception. I want to see. That is all I know. Where does the trouble begin? Now, what is wrong with it?

克：所有的感官印象，被记录的印象， 这些有意的和无意的，各种的形状、结论、偏见，所有那些，都涉及到感知。 看，有视觉上的感知和各种观念 —— 通过抓取、联想、成见被建立。 我看见你，而且我还有另外的一系列的印象， 有成千上万的形状被记录，被录制并保存在脑细胞中。 当我遇见你，我调动注意力，这些印象浮现。 这就是我们所说的感知，不是吗？ “感知”这个词，就是指这种运转机制，不是吗？ 这是感知的普通运作过程。我想去看。那就是我所知道的一切。 这个麻烦从哪里开始？现在，它有什么问题？

A: The factor of sensitivity and the varying degrees of sensitivity, are they not a vital element in perception? My perception of squalor is different from that of yours. Can you separate perception from the degrees of sensitivity? Perception is not the same to you and me. K: When I have all these accumulated images, conscious or unconscious, my mind is loaded with them. Where is the place for sensitivity?

阿：敏感性的因素和敏感性的变化程度，它们不是感知中的重要因素吗？ 我对肮脏的感知，与你对它的感知，两者是不同的。 你能将感知与敏感度分开吗？对于你和我来说，感知是不一样的。 克：当我拥有所有这些积累的印象，无论是有意的还是无意的，我的头脑就被它们装满。 哪里还有敏感的立足之地？

A: Perception is not a passive act of memory. There is always something new which is there with every new perception. With every new response, which I call perception, the factor of degree is inherent. I do not understand why and from where the degree comes, because ignorance is imponderable. B: Even this seeing is like a camera; it sees its shutters, not the object. A: I look through the idea; then there is no perception.

阿：感知不是一种被动的记忆行为。 在每一次新的感知中，总有新的东西。 并具有一个新的回应，我称之为感知，程度的因素（敏感度）是固有的。 我不理解为什么有这种程度，以及它来自于哪里，因为无知是不可估量的。 芭：甚至，这样的看就如同照相，只看见按下快门的瞬间，而不是这个对象。 阿：我透过观念去看；那么，就没有感知。

K: The mind which is crowded with impressions and information about the object, sees. The mind, the brain, the whole structure is never empty. It is full and through this burden it looks. It looks at you with its associations, with jealousy, pleasure, pain. What is wrong with that? R: I am never face to face. I see there is sensory perception, then the images, then the like, dislike; those are facts also. They are facts which I do not realize. K: They are facts, as much as the fact that you are sitting here. Then what takes place? Each time I see you through a screen. What is wrong with that? Is it not a natural process? SW: In that state I do not see at all.

克：这是一颗充斥着与对象相关的印象和信息的头脑，看。 这颗头脑，这个脑袋，这整个框架从来不是空的。它是满的，透过这些负担，它去看。 它带着它的联想、嫉妒、快乐、痛苦来看你。这有什么问题？ 拉：我没有面对面地看。我看到，有感官上的感知，然后有这些画面，然后是喜欢或不喜欢；这些也是事实。 它们是事实，尽管我没有意识到。 克：它们是事实，就像你坐在这里一样。然后，在发生什么？ 每一次，我都透过屏幕来看你。这有什么问题？这不是一个自然的过程吗？ 斯：在那种状态中，我根本看不到。

SW: How is there safety? Am I really safe? K: Do not question it yet. Look at it. Otherwise you would not know your name, you would not know how to go to Bangalore, recognize your husband or wife. In that tradition, knowledge, experience, conclusions, there is nothing new, therefore there is nothing disturbing, therefore there is the feeling of complete safety. That is absolutely right.

斯：怎么会安全？我真的安全吗？ 克：先不要质疑它。看它。 否则你不会知道你的名字，你不会知道如何去班加罗尔，认出你的丈夫或妻子。 在那个传统、知识、体验、结论中，没有什么新鲜事， 因此，没有什么令人不安的，因此，有一种完全安全的感觉。那是绝对正确的。

SW: There is nothing to disturb. K: Anything new is disturbing and as the brain cells need order they find order in the past. A: But to come back to your question, what is wrong with that? K: There is nothing wrong in that. I am enquiring into the nature of sensory, visual perception, into the operations of the brain, the mechanism of thought, and how the mind operates; there is safety in sensory perception, image, conclusion, the past. All that is tradition. In tradition there is safety: In the past there is complete security.

斯：没有什么可打扰。 克：任何新事物都是令人不安的，因为脑细胞需要秩序，它们在过去找到了秩序。 阿：但是又回到你的问题，那有什么问题？ 克：没有错。 我正在探究感官的本质，视觉的感知，大脑的运作，思想的机制以及头脑如何运作； 在感官的知觉、印象、结论、这个过去中，是安全的。 这一切都是传统。传统里有安全：这个过去里，有完全的安全。

SW: Security implies struggle. K: Security implies the sense of not wanting to be disturbed. I do not know if you have noticed it: the brain needs order. It may establish order in disorder which is neurosis. It needs order and therefore it will find order in disorder and become neurotic. See this? The brain demands order because in order there is security. SW: That is perfectly clear.

斯：安全意味着挣扎。 克：安全意味着不想被打扰的感觉。我不知道你有没有注意到它： 大脑需要秩序。 它可以在神经症的紊乱中建立秩序。 它需要秩序，因此它会在失序中找到秩序，并变得神经质。看到这点了吗？ 大脑需要秩序，因为在秩序中有安全。 斯：那是非常清楚的。

K: In tradition there is order. In continuity there is order. The brain seeking order creates security, a harbour where it feels safe. And K comes along with revolutionary ideas and tells you, this is not order, and so there is conflict between you and him. You reduce the new in terms of the old and there find safety, security. Why does the mind do this? The Russian revolution and the French revolution upset the whole established structure but soon the brain created order out of disorder, and there was an end to revolution. A: We have discovered something - that the moment I see something new which creates a disturbance, perception is the instrument by which I convert the new into the old.

克：在传统中有秩序。在延续性中有秩序。 寻求秩序的大脑创造出安全，一个让人感觉到安全的港湾。 K带来了革命性的想法，并告诉你，这不是秩序，所以你和他之间存在着冲突。 你用旧的来缩减新的，在那里找安全、保障。这颗头脑为什么要这样做？ 俄国革命和法国大革命颠覆了整个既定的结构 但是，很快，大脑就从失序中创造出秩序，革命就此结束。 阿：我们发现了某个东西 —— 当我看到这个新东西那一刻，它造成一种干扰， 感知就是我把新东西转化为旧东西的工具。

K: That is the biological process of the brain. It is a biological necessity for the brain, because in that it finds the most efficient way of working. A: Will you examine the inbuilt incapacity of the brain to see and distort the new? K: Wait, Sir. Unless I see that the brain cells themselves understand the danger of the past, the danger of seeking security in the past, the brain cells will not see anything new. If they see something new they will translate it in terms of the old. Therefore, the brain cells themselves have to see the immense danger of what they consider security in the past. A: Which means a total change.

克：那就是这颗大脑的生理过程。 它是大脑的生理需要，因为它找到了最有效的工作方式。 阿：你会检查大脑的内在缺陷吗，看它是如何扭曲新事物的吗？ 克：等等，先生。除非我看到： 脑细胞亲自理解这个过去的危险，在这个过去中寻求安全是危险的， 否则，脑细胞们不会去看任何新东西。 如果它们看到新东西，他们会用旧的东西来翻译它。 因此，脑细胞本身必须去看，它们所认为的安全，也就是这个过去，有巨大的危险。 阿：那意味着彻底的改变。

SW: There is a modified continuity in this process. This creates a feeling of progress. K: The moment you have knowledge it can be continued, modified, but it is still within the field of knowledge; the whole thing is there. What is wrong with this? SW: All that you say is fact. However, there is another factor. This is not the whole thing: There is something radically wanting in this. K: What is wanting in this? Go step by step. This is the structure. What is the something which is not quite right? Find out. I will show it to you.

斯：在这个过程中，有一个修改的延续性。这创造出一种进步的感觉。 克：当你拥有知识的那一刻，它可以被延续，可以被修改，但它仍然在知识领域之内； 整个东西都在那里。这有什么问题？ 斯：你说的都是事实。但是，还有另一个因素。 这不是整个东西：这里面有某个根本性的东西。 克：这里面缺什么？一步一步来。 这个结构。有什么不太对劲的地方？找出来。我将展示给你看。

SW: Yes, of course. K: Do not agree. "See." Can the brain cells seek security in knowledge, and know that in knowledge there is danger of division? A: Knowing that knowledge is necessary here.... K: And also knowledge is danger because it divides. SW: To see both at the same time is difficult. K: "See" it at the same time. Otherwise you will not "see" it.

斯：是的，当然了。 克：不要同意。“看。” 脑细胞们能在知识中寻求安全，并认识到在知识中存在分裂的危险吗？ 阿：认识到知识是必要的…… 克：同时，知识也是危险的，因为它在分裂。 斯：同时看到这两方面是很困难的。 克：在同一时刻“看”它。否则你会“看”不到它。

SW: There are two types of image-making. In technological knowledge also there is a recording, and that is also a form of image-making. A: I think we were using the word "image-making" where there is some emotional content. In the other it is not so. As an escape out of this, the projection of freedom comes. K: It knows in this there is no freedom and therefore it has to invent a freedom outside the prison. When you see the whole structure of knowledge, then it is all understood.

斯：有两种类型的图像制作方式。 在技术知识中也有一种录制，那也是一种图像制作方式。 阿：我认为我们使用“图像制作”这个词，是在某些包含了情感内容的地方。其它地方则并非如此。 为了摆脱这种情况，就产生了一种逃避，投射出自由的影子。 克：它知道这里面没有自由，因此它必须在监狱之外发明一种自由。 当你看到知识的整个结构时，它就被理解了。

A: There is a question which I want to ask: Is it that the mind has a capacity to verbalize something which it does not experience, but would like to experience? K: We have not yet finished, Sir. Psychological, technological, biological knowledge is included in the word "knowledge". I see, the mind sees, knowledge is divisive and unifying. In this is the bondage of time. But, the brain cells also know that in this there is no freedom, and they want freedom. In freedom may be the super-security. And that is why man has from immemorial times talked of freedom. But as freedom is not within the prison, man has always thought of freedom outside. And we are saying freedom is here, not outside, right?

阿：我想问一个问题： 克：先生，我们还没有说完，心理的、技术的、生物的知识都包含在“知识”一词中。 我看到，这颗头脑看到，知识在分裂和统筹。这就是时间的束缚。 但是，脑细胞们也知道，这里面没有自由，它们想要自由。 在自由中，可能有超级安全。这就是为什么人类从远古时代开始，就在谈论自由。 但是，由于自由不在监狱里，人总是在想外面的自由。 我们说，自由在这里，而不是外面，对吧？

SW: Desire for freedom, is it a biological characteristic? The desire for super-security is it also not biological? K: So, is there freedom in all the things which thought has built including the thought of freedom? Look at it. In this it cannot find freedom. So it says because thought has constructed this freedom within the prison, therefore freedom must be outside. SW: In other words is there freedom in knowledge? K: Is there freedom in the past? Knowledge is the past. Knowledge is the accumulation of a million years of experience. Does experience give freedom? Obviously not. So is there such a thing as freedom? SW: I do not know. I see freedom is not outside. It is a projection. And yet there is no freedom inside.

斯：对自由的渴望，是一种生理特性吗？对超级安全的渴望也不是生理上的吗？ 克：因此，思想所建立的这一切，包括自由的思想，这里面有自由吗？ 看着它。在这里，它无法找到自由。 所以，它说，因为思想在监狱里构建了这种自由，所以自由必定在监狱之外。 斯：换句话说，知识中有自由吗？ 克：这个过去有自由吗？知识是这个过去。知识是一百万年体验的积累。 体验能给人自由吗？显然不能。那么，有自由这样的东西吗？ 斯：我不知道。我看到自由不在外面。它是一个投影。然而，里面没有自由。

K: I do not know. I have always thought of freedom outside. All the religious books, practices, have thought of it over there. There may be absolute freedom here. I have got it: I know, the brain knows, thought is aware that it has created this prison. All that thought knows is that demanding security, it has created the prison. And it must have security, otherwise it cannot function. So thought enquires where is freedom? It seeks it somewhere where it is perceivable, where it is not projected, not formulated, not invented, where it is not the projection of the past which is still knowledge. Freedom must be somewhere.

克：我不知道。我一直关心外面的自由。 所有的宗教书籍，训练，都认为它在那里。这里可能有绝对的自由。 我抓住了它：我知道，这颗大脑知道，思想觉察到它创造出这座监狱。 所有的想法都知道，是这种对要求的安全，创造出这座监狱。 它必须要有安全，否则它将无法运行。 所以，思想询问到：自由在哪里？ 它在某个可感知到的地方寻找， 那里不是被投射出的，不是被公式化的，不是被发明的， 那里不是这个过去的投射 —— 也就是知识。 自由必定在某个地方。

A: Is it an act of perception? K: This is an act of perception. Visually I perceive you. Visual perception has created all this. It is this knowledge that has created all this. Knowledge and non-knowledge are still projections of thought. R: What is non-knowledge? A: We say all knowledge, the past is the present and we are thinking of the unknown as freedom.

阿：它是一个感知行动吗? 克：这是一种感知行动。在视觉上，我感知到你。视觉感知创造了这一切。 正是这种知识创造了这一切。知识和非知识，仍然是思想的投射。 拉：什么是非知识? 阿：我们说所有的知识，这个过去就是这个现在，我们把未知当成自由。

K: Therefore the unknown is the known. It is very simple now. This is the structure of the brain cells with their memories which are responsible for thought. This is the structure of thought. Thought says knowledge is necessary. Thought says, because you have questioned it, there is no freedom either. So what is freedom? Is there such a thing at all? A: We only see that whatever thought produces is not freedom. K: So, what does it say? Is there security in thought? Thought has created all this. Is there security in the very thinking itself? SW: It is thinking which has done all this.

克：所以，未知就是已知。现在，它很简单。 这是脑细胞们的结构及其它们的记忆，而记忆对思想负责。 这就是思想的结构。 思想说知识是必要的。思想说，因为你质疑了它，所以还是没有自由。 那么，什么是自由呢？到底有没有这样的东西？ 阿：我们只看到思想产生的东西不是自由。 克：那么，它说什么？思想中有安全吗？ 思想创造出这一切。思想在思考它自身时，有安全吗？ 斯：这一切都是思想做的。

23 STABILITY AND KNOWLEDGE 稳定性与知识

SW: I perceive a tree. Then an idea arises from memory which says this is a mango tree. This idea comes in the way of my looking at the tree and so I am not able to see the fact of the tree. This screen of ideas interferes with the present and there is no real perception. K: Are you asking, Sir, what is relationship? What is the relationship between the observed and the observer? What does it mean to be related, to be in contact with? Relationship means to be related: the relationship between two people; the relationship between the concept, the ideal and the conceiver, the maker of the ideal; the relationship of the one with the many; the relationship between one thought and another thought and with the interval between thoughts; the relationship between the present and the future as death; the relationship between the world and myself; all that is involved in relationship, is it not? I may renounce the world, I may live in a cave but I am still related to my whole background and the background is "me". I think relationship implies all that. (Pause) A: We always think of relationship in isolation, not as a part of the whole. Relationship is always with something.

斯：我感知一棵树。然后，在记忆中，产生了一个观念，这个观念说‘这是一棵芒果树。’ 这个观念妨碍了我看这棵树，所以，我无法看到树的真实。 这种由各种观念组成的屏幕干扰着当下，就没有了真正的感知。 克：先生，你是问，什么是关系吗？被观察者和观察者之间是什么关系？ 联系、接触意味着什么？ 关系意味着相互联系：两个人之间的关系； 概念与构思者、理想与理想的制造者之间的关系； 一与多的关系； 一个思想与另一个思想以及思想之间的间隙的关系； 这个现在与这个被当作死亡的未来的关系； 这个世界与我之间的关系； 那一切都陷进了关系之中，不是吗？ 我可能放弃世界，我可能住在山洞里，但我仍然与我的整个背景关联，这个背景就是“我”。 我认为，关系意味着这一切。（暂停） 阿：我们总是孤立地考虑关系，而不是作为整体的一部分。 关系总是与某个东西相关。

K: Can there be a relationship if there is a centre and an observer to which you are related? When the centre feels it is related to something, is that relationship? A: It has been pointed out that it is only because I feel related to something that the "I" as the centre is strengthened. The centre assumes a cohesive character only through its fragmented parts. K: How do we discuss this? Let us see. Where do we begin with this vast subject? A: Would you start with belief, because belief is the basis of all relationship?

克：如果有一个中心，一个与你相关的观察者，能有关系吗？ 而当这个中心感到它与某个东西相关的那一刻，那是关系吗？ 阿：这已经被指出，因为我感觉到与某个东西相关，所以只能加强那个被称之为中心的‘我’。 这个中心假设自己具有一种凝聚的品质，而这种假设只能通过它那些破碎的部分才能成立。 克：我们如何讨论这个问题？让我们看，对于这个宏大的主题，我们从那里开始？ 阿：你会从信仰开始吗，因为信仰是所有关系的基础。

K: What does relationship mean to you? A: To be in communication. K: What does relationship mean to you? When you look at me, at her, in what way are you related to me, to her? Are you related? A: I think so. K: Let us examine it. I look at you, you look at me. What is our relationship? Is there relationship at all except a verbal relationship? R: There is a feeling of relationship when there is a movement towards something.

克：关系对你来说意味着什么？ 阿：交流。 克：关系对你来说意味着什么？当你看我，看她，你与我，你与她有什么关系？你被关联了吗？ 阿：我想是的。 克：让我们来检查它。我看你，你看我。 我们的关系是什么？除了言语上的关系，到底还有没有关系？ 拉：当朝着某个东西前进时，就会有一种关系的感觉。

K: If both of us are moving towards an ideal, going together to a point, is that relationship? Can there be relationship when each one is in isolation? SW: The first question you asked was, can there be relationship if there is a centre? K: If I have built a wall around myself, consciously or unconsciously, a wall of resistance, of self-protection in order to be secure, in order not to get hurt, to be safe, is there any relationship at all? Do look at this. I am afraid, because I have been hurt physically as well as psychologically and my whole being is wounded and I do not want to be hurt any more. I build a wall around myself, of resistance, of defence, of "I know, you do not know", to feel completely safe from being further hurt. In that what is my relationship to you? Is there any relationship?

克：如果我们俩都在朝着一个理想前进，一起走向一个点，那是关系吗？ 当每个人都处于孤立的状态之中，能有关系吗？ 斯：你问的第一个问题是，如果有一个中心，能有关系吗？ 克：如果我为了保险，为了不受伤，为了安全， 在自己的周围筑起一堵墙，有意地或无意地筑起一堵墙，一堵抵抗的墙，一堵自我保护的墙， 那么，还有什么关系？ 请看这个。我害怕，因为我在身体和心理上都受到了伤害 我整个人都受伤了，我不想再受伤了。 我在自己的周围筑起高墙，这堵墙是抵抗之墙，防御之墙，是‘我知道，而你不知道’的知识之墙， 这堵墙，让人感到完全的安全，不会受到进一步的伤害。 我和你是什么关系？还有任何的关系吗？

A: What do you mean by relationship in our daily normal life? K: Why do you ask me? Look at yourself. In your normal, daily life, what takes place? There is the going to the office, being bullied, insulted by someone at the top. That is your relationship. With your wounded pride you come home and your wife says you are this, you are that, and you further withdraw and you sleep with her - have you any relationship?

阿：在我们日常生活中，你所说的关系是什么意思？ 克：你为什么问我？看看你自己。在你的日常生活中发生着什么？ 去办公室，被欺负，被上司侮辱。那是你们的关系。 带着你受伤的自尊心，你回到家，你的妻子对你说这说那，你进一步地退缩，你和她睡觉 —— 你有任何的关系吗？

A: That means when the centre is there, there is no relationship at all. R: But there is ordinary goodwill. K: But is there goodwill if I have got this wall of resistance, this enclosure within which I live? What is my goodwill towards you? I am polite. I keep a distance. I am always inside the wall. SW: Even in the life of an ordinary man, there are some relationships which are not always from behind a wall.

阿：这意味着当中心在那里时，根本没有关系。 拉：但是有普通的善意。 克：但是，如果我有这堵抵抗之墙，我生活的这个围墙里，还有善意吗？ 我对你有什么好感？我很客气。我保持距离。我总是在墙内。 斯：即使在一个普通人的生活中，也有一些关系并不总是来自墙后。

A: You say there is no relationship. The fact is I am related in this way because of a feeling of commitment. There is commitment to one another. I am not acting in self-interest, but only in the interest of the other. K: You say I am acting in the interest of the other; is that so? I follow the leader who hopes to revolutionize society, inwardly and outwardly, and I follow him and obey. I commit myself to a course of action, which both the leader and I have agreed as necessary. Is there a relationship between me and the leader who is working for the same end? What does relationship mean: to be in contact with, to be in close proximity?

阿：你说不存在关系。事实上，我以这种方式建立关系是因为一种承诺。 彼此承诺。我的行为不是为了自身利益，而只是为了他人的利益。 克：你说，我的行为是为了他人的利益；是那样的吗？ 我全身心地追随这位希望革新社会的领袖，我追随他，服从他。 我致力于一个行动方针，这位领袖和我都觉得这样做是必要的。 我与这位为同一目的而工作的领袖之间有关系吗？ 关系是什么意思：接触，靠近吗？

A: The crux of this relationship is utility. K: Our relationship is based on a utilitarian relationship. R: I see if you apply this test, that there is no relationship. K: You are not answering the deeper issue, which is, as long as there is the observer who is committing himself to a course of action, is there a relationship between you and me?

阿：这种关系的关键是实用性。 克：我们的关系是建立在实用的关系之上的。 拉：我看到，如果你这样去测试，那么就不存在关系。 克：你没有回答更深层的问题，那就是： 只要有观察者在致力于一个行动方针，你我之间有关系吗？

SW: Images in one form or another divide. K: Go slow. There is that tree. I look at it. The physical distance between me and that tree may be a few yards, but the actual distance etween me and that tree is vast. Though I look at it, my eyes, mind, heart, everything is very very far away. That distance is incalculable. In the same way, I look at my wife and I am very far away. In the same way I am very far away in co-operative action. SW: Is the word, the image, interfering in all this?

斯：一个印象或另一个在割裂。 克：慢慢来。树在那里。我看着它。 我和那棵树之间的物理距离可能只有几码，但实际上我和那棵树之间的距离是巨大的。 虽然我看着它，但我的眼睛，头脑，心灵，一切都非常非常遥远。那是一段无法估量的距离。 同样，我看着我的妻子，我离得很远。 同样，我在合作行动中，也离得很远。 斯：是文字、印象干扰了这一切？

K: We are going to find out. There is the word, the image, and the goal towards which both are co-operating. What is dividing is the goal. What is dividing you and me is the goal. SW: But there is no goal with regard to the tree. K: Just stay there. Do not jump. We think working for a goal together has brought us in contact. In fact the goal is separating us. A: No. How can you say the goal is dividing us?

克：我们将会找到答案。 有文字、印象和两者合作以达成的目标。 分裂因子就是这个目标。这个目标分裂出你和我。 斯：但是这棵树没有目标。 克：呆在那里。不要跳。 我们认为，为一个目标而努力使我们有了联系。事实上，这个目标将我们分开。 阿：不是的。你怎么能说这个目标在分裂我们？

K: I do not know. I may be wrong. We are investigating. You and I have a goal; we work together. SW: Is it a question of becoming? K: Do look at it. I say goals divide people. A goal does not bring people together. Your goal and my goal are separate; they have divided us. The goal itself has divided us, not co-operation, which is irrelevant to the goal. SW: I see one thing, where two people come together for the joy of something, that is different. K: No. When two people come together out of affection, love, joy, then what is action which is not divisible, which does not divide? I love you, you love me and what is action out of that love? Not a goal? What is action between two people who love?

克：我不知道。我可能错了。我们正在调查。你和我有一个目标；我们一起工作。 斯：这是一个成为的问题吗？ 克：你看着它。我说目标会分裂人。目标不会将人们聚集在一起。 你的目标和我的目标是分开的；他们分裂了我们。 目标本身使我们分裂，而不是合作，合作与目标无关。 斯：我看到一件事，两个人为了某件事的欢乐而走到一起，这是不同的。 克：不同。当两个人出于感情、爱、欢乐而走到一起时， 那么，什么是不可分割的、没有分裂的行动？ 我爱你，你爱我，从这种爱之中，流露出的行动是什么？ 没有一个目标吗？两个相爱的人之间的行动是什么？

A: When two people come together in affection it may produce a result but they are not coming together for the result. Therefore, in any such coming together there is no division. Whereas if two people come together with a goal, that is a divisive factor. K: We have discovered something. Do go into it. I see that when people come together with affection when there is no goal, no purpose, no utopia - then there is no division. Then all status disappears and there is only function - then I will sweep the garden because it is part of the needs of the place.

阿：当两个人在感情中走到一起时，可能会产生一个结果，但他们不是为了结果而走到一起的。 因此，在任何这样的相聚中，没有分裂。 然而，如果两个人为了一个目标走到一起，那就是一个分裂因素。 克：我们发现了某个东西。一定要进去。 我看到，当人们在没有目标、没有目的、没有乌托邦的情况下，带着感情走到一起时 —— 那么，就没有划分。 那么，所有身份都消失了，只有职责 —— 然后，我会扫花园，因为它是这个地方所需求的一部分。

SW: Isolating myself. K: No, Sir, look at what is happening. A: The fact is I am not related. I struggle to build a relationship, to bridge the gap between thought and thought. I have got to build this bridge between thought and thought because unless I do this, I feel absolutely isolated. I feel lost. K: That is only a part of it. Go into it a little more. What is happening to my mind, when my mind is struggling to commit itself to everything - to family, to nature, to beauty, to working together?

斯：孤立我自己。 克：不，先生，看看在发生什么。 阿：事实上我并没有被关联。我努力建立一种关系，弥合思想和思想之间的鸿沟。 我必须在思想和思想之间架起这座桥梁，因为除非我这样做，否则我会感到绝对孤立。我感到迷茫。 克：这只是其中的一部分。再进去一点。 我的头脑发在生什么，当我的头脑挣扎着致力于 —— 家庭、大自然、美，致力于这一切的时候？

SW: There is a lot of conflict there, Sir. K: I realize as "A" has pointed out, I am not related to anything. I have come to that point. Then, not being related to anything, I want to be related, therefore, I commit myself, therefore, I involve myself in action and yet the isolation goes on. So, what is going on in my mind? SW: Death. R: There is a constant struggle.

斯：先生，那里有很多冲突。 克：我意识到正如“阿”所指出的，我与任何事物都没有关系。我已经来到了那一步。 然后，没有与任何事物相连，我想被关联，因此，我奉献我自己， 因此，我把我自己投身于行动之中，但孤立仍在继续。 那么，我的头脑在想什么？ 斯：死亡。 拉：那是一场持续的挣扎。

K: You see you have not moved away from that point. I am not related and then I try to be related. I try to identify myself through action. Now what is taking place in the mind? (Pause.) I am moving into peripheral commitment. What happens to my mind when it moves on the outside all the time? SW: The mind gets strengthened.

克：你看，你还没有离开那一步。我没有关联，然后我试图被关联。 我试图通过行动来认同我自己。现在，我的头脑在发生什么？（暂停。） 我正在投身于外部。当我的头脑一直往外移动时，它在发生什么？ 斯：头脑得到了增强。

A: I am escaping from myself. K: Which means what? Do look at it. Nature becomes very important, the family becomes very important, the action to which I have completely given myself over becomes all important and what has happened to me? It has completely externalized everything. Now, what has happened to the mind that has externalized the whole movement of relationship? What happens to your mind when it is occupied with the external, with the periphery?

阿：我在逃避我自己。 克：这意味着什么？一定要看它。 大自然变得非常重要，家庭变得非常重要， 我把我自己完全奉献出去的行动，变得非常的重要，我发生了什么？ 它彻底外化了一切。 现在，被整个关系外化的头脑，在发生什么？ 当你的头脑被外在的、外围的事物占据时，发生了什么？

SW: It has lost all sensitivity. K: Do look at what happens inside you. In reaction to the externalization, you withdraw, you become a monk. What happens to the mind when it withdraws? SW: I am incapable of spontaneity.

斯：它已经失去了所有的敏感性。 克：看看你内心发生了什么。作为对外化的反应，你退缩了，你变成了一个和尚。 当头脑退缩时，它在发生什么？ 斯：我丧失了自发性。

K: You will find the answer. Look in there. (Pause) What happens to your mind when you withdraw or when you are committed? What happens when you withdraw into your own conclusions? It is another world. Instead of one world, you create another world which you call the inner world.

克：你会找到答案的。往里看。（暂停） 当你退缩或奉献时，你的头脑在发生什么？ 当你退缩到自己的结论中时，在发生什么？ 它是另一个世界。为代替这个世界，你创造出另一个被你称之为內心世界的世界。

SW: The mind is not free. K: Is that what is happening to your mind? A: It is always committed. K: The mind is committed to the outward phenomena and the reaction to that is the inward commitment, the withdrawal. The inward commitment is the reaction of your own world of imagination, of mystical experience. What happens to the mind that is doing this?

斯：头脑不是自由的。 克：你的头脑是那个样子的吗？ 阿：它始终在奉献。 克：头脑致力於外在的现象，对它做出的反應是內在的奉献，退缩。 内在的奉献是你的反应 —— 你自己想象出来的、有着神秘体验的世界。 正在这样做的头脑，在发生什么？

R: It is occupied. K: Is that what is going on? She says it is occupied, is that all? Put your guts into it. The mind externalizes its activity and then withdraws and acts. What happens to the quality of the mind, to the brain which is withdrawing and externalizing?

拉：它被占据了。 克：是什么情况？她说它被占据了，仅此而已吗？把你的胆量放进去。 头脑外化了它的活动，然后退缩并产生反应。 这颗头脑的品质，正在退缩和外化的大脑，在发生什么情况？

A: It does not face the fact. R: There is a great fear. It becomes dull. SW: It is not free to look. K: Have you watched your mind when it is externalizing all action outwardly and all action inwardly? It is the same movement - the outer and inner. It is like a tide going out and coming in. It is so simple is it not? What happens to the mind going out, coming in? A: It becomes mechanical.

阿：它没有面对这个事实。 拉：有一种很大的恐惧。它变得迟钝。 斯：它没有自由的看。 克：你有没有观察你的头脑，当它把所有行动都外化到外面，把所有行动都外化到里面的时候？ 它是相同的运动 —— 外面和里面。这就像潮水出去又进来。 它是如此的简单，不是吗？头脑出去了，又进来了，在发生什么？ 阿：它变得机械化。

24 THE BRAIN-CELLS AND MUTATION 脑细胞与突变

K: I wonder if that so-called horizontal movement was not a very conditioned and superficial movement? The young man, repeated what he was taught and at a given moment, there was a break. You follow? P: No, I do not. What is meant by a superficial movement of conditioning? K: That is, the boy accepted, repeated, walked along the path laid down traditionally and theosophically. He accepted it. P: All of us do just that.

克：我在想，所谓的水平运动是不是一种非常受限的、肤浅的运动？ 这位年轻人重复着他被教导的内容，在那一段时刻，有一个突破。你跟上了吗？ 普：不，我没有。受限的肤浅运动是什么意思？ 克：也就是说，这个男孩接受，重复，沿着传统和神智学铺设的道路行走。他接受了。 普：我们所有人都那么做。

K: All of us do it in varying degrees. The question is why did he pursue that journey? P: No. The question is what was it that triggered that which suddenly made him say that there is no fixed point? K: Look at it as if "K" is not here. He is dead. How would you answer this question. I am here and so may answer you or may not, but if I were not here how would you answer it? P: One way of doing so would be to examine what you have said, along with the influences which have operated on you, at the time, to see at what point the break took place and what were the crises, inward or outward, that have been recorded, to produce that break.

克：我们所有人都在不同程度上那么做。问题是他为什么要追求那段旅程？ 普：不是。问题是，是什么促使他突然说出‘不存在固定的点’那种话？ 克：看它，就好像“K”不在这里。他死了。你会如何回答这个问题。 我在这里，所以，可以回答你，也可以不回答，但如果我不在这里，你会怎么回答？ 普：一种方法是检查你所说的话，以及对你的影响， 当时，看看突破点是发生在什么时候， 以及产生这种突破、被记录下的内在或外在的危机是什么。

K: But suppose you knew nothing of all that, and yet you had to answer the question seriously now, what would you do? What you say would take time, investigation. How would you find out now? How would you find out if you were faced with this problem that there was a young man who followed the traditional path, the idea of a fixed point, the fixed goal, using time, evolution, and at a given point he broke away. How would you unravel it? D: It is like this. We boil water under heat. Up to a hundred degrees it is uniform and then there is complete transformation. K: But to come to that point takes time.

克：但是假设你对这一切一无所知，但你现在必须认真回答这个问题，你会怎么做？ 你说的那种方式，需要用时间去调查。现在，你怎么去发现？ 如果你面临这个问题，你怎么去发现一个年轻人遵循传统道路， 一个固定点、一个固定的目标的理念，利用时间，进化，在给定的一个点上，他突破了。 你会如何揭示它？ 德：就好像是这样。我们在下面加热烧开水。 在100摄氏度以下，它是均匀的，接着，有完全的转变。 克：但是，要走到这一步需要时间。

P: If I did not have the historical background, the only way of investigation would be to see whether this process is possible within my consciousness. D: I was driving at something else. The traditionalist would say there is a process which, like the boiling point of water, leads to transformation. Tradition only helps to take you up to the boiling point. You can negate tradition but the necessity of tradition up to a point is there. P: If the historical data were not available of "K" being put through various sadhanas and one were just given the fact of this phenomenon of "K", the only way to investigate would be through self-knowing.

普：如果我没有历史背景， 唯一的调查方法是看看这个过程在我的意识中是否可能。 德：我正在开往别的地方。传统主义者会说，有一个过程，就像水的沸点一样，导致转变。 传统只会帮助你达到沸点。你可以否定传统，但在某种程度上，传统的必要性是存在的。 普：如果没有“K”经历各种修行的历史资料 而一个人刚刚知道了“K”这种现象的事实，唯一的调查方法就是通过自我认识。

D: How would you explain the phenomenon? F: You seem to be creating a relationship between the former state of development and the present state of being. Is there a relationship between the two? You say one leads to another, one before another and you are arranging it in time. P: The phenomenon of "K" is that he was born of Brahmin parents...the whole history we know. I look at his background, I notice that up to a point K talked of time, of salvation as a final point and suddenly the whole thing was negated. K: "F" says why do you relate this movement, the horizontal movement to the vertical movement? There is no relationship between the two. Therefore keep the two separate.

德：你如何解释这种现象？ 莫：你好像是在以前的发展状态和现在的状态之间，创建一种关系。 两者之间有关系吗？ 你说一个导致另一个，一个先于另一个，你在时间上排列它。 普：“K”的现象是他是由婆罗门的父母所生…… 我们知道这整个历史。 我看他的背景，我注意到K谈到了时间，救赎是最后一点，突然间整个事件都被否定了。 克：“莫”说，你为什么把这种运动，这种水平和垂直的运动联系起来？ 两者之间没有关系。因此，保持两者的分离。

P: When I look at "K", I look at the whole background. K: Look but do not relate the two. P: The question is if what you say has to be meaningful, it is essential to understand this process of time and the freedom from it. I therefore ask the question: What triggered it in you? If you tell me it happened, I will say all right. If it happens, it happens, if it does not, it does not. I will continue my life. F: There is no trigger.

普：当我看“K”时，我看到整个背景。 克：看，但不要把两者联系起来。 普：问题是，如果你说的话有意义，那么，必须理解这种时间的过程和对它的这种解放。 因此，我问这个问题：是什么触发了你？如果你告诉我它只是发生了，我会说好吧。 如果它发生了，它就发生了，如果它没有，它就不发生。我会继续我的生命。 莫：不存在触发器。

P: A certain brain made certain noises and suddenly started making other noises and "K" has been saying the brain cells themselves are time. Do not let us get away from that. So the brain cells of "K" which were time, underwent some kind of mutation. K: I will show you very simply. The cultivation of a brain, of any brain takes time. Experience, knowledge and memories are stored up in the brain cells. This is a biological fact. The brain is the result of time. Now this man at a point breaks the movement. A totally different movement takes place, which means, the brain cells themselves undergo mutation. And "P" says you must answer and say what took place; otherwise what happened was merely chance.

普：某个大脑发出某些声音，突然间，开始发出其他声音，“K”一直在说脑细胞本身就是时间。 让我们不要逃避这一点。因此，“K”的脑细胞是时间，经历了某种突变。 克：我会简单地展示给你。一颗大脑的培养，任何大脑的培养都需要时间。 体验、知识和记忆储存在脑细胞中。这是一个生物学事实。 大脑是时间的结果。现在这个人在一个点上突破了这个运动。 发生了完全不同的运动，这意味着脑细胞本身经历了突变。 “普”说，你必须回答并说出发生了什么；否则发生的事情只是偶然的。

D: If it is chance, then we will accept it. B: An answer by Krishnaji may help us to bring about a mutation in ourselves. S: Two explanations are possible. One is the theosophical explanation that the Masters were looking after "K" and so he was untouched by experience. Another explanation is that of reincarnation. D: When "K" says that the boy K was not touched by experience, how does he know? The boy wrote The Path, The Search; I will not go into the end product where he was not touched.

德：如果它是偶然，那么我们会接受。 芭：克里希那吉的回答可能会帮助我们带来我们自己的突变。 苏：有两种解释。一个是神智学的解释，即大师们在照顾“K” 所以他没有受到体验的影响。另一种解释是轮回。 德：当“K”说那个叫K的男孩没有被体验所触碰时，他是怎么知道的？男孩写了《道路》，《寻找》; 我不会进入他没有被触碰的最终产品。

K: Just leave that for the moment. How did it happen? What is your answer? Given these facts, faced with them, how do you answer this? B: Sir, how can we answer the change in you which took place in 1927? Mrs Besant has said that the two consciousnesses would not be merged. We do not know. You alone can say what took place. We have no personal knowledge nor the capacity to know.

克：暂时不说那。它是怎么发生的？ 你的答案是什么？鉴于这些事实，面对这些事实，你如何回答这个问题？ 芭：先生，我们该如何回答1927年发生在您身上的变化？ 贝赞特夫人说过，这两种意识不会合并。我们不得而知。 只有你才能说发生了什么。我们没有个人的知识，也没有能力去知道。

K: Let us investigate it together. F: I will put it this way. The man woke up into another state. If you posit a causal link between the past and the present then what you say is so. One does no lead to another. There is no connection. P: I say the brain cells themselves cannot comprehend time which is not a horizontal movement. Unless this is understood, we cannot explore at very great depth into the problem of time.

克：让我们一起调查。 莫：我会这样说。这个人醒来时进入了另一种状态。 如果你假设过去和现在之间存在因果关系，那么你所说的就是这样。 一个不会导致另一个。没有连接。 普：我说脑细胞本身无法理解时间，那种不是水平运动的时间。 除非理解这一点，否则我们无法非常深入地探讨时间问题。

K: Let us explore. First of all, is there time involved at all? If you ask me how did this happen to me, I really do not know. You understand? But I think we can investigate it together. If you ask me "did you go for a walk last night?" I would say yes. Whereas if you ask me "how did this happen to you?", I really could not say how. What is wrong with that?

克：让我们来探索。首先，其中涉及到时间吗？ 如果你问我这是怎么发生在我身上的，我真的不知道。 你理解吗？但我认为我们可以一起调查。如果你问我“你昨晚去散步了吗？”我会说“是的。” 然而，如果你问我“这是怎么发生在你身上的？”，我真的说不出是怎么回事。那有什么问题吗？

P: In itself, it is all right. But we are trying to comprehend the essential nature of this time movement and non-time movement - leave yourself out of it, it is important that we investigate into the nature of time, not at the level of chronological time and psychological time for we have gone into that sufficiently. K: Begin with perception; is seeing involved with time? P: What happens to the brain cells in the process of seeing? K: The brain cells in the process of seeing, either respond in old terms or are held back in abeyance; they hold themselves back in abeyance without the past.

普：就其本身而言，它没有问题。 但是，我们试图理解这个时间运动和非时间运动的本质 —— 把你自己排除在外， 重要的是，我们要调查时间的本质， 不是在时间顺序和心理时间的层面上，因为我们已经充分地进入了这个问题。 克：从感知开始； 看与时间有关吗？ 普：在看的过程中，脑细胞会发生什么变化？ 克：脑细胞们在看的过程中，要么用旧的术语做出反应，要么被搁浅； 在搁浅的时候，它们使自己回退，没有携带着这个过去。

P: You say that in perception which is instantaneous, the brain cells hold back. If they are not operating, do they exist? K: They do, as the storehouse of knowledge which is the past. The brain cells, we all agree, are the storehouse of memories, experience, knowledge which is the past. That is the old brain. In perception, the old brain does not respond. P: Where is it? K: It is there. It is not dead. It is there because I have to use knowledge to think. The brain cells have to be used.

普：你说，在瞬时的感知中，脑细胞们会回退。 如果它们不动作，它们是否存在？ 克：它们确实存在，作为过去的知识宝库。 我们都同意，脑细胞是仓库，装着记忆、体验和知识，也就是过去。 那是一颗旧大脑。在感知中，旧大脑没有反应。 普：它在哪里？ 克：就在那里。它没有死。它之所以存在，是因为我必须用知识来思考。必须使用脑细胞。

P: What operates then? If the brain cells are not operating, what is operating? K: A totally new brain. The old brain is full of images, memories, responses and we are used to responding with the old brain. You say(see) perception is not related to the old brain. Perception is the interval between the old response and the response which is new, which the old does not yet know. In that interval there is no time.

普：那么，是什么在运作？如果脑细胞没有在运作，那么在运作的是什么？ 克：一个全新的大脑。旧大腦充滿了印象、記憶、反應，我們習慣於用舊大腦做出回應。 你看，感知与旧大脑无关。 感知是旧反应和新的回应之间的间隔，这个旧的还不知道。 在那个间隔内，没有时间。

F: There is a contradiction. In psychology, sensation is itself direct. In the interval between sensation and perception, memories jump in and distort. So sensation is timeless but the interval is time. K: Let us get this clear. You ask me a question. The old brain responds according to its information, according to knowledge; if the old brain has no knowledge, no information, there is an interval between the question and answer.

莫：这里有一个矛盾。在心理学中，感觉本身就是直接的。 在感受和感知之间的间隔中，记忆跳入并扭曲。 所以，感受是非时间的，但这个间隔就是时间。 克：让我们把这个说清楚。你问我一个问题。 根据知识，旧大脑根据其信息做出反应； 如果舊大腦没有知識，没有信息，問題和答案之間就會有一個间隔。

F: The interval is due to the sluggishness of the brain cells. K: No. F: Memory traces continue in the brain. K: You ask me what the distance is between here and Delhi. I would not know. No amount of my thinking with the brain cells would help. The fact is not registered. If it were, I would then think about it and answer. But there is no knowing. In that no-knowing, there is a state in which time does not exist.

莫：间隔是由于脑细胞的迟钝。 克：不是。 莫：记忆的痕迹被保留在大脑中。 克：你问我这里和德里的距离是多少。我不知道。 我的脑细胞再怎么思考，都无济于事。这个事实并没有被记录。 如果有记录，我会思考并答复。但是没有。 在这种不认识的情况下，有一种时间不存在的状态。

D: No amount of waiting will make me know. K: The moment I know, the knowing is time. P: You have said two or three things; you have talked of a new mind. The question is what has happened to the old brain? K: The old is quiet. P: Has it existence? K: Of course it has; otherwise I cannot speak the language.

德：再多的等待也不会使我知道。 克：我知道的那一刻，这种认识就是时间。 普：你说了两三件事；你谈到了一个新的头脑。问题是旧大脑怎么了？ 克：旧的安静了。 普：它存在吗？ 克：当然；否则我就不会说这种语言。

P: The problem is of time as a horizontal movement which has continuity - I am asking the question; the moment you say the other continues to exist - K: Otherwise, I cannot function. P: When the new exists, the other, the old, does not. K: Perfectly right. Hold on for a moment. Let us call it for convenience sake, the old and the new brain. The old brain has, through centuries, collected all kinds of memories, registered every experience and it will function on that level all the time. It has its continuity in time. If it has no continuity, then it becomes neurotic, schizophrenic, imbalanced. It must have sane, rational continuity. Now that is the old brain with all its stored-up memories. Such continuity can never find anything new because it is only when something ends, that there is something new.

普：问题是时间是具有连续性的水平运动 —— 我在问这个问题；当你说另一个继续存在的那一刻—— 克：否则，我就不能运转了。 普：当新的存在时，另一个，旧的，不存在。 克：完全正确。稍等片刻。为了方便起见，让我们称它为新大脑和旧大脑。 几个世纪以来，旧大脑收集了各种记忆， 记录了每个体验，它将始终在该层面上运转。 它在时间上有其连续性。如果它没有连续性，那么它就会变得神经质、精神分裂、不平衡。 它必须具有理智、理性的连续性。现在，这就是旧大脑及其所有存储的记忆。 这种连续性永远不会发现任何新的东西，因为只有当某个东西结束时，才会有新的东西。

F: Continuity of what? When you say continuity, it has a movement. K: It is adding, taking away, adjusting; it is not static. D: There is a circular movement; it is a continuity. K: First let me see this continuity, the circular movement, as a repetition of the old. At a given point of time I call it the new, but it is still the old. I hanker for the new and invent the new within the circle. P: There is the new which is a rearrangement of the old and there is the "new', which is not a rearrangement of the old. What is the other new which is not the invention of the old? Is it recognizable, is it perceivable? K: It is perceivable but not recognizable.

莫：什么连续性？当你说连续性时，它有一个运动。 克：是增加、拿走、调整；它不是静态的。 德：有圆周运动；它是一种连续性。 克：首先让我把这种连续性，圆周运动看作是旧的重复。 在给定的时间点，我称之为新的，但它仍然是旧的。我渴望新事物，并在圈子内发明新事物。 普：这个新，是旧的重新排列， 还有一种新，不是旧的重新排列。 什么新不是旧的发明呢？它是可识别的，是可感知的吗？ 克：是可感知的，但无法识别。

P: So it is not an experience? K: It is a perception without the observer. D: But not in terms of the past. K: Perception means something new. F: Sensation is without the past. Sensation is not loaded. It is direct. K: The mind which has become mechanical craves for something new. But the new is always within the field of the known. You may call the movement within the field, horizontal, circular, infinity, but it is always within that field: I want the new in terms of the old. "P"'s question was about the brain, which is the result of time, experience, knowledge; what happens to that brain when there is a perception which is new, in which there is no experience, no observer; in which perception is not an experience to be stored up and remembered and therefore to become knowledge.

普：所以这不是一种体验？ 克：这是一种没有观察者的感知。 德：但不是就过去而言。 克：感知意味着新的东西。 莫：感受没有这个过去。感受不是被加载的。它是直接的。 克：已经变得机械化的头脑渴望着新。但新的总是在已知的场内。 你可以称场内的运动为水平、圆形、无穷大，但它总是在该场内： 利用旧的术语，我想要新的。 “普”的问题与大脑有关，大脑是时间、体验、知识的产物； 当有一种新的感知时，大脑在发生什么， 其中没有体验，没有观察者； 其中的感知不是一种需要储存和记住并因此成为知识的体验。

F: The brain does not respond: K: What makes it not respond? How does this happen? P: We should leave everything and remain here, because something of vital significance is happening here. We have still not got the feeling of it. I am listening to you. I am attentive. In that state of attention there is nothing else but sound and movement. Can I understand in that state what has happened to the whole weight of the past? K: It is fairly simple. I understand the question. The past is in continuous operation; it is registering every incident, every experience, the conscious and the unconscious: Everything is pouring in, the sound, the seeing.

莫：大脑没有回应： 克：是什么让它没有回应？这是怎么发生的？ 普：我们应该放下一切，留在这里，因为这里正在发生一些至关重要的事情。 我们仍然没有感觉到它。我在听你说话。我很细心。 在这种注意的状态下，除了声音和运动之外，别无他物。 在那种状态下，我能理解‘这个过去的整个重量’发生了什么吗？ 克：它很简单。我理解这个问题。这个过去在不断运作； 它记录每一个事件，每一个体验，包括有意的和无意的： 一切都在涌入，这声音，这所见。

P: The brain cells are acting independent of whether I am conscious or unconscious. K: Yes. Now when that brain is in operation, it is always acting from the past. First of all, what is wrong with it? P: If you observe it, it is like ripples being thrown up, thought as ripples, and suddenly I am attentive and there are no ripples. K: In that state of attention, there is perception. That state of attention is perception. D: When I see the fact that my brain is registering everything and I suddenly realize that it is going on without the observer, that annihilates me. If it goes on without me then I am finished.

普：脑细胞们正在行动，不论我是否意识到。 克：是的。现在，当大脑在运作时，它总是从过去开始行动。首先，这有什么问题？ 普：如果你观察它，它就像被激起的水波，思想如同波纹，突然我注意，波纹没了。 克：在这种注意的状态下，有感知。这种注意的状态就是感知。 德：当我看到我的大脑正在记录一切时 我突然意识到，在没有观察者的情况下，它正在发生，那就消灭了我。 如果它在没有我的情况下继续，那么，我就完结了。

K: It is like a recording machine that is registering everything: D: Why do I need to call it a machine? It is a wondrous thing. And I do not know the why and how of it. K: You have heard that noise of the horn blowing. The brain cells have registered it. There is no resistance or acceptance. D: There is more to it.

克：它就像一台记录机，正在记录一切： 德：为什么我需要称它为机器？它是一个奇妙的东西。我不知道它为什么以及为何这样做。 克：你听到了喇叭吹响的声音。 脑细胞已经记录了它。其中没有抵抗或接受。 德：它还做了更多。

K: Go slow: This brain is a machine which registers. It is a tape-recorder that is registering everything all the time. You come along and challenge the brain. It will respond in terms of like, of dislike, you are a danger and she is not a danger. In that instant is born the "me". It is the function of the brain to register: D: That is a partial statement. That it registers is a fact but there may be something more to it.

克：慢一点：这个大脑是一台记录的机器。 它是一个录像机，一直在记录所有内容。你过来，并挑战这颗大脑。 它会用喜欢、不喜欢来回应，你是一个危险，而她不是一个危险。在那一瞬间，“我”诞生了。 大脑的功能就是记录： 德：那是一部分的陈述。它记录是事实，但可能还有更多的东西。

K: You are jumping ahead. The function of the brain is to register, to record. Every experience, whether conscious or unconscious, every sound, word, every nuance, is going on irrespective of the thinker as a separate entity. Resisting that noise which is unpleasant, listening to some flattery, to some insult, wanting more or less - out of this registration emerges the "me".

克：你跳到前面去了。大脑的功能是注册，记录。 每一次体验，无论是有意的还是无意的， 每一个声音，每一个词，每一个细微差别，都在进行，而不受那位作为一个独立的实体的思想者的影响。 抵制那种令人不快的噪音，听某个奉承，某个侮辱，想要更多或更少 —— 从这本记录册中，出现了“我”。

P: When the registration takes place, I am conscious of the sound. K: Which is what? That it is pleasant or unpleasant. At the moment of experiencing, there is no "I" in it at all. P: There is a state with the sound and there is a state without the sound: K: Now comes the new action. I register that noise - the hideous noise, the ugly noise - there is no response to it. The moment there is response, that response is the "I". That response increases or decreases according to pleasure, pain, suffering. Now, "P"s question was how is that brain which is doing all this automatically, mechanically, all the time, how is that old brain whether it is running horizontally or in circles, how is that brain ever to see without the registerer or registration?

普：在记录的同时，我意识到这个声音。 克：是什么？那是愉快的或不愉快的。在体验的那一刻，里面根本没有“我”。 普：有声的状态，无声的状态： 克：现在，出现新的行为。我记录了那个噪音 —— 可怕的噪音，醜陋的噪音 —— 没有对它做出任何回应。 有回应的那一刻，那个回应就是“我”。 那种回应的强弱，根据快乐、痛苦、受苦而定。 现在，“普”的问题是，那个大脑是如何自动地、机械地、一直地做这一切。 那个旧大脑是水平跑、绕圈跑、还是在怎样运转， 没有这位记录者或记录本，大脑能看吗？

P: We have gone over this. I want to take it further from there. We listen. Sound passes through us. There is attention. In that state, for a second, horizontal movement has come to an end. What has happened to the old brain? K: But it is still there. P: What do you mean it is still there? K: Look at it. See what has happened. There is that child crying. The sound is being registered, the child's cry, why the mother does not look after it, all the rest of it.

普：我们已经讨论过了。我想从那里走得更远。 我们听。声音穿过我们。有注意。 在这种状态下，水平运动暂时结束了。旧大脑怎么了？ 克：它依然存在。 普：你的意思是它还在那里？ 克：你看。看发生了什么。那个孩子在哭。 声音被记录下来，孩子的哭声，母亲为什么不照顾它，等等。

P: Do you record all that? K: No. I am purely listening. There is complete listening. Now what happens in that listening? What has happened to the old brain in that listening? Have you understood the question? We are taking the journey together. (Pause) Let me put it differently. What is the essential need of a brain? (Pause) Must it not feel safe, secure, to function? One sees the brain needs security. Then some event happens and the brain sees the fact that to have presumed that there was security, comfort is not true.

普：你把那些都录下来了吗？ 克：没有。我只是在听。完全地听。 现在，听，在发生什么？旧大脑在发生什么？ 你理解这个问题吗？我们正在一起踏上旅程。（暂停） 让我换个说法。大脑的基本需求是什么？（暂停） 它难道不需要感到安全、有保障、以便于运作吗？ 一个人看到大脑需要安全。 然后，发生了某个事件，大脑看到这个事实：假设出来的安全感、舒适感是不真实的。

D: The brain cannot see it. F: We take the brain as an accumulation of impressions and storehouse of memories and so on, but the storehouse of memories is outside the brain and the brain is only a lens. P: Why do we not observe our own minds at this moment, instead of talking of the brain in the abstract? K: Listen - your brain demands security; it needs a great sense of protection, both physical and psychological. That is all I am saying. That is its function. That is the essential point.

德：这颗大脑看不见它。 莫：我们把大脑当作印象的积累和记忆的仓库等等， 但记忆的仓库在大脑之外，大脑只是一个镜头。 普：为什么我们此刻不观察自己的头脑，而是抽象地谈论大脑？ 克：听 —— 你的大脑需要安全；它需要身体和心理上的强烈保护感。 那就是我要说的全部内容。那是它的功能。那是关键点。

D: What is the basic query? P: The basic query is that when there is this horizontal movement of the mind as time, as memory, as brain cells operating, what is it that makes the "other" possible and what takes place when the "other" is? K: I will tell you. The brain cells need security, protection, safety to survive. They have survived for millions of years. Now what takes place? In order to survive, the brain cells say I must have nationalities, which brings disaster. So in its search for security, the mind is always experimenting and gets stuck - the guru, nationalism, socialism - it gets stuck and has to be rooted out. Because the basic thing is that it wants safety and survival and therefore it has invented a time sequence of survival - horizontal or circular. When the basic necessity is granted, what happens? Is the perception in terms of security not entirely different? D: It is the demand for security that resists the question you are asking.

德：基本的问题是什么？ 普：基本的问题是，当头脑有这种作为时间，作为记忆的水平运动时， 当脑细胞在这么运动时，是什么使“另一个”成为可能，当“另一个”存在时，又发生了什么？ 克：我会告诉你。脑细胞需要安全，保护，可靠，以便于存活。 它们已经存活了数百万年。现在，在发生什么？ 为了存活，脑细胞说我必须有国籍，这就带来了灾难。 因此，在寻求安全的过程中，大脑总是在实验并陷入困境。 —— 上师、民族主义、社会主义 —— 卡住了它，因而必须被根除。 因为最基本的东西是：它想要安全和存活 因此，它发明了一个存活的时间序列 —— 水平的或圆形的。 当基本必需品被保障时，在发生什么？ 对安全的这种感知是否完全变了？ 德：对安全的需求抵制了你所提出的问题。

K: No, I have got my security. So far for seventy years it has not been damaged because it says survival, not at the price of illusion. It says do not invent beliefs or ideas for in them there is no security at all. Wipe them out because they are illusory. Therefore it is completely secure; not in anything, but in itself it is secure. Before it sought security through something - through family, through god, egotism, competition, through seeking. Security through something is the greatest insecurity. It discards that. Therefore it can perceive. Because it has no illusions, motives, formulas, it can perceive. Because it does not seek any security, it is completely secure. The mind is then free of illusions; illusion not in the sense of Sankara, but just the illusion that I will find security in family, in God, in knowledge which is the past. Now what is there to perceive? "It" is perceiving.

克：不，我有我的安全。 到目前为止，七十年来，它还没有被损坏，因为它说存活，而不是以幻想为代价。 它说不要发明信仰或观念，因为在它们身上根本没有安全。消灭它们，因为它们是虚幻的。 因此，它是完全安全的；不在任何东西上，而是在它自身上，它就是安全。 以前，它在家庭、上帝、利己主义、竞争等等东西上寻求安全。 通过某个东西获得安全是最大的不安全。它丢弃了它。 因此它可以感知。因为它没有幻想、动机、公式，它可以感知。 因为它不寻求任何安全，所以它是彻底安全的。 这样，头脑就没有幻觉了； 幻觉不商羯罗所说的幻觉，而只是指： 我会在家庭、上帝、过去的知识中找到安全。 现在，什么在感知？‘它’在感知。

F: We are as we are made; we know we are at the mercy of the psychosomatic body and there we are very insecure. And there has to be a different approach to this. It is something very vulnerable because our bodies are so fragile. K: So I will protect the body. There is no egotism involved in it. F: Vulnerability is connected with ego. K: I will protect the body without the ego. I will wash it, look after it. We think we protect the body through the "I". Once we grant deeply the necessity for complete survival, for protection, for safety for the brain, we will solve all the other problems. Let us put it in this way: Is perception related to the brain cells which demand security, survival at any price?

莫：我们就像我们被造的一样；我们知道我们受到心身的摆布，在那里我们非常不安全。 对此必须采取不同的方法。它是非常脆弱的东西，因为我们的身体是如此地脆弱。 克：所以，我会保护这个身体。其中没有自我主义。 莫：脆弱与自我有关。 克：我会保护身体，没有自我。我会清洗它，照顾它。 我们认为我们通过“我”来保护身体。 一旦我们深入地認識到：完全的存活、保障、这颗大腦所求的安全的必要性， 我們就會解決所有其余的問題。 让我们这样说： 感知是否与不惜一切代价要求安全、存活的脑细胞们有关联？

P: My mind does not function in this way. Therefore I find it very difficult to listen. I am trying to work at a microscopic examination of the mind to see whether it is possible to arrive at a point when actually the brain cells cease functioning. Questions of security or of non-security have no relevance. At this moment if I raise these questions I am lost. Here I am before you and I want to understand this movement of time which is horizontal, to see whether there can be a state of the brain cells ceasing to function. Any queries, questions, answers, away from this will only lead to confusion.

普：我的头脑不是这样运作的。因此，我觉得很难去听。 我试图对头脑进行微观检查 看看是否有可能达到脑细胞真正停止运作的点。 安全或非安全问题无关紧要。 此刻，如果我提出这些问题，我就迷失了。 我在你面前，我想理解这种水平上的时间运动， 看看是否存在脑细胞停止运作的状态。 任何疑问，问题，答案，远离这一点只会导致混乱。

K: Are you saying, having finished with what we have said, my brain cells are in perpetual movement in one form or another? P: I say I am listening to you. There is no movement in my mind. K: Why? Because you are listening with attention, attention in which there is no centre to attend, a state in which you are just attending? P: Now I ask in that state, where is the weight of the past? I am asking that question to understand the problem of time, and not anything else. K: When you say I am attending, giving complete attention, is there time in that? P: Because there is no response, how do I measure?

克：你是在说，在结束我们所说的之后， 我的脑细胞们是以这样或那样的形式在不断运动吗？ 普：我说我在听你说话。我的脑海中没有任何动静。 克：为什么？因为你在聆听，带着关注， 其中不存在一个参与的中心，你只是在参与吗？ 普：现在，我问，在那种状态下，过去的重量在哪里？ 我问这个问题是为了理解时间问题，而不是别的什么。 克：你说我在参与，给予了完整的注意，在那种状态中，有时间吗？ 普：因为没有回应，我该如何衡量？

K: When there is attention, there is no time, because there is no movement at all. Movement means measurement, comparison; from here to there and so on. In attention there is no ripple, there is no centre, there is no measurement. The next question is, what has happened to the old brain? Keep it there. It is your question. What has happened? (Pause.) I have got it. What has happened? Attention is not disassociated from the brain. Attention is the whole body. The psychosomatic organism is attentive, which is also the brain cells. Therefore, the brain cells are exceedingly quiet, alive, not responding with the old. Otherwise you could not be attentive. There is the answer. And in that attention the brain can function. That attention is silence, is emptiness; call it what you like. Out of that silence, innocence, emptiness, the brain can operate; but not the thinker in terms of seeking security in something.

克：当存在注意时，就没有时间，因为根本没有运动。 运动意味着测量、比较；从这里到那里等等。 在注意中，没有涟漪，没有中心，没有测量。 下一个问题是，旧大脑发生了什么？把它留在那里。 这是你的问题。发生了什么？（暂停。） 我抓住了。发生了什么？ 这种注意并没有与大脑分离。注意就是整个身体。 身心有机体是细致的，微妙的，脑细胞也是。 因此，脑细胞们非常安静，活泼，没有旧的回应。 否则你不能处于微妙的状态。 这就是答案。在这种注意中，大脑能运转。 那个注意是寂静，是虚无；随心所欲地称呼它。 从那寂静、纯真、虚无中，大脑能运作； 而不是在某个东西中寻求安全感的思想者。

P: Does it mean the whole brain has undergone a transformation? K: No. What has taken place is mutation. The observer is not. P: But the brain cells are the same. K: Watch it. Do not put it that way; then you are lost. Watch it in yourself. Attention means complete attention - body, psyche, the cells; everything is there with life, alive. In that state, there is no centre, there is no time, there is no observer as the "me". There is no time in terms of the past but yet the past exists because I speak the language. I have to go to the room. Right? Then what happens to the brain cells? They are registering but there is no "me". Therefore the "me" which is part of the brain cells is wiped out.

普：它是否意味着整个大脑都发生了转变？ 克：不是。已经发生的是突变。观察者没了。 普：但是脑细胞们是一样的。 克：看。不要这样说；那样你就迷路了。你亲自去看。 关注意味着完全的注意 —— 身体、心灵、细胞们；一切都有生机，活泼。 在那种状态下，没有中心，没有时间，没有作为“我”的观察者。 就过去而言，没有时间，但过去是存在的，因为我说这种语言。 我得去这间房。对吗？ 那么，脑细胞在发生什么？他们正在记录，却没有“我”。 因此，作为脑细胞一部分的“我”，被消灭了。