P: You have said when we were discussing Tantra, that there is a way of awakening energy. The Tantrics concentrate on certain psychic centres, and thereby release the dormant energy in those centres. Would you say there is any validity in this? What is the way of awakening energy? K: What you said just now, concentrating on the various physio-psychical centres, implies, does it not, a process of time? So I would like to ask, can that energy be awakened without a process of time?
普：当我们谈到密教经典时，你提到一种唤醒能量的方法。 密教人专注于心中的某一点，从而释放出里面沉寂的能量。 这样做有价值吗？唤醒能量的方法是什么？ 克：你刚刚提到的专注于身心上的各个点， 它不就隐含着一种时间的过程吗？ 那么我想问：能不能不通过时间而唤醒能量？
P: In this whole process, the traditional way demands correct posture and an equilibrium of breath. If the body does not know how to sit erect, and how to breathe rightly, there can be no ending of thought. To bring body and breath to an equilibrium, a process of time becomes inevitable. K: There may be a totally different approach to this problem. Tradition starts from the psychosomatic, the posture, the breath control and gradually through various forms of concentration to the full awakening of energy. That is the accepted way. Is there not an awakening of this energy without going through all these practices?
普：这个过程里，传统的方法要求正确的姿势和呼吸的均匀。 如果身体不知道如何坐直，如何正确地呼吸，那么思想就不会停下。 要使身体和呼吸达到平衡，时间的过程是不可避免的。 克：关于这个问题，也许有一种完全不同的处理方式。 传统通过对控制身体和心灵上的姿势和呼吸， 以不同形式的专注而逐渐达到完全唤醒能量的结果。 那是公认的方法。 然而，不经历所有那些训练，就不唤醒能量吗？
P: It is like the Zen-Masters who say the real master is one who puts aside effort, and yet in Zen to master archery a tremendous mastery over technique is necessary. It is only when there is total mastery that effort drops away. K: You are beginning at this end rather than at the other - this end being time, control, energy, perfection, perfect balance. All this seems to me like dealing with a very small part of a very vast field. Tradition gives great importance to the past, to breathing, to the right posture. All these are limited to a corner of the field and through that corner you hope to have enlightenment. The corner then becomes a trick. Through some kind of psychosomatic acrobatics, it is hoped that you will capture the light, the whole universe. I do not think enlightenment is there - not through one corner. It is like seeing the sky through a small window and never going outside to look at the sky. I feel that way is an absurd way of approaching something totally vast, timeless. P: Even you would admit that correct posture and right breathing strengthen the structure of the mind.
普：这就好像禅宗的大师们说的，真正的大师是放下努力的人， 而在禅家，要掌握箭术，大量技术上的技巧是必需的。 只有当一个人完全掌握时，才可以放弃努力。 克：你宁愿从这里开始而不是那里 —— 这里即是时间，控制，能量，完善，完美的平衡。 这一切在我看来，就好像在打理广袤田野上的一小块田地。 在传统文化上，极其地重视过去的经验：怎样呼吸，什么是正确的姿势，等等。 这一切都被限定于整个领域的一个角落里。通过那个角落，你希望觉悟。 那个角落就变成了一个阴谋。 通过一些身心上的技巧，希望自己能抓住光明，把握这个宇宙。 我不认为那是觉悟 —— 不是通过一个角落。 这就好像通过一扇小窗户去观天，却从不走出窗外。 我认为以那种方式去接近某种完全广大的、非时间的东西，是荒谬的。 普：即使是你自己也会承认：正确的姿势和呼吸可以强化这颗头脑的结构。
K: I want to approach all this quite differently. In approaching it entirely differently, it is necessary to throw out all that has been said. I see the corner is like a candle in sunshine. The candle is being lit very carefully in brilliant sunshine. You are not concerned with sunshine, but work away at lighting the candle. There are other things involved; there is the awakening of energy which has been dissipated so far. To centralize energy, to gather the whole of it, attention is involved, and the elimination of time altogether. I think there are these major factors - time, attention which is not forced, which is not concentration, which is not centred round a part, and the gathering of energy. I think these are the fundamental things one has to understand because enlightenment must be and is the comprehension and understanding of this vast life - life being living, dying, loving; the whole travail and going beyond it. The traditional Masters would also agree that you have to have attention to go beyond time. But they are the worshippers of the corner. They use time to go beyond time.
克：我想以完全不同的方式来处理这一切。 既然要用全新的方式，就必须抛弃以前的一切说法。 我看到，这个角落就像阳光下的一支蜡烛。 在明亮的阳光下，这根蜡烛被小心地点燃。 你丝毫不关心阳光，而是孜孜不倦地去点燃这根蜡烛。 这里还涉及到别的事物；至今已经浪费的能量正在苏醒。 要集中能量，汇集全部的能量，涉及到关注，以及时间的湮灭。 我想这些主要的因素 —— 时间和关注 —— 关注不是被强迫的，不是专注，不是以某个局部为中心而聚焦能量。 我想这些是基础，一个人必需理解， 因为觉悟必定是，领会和理解这广袤的生命 —— 正在生长、正在消逝、处于爱的行动之中的生命；这完整的细节，并越过它。 传统的大师们也赞成：你必须注意，以越过时间。 但是他们崇尚这个角落。他们用时间来超越时间。
P: How Sir? I take a posture and direct my attention. What is the time involved in this? K: Is attention the result of time? P: No. You ask a question and there is immediate attention. Is this attention the product of time? K: No, certainly not.
普：怎么做，先生？我摆一个姿势，引导我的注意力，这其中涉及到时间吗？ 克：注意力是时间的结果吗？ 普：不是。你问一个问题，就立刻出现了关注。这个注意力是时间的产物吗？ 克：不，当然不是。
P: Your question and my attention being there, is there time involved? If you would regard this as so, the self-knowing process which is going on all the time also involves time. My mind twenty years ago would not have known the present quality. This state had no existence then. K: Let us go slowly. We are trying to understand something which is out of time. P: The tradition says prepare the body and mind. K: Through time you prepare the body and mind to receive, to comprehend, to be free of time. Through time can you do this?
普：你的问题和我的注意力就在那儿，时间插足了吗？ 如果你认为有，那么在一直进行的自我认识过程中，也涉及到时间。 在二十年前，我的头脑并不知道它现在的品质。当时，这种状态并不存在。 克：让我们走得慢一点。我们尝试理解某种时间之外的东西。 普：传统说，准备好身体和心灵。 克：通过时间，你准备好身体和心灵，以便于接受，领悟，挣脱时间。 你能通过时间做到这些吗？
P: The tradition also posits that through time you cannot go beyond time. K: I am asking, when you say through time you perfect the instrument, is it so? I question that. Through time can you perfect the instrument? Now first of all who is it that is perfecting the instrument? Is it thought? P: It would be invalid to say only thought. There are many other factors involved.
普：传统同样认为，你无法通过时间去超越时间。 克：我问你，你说通过时间以完善这躯体，不是吗？我质疑那一点。 通过时间，你可以完善这躯体吗？ 那么，首先，是谁在完善这躯体？是思想吗？ 普：仅仅说它是思想，是不对的，里面涉及到很多其它的因素。
K: Thought, the knowing of thought, intelligence, are all maintained by thought. To say thought must end and intelligence must come into being is again an action of thought. The statement, thinker and thought are one, is again an action of thought. You are saying perfect the instrument through thought. To me the traditional approach to perfect the instrument through thought and so to go beyond, and the act of cultivating intelligence and the going beyond time - all these are still in the area of thought. That is so. Therefore in that very thought there is the thinker. That thinker says this must happen, this must not happen. That thinker has become the will of achievement. The will to perfect the instrument is part of thought.
克：思想，对思想的了解，智慧，都靠思想维护。 声称：‘思想必须终止，智慧必须产生’。这也是一种思想行为。 这就好像是在说‘思想者和思想是一’。 你说：通过思想来改善躯体。 我说，通过思想使躯体完善，以超越思想的传统方式， 培育智慧并超越时间的这种行为 —— 这一切依然在思想的领域。就是那样。 因此，在那种想法中，存在着思想者。思想者说这必定发生，这必须避免。 那个思想者变成了取得成就的意志。 完善这具躯体的意志，就是思想的一部分。
P: In this circle which you are talking; about, in that which you are describing just now, is also implied the questioning of the very instrument which is thought. K: But the questioner is part of thought; the whole structure is part of thought. You can divide, subdivide, change, but it is all within the field of thought, and that is time. Thought is memory, thought is material; the material is memory. We are still functioning within the area of the known and the man who is cultivating thought says he will go to the unknown through the known, perfect the known and get enlightenment. Again all this is thought.
普：在你刚才说的这个循环中，你现在描述的情形里， 也同样暗示着对这个工具，也就是对思想的质疑。 克：但是质疑者也是思想的一部分；整个结构也是思想的一部分。 你可以划分，细分，改变，然而这一切都在思想的领域，那也就是时间。 思想是记忆，思想是物质，这种材质就是记忆。 我们还是在已知的领域内打转， 而那个培育思想的人说， 他要走出已知，并抵达未知，完善已知获得觉悟。 同样，这一切还是思想。
P: If everything is thought, it must then be necessary to give birth to a new instrument. K: When thought says it must become silent and becomes silent it is still thought. What the traditionalists do is to work within the field of thought which is the corner of the field. But it is still the result of thought. Atman is the result of thought. The brahman to which man looks up, is the result of thought. The man who experienced it had nothing to do with thought. It just happened, whereas his disciples came along and said do this, do that. It is all within the field of thought.
普：如果一切都是思想，那么就有必要诞生一种新的工具。 克：当思想说它自己必须安静，于是变得安静下来时，它依旧是思想。 传统主义者所做的事情都在思想的范畴内，即整个领域的角落里。 它依然是思想的结果。 宇宙灵魂是思想的结果。人们仰望的梵，是思想的结果。 经历过它的人与思想毫无干系。 它只不过发生了，然而他的弟子们却走过来说，‘这样做，那样做。’ 这一切说法，都在思想的这个领域内。
P: Then there is no proceeding. K: See how thought plays tricks upon itself - I must have balance, I must have the right posture in order that the life energy flows through. Right? I say thought is of the past. Thought can create the most marvellous instrument - it can go to the moon, to Venus; but thought can never possibly touch "the other" because thought is never free, thought is old, thought is conditioned. Thought is the whole structure of the known.
普：那么，就不存在过程。 克：看看思想是如何欺骗它自己的吧 —— 我必须保持平和，我必须姿势正确，这样一来，生命的能量才能畅通。 对吗？我说，思想就是过去。思想可以制造最奇妙的工具 —— 它能够去月球，去金星；但是思想永远不可能触及‘另一个’， 因为思想永远不自由。思想是陈旧的，是受限的。 思想就是整个已知的框架。
P: What do you mean by "the other"? K: That is not it. P: That is not what? K: This is within the field of time; thought which is time. That is within the field of silence. Therefore find out if sorrow can end. Come out of the corner. Find out what life is, what death means, what it means to end sorrow. If you have not come upon this, playing tricks upon thought has no meaning. You can awaken all the kundalinis, but to what purpose?
普：‘另一个’是什么意思？ 克：那不是它。 普：那不是什么。 克：这在时间的领域；思想即时间。那在静的领域。 因此，找出悲伤能不能结束。从角落里走出来。 找出什么是生命，死亡是什么意思，结束悲伤是什么意思。 如果你没有面对这，那么与思想玩游戏没有任何意义。 你可以唤醒所有的生命力，但是那有什么意图？
Therefore a man teaching how to awaken the kundalinis or making man proficient in archery in the Zen way or in the practice of the various forms of Tantra are all within the bondage of time, which is thought. I see that and I see that it is going round in circles. The circle may be higher but it is still a circle, a bondage, which is time. So I would not touch it. I would not touch it because I see the nature, structure and order of this corner. The corner has no meaning to me. When there is the marvellous sun, all the siddhis and powers are like many candles.
因此教人如何唤醒生命力或者禅教人成为射箭能手 或者练习密教的各种功法，这一切都在时间的束缚内，也就是在思想的领域中。 我看到那一点，我也看到那是在绕圈子。 这个圈子也许更高，但是它依旧是一个圈，一种束缚，即时间。 因此我不会去碰它。我不会碰它，因为我看到这种性质、结构，以及这个角落的秩序。 这个角落对我来说没有意义。 当出现了奇妙的太阳，所有的神功和能量都如同烛光。
Can the mind, listening to this, wipe it away? The very listening is the wiping away. Then you have it. Then there is attention, love; everything is there. You see, logically, this holds whereas the other does not. The exercise of the brain is to find the truth and the false; to see the false as the false. You see when the boy Krishnamurti saw the truth, it was over. He gave up all organizations, etc. He had no training "to see".
这颗头脑，听到这一点，能把它清除吗？ 这种听，就是清除。那么你有它。 然后，有关注，爱；万物皆在。你看，在逻辑上，这抓取，而‘另一个’不会。 训练头脑，去寻找真理和错误；如实地看见错误。 你看，当小男孩克里希那穆提看见这个真理，它结束了。 他放弃了所有的组织，等等。他没有训练如何去看。
P: But you had training. You were put through a vigorous training of the body. K: So they tell us. Because the body was neglected. And so they said if he was not looked after he would fall ill. P: But Sir, apart from physical discipline, there were instructions as to how to bring up that boy. K: It was like combing the hair, doing asanas, pranayama; it was all at that level. B: It is very subtle. I am not saying that what happened had any relationship to the illumination, but it is necessary to look after the body. K: Yes, it is necessary to keep the body healthy.
普：但是你受过训练。你通过了一套对身体的有力的训练。 克：他们告诉我的。因为这个躯体受到了忽视。 他们说，如果他不被照顾，他会生病。 普：但是先生，除了身体训练之外，还存在对那个小男孩的指导。 克：做瑜伽体式和调理气息，就如同梳理头发一样；它们处于同一个级别。 普：它很微妙。 我并不是说所发生的事情和觉悟有任何关系，但是照顾好身体的确很有必要。 克：是的，要保持这具躯体的健康。
P: Sir, if I may say so, you have the way of the yogi, you look like a yogi, your body takes the pose of a yogi. You have been doing asanas, pranayama, every day for so many years. Why? K: That is not important. It is like keeping my nails clean. I am saying the other is so childish; spending years in perfecting the instrument. All that you have to do is "to look".
普：先生，我可否这样说，你有瑜伽师的风范，你看起来像一名瑜伽师，你的身体有着瑜伽师的姿态。 你一直在做瑜伽动作，调理气息，日复一日，年复一年。为什么？ 克：那并不重要。它就如同清洁我的指甲一样。 我在说，花费许多年去完善这具躯体是很幼稚的。 你需要做的那一切，就是‘去看’。
P: But if one is born blind, only when a person like you comes and says, look, something happens. Most people would not understand what you are talking about. K: Most people would not listen to all this. They would brush it aside. B: The other is easier. It gives something whereas this gives nothing. K: This gives everything if you touch it. B: But the other is easier.
K: You see I am terribly interested in this. How has the mind of Krishnamurti maintained this state of innocence? P: What you are saying is not relevant. You may be an exception. How did the boy Krishnamurti come to it? He had money, organization, everything and yet he left everything. If I were to take my grand-daughter and leave her with you and she had no other companion but you, even then she would not have it. K: No, she would not have it. (pause) Wipe out all this. P: When you say that, it is like the Zen koan; the goose being out of the bottle. Did you have a centre to wipe away? K: No. P: So you had no centre to wipe away? You are unique and therefore you are a phenomenon, and so you cannot tell us you did this and so it happened. You can only tell us "This is not it" and whether we drown or not, no one else can tell us. We see this. We may not be enlightened, but we are not unenlightened. K: I think it is tremendously interesting - to see that anything that thought touches is not the real. Thought is time. Thought is memory. Thought cannot touch the real.
P: Yesterday, while you were on a walk, you said the first step is the last step. To understand that statement, I think we should investigate the problem of time and whether there is such a thing as a final state of enlightenment. The confusion arises because our minds are conditioned to think of illumination as the final state. Is understanding or illumination a final state?
普：你昨天散步时，曾说，第一步就是最后一步。 要理解它， 我想，我们应调查时间，以及是否有一种最终的觉醒状态。 在思考这种最终的觉醒状态的时候，我们的头脑就受到了限制，由此而产生出困惑。 理解或觉悟是一种最终的状态吗？
K: You know, when we said that the first step is the last step, were we not thinking of time as a horizontal or a vertical movement? Were we not thinking of movement along a plane? We were saying yesterday, when we were walking, if we could put aside height, the vertical and the horizontal altogether, and observe this fact that wherever we are, at whatever level of conditioning, of being, the perceiving of truth, of the fact, is at that moment the last step.
克：你可知道，当我们说第一步就是最后一步的时候， 我们并不认为时间是一种水平或垂直的运动， 我们并不认为思考是一种水平面上的运动？ 我们昨天谈到，在我们散步的时候， 如果我们能够把抛弃高度，这种在垂直上和水平上的衡量尺度，并观察这个事实： 无论我们在哪里，在哪种层面的局限上，在哪种状态下， 那真正的、实际的感知，就是最后一步。
I am a clerk in a little office, with all the misery involved in it; the clerk listens and perceives. The man listens and at that moment really sees. That seeing and that perception is the first and the last step. Because, at that moment he has touched truth and he sees something very clearly.
我是一个小厂的职工，被其中所有的悲苦缠缚； 这位职工听，感知。这个人听，在那一刻，真实地在看。 那个看，那个感知，是开始，也是最后一步。 因为，在那个瞬间，他触碰到真理，很清晰地看见某个东西。
But what happens afterwards is that he wants to cultivate that state. The perception, the liberation and the very perception bringing about liberation; he wants to perpetuate, to turn it into a process. And therefore he gets caught and loses the quality of perception entirely.
但是，在那发生之后，他想要培养那种状态。 那种感知，那种解放，那个看带来了解放； 他想要保存，把它变成一个过程。 因此，他失陷了，并完全地失去了感知的品质。
So, what we are saying is that any process involves finality. It is a movement from the horizontal to the vertical; the vertical leading to a finality. And therefore we think that perception, liberation is a finality; a point which has no movement. After all, the methods, the practices, the systems imply a process towards a finality. If there were no conceptual idea of finality, there would be no process.
因此，我们在说，任何一个过程里面都包含着终点。 它是一种在水平或垂直方向上的运动；方向指示出终点。 因此，我们认为那个感知，那种解放是一个终点；一个不动的点。 毕竟，所有的方法、训练、系统都暗示着一个终点。 如果没有概念上的终点，就不会有过程。
P: The whole structure of thought is built on a horizontal movement and therefore any postulation of eternity has to be on the horizontal plane. K: We are used to reading a book horizontally. Everything is horizontal - all our books. P: Everything has a beginning and an ending.
普：整个思想构造都是建立在水平运动上的。 因此，对永恒的任何假设，必然在这个水平面上。 克：我们习惯于水平地阅读一本书。一切的是水平的 —— 我们所有的书籍。 普：任何事情都有一个起点和终点。
K: And we think the first chapter must inevitably lead to the last chapter. We feel all the practices lead to a finality; to an unfoldment. It is all horizontal reading. Our minds, eyes and attitudes are conditioned to function on the horizontal and at the end, there is a finality. The book is over. You ask if truth or enlightenment is a final achievement; a final point beyond which there is nothing?
克：我们以为第一章不可避免地导向最后一章。 我们认为所有的训练都会导向一个终点，一种展现。这些都是水平的阅读。 我们的头脑、眼睛和态度被限制在水平面上运转，最终，到达一个终点。 这本书读完了。 你问：真理，或者觉悟，是不是一种最终的成就、一个别无它物的终点？
P: From which there can be no slipping back. I might for an instant perceive, and the quality of that, I understand. A little later, thought arises again. I say to myself "I am back in the old state". I question whether that "touching" had any validity at all. I put a distance, a block between myself and that state - I say, if that were true, thought would not arise.
普：在那里，是不能滑落的。 我可能有一瞬间感知，触及到那种品质，我理解了那。 过了一会儿，思想又出现了。我对我自己说‘我回到了以前的状态’。 我怀疑那种‘触及’是不是有一丝效果。 在我自己和那种状态之间，我插进了一段距离，一个障碍物 —— 我说，如果那是真的，思想就不会出现。
K: I see; I perceive something that is extraordinary; something that is true. I want to perpetuate that perception; give it a continuity so that perception - action continues throughout my daily life. I think that is where the mistake lies. The mind has seen something true. That is enough. That mind is a clear, innocent mind, which has not been hurt. Thought wants to carry on that perception through the daily acts. The mind has seen something very clearly. Leave it there. The next step is the final step. The leaving of it is the next final step. Because my mind is already fresh to take the next final step. In the daily movement of life, it does not carry over. The perception has not become knowledge.
克：我看见，我感知到某个非凡的东西，某个真实的东西。 我想要永远保持那样的感知； 使它延续，那样的话，让那种感知 —— 那种行为在我的日常生活中延续。 我想那就是错误所在。这颗头脑已经见到某些真实的东西，那就足够了。 那颗头脑是一颗清晰的，纯真的头脑，没有受到伤害。 思想想要通过日常的活动来维持那种感知。 这颗头脑已经非常清楚地看到某个东西，把它放在了那儿。 下一步就是最后一步。放下它，就是接下来的最后一步。 因为我的头脑已经清新如初，处理这接下来的最后一步。 在生命的日常运作中，它不背负任何东西。 这种感知，没有变成知识。
P: The self as the doer in relation to thought or seeing has to cease. K: Die to the thing that is true. Otherwise it becomes memory, which then becomes thought, and thought says how am I to perpetuate that state. If the mind sees clearly, and it can only see clearly when the seeing is the ending of it, then the mind can start a movement where the first step is the last step. In this there is no process involved at all. There is no element of time. Time enters when, having seen it clearly, having perceived it, there is a carrying over and the applying of it to the next incident. P: The carrying over is the not seeing or perceiving.
普：这个自我，作为与思想或被观察者相关联的这个行为主体，必须消亡。 克：死于那真实的东西。 否则，它就变成了记忆，接着化成思想，思想说：我要如何永远维持那种状态。 如果这颗头脑清晰地看，除非这一看是它的尽头，才能看清楚， 那么，这颗头脑能做一种运动，它的第一步就是最后一步。 这里面，不涉及任何过程，也没有与时间相关的因子。 当清楚地看见它，感知到它， 背负它，把它应用于下一个事件的时候，时间就进入了。 普：这种背负，不是看或感知。
K: So, all the traditional approaches which offer a process must have a point, a conclusion, a finality and anything that has a finality, a final point, is not a living thing at all. It is like saying there are many roads to the station. The station is fixed. Is truth a finality that once you have achieved it, everything is over - your anxieties, your fears and so on? Or does it work totally differently? Does it mean that once I am on the train, nothing can happen to me? Does it mean that I expect the train will carry me to my destination? All these are horizontal movements.
克：因此，提供了一个流程的一切传统方法必定有一个点，一个结论、一个结局。 而任何有一个结局、一个终点的事物，根本就不是活的。 就好像在说：到达这个车站有许多不同的路。这个车站是固定的。 真理是一个终局吗，一旦你抵达它，一切就结束了吗 —— 你的各种焦虑、恐惧等等？ 或者，它的运作是完全不同的？ 它是否意味着一旦我上了火车，就没有什么事发生了？ 它是否意味着我期盼着火车把我运送到我的目的地？这一切都是水平上的运动。
So a process implies a fixed point. Systems, methods, practices all offer a fixed point and promise man that when he achieves it, all his troubles are over. Is there something which is really timeless? A fixed point is in time. It is in time because you have postulated it. Because there has been thinking over of the final point, and the thinking of it is time.
因此，一个过程就暗含着一个固定的点。 系统、方法、训练，全都提供了一个固定点， 并向人保证：只要他抵达那一点，他所有的烦恼都解决了。 真地有永恒的东西吗？ 一个固定点处于时间之中。它在时间内，因为它被你设定好了。 对这个终点的仔细思考，对它的思考，就是时间。
Can one come upon this thing which must have no time, no process, no system, no method, no way? Can this mind which is so conditioned horizontally, can this mind, knowing that it lives horizontally, perceive that which is neither horizontal nor vertical? Can it perceive for an instant? Can it perceive that the seeing has cleansed and end it?
一个人能碰到这个必定无关于时间，没有过程，没有系统化的，没有方法和途径的东西吗？ 这颗被局限于水平面上的头脑， 这颗头脑，认识到它活在水平面上，能够感知那个既非水平的也非垂直的东西吗？ 它能够立刻感知吗？ 它能够感知，看清并结束它吗？
In this is the first and the last step because it has seen anew. Your question is, is such a mind ever free of trouble? I think it is a wrong question. You are still thinking in terms of finality, when you put that question. You have already come to a conclusion, and so are back again into the horizontal process.
这里面就是这第一步和这最后一步，因为它在全新地观看。 你的问题是，这样的头脑脱离了烦恼吗？我想这是一个错误的问题。 当你这么问，你还在思考结局的问题。 你已经遇到一个结论，并再次回到了这种水平面上的过程中。
P: The subtlety of it is that the mind has to ask fundamental questions but never the "how". K: Absolutely. I see very clearly; I perceive. Perception is light. I want to carry it over as memory, as thought, and apply it to daily living and therefore I introduce duality, conflict, contradiction. So I say how am I to go beyond it? All systems offer a process, a fixed point and the ending of all trouble.
普：其中的微妙之处在于：这颗头脑必须问基本的问题，而不是去问‘怎么办”。 克：绝对地。我看得非常地清晰；我感知。 感知是光。我想把它变成记忆、思想，带走它，并把它应用到日常的生活中， 因此我引入了二元性、冲突和矛盾。 因此我说，我要怎样才能超越它呢？ 所有体系提供了一个过程、一个固定点和所有烦恼的终点。
Perceiving is light to this mind. It is not concerned with perception any more because if it is concerned, it becomes memory. Can the mind, seeing something very clearly, end that perception? Then, here the very first step is the last step. The mind is fresh to look. To such a mind, is there an end to all troubles? It does not ask such a question. When it happens, it will see. See what takes place.
感知是照亮头脑的光。 它不再关心感知，因为如果它被关心，它就变成了记忆。 这颗头脑能清楚地看见某个东西，并结束那个感知吗？ 那么，这第一步，就是这最后一步。 看，这颗头脑是清新的。对这样的一个头脑，所有烦恼有一个终点吗？ 它不问那种问题。当它发生了，它会看。观看什么在发生。
When I ask the question "Will this end all trouble?" I am already thinking of the future and therefore I am caught in time. But I am not concerned. I perceive. It is over. I see something very clearly - the clarity of perception. Perception is light. It is over. Therefore the mind is never caught in time. Because I have taken the first step, I have also taken the last step each time. So we see that all the processes, all the systems, must be totally denied because they perpetuate time. Through time you hope to arrive at the timeless.
当我问：“这一切的烦恼会结束吗？” 我就已经在思考将来，因此我困于时间之中。 但是我并不关心。我感知。它结束了。我非常清晰地看见某个东西 —— 知觉上的清晰。 感知是光。它结束了。因此这个头脑绝不被时间所缚。 因为我每踏出一步，也进入了这最后一步。 因此我们看到：所有的过程、所有的系统，必须完全地被否定，因为它们使时间永续。 通过时间，你希望抵达这永恒。
P: I see that the instruments used in what you are saying are the fact of seeing and listening. These are sensory movements. It is through sensory movements that conditioning also comes into being. What is it that makes one movement totally dissolve conditioning and another to strengthen it? K: How do I listen to that question? First of all, I do not know. I am going to learn. If I learn in order to acquire knowledge, from which I am going to act, that action becomes mechanical. But when I learn without accumulating - which means perceiving, hearing, without acquiring - the mind is always empty. Then what is the question?
普：我看到，这使用的工具是看和听的这个事实。 这些都是感官运动。通过感官运动，局限还是存在。 是什么运动使一个人完全地消融了局限，而另一个人却强化了它？ 克：我该如何听那个问题？首先，我不知道。我去学习。 如果我为了获得知识去学习，并按照它来行动，那么，那种行动就变成了机械化的。 但是当我学习却不积累 —— 也就是感知，听，不去获取 —— 那么，头脑就总是虚无的。 那么，这个问题是什么？
Can the mind which is empty ever be conditioned and why does it get conditioned? A mind which is really listening, can it ever be conditioned? It is always learning, it is always in movement. It is not a movement from something towards something. A movement cannot have a beginning and an ending. It is something which is alive, never conditioned. A mind that acquires knowledge to function is conditioned by its own knowledge.
这个虚无的头脑会被局限吗？它为什么受局限？ 一颗在真实地听的头脑，它能被限制吗？ 它总在学习，总在运动。它不是一种由此及彼的运动。 而是一种不可能有起点和终点的运动。它是一个活的、从不受限的东西。 一个获取知识以运转的头脑，被它所拥有的知识所局限。
P: Is it the same instrument which is operating in both? K: I do not know. I really do not know. The mind which is crowded with knowledge sees according to that knowledge, according to that conditioning. P: Sir, seeing is like switching on light. It has no conditioning in itself. K: The mind is full of images, words, symbols. Through that, it thinks, it sees.
普：这两种情形中，都是同样的工具吗? 克：我不知道，我真的不知道。 这颗塞满了知识的大脑根据那些知识，根据那些限制来看。 普：先生，‘看’如同开灯。它本身没有任何局限。 克：这颗头脑中充满了图像、文字、符号。通过那些东西，它思考，它看。
P: Does it see? K: No. I have an image of you and I look through that image. That is distortion. The image is my conditioning. It is still the same vessel with all the things in it, and it is the same vessel which has nothing in it. The content of the vessel is the vessel. When there is no content, the vessel has no form. P: So it can receive "what is".
普：它在看吗？ 克：没有。我有一个关于你的印象，我通过那个印象来看你。那是扭曲。这个印象就是我的局限。 无论里面充满了这些东西，还是里面一无所有，它都是同一个容器。 容器的填充物就是这个容器。当没有了填充物，这个容器就没有形状。 普：那样，它能接受‘什么是’。
K: Perception is only possible when there is no image. That is very simple. You see, to go back, perception is only possible when there is no image - no symbol, no idea, word, form, which are all the image. Then perception is light. It is not that I see light. There is light. Perception is light. So perception is action. And a mind which is full of images cannot perceive. It sees through images and so is distorted. What we have said is true. It is logically so. I have listened to this. In the factor of listening there is no "I". In the factor of carrying it over, there is the "I". The "I" is time'
克：感知只有在没有印象的时候才有可能发生。那是很简单的。 你看，走回来，只有当没有印象 —— 没有符号、没有观念、言语和形态，没有所有这些印象的时候，才可能感知。 那么，感知就是光。不是我看见了光，这就是光。感知是光，因此，感知是行动。 一颗被各种印象填塞的头脑无法感知。它通过印象来看，所以被扭曲了。 我们所说的是真实的，在逻辑上是这样的。我听到了这个。 在听的因子中，不存在 ‘我’。 在‘把它带走’的因子中，存在这个‘我’。这个‘我’就是时间。
P: Science and yoga both maintain that when a living organism is exposed to tremendous energy there is a mutation. This happens when there is excessive exposure to radiation - it may lead to a mutation in the genes. It also happens according to yoga, when thought is placed in consciousness before the fire of energy. Do you think this has meaning in terms of what you are teaching? B: Radiation brings deformity. There can be destructive mutation. A laser beam pierces steel and flesh. It has the power to destroy as well as to heal.
普：科学和瑜伽都有这种观点： 当一个有机体暴露于巨大的能量场中，就有一种突变。 当过度的曝露于辐射场中 —— 可能导致基因突变。 根据瑜伽的说法，当意识中的思想曝露于能量之火中，也会如此。 你认为这在你的教诲之中有意义吗？ 芭：辐射引发畸变，能产生破坏性的突变。 激光刺穿钢铁和血肉。能量既可以毁灭，又可以治疗。
K: What would you say is human energy? What is energy in human beings? Let us keep it very simple. P: Energy is that which makes movement possible. B: Energy is at different levels. There is the energy at the physical level. Then the brain itself is a source of energy; it sends out electrical impulses. K: All movement, radiation, any movement of thought, any action is energy. When does it become intense? When can it do the most astonishing things? When can it be directed to do incredible things?
克：对于人类的能量，你会说它是什么？人有什么能量？让我们使它保持简单。 普：能量可以使物体产生运动。 芭：能量有不同的层面，有物理上的能量。 同时这颗大脑本身也是能量的源头；它发出电脉冲。 克：一切运动、辐射、任何的思想运动、任何行动，都是能量。 它在什么时候变得强烈？ 它在什么时候能做出最惊奇的事？ 它在什么时候能被引导着去做令人难以置信的事？
P: When it is not dissipated. When it is brought into focus. K: When does that happen? Does it happen in anger, hatred, violence? Does it happen when there is ambition, when there is tremendous desire? Or does it happen when a poet has the urge, the vitality, the energy to write? P: Such energy crystallizes and becomes static.
普：当它不被浪费、被聚焦的时候。 克：那时发生了什么？它发生在生气、仇恨、暴力的时候吗？ 或者，在雄心万丈、欲望爆发的时候？ 或者，在诗人拥有渴望、这种活力、这种写作的能量的时候？ 普：那种能量结晶，并呈现为静态。
K: We know this form of energy. But the energy we know does not bring about a change in the human mind. Why? This energy becomes intense when there is fulfilment in action. When does it move to a different dimension? An artist or a scientist, using his talent, intensifies energy and gives expression to it. But the quality of his mind, of his being, is not transformed by this energy. P: We are missing something in all this.
克：我们知道能量的这种形式。可是这种能量并没有带来人的头脑的改变。为什么？ 在行动的履行中，这种能量变得强烈。 在什么时候，它朝向不同的维度运动？ 一名艺术家，或者一位科学家，利用他的天赋，增强能量并将其表现出来。 但是他的头脑、他自身的品质，并没有通过这种能量而产生变化。 普：我们缺少某些东西。
K: You are asking whether there is a quality of energy which transforms the human mind? That is your question. Now, why does it not take place in the artist, in the musician, in the writer? P: I think it is because their energy is one-dimensional. K: The artist still remains ambitious, greedy, a bourgeois. S: Why do you say that greed would come in the way of energy operating? Man may be ambitious but he is also good. These are the elements which structure his self. K: We are asking why, when man has that energy, that energy does not bring about a radical change?
克：你在问‘有没有一种能量能转变人的头脑？’，那是你的问题。 现在，为什么它没有在艺术家、音乐家和作家的身上发生？ 普：我想，那是因为他们的能量是单维的。 克：这位艺术家依然是有野心的、贪婪的，是一个中产阶级分子。 苏: 你为什么这么说：在能量的运用中会出现贪婪？人或许有野心，但是他也是善良的。 正是这些因素构成了他的自我。 克：我们在问，当人具备了那种能量，为什么那种能量没有引发一次根本性的改变？
P: Man has energy to operate in his environment. But there are large areas of his being where there is no movement of energy. K: Man uses energy, operates fully in one direction, and in the other he is dormant. Energy is dormant in one part of his existence, and in the other part it is active. P: Even man's sensory instruments are utilized partially.
普：人在他的环境中运用能量。 但是，在他的生命中，还有大片领域的能量没有运动。 克：人使用能量，朝着一个方向使其完全地运转，而在其余的方向上，他却处于昏沉之中。 在他存在的一部分中，能量是昏沉的；而在另一部分中，它是活跃的。 普：即便是人的感官，也是在局部地被利用。
K: He is a fragmentary human being. Why does this division take place? One fragment is tremendously active, the other does not function at all. One fragment is ordinary, bourgeois, petty. When do these two fragments coalesce to become harmonious energy? An energy which is not fragmented? An energy which does not function fully at one level while at another level its voltage is low?
克：他是一个破碎的人类。这种分裂，为什么产生出这种分裂？ 一块碎片极其地活跃，而另一块却根本不转。 一块碎片是普通的、平庸的、琐碎的。 在什么时候，这两块碎片能够合并，变成和谐的能量？一种没有破碎的能量？ 在一个层面上没有完全地运转，在另一层面上处于低压状态的这片能量？
P: When the sensory instruments operate fully. K: When does this take place? Do they operate completely when there is a tremendous crisis? P: Not always, Sir. The action of crisis can also be partial; you can jump when you see a snake but you can jump into a bush of thorns.
普：当感官们充分地运转时。 克：这种情况在什么时候出现？当发生重大危机的时候，它们在完全地运转吗？ 普：不总是这样，先生。面对危机的行为也可能是片面的； 当你看到一条蛇，你可能跳起来，但是你可能会跳进布满荆棘的灌木丛中。
K: When does the fragment cease to be a fragment? Are we not thinking in terms of movement, in terms of action, in terms of change? We have accepted the movement to be, the movement of becoming. We have accepted fragmentation. The movement of becoming is always a movement in fragments. Is there a movement which does not belong to these categories? See what happens if there is no movement at all.
克：在什么时候，这块碎片不再是一块碎片？ 我们不是正在从运动、行为和改变的角度来思考吗？ 我们已经承认了这种运动，这种成为的运动。我们已经接受了这种碎片。 这种成为的运动，总是一种碎片化的运动。 有没有一种运动不属于这个类别？ 如果根本就没有运动，看看是什么情况？
P: I have always found it difficult to understand this question of yours. The nature of the very question suggests the other, the opposite. S: One really does not know the dormant movement.
普：我总是发现很难理解你的这个问题。 这个问题的性质，恰好支撑着另一个，这个问题的对立面。 苏: 一个人真地不知道这种沉睡着的运动。
K: At the beginning we said there was fragmentation. One fragment is very alive and the other is not alive. B: The energy of the artist, the whole of his being, operates one-dimensionally. There is non-awareness. K: I am not at all sure. One fragment is alive. You are saying the other fragment is not aware of itself at all. P: The artist paints, he also has an affair with a woman. He does not see these actions as fragments.
克：在开始，我们说，存在着分裂。 一块碎片非常活跃，而另一块碎片没有生机。 芭：艺术家的这种能量，他全部的存在，在单一的维度上运作。其中没有觉察。 克：我根本不确定。一块碎片处于活跃的状态。你说另一块碎片没有觉察到它自己。 普：这位艺术家绘画，他同时也喜爱一个女人。他没有把这些行为当作碎片。
K: We have gone beyond that. We see he is fragmented. He operates in fragments - one is active and the other is dormant. In that dormancy there is action going on. One is very active and the other is action in a minor key. We see this. Now the question is, can this energy heighten to bring about a mutation in the brain cells? P: Can it take the sluggish part along and alter its very structure so that there is a transformation in both?
克：我们已经超越了那一点。我们看到他是破碎的。 他在破碎中行动 —— 一块碎片是活跃的，而其它部分处于昏沉中。 在那昏睡中，进行着运动。 一种是活泼的，另一种是微弱的。我们看到这一点。 现在的问题：这个能量能不能增强，并使脑细胞产生一种突变？ 普：它能否激活懒散的部分，并改变它的结构，从而使两者都发生变化？
K: I may be a great sculptor. A part of me is dormant. You ask, can there be a mutation not only in the dormant but also in that energy which goes into the making of the sculptor? The question is, am I willing to accept that I may cease to be a sculptor? Because that may happen. When I go into this problem of a change in the very brain cells themselves, it is possible I may never be a sculptor. But it is very important for me to be a sculptor. I do not want to let that go.
克：我也许是个伟大的雕塑家，我其中的一部分处于昏睡的状态。 你问，能不能有一场突变 不仅发生在这昏睡的部分，也发生在那种使其成为雕塑家的能量中？ 这个问题是，我愿意接受‘我可能不再是一名雕塑家’？因为那是有可能发生的。 当我深入这个问题：这些脑细胞们能发生变化吗？这有可能使我不再是一名雕塑家。 但是，对我而言，当一名雕塑家是非常重要的，我不想放弃那种天赋。
P: Let us leave the sculptor. Here we are in front of you and you say, look, this change in the structure of the brain cells may be the ending of all the talent, of all significant action. We accept what you say.
普：让我们不要考虑这位雕塑家。我们就在你面前，你说， 看，脑细胞结构的这种改变可能终止所有的天赋，所有重要的行动。 我们接受你所说的。
K: That is right. If you are prepared to let go, then what takes place? Which means, you let go the talent, the fulfilment, the perpetuation of the "me". Now when does this mutation in the brain cells through energy take place? You see, where energy is being dissipated through talent and through other channels, energy is not completely held. When this energy has no movement at all, then I think something happens, then it must explode. I think then the quality of the brain-cell itself changes. That is why I asked why we are always thinking in terms of movement?
克：没错。如果你准备好放弃，那么，出现了什么？ 那意味着你放弃了这份天赋，这种成就，这个‘我’的延续。 现在，通过能量，脑细胞们的这场突变什么时候发生？ 你看，能量通过天赋和其他渠道而被耗费，能量没有被完全地掌握。 当这个能量完全不动的时候，那么，我想，某些事物发生了，它肯定爆发。 我想，那么，脑细胞的品质就自发地改变了。 那就是为什么我问：为什么我们总是从运动的角度来思考？
When there is no movement inwardly or outwardly, when there is no demand for experience, no awakening, no seeking, no movement of any kind, then energy is at its height. Which means, one must negate all movement. When that takes place, energy is completely quiet, which is silence. As we said the other day, when there is silence, then the mind is transforming itself. When it is completely fallow, when nobody is cultivating it, then it is quiet like the womb.
当内在和外在没有移动， 当没有对体验、觉醒、寻找等任何动作的要求，那么，能量处在它的高度。 这意味着，一个人必须否定所有的动。那一刻的出现，能量处于彻底的安静中，也就是寂静。 正如我们前些天提到的， 当出现寂静，那么，这颗头脑就在变化它自己。 当它处于完全的休耕状态，当没有人去培养它的时候，那么，它就像子宫一样安静。
The mind which is the vessel of movement, when that movement has no form, no "me", no vision, no image, it is completely quiet. In it there is no memory. Then the brain cells undergo a change. The brain cells are used to movement in time. They are the residue of time and time is movement; a movement within the space which it creates as it moves. When the mind sees this, when it sees the futility of all movement in the sense of time, then all movement ends.
这颗头脑，这个运动的容器， 当那运动没有形状、没有‘我’、没有影像、没有图片的时候，它就处于完全地安静中。 它的里面没有记忆。那么，脑细胞们经历一场改变。 脑细胞曾在时间中运动。它们是时间的残留，时间是运动； 一场在空间中的运动，当它运动时，它创造出空间。 当这颗头脑看到这，当它看到这种时间感中的所有运动的徒劳，那么所有的运动结束了。
So when the mind denies totally all movement, therefore all time, all thought, all memory, there is absolute quietness, not relative quietness. Therefore, the question is not how to bring about mutation, but to enquire into the structure of the brain cells. The realization that any movement from the brain cells gives continuity to time itself, puts an end to all movement. Movement is always in the past or in the future - movement from the past through the present to the future. That is all we know and we want change in this movement. We want the movement, and yet we want change in this movement, and therefore the brain cells continue. (Pause)
因此，当这颗头脑彻底地否定了所有的运动，因此所有的时间、所有的思想、所有的记忆， 就有绝对的安静，而不是相对的安静。 因此，问题不在于如何引发突变，而是深入调查脑细胞的这个结构。 意识到脑细胞产生的一切活动都使世界得以延续，就结束了所有的运动。 运动总是在处于‘过去’或‘将来’之中 —— 从‘过去’出发，路过‘现在’，抵达‘将来’。 那就是我们所知道的一切，在这种运动中，我们想要改变。 我们想要这种运动，却又想改变这种运动，因此这些脑细胞们在继续。(停顿)
It is amazingly simple. I do not know if you see this. We all want to complicate it. Any effort to stop movement is contradiction and therefore, time, and therefore no change at all. The seekers have all talked of a higher movement, the hierarchical movement. The question is, can the mind deny to itself all movement?
它异常地简单。我不知道你是否看见这。我们都想把它变复杂。 想要阻止运动的任何一种努力，就是矛盾；因此，时间；因此，根本没有改变。 追寻者都在谈论一种更高级的运动，这种层次化的运动。 这个问题是，这颗头脑能够亲自否定一切运动吗？
You see, as you watch your brain, there is the centre which is completely quiet and yet listening to everything that is going on - the bus, the birds. We want to stop the noise outside but keep on with the inner noise. We want to stop outer movement but carry on with the inner movement. When there is no movement, there is tremendous focus of energy. So mutation is the understanding of movement and the ending of movement in the brain cells themselves.
你看，当你观察你的大脑， 有一个彻底安静的中心，却在听那发生的一切 —— 这公交车、这些鸟儿。我们想要阻止这些外在的噪音，却保留着内在的嘈杂。 我们想要停止外在的运动，却背负着内在的运动。 当没有了运动，能量无尽的汇聚。 因此，突变是脑细胞们亲自理解运动，结束运动。