Question: You say the present crisis is without precedent. In what way is it exceptional?

问：你说目前的危机是史无前例的。它在哪些方面是例外的？

Krishnamurti: Obviously the present crisis throughout the world is exceptional, without precedent. There have been crises of varying types at different periods throughout history, social, national, political. Crises come and go; economic recessions, depressions, come, get modified, and continue in a different form. We know that; we are familiar with that process. Surely the present crisis is different, is it not?

克里希那穆提：显然，目前全世界的危机是特殊的，没有先例。 在整个历史的不同时期，社会、民族、政治等不同时期都发生过不同类型的危机。 危机来来去去；经济衰退，萧条，出现，被修改，接着以不同的形式继续。 我们都知道这；我们熟悉这一进程。 当然，当前的危机是不同的，不是吗？

It is different first because we are dealing not with money nor with tangible things but with ideas. The crisis is exceptional because it is in the field of ideation. We are quarrelling with ideas, we are justifying murder; everywhere in the world we are justifying murder as a means to a righteous end, which in itself is unprecedented.

首先，它是不同的，因为我们处理的不是金钱，也不是有形的东西，而是想法。 这场危机是特殊的，因为它是在构思的领域。 我们在与想法争吵，我们在为谋杀辩护； 在世界各地，我们都在为谋杀辩护，将其作为达到正义目的的手段，这本身是前所未有的。

Before, evil was recognized to be evil, murder was recognized to be murder, but now murder is a means to achieve a noble result. Murder, whether of one person or of a group of people, is justified, because the murderer, or the group that the murderer represents, justifies it as a means of achieving a result which will be beneficial to man. That is we sacrifice the present for the future - and it does not matter what means we employ as long as our declared purpose is to produce a result which we say will be beneficial to man. Therefore, the implication is that a wrong means will produce a right end and you justify the wrong means through ideation.

以前，邪恶被认为是邪恶的，谋杀被认为是谋杀， 但现在谋杀是达到崇高结果的一种手段。 谋杀，无论是一个人还是一群人，都是合理的， 因为凶手，或者凶手所代表的群体， 证明它是获取有益于人民的结果的一种手段。 那就是我们为了未来而牺牲现在 —— 我们采用什么手段并不重要 只要我们宣扬的目的是产生一个我们所说的、对人民有益的结果。 因此，言下之意即是：错误的手段会产生正确的目的 你通过构思来证明错误的手段是合理的。

In the various crises that have taken place before, the issue has been the exploitation of things or of man; it is now the exploitation of ideas, which is much more pernicious, much more dangerous, because the exploitation of ideas is so devastating, so destructive. We have learned now the power of propaganda and that is one of the greatest calamities that can happen: to use ideas as a means to transform man. That is what is happening in the world today.

在以前发生的各种危机中，问题一直是对物或人的剥削； 现在是对想法的剥削，这更加有害，更加危险， 因为对想法的利用是如此具有灾难性，如此具有毁灭性。 我们现在学会了宣传的力量，这可能是发生的最大灾难之一： 利用想法作为改造人的手段。 这就是当今世界正在发生的情况。

Man is not important - systems, ideas, have become important. Man no longer has any significance. We can destroy millions of men as long as we produce a result and the result is justified by ideas. We have a magnificent structure of ideas to justify evil and surely that is unprecedented. Evil is evil; it cannot bring about good. War is not a means to peace. War may bring about secondary benefits, like more efficient aeroplanes, but it will not bring peace to man. War is intellectually justified as a means of bringing peace; when the intellect has the upper hand in human life, it brings about an unprecedented crisis.

人不重要 —— 系统、想法已经变得重要。 人不再有任何意义。 我们可以摧毁数百万人，只要我们炮制一个结果，并且结果是被想法所证明的。 我们有一个宏伟的思想结构来为邪恶辩护，这当然是前所未有的。 邪恶就是邪恶；它不能带来善。 战争不是实现和平的手段。 战争可能会带来次要的好处，比如更高效的飞机，但它不会给人类带来和平。 战争在智力上是正义的，是实现和平的一种手段； 当智力在人类生命中占上风时，它会带来前所未有的危机。

There are other causes also which indicate an unprecedented crisis. One of them is the extraordinary importance man is going to sensate values, to property, to name, to caste and country, to the particular label you wear. You are either a Mohammedan or a Hindu, a Christian or a Communist. Name and property, caste and country, have become predominantly important, which means that man is caught in sensate value, the value of things, whether made by the mind or by the hand. Things made by the hand or by the mind have become so important that we are killing, destroying, butchering, liquidating each other because of them.

还有其他原因也表明了前所未有的危机。 其中之一是超级重要的人 正在走向感官价值，财产，名称，种姓和国家，以及你佩戴的特定标签。 你要么是回教徒，要么是印度教徒，要么是基督徒，要么是共产主义者。 姓名和财产，种姓和国家，已经变得非常重要， 这意味着人被困在感官价值中，即事物的价值，无论是由头脑还是由手制造出的。 由手或头脑制造的东西变得如此重要 为了它们，我们正在互相杀戮、破坏、屠杀、清算。

We are nearing the edge of a precipice; every action is leading us there, every political, every economic action is bringing us inevitably to the precipice, dragging us into this chaotic, confusing abyss. Therefore the crisis is unprecedented and it demands unprecedented action. To leave, to step out of that crisis, needs a timeless action, an action which is not based on idea, on system, because any action which is based on a system, on an idea, will inevitably lead to frustration. Such action merely brings us back to the abyss by a different route.

我们正接近悬崖边； 每一个行动都在引导我们到达那里， 每一个政治，每一个经济行动都不可避免地把我们带到悬崖边上， 把我们拖进这个混乱、迷茫的深渊。 因此，这场危机是前所未有的，需要采取前所未有的行动。 离开，走出危机，需要无时间的行为， 一个不基于想法、不基于系统的行为， 因为任何基于系统、想法的行为都不可避免地会导致挫折。 这种行为只会把我们从另一条路线带回这个深渊。

As the crisis is unprecedented there must also be unprecedented action, which means that the regeneration of the individual must be instantaneous, not a process of time. It must take place now, not tomorrow; for tomorrow is a process of disintegration. If I think of transforming myself tomorrow I invite confusion, I am still within the field of destruction. Is it possible to change now? Is it possible completely to transform oneself in the immediate, in the now? I say it is.

由于危机是前所未有的，也必须采取前所未有的行为， 这意味着个体的更新必须是瞬间的，而不是时间的过程。 它必须现在进行，不是明天；因为明天是一个瓦解的过程。 如果我明天想改变自己，我会引起混乱，我仍然在毁灭的领域内。 现在有可能改变吗？ 是否有可能在眼前、在当下完全改变自己？我说是。

The point is that as the crisis is of an exceptional character to meet it there must be revolution in thinking; and this revolution cannot take place through another, through any book, through any organization. It must come through us, through each one of us. Only then can we create a new society, a new structure away from this horror, away from these extraordinarily destructive forces that are being accumulated, piled up; and that transformation comes into being only when you as an individual begin to be aware of yourself in every thought, action and feeling.

关键是，由于危机具有特殊性质，因此应对危机具有特殊性质 思想必须有革命； 这场革命不可能通过别人，通过任何书籍，通过任何组织来实现。 它必须通过我们，通过我们每一个人。 只有这样，我们才能创造一个远离这种恐怖的新社会，一个新结构， 远离这些正在积累、堆积的极具毁灭性的力量； 这种转变的发生 只有当你作为一个个体，开始在每一个想法、行为和感觉中意识到你自己时。

Question: What is it that comes when nationalism goes?

问题：民族主义消失时会发生什么？

Krishnamurti: Obviously, intelligence. But I am afraid that is not the implication in this question. The implication is, what can be substituted for nationalism? Any substitution is an act which does not bring intelligence. If I leave one religion and join another, or leave one political party and later on join something else, this constant substitution indicates a state in which there is no intelligence.

克里希那穆提：显然，智慧。 但恐怕这不是这个问题的含义。 言下之意是，什么可以代替民族主义？ 任何替代都是一种不能带来智慧的行为。 如果我离开一个宗教而加入另一个宗教，或者离开一个政党，后来加入另一个政党， 这种不断的替换表明一种没有智慧的状态。

How does nationalism go? Only by our understanding its full implications, by examining it, by being aware of its significance in outward and inward action. Outwardly it brings about divisions between people, classifications, wars and destruction, which is obvious to anyone who is observant.

民族主义如何去何从？ 只有我们理解它的全部含义， 通过检查它，通过意识到它外在和内在的行动的意义。 从外在来看，它带来了人与人之间的分裂、等级、战争和毁灭， 对任何留心于观察的人来说，这都是显而易见的。

Inwardly, psychologically, this identification with the greater, with the country, with an idea, is obviously a form of self-expansion. Living in a little village or a big town or whatever it may be, I am nobody; but if I identify myself with the larger, with the country, if I call myself a Hindu, it flatters my vanity, it gives me gratification, prestige, a sense of well-being; and that identification with the larger, which is a psychological necessity for those who feel that self-expansion is essential, also creates conflict, strife, between people.

内在的，心理上， 这种对更伟大的、对国家、对一个理念的认同，显然是一种自我扩张的形式。 生活在一个小村庄或大城市或其他任何地方，我默默无闻； 但如果我认同更伟大的，认同国家，如果我称自己为印度教徒，它就会奉承我的虚荣心， 它给我满足感、声望和舒适感； 和那个更大的相认同， 对于那些觉得自我扩张是必不可少的的人来说，这是一种心理上的需要， 也造成了人与人之间的冲突、纷争。

Thus nationalism not only creates outward conflict but inward frustrations; when one understands nationalism, the whole process of nationalism, it falls away. The understanding of nationalism comes through intelligence, by carefully observing, by probing into the whole process of nationalism, patriotism. Out of that examination comes intelligence and then there is no substitution of something else for nationalism.

因此，民族主义不仅造成外在的冲突，而且造成内在的挫折； 当一个人理解民族主义，民族主义的整个过程时，它就消失了。 对民族主义的理解来自智慧， 通过仔细观察，通过探索民族主义、爱国主义的整个过程。 从这种检查中产生出智慧，然后就没有其他东西可以代替民族主义。

The moment you substitute religion for national1sm, religion becomes another means of self-expansion, another source of psychological anxiety, a means of feeding oneself through a belief. Therefore any form of substitution, however noble, is a form of ignorance. It is like a man substituting chewing gum or betel nut or whatever it is for smoking, whereas if one really understands the whole problem of smoking, of habits, sensations, psychological demands and all the rest of it, then smoking drops away.

当你用宗教代替民族的那一刻， 宗教就变成了另一种自我扩张的手段， 心理焦虑的另一个来源，是一种通过信仰养活自己的手段。 因此，任何形式的替代，无论多么高尚，都是一种无知。 这就像一个人用口香糖或槟榔或其他任何东西代替吸烟， 然而，如果一个人真的理解 吸烟整个问题，习惯，感觉，心理需求以及所有其他问题， 那么，烟灭了。

You can understand only when there is a development of intelligence, when intelligence is functioning, and intelligence is not functioning when there is substitution. Substitution is merely a form of self-bribery, to tempt you not to do this but to do that. Nationalism, with its poison, with its misery and world strife, can disappear only when there is intelligence, and intelligence does not come merely by passing examinations and studying books. Intelligence comes into being when we understand problems as they arise.

只有当智慧发生运转时，你才能理解， 当有替代品时，智慧不起作用。 替代只是一种自我贿赂的形式，诱惑你不要做这，而是做那。 民族主义及其毒药、苦难和世界冲突，只有在有智慧的情况下才能消失， 智慧不仅仅是通过考试和学习书籍。 当问题冒出并被我们理解时，智慧出现。

When there is understanding of the problem at its different levels, not only of the outward part but of its inward, psychological implications, then, in that process, intelligence comes into being. So when there is intelligence there is no substitution; and when there is intelligence, then nationalism, patriotism, which is a form of stupidity, disappears.

当对问题有各个层面的理解， 不仅在外层，而且在它的内里，在心理上的影响， 那么，在这个过程中，智慧就有了。 因此，当有智慧时，就没有替代品； 当有智慧时，民族主义，爱国主义，也就是某种愚蠢的形式，就会消失。

Question: You say that gurus are unnecessary, but how can I find truth without the wise help and guidance which only a guru can give?

问：你说上师是不必要的， 但是，要是没有上师才能给予的明智的帮助和指导，我怎么能找到真理？

Krishnamurti: The question is whether a guru is necessary or not, Can truth be found through another? Some say it can and some say it cannot. We want to know the truth of this, not my opinion as against the opinion of another. I have no opinion in this matter. Either it is so or it is not. Whether it is essential that you should or should not have a guru is not a question of opinion. The truth of the matter is not dependent on opinion, however profound, erudite, popular, universal. The truth of the matter is to be found out, in fact.

克里希那穆提：问题是上师是否必要，真理可以通过另一个人找到吗？ 有人说可以，有人说不能。 我们想知道这件事的真相，而不是用我的观点去反对另一个人的观点。 我对这件事没有观点。 它要么是，要么不是。 你是否应该有一个上师，这不是一个观点的问题。 事情的真相并不取决于观点，无论它多么深刻、博学、流行、普遍。 事情的真相需要被找出，实际地调查。

First of all, why do we want a guru? We say we need a guru because we are confused and the guru is helpful; he will point out what truth is, he will help us to understand, he knows much more about life than we do, he will act as a father, as a teacher to instruct us in life; he has vast experience and we have but little; he will help us through his greater experience and so on and on. That is, basically, you go to a teacher because you are confused. If you were clear, you would not go near a guru.

首先，我们为什么想要一位上师？ 我们说我们需要一位上师，因为我们感到困惑，而上师是有帮助的； 他会指出真理是什么，他会帮助我们理解，对于生命，他知道的比我们多得多， 他将像一位父亲，一位老师一样，来指导我们的生活； 他有丰富的体验，而我们只有很少； 他将通过他更伟大的体验等等来帮助我们。 也就是说，基本上，你去找老师是因为你困惑。 如果你清楚，你就不会靠近上师。

Obviously if you were profoundly happy, if there were no problems, if you understood life completely, you would not go to any guru. I hope you see the significance of this. Because you are confused, you seek out a teacher. You go to him to give you a way of life to clarify your own confusion, to find truth. You choose your guru because you are confused and you hope he will give you what you ask. That is you choose a guru who will satisfy your demand; you choose according to the gratification he will give you and your choice is dependent on your gratification.

显然，如果你非常快乐，如果没有问题，如果你完全理解生命， 你不会去找任何上师。 我希望你看到这一点的重要性。 因为你感到困惑，所以你找老师。 你去找他，给你一种生活方式来澄清你自己的困惑，以寻找真理。 你选择你的上师，是因为你困惑，你希望他会给你所要求的。 也就是说，你选择一个能满足你需求的上师； 你根据他会给你的满足来选择，你的选择取决于你的满意。

You do not choose a guru who says, "Depend on yourself; you choose him according to your prejudices. So since you choose your guru according to the gratification he gives you, you are not seeking truth but a way out of confusion; and the way out of confusion is mistakenly called truth.

你不会选择一位上师说：“依靠你自己； 你根据你的偏见去选择他。 因此，既然你根据上师给你的满意度来选择他， 你不是在寻求真理，而是在寻求摆脱困惑的出路； 摆脱困惑的出路被错误地称之为真理。

Let us examine first this idea that a guru can clear up our confusion. Can anyone clear up our confusion? - confusion being the product of our responses. We have created it. Do you think someone else has created it - this misery, this battle at all levels of existence, within and without?

让我们先来检视这个想法，也就是说，上师可以清除我们的困惑。 谁能澄清我们的困惑？—— 困惑是我们的回应结果。 我们已经创造了它。你认为是别人创造的吗 —— 这种悲苦，这种存在于存在各个层面的战斗，内部和外部？

It is the result of our own lack of knowledge of ourselves. It is because we do not understand ourselves, our conflicts, our responses, our miseries, that we go to a guru whom we think will help us to be free of that confusion. We can understand ourselves only in relationship to the present; and that relationship itself is the guru not someone outside. If I do not understand that relationship, whatever a guru may say is useless, because if I do not understand relationship, my relationship to property, to people, to ideas, who can resolve the conflict within me?

它是我们自己缺乏对自己的认识的结果。 它是因为我们不理解我们自己，不理解我们的冲突，不理解我们的回应、我们的悲苦， 我们去找一位上师，我们认为他会帮助我们摆脱这种困惑。 我们只能在现实的关系中理解我们自己； 而这种关系本身就是上师，而不是外面的某某人。 如果我不理解这种关系，无论上师说什么都是无用的， 因为如果我不理解关系，我与财物、与人、与思想的关系， 谁能解决我内心的冲突？

To resolve that conflict, I must understand it myself, which means I must be aware of myself in relationship. To be aware, no guru is necessary. If I do not know myself, of what use is a guru? As a political leader is chosen by those who are in confusion and whose choice therefore is also confused, so I choose a guru. I can choose him only according to my confusion; hence he, like the political leader, is confused.

为了解决这种冲突，我必须自己理解它， 这意味着我必须在关系中意识到自己。 要去意识，不需要上师。 如果我不知道我自己，上师有什么用？ 正如政治领袖是由那些处于困惑中的人所选择的，因此他们的选择也是困惑的， 同样，我选择一位上师。 我只能根据我的困惑来选择他；因此，他和政治领导人一样，迷惑了。

What is important is not who is right - whether I am right or whether those are right who say a guru is necessary; to find out why you need a guru is important. Gurus exist for exploitation of various kinds, but that is irrelevant. It gives you satisfaction if someone tells you how you are progressing, but to find out why you need a guru - there lies the key.

重要的不是谁对谁错 —— 我是对的，还是那些说上师是必要的人是对的； 找出你为什么需要一位上师，才是重要的。 上师的存在是为了各种剥削，但那是不相干的。 如果有人告诉你你的进步情况，它会让你感到满意， 但是，要找出为什么你需要一位上师 —— 这是关键所在。

Another can point out the way but you have to do all the work, even if you have a guru. Because you do not want to face that, you shift the responsibility to the guru. The guru becomes useless when there is a particle of self-knowledge. No guru, no book or scripture, can give you self-knowledge: it comes when you are aware of yourself in relationship.

别人可以指出方向 但你必须做所有的工作，即使你有一个上师。 因为你不想面对那个，所以你把责任转移到上师身上。 当有一丝自我认识时，上师就变得毫无用处。 没有上师，没有书籍或经文，可以给你自知之明： 当你在关系中意识到你自己，它就会到来。

To be, is to be related; not to understand relationship is misery, strife. Not to be aware of your relationship to property is one of the causes of confusion. If you do not know your right relationship to property there is bound to be conflict, which increases the conflict in society. If you do not understand the relationship between yourself and your wife, between yourself and your child, how can another resolve the conflict arising out of that relationship? Similarly with ideas, beliefs and so on.

活着，就是相关；不理解关系，就是悲苦，纷争。 没有意识到您与财物的关系是造成困惑的原因之一。 如果您不知道自己与财物的正确关系 必然会有冲突，这就增加了社会的冲突。 如果你不理解你和妻子之间的关系，你和你的孩子之间的关系， 另一个人如何解决这种由关系引起的冲突？ 想法、信仰等也是如此。

Being confused in your relationship with people, with property, with ideas, you seek a guru. If he is a real guru, he will tell you to understand yourself. You are the source of all misunderstanding and confusion; and you can resolve that conflict only when you understand yourself in relationship.

在与人、与财物、与思想的关系中，你感到困惑，你寻求一位导师。 如果他是一位真正的上师，他会告诉你要理解你自己。 你是一切误解和困惑的根源； 只有当你在关系中理解你自己时，你才能解决这种冲突。

You cannot find truth through anybody else. How can you? Truth is not something static; it has no fixed abode; it is not an end, a goal. On the contrary, it is living, dynamic, alert, alive. How can it be an end? If truth is a fixed point it is no longer truth; it is then a mere opinion. Truth is the unknown, and a mind that is seeking truth will never find it, for mind is made up of the known, it is the result of the past, the outcome of time - which you can observe for yourself.

你无法通过其他人找到真理。你怎么能呢？ 真理不是一成不变的东西；它没有固定的住所；它不是一个目的，也不是某种目标。 相反，它是活的、动态的、警觉的、生动的。 它怎么可能是一个目的呢？ 如果真理是一个固定点，它就不再是真理；它只是一个观点。 真理是未知的，一颗追求真理的头脑永远不会找到它， 因为头脑是由已知组成的，它是过去的结果，时间的结果。 —— 你可以亲自去观察。

Mind is the instrument of the known, hence it cannot find the unknown; it can only move from the known to the known. When the mind seeks truth, the truth it has read about in books, that `truth' is self-projected; for then the mind is merely in pursuit of the known, a more satisfactory known than the previous one. When the mind seeks truth, it is seeking its own self-projection, not truth. After all, an ideal is self-projected; it is fictitious, unreal. What is real is what is, not the opposite. But a mind that is seeking reality, seeking God, is seeking the known.

头脑是已知的工具，因此它找不到未知； 它只能从已知移动到已知。 当头脑寻求真理，它在书中读到的真理时，“真理”是自我投射的； 因为那时，头脑只是在追求已知的，一种比前一个更令人满意的已知。 当头脑寻求真理时，它是在寻求自己的投影，而不是真理。 毕竟，理想是自我投射出来的；它是虚构的，不真实的。 真实的就是‘什么是’，而不是这种对立。 但是一个寻求现实、寻求上帝的头脑，正在寻求已知。

When you think of God, your God is the projection of your own thought, the result of social influences. You can think only of the known; you cannot think of the unknown, you cannot concentrate on truth. The moment you think of the unknown, it is merely the self-projected known. God or truth cannot be thought about. If you think about it, it is not truth.

当你想上帝时，你的上帝是你自己思想的投影，是社会影响的结果。 你只能想到已知的； 你不能思考未知，你不能专注于真理。 当你想到未知的那一刻，它只是自我投射出来的已知。 上帝或真理是不能思考的。 如果你考虑它，它就不是真理。

Truth cannot be sought: it comes to you. You can go only after what is known. When the mind is not tortured by the known, by the effects of the known, then only can truth reveal itself. Truth is in every leaf, in every tear; it is to be known from moment to moment. No one can lead you to truth; and if anyone leads you, it can only be to the known.

真理不能被寻求：它来到你身边。 你只能跟随在已知的屁股后面。 当头脑没有被这个已知，被已知的效果所折磨时， 只有那样，真理才能显露。 真理在每一片叶子里，在每一滴眼泪里；每时每刻都需要被认识。 没有人能带领你走向真理；如果有人带领你，只能引向已知。

Truth can only come to the mind that is empty of the known. It comes in a state in which the known is absent, not functioning. The mind is the warehouse of the known, the residue of the known; for the mind to be in that state in which the unknown comes into being, it must be aware of itself, of its previous experiences, the conscious as well as the unconscious, of its responses, reactions, and structure. When there is complete self-knowledge, then there is the ending of the known, then the mind is completely empty of the known. It is only then that truth can come to you uninvited.

真理只能出现在没有已知事物的头脑中。 它处于一种已知不存在，没有运作的状态。 头脑是已知事物的仓库，是已知事物的残余； 为了让头脑处于未知产生的状态， 它必须意识到它自己，意识到它以前的体验， 有意的和无意的，它的回应、反应和结构。 当有了完全的自我认识， 那就是已知事物的尽头，那么，头脑中完全清空已知事物。 只有这样，真理才能不请自来，来到你身边。

Truth does not belong to you or to me. You cannot worship it. The moment it is known, it is unreal. The symbol is not real, the image is not real; but when there is the understanding of self, the cessation of self, then eternity comes into being.

真理不属于你或我。 你不能崇拜它。 一旦知道它的那一刻，它就是不真实的。 符号不是真实的，图像不是真实的； 但是，当有对自我的理解，自我的消逝，那么，永恒就会出现。

Question: I gather definitely from you that learning and knowledge are impediments. To what are they impediments?

问：我从你那里肯定地收集到，学习和知识是障碍。 它们对什么构成障碍？

Krishnamurti: Obviously knowledge and learning are an impediment to the understanding of the new, the timeless, the eternal. Developing a perfect technique does not make you creative. You may know how to paint marvellously, you may have the technique; but you may not be a creative painter. You may know how to write poems, technically most perfect; but you may not be a poet. To be a poet implies, does it not?, being capable of receiving the new; to be sensitive enough to respond to something new, fresh.

克里希那穆提：显然，知识和学习是一个障碍 对于理解新的，无时间的，永恒的。 开发完美的技术，并不能让你有创造力。 你可能知道如何奇妙地绘画，你可能有技巧；但你可能不是一个有创造力的画家。 你可能知道如何写诗，技术上最完美；但你可能不是诗人。 成为诗人意味着，不是吗？，有能力接受新的； 对新的、鲜活的事物，有足够的灵敏去回应。

With most of us knowledge or learning has become an addiction and we think that through knowing we shall be creative. A mind that is crowded, encased in facts, in knowledge - is it capable of receiving something new, sudden, spontaneous? If your mind is crowded with the known, is there any space in it to receive something that is of the unknown? Surely knowledge is always of the known; and with the known we are trying to understand the unknown, something which is beyond measure.

对于我们大多数人来说，知识或学习已经成为一种毒瘾， 我们认为通过认识，我们就应该有创造力。 一个拥挤的头脑，被事实，被知识包裹 —— 它还能接收新的、突然的、自发的？ 如果你的头脑中挤满了已知的事物， 里面还有空间来接收未知的事物吗？ 当然，知识总是已知的； 拿着已知，我们试图理解这未知，这无法衡量的。

Take, for example, a very ordinary thing that happens to most of us: those who are religious - whatever that word may mean for the moment - try to imagine what God is or try to think about what God is. They have read innumerable books, they have read about the experiences of the various saints, the Masters, the Mahatma and all the rest, and they try to imagine or try to feel what the experience of another is; that is with the known you try to approach the unknown.

举个例子，发生在我们大多数人身上的一件非常普通的事情： 那些有宗教信仰的人 —— 不管这个词暂时意味着什么 —— 试着想象上帝是什么，或者试着思考上帝是什么。 他们读过无数的书，他们读过各种圣徒的体验， 大师、圣雄和其他所有人，他们试图想象或试图感受另一个人的体验是什么； 那就是拿着已知，你试图接近未知。

Can you do it? Can you think of something that is not knowable? You can only think of something that you know. But there is this extraordinary perversion taking place in the world at the present time: we think we shall understand if we have more information, more books, more facts, more printed matter.

你能做到吗？ 你能想到一些不可知的事情吗？你只能想到你知道的东西。 然而，此时此刻，这个世界上正在发生的就是这种极其变态的事情： 我们认为，如果我们有更多的信息，更多的书籍，更多的事实，更多的印刷品，我们就会明白。

To be aware of something that is not the projection of the known, there must be the elimination, through the understanding, of the process of the known. Why is it that the mind clings always to the known? Is it not because the mind is constantly seeking certainty, security? Its very nature is fixed in the known, in time; how can such a mind, whose very foundation is based on the past, on time, experience the timeless?

要意识都某些不是已知事物的投影， 必须通过理解来消除已知的过程。 为什么头脑总是执着于已知的事物？ 难道不是因为头脑不断地寻求确定性、安全感吗？ 它的根扎在已知中，扎在时间中； 这个扎根于过去、时间的头脑，怎么能体验到无时间的呢？

it may conceive, formulate, picture the unknown, but that is all absurd. The unknown can come into being only when the known is understood, dissolved, put aside. That is extremely difficult, because the moment you have an experience of anything, the mind translates it into the terms of the known and reduces it to the past. I do not know if you have noticed that every experience is immediately translated into the known, given a name, tabulated and recorded. So the movement of the known is knowledge, and obviously such knowledge, learning, is a hindrance.

它可以构思、制定、描绘未知，但那一切是荒谬的。 只有当已知被理解、消解、搁置一边时，未知才能产生。 这是非常困难的，因为当你对任何一个事物有体验的那一刻， 头脑将它转化为已知事物的术语，并将其简化为过去。 我不知道你有没有注意到 每一个体验都会立即翻译成已知的，取一个名字，制成表格和并记录下来。 因此，已知事物的运动就是知识，显然这种知识，这种学习，是一种障碍。

Suppose you had never read a book, religious or psychological, and you had to find the meaning, the significance of life. How would you set about it? Suppose there were no Masters, no religious organizations, no Buddha, no Christ, and you had to begin from the beginning. How would you set about it?

假设你从未读过一本宗教或心理学的书， 而你必须找到生命的内涵、意义。 你会如何着手？ 假设没有师父，没有宗教组织，没有佛陀，没有基督，你必须从头开始。 你会如何着手？

First, you would have to understand your process of thinking, would you not? - and not project yourself, your thoughts, into the future and create a God which pleases you; that would be too childish. So first you would have to understand the process of your thinking. That is the only way to discover anything new, is it not?

首先，你必须理解你的思考过程，不是吗？ —— 不要将你自己，你的思想投射到未来，创造一个讨你喜悦的上帝； 那太幼稚了。 所以，首先你必须理解你的思考过程。 那是发现任何新事物的唯一方法，不是吗？

When we say that learning or knowledge is an impediment, a hindrance, we are not including technical knowledge - how to drive a car, how to run machinery - or the efficiency which such knowledge brings. We have in mind quite a different thing: that sense of creative happiness which no amount of knowledge or learning will bring.

当我们说学习或知识是一种妨碍，一种阻拦时， 我们没有包括技术知识 —— 如何驾驶汽车，如何操作机械 —— 或者由这种知识所带来的效果。 我们想到的是完全不同的东西： 那种创造性快乐的感觉，那种再多的知识或学习也不会带来的东西。

To be creative in the truest sense of that word is to be free of the past from moment to moment, because it is the past that is continually shadowing the present. Merely to cling to information, to the experiences of others, to what someone has said, however great, and try to approximate your action to that - all that is knowledge, is it not?

真正意义上的创造性，就是每时每刻摆脱过去， 因为是过去不断笼罩着现在。 仅仅执着于信息，执着于他人的体验，执着于某人所说的话，无论多么伟大， 并试着把你的行动近似于那个 —— 那一切都是知识，它不是吗？

But to discover anything new you must start on your own; you must start on a journey completely denuded, especially of knowledge, because it is very easy, through knowledge and belief, to have experiences; but those experiences are merely the products of self-projection and therefore utterly unreal, false.

但是要发现任何新事物，您必须从你自己开始； 你必须开始一个完全被剥夺的旅程，尤其是知识， 因为通过知识和信仰，很容易获得体验； 但这些体验只是自我投射的产物，因此完全不真实，虚幻。

If you are to discover for yourself what is the new, it is no good carrying the burden of the old, especially knowledge - the knowledge of another, however great. You use knowledge as a means of self-protection, security, and you want to be quite sure that you have the same experiences as the Buddha or the Christ or X. But a man who is protecting himself constantly through knowledge is obviously not a truth-seeker.

如果你要自己发现什么是新的， 背负着旧的重担，尤其是知识 —— 别人的知识，无论多么伟大，都是不好的。 你用知识作为自我保护、安全、 你要非常确定你和佛陀、基督或某某有相同的体验。 但是，一个不断通过知识来保护自己的人，显然不是一个寻求真理的人。

For the discovery of truth there is no path. You must enter the uncharted sea - which is not depressing, which is not being adventurous. When you want to find something new, when you are experimenting with anything, your mind has to be very quiet, has it not?

因为真理的发现，没有道路。 你必须进入未知的大海 —— 这不是令人沮丧的，它不是冒险。 当你想发现新的东西时，当你在尝试任何东西时， 你的头脑必须非常安静，它不是吗？

If your mind is crowded, filled with facts, knowledge, they act as an impediment to the new; the difficulty is for most of us that the mind has become so important, so predominantly significant, that it interferes constantly with anything that may be new, with anything that may exist simultaneously with the known. Thus knowledge and learning are impediments for those who would seek, for those who would try to understand that which is timeless.

如果你的头脑很拥挤，充满了事实和知识，对于这个新的，它们就会成为障碍； 困难在于，对于我们大多数人来说，头脑变得如此重要，如此有意义， 它不断地干扰着任何可能是新的、可能与已知同时存在的东西。 因此，对于那些寻求的人，对于那些试图理解无时间的人， 知识和学习都是妨害。

Question: All religions have insisted on some kind of self-discipline to moderate the instincts of the brute in man. Through self-discipline the saints and mystics have asserted that they have attained godhood. Now you seem to imply that such disciplines are a hindrance to the realization of God. I am confused. Who is right in this matter?

问：所有宗教都坚持通过某种自律，可减轻人类的野蛮本能。 通过自律，圣徒和神秘主义者断言他们已经达到了神性。 现在，你似乎暗示这样的戒律是实现上帝的障碍。 我很困惑。在这件事上，谁是对的？

Krishnamurti: It is not a question of who is right in this matter. What is important is to find out the truth of the matter for ourselves - not according to a particular saint or to a person who comes from India or from some other place, the more exotic the better.

克里希那穆提：在这件事上，不是谁对谁错的问题。 重要的是自己找出事情的真相 —— 不是根据某个特定的圣人 或者对于来自印度或其他地方的人来说，越异国情调越好。

You are caught between these two: someone says discipline, another says no discipline. Generally what happens is that you choose what is more convenient, what is more satisfying: you like the man, his looks, his personal idiosyncrasies, his personal favouritism and all the rest of it. Putting all that aside, let us examine this question directly and find out the truth of the matter for ourselves. In this question a great deal is implied and we have to approach it very cautiously and tentatively.

你被夹在这两者之间：有人说纪律，另一个人说没有纪律。 一般来说，你选择更方便，更令人满意的： 你喜欢这个人，他的外表，他的个人特质，他个人的偏爱等等。 撇开这一切不谈，让我们直接研究这个问题 并亲自找出事情的真相。 在这个问题上，暗示着很多东西， 我们必须非常谨慎和试探性地处理它。

Most of us want someone in authority to tell us what to do. We look for a direction in conduct, because our instinct is to be safe, not to suffer more. Someone is said to have realized happiness, bliss or what you will and we hope that he will tell us what to do to arrive there. That is what we want: we want that same happiness, that same inward quietness, joy; and in this mad world of confusion we want someone to tell us what to do. That is really the basic instinct with most of us and, according to that instinct, we pattern our action.

我们大多数人都希望权威人士告诉我们该怎么做。 我们寻找指引的方向，因为我们的本能是安全，而不是遭受更多的苦难。 据说有人实现了快乐，至乐，随你怎样称呼， 我们希望他会告诉我们该怎么做才能到达那里。 这就是我们想要的：我们想要同样的快乐，同样的内在宁静，快乐； 在这个混乱的疯狂的世界中，我们希望有人告诉我们该怎么做。 这确实是我们大多数人的基本本能，根据这种本能，我们塑造我们的行动。

Is God, is that highest thing, unnameable and not to be measured by words - is that come by through discipline, through following a particular pattern of action? We want to arrive at a particular goal, particular end, and we think that by practice, by discipline, by suppressing or releasing, sublimating or substituting, we shall be able to find that which we are seeking.

那位上帝，那个最高的东西，不可命名的，不能用言语来衡量的 —— 那位能通过纪律，通过遵循特定的行动模式来实现吗？ 我们想要达到一个特定的目标，特定的目的， 我们认为，通过实践，通过纪律，通过压制或释放，升华或替代， 我们将能够找到我们所寻求的。

What is implied in discipline? Why do we discipline ourselves, if we do? Can discipline and intelligence go together? Most people feel that we must, through some kind of discipline, subjugate or control the brute, the ugly thing in us. Is that brute, that ugly thing, controllable through discipline? What do we mean by discipline?

纪律中隐含着什么？ 如果我们这样做，我们为什么要自律？纪律和智慧可以并存吗？ 大多数人觉得我们必须， 通过某种纪律，征服或控制我们内心的野蛮，丑陋的东西。 那个畜生，那个丑陋的东西，可以通过纪律来控制吗？ 我们所说的戒律是什么意思？

A course of action which promises a reward, a course of action which, if pursued, will give us what we want - it may be positive or negative; a pattern of conduct which, if practised diligently, sedulously, very, very ardently, will give me in the end what I want.

承诺奖励的行为方案， 一个行为方案，如果追求，将给我们我们想要的东西 —— 它可能是积极的，也可能是消极的； 一种行为模式，如果勤奋地，艰苦地，非常，非常热切地实践， 最终会给我我想要的东西。

It may be painful but I am willing to go through it to get that. The self, which is aggressive, selfish, hypocritical, anxious, fearful - you know, all of it - that self, which is the cause of the brute in us, we want to transform, subjugate, destroy. How is this to be done?

它可能很痛苦，但我愿意通过它来得到那。 这位自我，具有攻击性、自私、虚伪、焦虑、恐惧 —— 你知道，所有这一切 —— 那个自我，是我们野蛮的原因， 我们要改造、征服、毁灭。 如何做到这一点？

Is it to be done through discipline, or through an intelligent understanding of the past of the self, what the self is, how it comes into being, and so on? Shall we destroy the brute in man through compulsion or through intelligence? Is intelligence a matter of discipline?

难道要通过纪律来完成吗？ 还是通过理智的理解自我的过去，自我是什么，它是如何产生的，等等？ 我们应该通过强迫还是通过智慧来摧毁人类的野蛮？ 智慧是关于纪律的事情吗？

Let us for the time being forget what the saints and all the rest of the people have said; let us go into the matter for ourselves, as though we were for the first time looking at this problem; then we may have something creative at the end of it, not just quotations of what other people have said, which is all so vain and useless.

让我们暂时忘记圣徒和所有其他人所说的话； 让我们自己讨论这个问题，就好像我们第一次看到这个问题一样； 那么我们最后可能会有一些创造性的东西， 不仅仅是引用别人说过的话，那一切都那么的徒劳无益。

We first say that in us there is conflict, the black against the white, greed against non-greed and so on. I am greedy, which creates pain; to be rid of that greed, I must discipline myself. That is I must resist any form of conflict which gives me pain, which in this case I call greed. I then say it is antisocial, it is unethical, it is not saintly and so on and so on - the various social-religious reasons we give for resisting it. Is greed destroyed or put away from us through compulsion?

我们首先说，在我们的里面有冲突，黑与白，贪婪与非贪婪等等。 我贪婪，这会产生痛苦；为了摆脱这种贪婪，我必须约束自己。 那就是我必须抵制任何形式的冲突，这些冲突会给我带来痛苦，这种情景被我称之为贪婪。 然后我说它是反社会的，它是不道德的，它不是圣洁的等等 —— 我们为抵制它而给出的各种社会的、宗教的理由。 通过强迫，贪婪是被摧毁了，还是远离了我们？

First, let us examine the process involved in suppression, in compulsion, in putting it away, resisting. What happens when you do that, when you resist greed? What is the thing that is resisting greed? That is the first question, isn't it? Why do you resist greed and who is the entity that says, "I must be free of greed"? The entity that says, "I must be free" is also greed, is he not?

首先，让我们考察一下压抑、强迫、收起、反抗的过程。 当你这样做时，当你抵制贪婪时会发生什么？ 抵抗贪婪的这位是什么样子的？ 这是第一个问题，不是吗？ 你为什么抵制贪婪，谁在说“我必须摆脱贪婪”？ 说“我必须自由”的实体也是贪婪的，他不是吗？

Up to now, greed has paid him, but now it is painful; therefore he says, "I must get rid of it". The motive to get rid of it is still a process of greed, because he is wanting to be something which he is not. Non-greed is now profitable, so I am pursuing non-greed; but the motive, the intention, is still to be something, to be non-greedy - which is still greed, surely; which is again a negative form of the emphasis on the `me'.

到现在为止，贪婪已经付给他了，但是他痛苦；因此他说，“我必须摆脱它”。 摆脱它的动机仍然是一个贪婪的过程，因为他想成为他不是的样子。 不贪婪现在是有利可图的，所以我追求的是不贪婪； 但这种动机，这个意图，仍然是占据某种东西，占据不贪婪 —— 这当然还是贪婪； 这又是一种以否定的形式对“我”的强调。

We find that being greedy is painful, for various reasons which are obvious. So long as we enjoy it, so long as it pays us to be greedy, there is no problem. Society encourages us in different ways to be greedy; so do religions encourage us in different ways. So long as it is profitable, so long as it is not painful, we pursue it but the moment it becomes painful we want to resist it.

我们发现贪婪是痛苦的，原因有很多，都是显而易见的。 只要我们享受它，只要贪婪能带来好处，它就没有问题。 社会以不同的方式鼓励我们贪婪；宗教也以不同的方式鼓励我们。 只要它是有利可图的，只要不痛苦，我们就去追求它 但是一旦它变得痛苦，我们就想抵制它。

That resistance is what we call discipline against greed; but are we free from greed through resistance, through sublimation, through suppression? Any act on the part of the `me' who wants to be free from greed is still greed. Therefore any action, any response on my part with regard to greed, is obviously not the solution.

那种抵制就是我们所说的对贪婪的纪律； 但是，我们是否通过抵抗，升华，通过压制而摆脱了贪婪？ “我”想要摆脱贪婪的任何行为仍然是贪婪。 因此，我对贪婪的任何行动、任何反应，显然都不是解决办法。

First of all there must be a quiet mind, an undisturbed mind, to understand anything, especially something which I do not know, something which my mind cannot fathom - which, this questioner says, is God. To understand anything, any intricate problem - of life or relationship, in fact any problem - there must be a certain quiet depth to the mind.

首先必须有一个安静的头脑，一个不受干扰的头脑， 理解任何事情，尤其是我不知道的事情， 我的头脑无法探测的东西 —— 也就是这个提问者说的上帝。 理解任何事情，任何错综复杂的问题 —— 生命或关系，事实上，任何问题 —— 头脑必须有一定的安静深度。

Is that quiet depth come by through any form of compulsion? The superficial mind may compel itself, make itself quiet; but surely such quietness is the quietness of decay, death. It is not capable of adaptability, pliability, sensitivity. So resistance is not the way.

这种安静的深度是通过任何形式的强迫而来的吗？ 肤浅的头脑可能会强迫自己，使自己安静； 但这种安静肯定是腐朽的、死寂的安静。 它不具备适应性、柔韧性、敏感性。 所以抵抗不是办法。

Now to see that requires intelligence, doesn't it? To see that the mind is made dull by compulsion is already the beginning of intelligence, isn't it? - to see that discipline is merely conformity to a pattern of action through fear. That is what is implied in disciplining ourselves: we are afraid of not getting what we want. What happens when you discipline the mind, when you discipline your being?

现在，看到这需要智慧，不是吗？ 看到头脑被强迫而变得迟钝，已经是智慧的开始，不是吗？ —— 看到纪律只是通过恐惧而遵守一种行为模式。 那就是自律的含义：我们害怕得不到我们想要的。 当你管教你的头脑，当你约束你自身时，在发生什么？

It becomes very hard, doesn't it; unpliable, not quick, not adjustable. Don't you know people who have disciplined themselves - if there are such people? The result is obviously a process of decay. There is an inward conflict which is put away, hidden away; but it is there, burning.

它变得非常硬，不是吗；不灵活，不迅捷，不协调。 你不认识那些自律的人吗 —— 如果有这样的人？ 结果显然是一个腐朽的过程。 有一种内在的冲突被收起来，被隐藏起来；但它还在那里，燃烧着。

Thus we see that discipline, which is resistance, merely creates a habit and habit obviously cannot be productive of intelligence: habit never is, practice never is. You may become very clever with your fingers by practising the piano all day, making something with your hands; but intelligence is demanded to direct the hands and we are now inquiring into that intelligence.

因此，我们看到，纪律，即抵抗，只是创造了一种习惯。 习惯显然不能产生智慧： 习惯从来不是，实践从来不是。 通过整天练习钢琴，用手做一些东西，你可能会变得非常聪明； 但是需要智慧来指导双手，我们现在正在调查这种智慧。

You see somebody whom you consider happy or as having realized, and he does certain things; you, wanting that happiness, imitate him. This imitation is called discipline, isn't it? We imitate in order to receive what another has; we copy in order to be happy, which you think he is. Is happiness found through discipline? By practising a certain rule, by practising a certain discipline, a mode of conduct, are you ever free? Surely there must be freedom for discovery, must there not?

你看到一个你认为快乐或已经实现的人，他做了某些事情； 你，想要那种快乐，模仿他。这种模仿叫做纪律，不是吗？ 我们模仿是为了接受别人所拥有的； 我们复制是为了快乐，你认为他是。 快乐是通过纪律找到的吗？ 通过实践某种规则，通过实践某种纪律，一种行为方式，你还能自由吗？ 当然，必须有发现的自由，不是吗？

If you would discover anything, you must be free inwardly, which is obvious. Are you free by shaping your mind in a particular way which you call discipline? Obviously you are not. You are merely a repetitive machine, resisting according to a certain conclusion, according to a certain mode of conduct.

如果你要发现什么，你必须有内在的自由，这是显而易见的。 通过以一种你称之为纪律的特定方式来塑造你的头脑，你就有自由了吗？ 显然你没有。 你只是一个重复的机器， 根据某种结论，根据某种行为模式而进行抵抗。

Freedom cannot come through discipline. Freedom can only come into being with intelligence; and that intelligence is awakened, or you have that intelligence, the moment you see that any form of compulsion denies freedom, inwardly or outwardly.

自由不能通过纪律来实现。 自由只能通过智慧而产生； 当你看到任何形式的强迫，无论是内在的还是外在的，都拒绝自由的那一刻， 那个智慧就被唤醒了，或者你有那个智慧。

The first requirement, not as a discipline, is obviously freedom; only virtue gives this freedom. Greed is confusion; anger is confusion; bitterness is confusion. When you see that, obviously you are free of them; you do not resist them. but you see that only in freedom can you discover and that any form of compulsion is not freedom, and therefore there is no discovery.

第一个要求，不是作为一条纪律，显然，就是自由； 只有美德才能给予这种自由。 贪婪是困惑；愤怒是困惑；苦涩是困惑。 当你看到这一点时，显然你已经摆脱了它们；你不抗拒他们。 但是你看，只有在自由中你才能发现，任何形式的强迫都是不自由的， 因此没有发现。

What virtue does is to give you freedom. The unvirtuous person is a confused person; in confusion, how can you discover anything? How can you? Thus virtue is not the end product of a discipline, but virtue is freedom and freedom cannot come through any action which is not virtuous, which is not true in itself.

美德的作用是给你自由。 没有美德的人是糊涂的人；在困惑中，你怎么能发现任何东西？ 你能吗？ 因此，美德不是纪律的最终产物， 但美德就是自由，自由不能通过任何不是美德的行为来实现，这本身是不真实的。

Our difficulty is that most of us have read so much, most of us have superficially followed so many disciplines - getting up every morning at a certain hour, sitting in a certain posture, trying to hold our minds in a certain way - you know, practise, practise, discipline, because you have been told that if you do these things for a number of years you will have God at the end of it. I may put it crudely, but that is the basis of our thinking. Surely God doesn't come so easily as all that? God is not a mere marketable thing: I do this and you give me that.

我们的困难在于，我们大多数人都读过这么多书， 我们大多数人都肤浅地遵循了这么多纪律。 —— 每天早上在某个时间起床，以某种姿势坐着，试图以某种方式保持我们的头脑 —— 你知道，练习，训练，守戒律， 因为你被告知，如果你做这么做上几年，你最终会实现上帝。 我说得可能很粗略，但这是我们思考的基础。 上帝肯定不会那么容易就来访，对吗？ 上帝可不是超市的商品：我做这个，你给我那个。

Most of us are so conditioned by external influences, by religious doctrines, beliefs, and by our own inward demand to arrive at something, to gain something, that it is very difficult for us to think of this problem anew without thinking in terms of discipline. First we must see very clearly the implications of discipline, how it narrows down the mind, limits the mind, compels the mind to a particular action, through our desire, through influence and all the rest of it; a conditioned mind, however `virtuous' that conditioning, cannot possibly be free and therefore cannot understand reality.

我们大多数人都受到外部影响的制约， 通过宗教教义、信仰和我们自己内在的要求来达成某事，获得某事， 如果不从纪律的角度思考，我们很难重新思考这个问题。 首先，我们必须非常清楚地看到纪律的含义， 它如何缩小头脑，限制头脑，迫使头脑采取特定的行动， 通过我们的欲望，通过影响和其他一切； 一个受限的头脑，无论这种限制多么有“美德”，都不可能是自由的。 因此无法理解现实。

God, reality or what you will - the name doesn't matter - can come into being only when there is freedom, and there is no freedom where there is compulsion, positive or negative, through fear. There is no freedom if you are seeking an end, for you are tied to that end. You may be free from the past but the future holds you, and that is not freedom.

上帝，现实或你喜欢的称呼 —— 这个名字并不重要 —— 只有在自由的时候才能出现， 哪里没有自由，哪里就有强迫，无论是积极的还是消极的，通过恐惧。 如果你在寻求一个目的，就没有自由，因为你被那个目的绑住了。 你可能从过去中解脱出来，但未来却抓住了你，而那不是自由。

It is only in freedom that one can discover anything: new idea, a new feeling, a new perception. Any form of discipline which is based on compulsion denies that freedom whether political or religious; and since discipline, which is conformity to an action with an end in view, is binding, the mind can never be free. It can function only within that groove, like a gramophone record.

只有在自由中，一个人才能发现任何东西： 新的想法，新的感觉，新的感知。 任何形式的基于强迫的纪律都拒绝这种自由，无论是政治自由，还是宗教自由； 既然纪律是服从有目的的行动，是有约束力的，所以头脑永远不可能是自由的。 它只能在那个凹槽内发挥作用，就像留声机唱片一样。

Thus, through practice, through habit, through cultivation of a pattern, the mind only achieves what it has in view. Therefore it is not free; therefore it cannot realize that which is immeasurable. To be aware of that whole process - why you are constantly disciplining yourself to public opinion; to certain saints; the whole business of conforming to opinion, whether of a saint or of a neighbour, it is all the same - to be aware of this whole conformity through practice, through subtle ways of submitting yourself, of denying, asserting, suppressing, sublimating, all implying conformity to a pattern: this is already the beginning of freedom, from which there is a virtue.

因此，通过实践，通过习惯，通过一种模式的培养， 头脑只会获得它所想见的东西。 因此，它不是自由的；因此，它无法意识那不可估量的东西。 要意识到整个过程 —— 为什么在公众舆论面前，某些圣人面前，你不断地自律； 服从观念，无论是圣人的还是邻居的，这一切事情都是一路货色 —— 意识到这种服从的整体：通过实践， 通过微妙的方式屈服你自己，通过拒绝、断言、压制、升华， 都意味着服从一种模式： 这已经是自由的开始，从中有一种美德。

Virtue surely is not the cultivation of a particular idea, Non-greed, for instance, if pursued as an end is no longer virtue, is it? That is if you are conscious that you are non-greedy, are you virtuous? That is what we are doing through discipline.

美德肯定不是特定想法的培养，比如，不贪婪， 如果作为一个目的而取追求，就不再是美德，它是吗？ 也就是说，如果你意识到自己是不贪婪的，你有美德吗？ 那就是我们通过纪律所做的。

Discipline, conformity, practice, only give emphasis to self-consciousness as being something. The mind practises non-greed and therefore it is not free from its own consciousness as being non-greedy; therefore, it is not really non-greedy. It has merely taken on a new cloak which it calls non-greed.

纪律、服从、实践，只是在强调自我意识，我是某某人物。 头脑在实践不贪婪， 因此它没有脱离它所拥有的意识，这个不贪婪的意识； 因此，它并不是真正的不贪婪。 它只是披上了一件新的外衣，它称之为不贪婪。

We can see the total process of all this: the motivation, the desire for an end, the conformity to a pattern, the desire to be secure in pursuing a pattern - all this is merely the moving from the known to the known, always within the limits of the mind's own self-enclosing process.

我们可以看到这一切的整个过程： 这种动机、这种对目的的欲望、对模式的服从，这种通过追求某个模式而想要安全的欲望 —— 所有这一切都只是从已知到已知的移动， 总是在头脑自身的封闭过程的范围内。

To see all this, to be aware of it, is the beginning of intelligence, and intelligence is neither virtuous nor non-virtuous, it cannot be fitted into a pattern as virtue or non-virtue. Intelligence brings freedom, which is not licentiousness, not disorder. Without this intelligence there can be no virtue; virtue gives freedom and in freedom there comes into being reality. If you see the whole process totally, in its entirety, then you will find there is no conflict.

看到这一切，意识到这一切，是智慧的开始， 智慧既不是有美德的，也不是没有美德的， 它不能被拟合为美德或非美德的模式。 智慧带来自由，不是放荡，不是无序。 没有这种智慧，就没有美德； 美德给予自由，在自由中产生现实。 如果你完整地看到整个过程，在它的整体中，那么你就会发现没有冲突。

It is because we are in conflict and because we want to escape from that conflict that we resort to various forms of disciplines, denials and adjustments. When we see what is the process of conflict there is no question of discipline, because then we understand from moment to moment the ways of conflict.

这是因为我们处于冲突之中 因为我们想摆脱这种冲突， 我们才诉诸各种形式的纪律、否认和调整。 当我们看到冲突的过程是什么时，就没有纪律问题， 因为那时我们时时刻刻都理解冲突的方式。

That requires great alertness, watching yourself all the time; the curious part of it is that although you may not be watchful all the time there is a recording process going on inwardly, once the intention is there - the sensitivity, the inner sensitivity, is taking the picture all the time, so that the inner will project that picture the moment you are quiet.

那需要高度的警觉性，时刻注意你自己； 其中有令人奇怪的方面，虽然你可能不是一直保持警惕 一旦意图在那儿，就有一个向内进行的记录过程 —— 这种敏感，这种内在的灵敏，一直在拍照， 因此，内在的意愿就会在你安静的那一刻投射出那幅画面。

Therefore, it is not a question of discipline. Sensitivity can never come into being through compulsion. You may compel a child to do something, put him in a corner, and he may be quiet; but inwardly he is probably seething, looking out of the window, doing something to get away. That is what we are still doing. So the question of discipline and of who is right and who is wrong can be solved only by yourself.

因此，它不是纪律问题。 敏感永远不可能通过强迫而产生。 你可以强迫孩子做某事，把他冷落在角落里，他可能会安静； 但内心深处，他可能正在沸腾，盯着窗外，做某些事情来逃避。 那就是我们仍在做的事情。 因此，纪律和谁对谁错的问题只能靠你自己来解决。

Also, you see, we are afraid to go wrong because we want to be a success. Fear is at the bottom of the desire to be disciplined, but the unknown cannot be caught in the net of discipline. On the contrary, the unknown must have freedom and not the pattern of your mind. That is why the tranquillity of the mind is essential.

另外，你看，我们害怕出错，因为我们想成功。 恐惧是想要被纪律约束的欲望的老底，但未知不能被困在纪律的网中。 相反，未知必须拥有自由，而不是你头脑的模式。 那就是为什么头脑的宁静是必不可少的。

When the mind is conscious that it is tranquil, it is no longer tranquil; when the mind is conscious that it is non-greedy, free from greed, it recognizes itself in the new robe of non-greed but that is not tranquillity. That is why one must also understand the problem in this question of the person who controls and that which is controlled. They are not separate phenomena but a joint phenomenon: the controller and the controlled are one.

当这颗头脑意识到它是宁静的时候，它就不再是宁静的； 当头脑意识到它是不贪婪的，摆脱了贪婪时， 它穿着不贪婪的新袍子认出了它自己，但那不是宁静。 这就是为什么一个人还必须理解这个问题： 控制者和被控制者的问题。 他们不是单独的现象，而是一种联合现象：控制者和被控制者是一体的。

Question: I am beginning to realize that I am very lonely. What am I to do?

问：我开始意识到我很孤独。我该怎么办？

Krishnamurti: The questioner wants to know why he feels loneliness? Do you know what loneliness means and are you aware of it? I doubt it very much, because we have smothered ourselves in activities, in books, in relationships, in ideas which really prevent us from being aware of loneliness. What do we mean by loneliness?

克里希那穆提：提问者想知道他为什么感到孤独？ 你知道孤独意味着什么吗，你知道吗？ 我非常怀疑， 因为我们把自己窒息在活动中，在书本上，在人际关系中， 这些想法确实阻止我们意识到孤独。 我们所说的孤独是什么意思？

it is a sense of being empty, of having nothing, of being extraordinarily uncertain, with no anchorage anywhere. It is not despair, nor hopelessness. but a sense of void, a sense of emptiness and a sense of frustration. I am sure we have all felt it, the happy and the unhappy, the very, very active and those who are addicted to knowledge. They all know this. It is the sense of real inexhaustible pain, a pain that cannot be covered up, though we do try to cover it up.

它是一种空虚，一无所有，非常不确定，没有任何地方可停泊的感觉。 它不是绝望，也不是失望。 而是一种空无，一种空虚和挫败感。 我相信我们都感受过它， 那些快乐和不快乐的，非常非常活跃的和沉迷于知识的人。 他们都知道这感觉。 它是一种真正的无穷无尽的痛苦感，一种无法掩盖的痛苦，尽管我们确实试图掩盖它。

Let us approach this problem again to see what is actually taking place, to see what you do when you feel lonely. You try to escape from your feeling of loneliness, you try to get on with a book, you follow some leader, or you go to a cinema, or you become socially very, very active, or you go and worship and pray, or you paint, or you write a poem about loneliness. That is what is actually taking place.

让我们再次处理这个问题 看看实际在发生什么，看看当你感到孤独时，你在做什么。 你试图逃离你的孤独感， 你试着读一本书，你跟随某个领导者，或者你去电影院， 或者你在社交上变得非常非常活跃，或者你去敬拜和祈祷， 或者你画画，或者你写一首关于孤独的诗。 那就是正在发生的实际情况。

Becoming aware of loneliness, the pain of it, the extraordinary and fathomless fear of it, you seek an escape and that escape becomes more important and therefore your activities, your knowledge, your gods, your radios all become important, don't they?

意识到孤独，它的痛苦，对它的非凡和深不可测的恐惧， 你寻求逃避，而逃避变得越来越重要 因此，你的活动，你的知识，你的神灵，你的收音机都变得很重要，它们不重要吗？

When you give importance to secondary values, they lead you to misery and chaos; the secondary values are inevitably the sensate values; and modern civilization based on these gives you this escape - escape through your job, your family, your name, your studies, through painting etc; all our culture is based on that escape. Our civilization is founded on it and that is a fact.

当你重视次要的价值时，它们会导致你走向痛苦和混乱； 次要的价值必然就是感官价值； 而现代文明以此为根基，为你提供了这种逃避 —— 通过你的工作，你的家庭，你的名字，你的研究，绘画等等来逃跑； 我们所有的文化都是基于这种逃避。 我们的文明是建立在这上面，那是事实。

Have you ever tried to be alone? When you do try, you will feel how extraordinarily difficult it is and how extraordinarily intelligent we must be to be alone, because the mind will not let us be alone. The mind becomes restless, it busies itself with escapes, so what are we doing?

你有没有试过独处？ 你可以尝试，你会感觉它很困难。 我们需要多么的智慧才能独处， 因为头脑不会让我们独立。 头脑变得焦躁不安，它忙于逃避，那么，我们在干什么？

We are trying to fill this extraordinary void with the known. We discover how to be active, how to be social; we know how to study, how to turn on the radio. We are filling that thing which we do not know with the things we know. We try to fill that emptiness with various kinds of knowledge, relationship or things. Is that not so? That is our process, that is our existence.

我们正试图用已知来填补这非凡的空无。 我们发现如何活跃，如何社交； 我们知道如何研究，如何打开收音机。 我们正在用我们所知道的事情来填充我们不知道的。 我们试图用各种知识、关系或事物来填补这种空虚。 难道不是那样吗？ 那就是我们的过程，是我们的存在。

Now when you realize what you are doing, do you still think you can fill that void? You have tried every means of filling this void of loneliness. Have you succeeded in filling it? You have tried cinemas and you did not succeed and therefore you go after your gurus and your books or you become very active socially.

现在，当你意识到自己在做什么时，你仍然认为你可以填补那种空无吗？ 你已经尝试了一切方法来填补这个孤独的空无。你成功地填满了吗？ 你试过电影院，但没有成功 因此，你追随你的上师和你的书，或者你在社交上变得非常活跃。

Have you succeeded in filling it or have you merely covered it up? If you have merely covered it up, it is still there; therefore it will come back. If you are able to escape altogether then you are locked up in an asylum or you become very, very dull. That is what is happening in the world.

您是成功地填充了它，还是仅仅掩盖着它？ 如果你只是掩盖着它，它仍然存在；因此它会回来。 如果你能够完全逃脱，那么你就会被关在庇护所里，或者你变得非常非常沉闷。 那就是这个世界上正在发生的。

Can this emptiness, this void, be filled? If not, can we run away from it, escape from it? If we have experienced and found one escape to be of no value, are not all other escapes therefore of no value? It does not matter whether you fill the emptiness with this or with that. So-called meditation is also an escape. It does not matter much that you change your way of escape.

这种虚无，这种空无，能被填补吗？ 如果不能，我们能逃跑，能避免它吗？ 如果我们体验到并发现逃避是没有价值的， 那么，所有其他的逃避方式都是没有用吗？ 你用这个或那个来填补空虚并不重要。 所谓的冥想也是一种逃避。不论你怎么改变逃跑方式，都不重要。

How then will you find what to do about this loneliness? You can only find what to do when you have stopped escaping. Is that not so? When you are willing to face what is - which means you must not turn on the radio, which means you must turn your back to civilization - then that loneliness comes to an end, because it is completely transformed. It is no longer loneliness.

那么，你如何处理这种孤独，能找到办法吗？ 只有当你停止逃跑时，你才能去找。 难道不是这样吗？ 当你愿意面对什么是 —— 这意味着您不打开收音机， 这意味着你必须背弃文明 —— 那么，孤独就走到了尽头，因为它完全转变了。 它不再是孤独。

If you understand what is then what is is the real. Because the mind is continuously avoiding, escaping, refusing to see what is it creates its own hindrances. Because we have so many hindrances that are preventing us from seeing, we do not understand what is and therefore we are getting away from reality; all these hindrances have been created by the mind in order not to see what is.

如果你理解‘什么是’，那么什么是真实的。 因为头脑不断地回避、逃避、拒绝去看什么是，所以它创造出它自己的障碍。 因为我们有太多的障碍阻止着我们去看， 我们不理解什么是，因此我们在远离现实； 所有这些障碍都是由头脑创造的，以便于不看什么是。

To see what is not only requires a great deal of capacity and awareness of action but it also means turning your back on everything that you have built up, your bank account, your name and everything that we call civilization. When you see what is, you will find how loneliness is transformed.

要看到什么是，不仅需要很大的能力和意识 而且也意味着背弃一切 —— 这些所建立的，你的银行账户，你的名字和我们称之为文明的一切东西。 当你看到什么是，你会发现孤独是如何被转变的。

Question: What is the significance of pain and suffering?

问题：痛和苦难的意义是什么？

Krishnamurti: When you suffer, when you have pain, what is the significance of it? Physical pain has one significance but probably we mean psychological pain and sufferings which has quite a different significance at different levels. What is the significance of suffering? Why do you want to find the significance of suffering? Not that it has no significance - we are going to find out. But why do you want to find it? Why do you want to find out why you suffer?

克里希那穆提：当你受苦受难时，当你痛时，它的意义是什么？ 身体上的痛有一种意义，但可能 我们指的是心理上的痛和苦难，它们具有完全不同的意义，处于不同的层面上。 苦难的意义何在？ 你为什么要找到苦难的意义？ 并不是说它没有意义 —— 我们将找出答案。 但是你为什么要找它呢？ 你为什么想找出你为什么受苦受难？

When you put that question to yourself, "Why do I suffer?", and are looking for the cause of sufferings are you not escaping from suffering? When I seek the significance of sufferings am I not avoidings, evading it, running away from it?

当你问自己这个问题时，“我为什么有苦难？ 寻找苦难的原因，你不是正在逃避苦难吗？ 当我寻求苦难的意义时，我不是在避免、逃跑、逃避它吗？

The fact is, I am suffering; but the moment I bring the mind to operate upon it and say, "Now, why?", I have already diluted the intensity of suffering. In other words, we want suffering to be diluted, alleviated, put away, explained away. Surely that doesn't give an understanding of suffering. If I am free from that desire to run away from its then I begin to understand what is the content of suffering.

这个事实是，我受苦受难； 但是当我开动脑筋，在它上面动手脚，并说：“为什么？” 我已经淡化了苦难的强度。 换句话说，我们希望苦难被淡化、减轻、收抛、解释。 当然，那并不能理解苦难。 如果我摆脱了逃避它的欲望， 那么我就会开始理解苦难的内容是什么。

What is suffering? A disturbances isn't it?, at different levels - at the physical and at the different levels of the subconscious. It is an acute form of disturbance which I don't like. My son is dead. I have built round him all my hopes or round my daughter, my husband, what you will. I have enshrined him with all the things I wanted him to be and I have kept him as my companion - you know, all that sort of thing. Suddenly he is gone. So there is a disturbance, isn't there? That disturbance I call suffering.

什么是苦难？是不是一种麻烦？ 在不同的层面上 —— 在身体和潜意识的不同层面上。 它是一种我不喜欢的、一种令人不安的尖锐形式。 我儿子死了。 我把所有的希望都寄托在他身上，或者我的女儿，我的丈夫，或者某某人的身上。 我把他当成心肝宝贝，希望他成龙成凤，永远留在我身边 —— 你知道，所有那些事情。 突然间，他走了。因此，产生了不安，不是吗？ 这种不安我称之为苦难。

If I don't like that suffering, then I say "Why am I suffering?", "I loved him so much", "He was this", "I had that". I try to escape in words, in labels, in beliefs, as most of us do. They act as a narcotic. If I do not do that, what happens?

如果我不喜欢这种苦难， 那么我说“我为什么受苦？”，“我非常爱他”，“他是这么”，“我有那个”。 我试图用语言、标签、信仰来逃避，就像我们大多数人一样。它们像麻醉剂一样。 如果我不这样做，会发生什么？

I am simply aware of suffering. I don't condemn it, I don't justify it - I am suffering. Then I can follow its movements can't I? Then I can follow the whole content of what it means - `I follow' in the sense of trying to understand something.

我只是意识到苦难。 我不谴责它，我不为它辩护 —— 我在受苦。 那么，我就可以跟踪它的动向，不是吗？ 然后我可以跟踪它的全部内容 —— “我跟踪”的意思是指：试图理解某个东西。

What does it mean? What is it that is suffering? Not why there is suffering, not what is the cause of suffering, but what is actually happening? I do not know if you see the difference. When I am simply aware of suffering, not as apart from me, not as an observer watching suffering - it is part of me, that is the whole of me is suffering. Then I am able to follow its movement, see where it leads. Surely if I do that it opens up, does it not?

它是什么意思？苦难是什么？ 不是为什么会受苦？不是苦难的原因是什么，而是实际在发生什么。 我不知道你是否看到这种区别。 当我只是意识到苦难时，它不是与我分离的，我不是作为一个观察者在观察苦难 —— 它是我的一部分，是我的全部在受苦。 然后我能够跟随它的移动，看它走向何方。 当然，如果我这样做，它就会打开，不是吗？

Then I see that I have laid emphasis on the `me' - not on the person whom I love. He only acted to cover me from my misery, from my loneliness, from my misfortune. As I am not something, I hoped he would be that. That has gone; I am left, I am lost, I am lonely. Without him, I am nothing. So I cry. It is not that he is gone but that I am left. I am alone. To come to that point is very difficult, isn't it?

然后，我发现我被引到了核心处：这位“我” —— 而不是所我爱的人。 他只是为了遮盖我的悲惨，我的孤独，我的不幸。 因为我不是什么人物，我希望他会是那样的人。 但那已经过去了；我被抛弃了，我感到迷茫，孤独。 没有了他，我什么都不是。所以我哭泣。 不是他走了，而是我被离弃了。只剩下我一个人。 要走到这一步是非常困难的，不是吗？

It is difficult really to recognize it and not merely say, "I am alone and how am I to get rid of that loneliness?", which is another form of escape, but to be conscious of it, to remain with it, to see its movement. I am only taking this as an example. Gradually, if I allow it to unfold, to open up, I see that I am suffering because I am lost; I am being called to give my attention to something which I am not willing to look at; something is being forced upon me which I am reluctant to see and to understand.

真的很难认识到它， 而不仅仅是说，“我孤独，我该如何摆脱那种孤独？” 这是另一种形式的逃避，而是要意识到它，与它在一起，看它的动向。 我只是举个例子。 渐渐地，如果我允许它展开，敞开，我看到我因为迷茫而受苦； 我被召唤去关注我不愿意去看的东西； 有些东西被强加在我身上，我不愿意去看，去理解。

There are innumerable people to help me to escape - thousands of so-called religious people, with their beliefs and dogmas, hopes and fantasies - "it is karma, it is God's will" - you know, all giving me a way out. But if I can stay with it and not put it away from me, not try to circumscribe or deny it, then what happens? What is the state of my mind when it is thus following the movement of suffering?

有无数人帮我逃避 —— 成千上万的所谓的宗教人士，他们的信仰和教条，希望和幻想 —— “它是业力，是上帝的旨意” —— 你知道，都给我指出一条逃跑线路。 但是，如果我与它在一起，不把它从我身边抛开，不试图去限制或拒绝它，那么，发生了什么？ 当我的头脑这么跟随着苦难的运动时，它的状态是什么？

Is suffering merely a word, or an actuality? If it is an actuality and not just a word, then the word has no meaning now, so there is merely the feeling of intense pain. With regard to what?

苦难只是一个词，还是一个现实？ 如果它是一个现实而不仅仅是一个词，那么这个词现在就没有意义了， 所以只有剧烈的痛苦感。 这种感觉与什么相关？

With regard to an image, to an experience, to something which you have or have not. If you have it, you call it pleasure; if you haven't it is pain. Therefore pain, sorrow, is in relationship to something. Is that something merely a verbalization, or an actuality?

与一个形像，一个体验，一个你拥有或没有的东西。 如果你拥有它，你称之为快乐；如果你没有，它就是痛苦。 因此，痛苦，悲伤，与某个东西相关。 那仅仅是口头上的，还是一个现实？

That is when sorrow exists, it exists only in relationship to something. it cannot exist by itself - even as fear cannot exist by itself but only in relationship to something: to an individual, to an incident, to a feeling. Now, you are fully aware of the suffering. Is that suffering apart from you and therefore you are merely the observer who perceives the suffering, or is that suffering you?

那就是当悲伤存在的时候，它之所以存在，只是由于与某个东西相关联。 它不能单独存在 —— 即使恐惧也不能单独存在，而只可能存在于与某个东西的关联中： 与某个人，某件事情，某种感觉相关。 现在，你完全意识到苦难。 那么，这种苦难是与你分开的，因此你仅仅是感知苦难的观察者吗， 或者，苦难就是你？

When there is no observer who is suffering, is the suffering different from you? You are the suffering, are you not? You are not apart from the pain - you are the pain. What happens? There is no labelling, there is no giving it a name and thereby brushing it aside - you are merely that pain, that feeling, that sense of agony.

当没有受苦的观察者时，苦难与你不同吗？ 你在受苦，你没有吗？你与痛苦没有被分裂 —— 你就是这个痛苦。 在发生什么？ 没有标签，没有给它一个名字，从而把它放在一边 —— 你只是那种痛苦，那种感觉，那种痛楚的感觉。

When you are that, what happens? When you do not name it, when there is no fear with regard to it, is the centre related to it? If the centre is related to it, then it is afraid of it. Then it must act and do something about it. But if the centre is that, then what do you do?

当你是那时，在发生什么？ 当你不说出它的名字，当对它没有恐惧时，还有与之相关的中心吗？ 如果中心与它有关，那么它就害怕它。 然后它必须采取行动并对此做点什么。 但如果中心就是那，那么你该怎么办？

There is nothing to be done, is there? If you are that and you are not accepting it, not labelling it, not pushing it aside - if you are that thing, what happens? Do you say you suffer then? Surely, a fundamental transformation has taken place. Then there is no longer "I suffer", because there is no centre to suffer and the centre suffers because we have never examined what the centre is.

没有什么可做的，有吗？ 如果你就是那，你不接受它，不给它贴标签，不把它推到一边 —— 如果你是那个东西，发生什么？说你在受苦？ 当然，一种根本性的转变发生了。 然后就不再有「我受苦」，因为没有中心去受苦， 而这个中心之所以受苦，是因为我们从未审视过这个中心是什么。

We just live from word to word, from reaction to reaction. We never say, "Let me see what that thing is that suffers", You cannot see by enforcement, by discipline. You must look with interest, with spontaneous comprehension. Then you will see that the thing we call suffering, pain, the thing that we avoid, and the discipline, have all gone.

我们只是肤浅的活着，从一个字到另一个字，从一个反应到另一个反应。 我们从不说，“让我看看那个在受苦的东西是什么”， 你无法通过强迫、通过纪律去看。 你必须带着兴趣，带着自发的理解去看。 然后你会看到，我们称之为苦难、痛苦、那个我们回避的东西，以及这种纪律，都消失了。

As long as I have no relationship to the thing as outside me, the problem is not; the moment I establish a relationship with it outside me, the problem is. As long as I treat suffering as something outside - I suffer because I lost my brother, because I have no money, because of this or that - I establish a relationship to it and that relationship is fictitious.

只要我和外在的东西没有关系，问题就没有； 当我把它放在外面，使它与我产生关联的那一刻，问题就来了。 只要我把苦难当作外在的东西 —— 我受苦，因为我失去了我的兄弟，因为我没有钱，因为这个或那个 —— 我与它建立了一种关系，而这种关系是虚构的。

But if I am that thing, if I see the fact, then the whole thing is transformed, it all has a different meaning. Then there is full attention, integrated attention and that which is completely regarded is understood and dissolved, and so there is no fear and therefore the word `sorrow' is non-existent.

但是如果我就是那个东西，如果我看到这个事实， 那么整个事情就别转变，它就具有了不同的意义。 然后有完整的注意，综合的注意 那被完全关注的东西被理解和消融， 因此，没有了恐惧，因此「悲伤」这个词不存在了。